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i hope your joking by posting this? Well, if not let me make it clear:  Kolll "the german Wunderkind" was quite a talented german player who started playing in 2007 (iirc) and quickly became very good. It's common knowledge he hit B- in his first or second ICCup season [which meant way more than it does today; for a couple of reasons im not gonna delve into] and he was able to beat some of the Ger-A Players by 2009, namely GoOdy and Horror in the old German King of the Hill edition.
To get to the point: even tho he was a talented foreigner; it would be very nonsensical to link his game vs Stork as an example or "proof" why scouts are valid in the MU. Stork is an S class progamer. By comparison you could say Scouts are valid because a player like  Bonyth can defeat D+ zergs on ICCup with it. That's just wrong. In Broodwar, you can defeat players who are way worse simply by superior mechanics, execution and understanding of the gameflow, despite your opening being very sub-par.
But i think you are trolling.. so i just wanted to make it clear in case it wasn't obvious to some people. (;
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Protoss obviously strongest race, they can have 400/400 army > everything. Also S-class players playing WoW and mobile games... nerf please
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On May 16 2017 20:27 Essbee wrote:
The game was considered to be balanced for almost 2 decades and now that the remaster has been announced, then MAGICALLY bw is supposedly not balanced and terran is super op.
Every single person I've seen saying that terran is op and bw is imbalanced are people who registered on TL post-2010.
If balance do happen, it's gonna kill the remaster and everyone is just going to go back to 1.16, and honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit.
Hi.
Though to be fair, I'm not saying Terran is OP, I'm saying Zerg has problems against Terran and Protoss has problems against Zerg. So I suppose you could be technically right.
But people saying stuff like "BW balance is perfect, why are we discussing this?" are as bad as people yelling "Terran OP! Stupid game!" Check the stats. It's not balanced. The balance is very good, but there are clear problems. I've said before, if there was an easy way to solve the problems with maps, it probably would've been done already.
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To neobowman
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/237_Fighting Spirit
The thing is not that there are no map but who would wanna watch BW ONLY on the top 3 balanced maps? We love some variety which promotes old builds getting revisited and stuff like that... Hunters is one of the most unbalanced maps in the history of the game and yet everybody loves playing it...
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Fighting spirit is ridiculously Terran favoured against Zerg in the modern meta. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_Spirit
I would definitely not want to watch BW on only 3 maps. Outsider is terrible for Protoss but it's super fun to watch. So then what are we left with? If we are to maintain our current standards for mapmaking, then the only recourse is actual balance change if we want to improve balance. And I don't think it's possible to make a set of maps that are actually not Z>P and T>Z favoured while simultaneously factoring in TvP balance. At least unless we completely overhaul every standard feature in modern maps or something.
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On May 17 2017 04:22 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2017 20:27 Essbee wrote:
The game was considered to be balanced for almost 2 decades and now that the remaster has been announced, then MAGICALLY bw is supposedly not balanced and terran is super op.
Every single person I've seen saying that terran is op and bw is imbalanced are people who registered on TL post-2010.
If balance do happen, it's gonna kill the remaster and everyone is just going to go back to 1.16, and honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit. Hi. Though to be fair, I'm not saying Terran is OP, I'm saying Zerg has problems against Terran and Protoss has problems against Zerg. So I suppose you could be technically right. But people saying stuff like "BW balance is perfect, why are we discussing this?" are as bad as people yelling "Terran OP! Stupid game!" Check the stats. It's not balanced. The balance is very good, but there are clear problems. I've said before, if there was an easy way to solve the problems with maps, it probably would've been done already.
What problems dude? Look at the great games we've been having. Look at the race distribution this ASL... You just want problems cause your a busy bee or something. Find something else to solve.
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On May 17 2017 05:44 neobowman wrote:Fighting spirit is ridiculously Terran favoured against Zerg in the modern meta. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_SpiritI would definitely not want to watch BW on only 3 maps. Outsider is terrible for Protoss but it's super fun to watch. So then what are we left with? If we are to maintain our current standards for mapmaking, then the only recourse is actual balance change if we want to improve balance. And I don't think it's possible to make a set of maps that are actually not Z>P and T>Z favoured while simultaneously factoring in TvP balance. At least unless we completely overhaul every standard feature in modern maps or something.
You have to realize that we are playing a 2017 meta on old maps.
Fighting spirit came out in 2009.
Circuit breakers came out 2010.
Outsider came out in 2009.
Blue Storm came out in 2007.
Andromeda came out in 2008.
Even Demian and Camelot are not "new". LatiAs uploaded previous versions of these maps to Broodwarmaps.net around 2015-2016. He has stated that some of these maps were made years ago (some of his dating back to 2012, maybe earlier), so who knows how old Demian and Camelot really are.
I think maps definitely have a role (and SHOULD) in curbing some of the more powerful strategies or trends in the meta. I've even posted my thoughts on what map characteristics can affect TvZ balance from a mapmaker's perspective (not here but on BWMN). I'm sure there are others, and we cannot know for sure what they really are unless we try them out on new maps and in the new meta.
But here we are playing on maps that have been around almost a decade.
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On May 17 2017 06:35 dark.matter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2017 04:22 neobowman wrote:On May 16 2017 20:27 Essbee wrote:
The game was considered to be balanced for almost 2 decades and now that the remaster has been announced, then MAGICALLY bw is supposedly not balanced and terran is super op.
Every single person I've seen saying that terran is op and bw is imbalanced are people who registered on TL post-2010.
If balance do happen, it's gonna kill the remaster and everyone is just going to go back to 1.16, and honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit. Hi. Though to be fair, I'm not saying Terran is OP, I'm saying Zerg has problems against Terran and Protoss has problems against Zerg. So I suppose you could be technically right. But people saying stuff like "BW balance is perfect, why are we discussing this?" are as bad as people yelling "Terran OP! Stupid game!" Check the stats. It's not balanced. The balance is very good, but there are clear problems. I've said before, if there was an easy way to solve the problems with maps, it probably would've been done already. What problems dude? Look at the great games we've been having. Look at the race distribution this ASL... You just want problems cause your a busy bee or something. Find something else to solve.
Just because the individual games are good in a single tournament, doesn't mean the matchups are balanced. This IS a problem. Not a giant tumor problem, but a persistent lingering cough type problem. I'm loving the ASL matches but at the same time, I sort of wish Protoss players other than Bisu could play PvZ and that Zergs could at least somewhat consistently secure their third gases without taking huge risks.
On May 17 2017 06:36 JungleTerrain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2017 05:44 neobowman wrote:Fighting spirit is ridiculously Terran favoured against Zerg in the modern meta. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_SpiritI would definitely not want to watch BW on only 3 maps. Outsider is terrible for Protoss but it's super fun to watch. So then what are we left with? If we are to maintain our current standards for mapmaking, then the only recourse is actual balance change if we want to improve balance. And I don't think it's possible to make a set of maps that are actually not Z>P and T>Z favoured while simultaneously factoring in TvP balance. At least unless we completely overhaul every standard feature in modern maps or something. You have to realize that we are playing a 2017 meta on old maps. Fighting spirit came out in 2009. Circuit breakers came out 2010. Outsider came out in 2009. Blue Storm came out in 2007. Andromeda came out in 2008. Even Demian and Camelot are not "new". LatiAs uploaded previous versions of these maps to Broodwarmaps.net around 2015-2016. He has stated that some of these maps were made years ago (some of his dating back to 2012, maybe earlier), so who knows how old Demian and Camelot really are. I think maps definitely have a role (and SHOULD) in curbing some of the more powerful strategies or trends in the meta. I've even posted my thoughts on what map characteristics can affect TvZ balance from a mapmaker's perspective (not here but on BWMN). I'm sure there are others, and we cannot know for sure what they really are unless we try them out on new maps and in the new meta. But here we are playing on maps that have been around almost a decade.
I definitely agree that we need new maps. If Kespa did one thing right, it was regularly rotating new maps into the rotatoin and old maps out. That said, while I'm sure this trend could be mitigated by good mapmaking, I just don't really think it can be completely fixed considering current trends are just an exacerbation of trends that always existed. Just at a much more exaggerated level.
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I made a balanced map very recently called (4)Clay Fields, so perhaps y'all in this thread would be interested in it.
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On May 16 2017 19:01 sCuMBaG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2017 05:10 Bakuryu wrote:
whats the point of biggest range if your units die to manlots and zerglings? whats the point of best defence if you cant attack because zerg uses swarm/lurker or protoss blocks ramp with stasis? whats the point if you have the strongest 200/200 ball when zerg uses their mobility to attack undefended bases and protoss uses recall all over the map?
please stop posting that stupid clickbait video, i already explained what light did good and jaedong did bad the last time the video got posted........
in the end you need to explain what your definition of OP or imba is. for me, this is neither OP or imba.
i hope that 1 day, people will stop the balance whine..... welp, hope dies last.... The balance bitching will only become worse, now that there are potentially lots of SC2 kids playing some BW. But honestly, I'm too old for that shit  As long as I get to play a couple of BW games with my old mates, I don't care.
Of course and they're gonna talk about how we should add +light/+armored damage and all that bullshit or how this should be nerfed etc etc.
A map pool change is what we need more than anything i think
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On May 17 2017 02:25 Cele wrote:i hope your joking by posting this? Well, if not let me make it clear: Kolll "the german Wunderkind" was quite a talented german player who started playing in 2007 (iirc) and quickly became very good. It's common knowledge he hit B- in his first or second ICCup season [which meant way more than it does today; for a couple of reasons im not gonna delve into] and he was able to beat some of the Ger-A Players by 2009, namely GoOdy and Horror in the old German King of the Hill edition. To get to the point: even tho he was a talented foreigner; it would be very nonsensical to link his game vs Stork as an example or "proof" why scouts are valid in the MU. Stork is an S class progamer. By comparison you could say Scouts are valid because a player like Bonyth can defeat D+ zergs on ICCup with it. That's just wrong. In Broodwar, you can defeat players who are way worse simply by superior mechanics, execution and understanding of the gameflow, despite your opening being very sub-par.But i think you are trolling.. so i just wanted to make it clear in case it wasn't obvious to some people. (;
Jangbi did a Scout opening vs a Zerg (Crazy-Hydra iirc) in a Proleague game after winning one his OSLs. Anyway, the exception doesnt disprove the rule.
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I don't know how anyone can deny that Protoss is the weakest race from the highest level of competition.
If in nearly 2 decades we never had a protoss bonjwa or had majority of title winners Terran, then Zerg, and a few sparse Protoss, that should tell you something.
Terran units are the most cost efficient and have longest range (siege tanks) Zerg has trouble with them even with dark swarm in huge numbers, and Protoss upgrades don't hold a candle to how terran mech scales with upgrades. I think they should tone down the upgrades for terran +5 for mech is ridiculous, and make vultures cost more, because 1 unit only costs 75 minerals that could take out much more than it was worth with 3 spider mines.
I wish Bisu would get his protoss progamers and teach them a thing or two and make them represent the protoss race better. It is annoying to see Terran win the titles most of the times.
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I think tanks should be buffed to have 9999 health and fire a nuclear missile.
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If Blizzard is back and is willing to change things with patience, i will humbly propose small micro changes. Like SVC health reduced to 50 hp and Vulture to cost at least 25 gas. Thats it, leave it for a year of testing and see what happens.
Also, its a fact that Zerg on island maps has the slowest time to be able to get transport.
However considering Blizzard's attitude to SC in the past, its probable that no changes will be made in spite that i think small micro changes could actually improve the experience.
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On May 17 2017 09:11 ninazerg wrote:
I think tanks should be buffed to have 9999 health and fire a nuclear missile.
Nina, come on. You're literally shitposting. This is the type of attitude I really dislike seeing. It's belittling the people who are proposing balance ideas. I'm fine if you disagree with balance changes but this is just as annoying as people yelling "Terran OP impossible to beat!"
On May 17 2017 10:52 SeAy wrote:
If Blizzard is back and is willing to change things with patience, i will humbly propose small micro changes. Like SVC health reduced to 50 hp and Vulture to cost at least 25 gas. Thats it, leave it for a year of testing and see what happens.
Also, its a fact that Zerg on island maps has the slowest time to be able to get transport.
However considering Blizzard's attitude to SC in the past, its probable that no changes will be made in spite that i think small micro changes could actually improve the experience.
Even those changes seem extreme to me. SCV health is vital for alot of rushes and you can't change vultures cost (especially adding gas) without huge ramifications. As always I'm a proponent of really tiny changes like +3 seconds on medic build time or +5 health on corsairs. Better to change not enough than too much.
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On May 17 2017 11:03 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2017 09:11 ninazerg wrote:
I think tanks should be buffed to have 9999 health and fire a nuclear missile. Nina, come on. You're literally shitposting. This is the type of attitude I really dislike seeing. It's belittling the people who are proposing balance ideas. I'm fine if you disagree with balance changes but this is just as annoying as people yelling "Terran OP impossible to beat!" Show nested quote +On May 17 2017 10:52 SeAy wrote:
If Blizzard is back and is willing to change things with patience, i will humbly propose small micro changes. Like SVC health reduced to 50 hp and Vulture to cost at least 25 gas. Thats it, leave it for a year of testing and see what happens.
Also, its a fact that Zerg on island maps has the slowest time to be able to get transport.
However considering Blizzard's attitude to SC in the past, its probable that no changes will be made in spite that i think small micro changes could actually improve the experience.
Even those changes seem extreme to me. SCV health is vital for alot of rushes and you can't change vultures cost (especially adding gas) without huge ramifications. As always I'm a proponent of really tiny changes like +3 seconds on medic build time or +5 health on corsairs. Better to change not enough than too much.
The point is that balance discussions are ridiculous and usually extremely short sighted. Most terran complainers don't play terran, and don't know how hard it is to deal with things like 2 gate pressure, lurker drops, etc. There is a ton that is OP on other races and cannot be shrugged off for some poorly formed idea that terran OP. It's just idlers riding a hype train. BW has been played professionally for over 15 years without any balance changes and that's the way the majority want to keep it, why is that so hard to understand? And if you can't understand, understand why you get a lot of scoffing and mockery, 15 years, more than half your life most likely. Get a grip people.
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Please guys give up on the fantasy that you are going to make micro tweaks that lead to perfect balance between all the races.We are incredibly blessed to have a game with three asymmetrical races that hasn't had a balance patch in over 15 years has remained this competitive and viable over all the meta shifts and strategies discovered so far. After all this time player skill and then map balance are the most important factors when it comes to deciding who wins a match.
Brood war is unique in this way and I don't want to come into a situation where I'm reading balance patch notes every two weeks to fix stuff someone was whining about on the forums. Just leave the game balance alone.
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Give protoss high templar a speed upgrade. Instead of one of the hardly ever used spells in the templar archives.
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On May 17 2017 11:21 alexpnd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2017 11:03 neobowman wrote:On May 17 2017 09:11 ninazerg wrote:
I think tanks should be buffed to have 9999 health and fire a nuclear missile. Nina, come on. You're literally shitposting. This is the type of attitude I really dislike seeing. It's belittling the people who are proposing balance ideas. I'm fine if you disagree with balance changes but this is just as annoying as people yelling "Terran OP impossible to beat!" On May 17 2017 10:52 SeAy wrote:
If Blizzard is back and is willing to change things with patience, i will humbly propose small micro changes. Like SVC health reduced to 50 hp and Vulture to cost at least 25 gas. Thats it, leave it for a year of testing and see what happens.
Also, its a fact that Zerg on island maps has the slowest time to be able to get transport.
However considering Blizzard's attitude to SC in the past, its probable that no changes will be made in spite that i think small micro changes could actually improve the experience.
Even those changes seem extreme to me. SCV health is vital for alot of rushes and you can't change vultures cost (especially adding gas) without huge ramifications. As always I'm a proponent of really tiny changes like +3 seconds on medic build time or +5 health on corsairs. Better to change not enough than too much. The point is that balance discussions are ridiculous and usually extremely short sighted. Most terran complainers don't play terran, and don't know how hard it is to deal with things like 2 gate pressure, lurker drops, etc. There is a ton that is OP on other races and cannot be shrugged off for some poorly formed idea that terran OP. It's just idlers riding a hype train. BW has been played professionally for over 15 years without any balance changes and that's the way the majority want to keep it, why is that so hard to understand? And if you can't understand, understand why you get a lot of scoffing and mockery, 15 years, more than half your life most likely. Get a grip people.
I don't think anyone denies the difficulty of playing Terran. But this isn't about us. Balance is irrelevant at lower levels. It's the top pro level we're talking about. We're not just counting up things we think are imbalanced. These are statistics. It's not imaginary.
I understand that a lot of people want to keep it that way and I just don't think that's the correct position to take. You want it to stay the way it is because that's the way it's always been. That's not really an argument, just an explanation for a position. I understand it, but doesn't make the disdain for those who suggest otherwise any more right.
On May 17 2017 11:45 CobaltBlu wrote:
Please guys give up on the fantasy that you are going to make micro tweaks that lead to perfect balance between all the races.We are incredibly blessed to have a game with three asymmetrical races that hasn't had a balance patch in over 15 years has remained this competitive and viable over all the meta shifts and strategies discovered so far. After all this time player skill and then map balance are the most important factors when it comes to deciding who wins a match.
Brood war is unique in this way and I don't want to come into a situation where I'm reading balance patch notes every two weeks to fix stuff someone was whining about on the forums. Just leave the game balance alone.
This is the type of "Good enough" type thinking that all this usually boils down to and I just don't agree with it. I'm thinking it's coming from dislike of how SC2 operated with monthly balance patches and I wouldn't want that either. But I don't think that's valid criticism of a small balance tweak after years of the same imbalance trends remaining. Literally every competitive game changes with the times. Chess, Go, literally every sport. No one disagrees that Starcraft is an amazing game. But just because it is, doesn't mean it can't be improved. If I told a professional athelete that they'd lose 5% of their matches, "Just because that's the way the game works", that would be inexcusable. That would be a top priority to fix. Yet when it's suggested in any Brood War thread, it's shot down because people are scared of change.
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On May 16 2017 20:27 Essbee wrote:
The game was considered to be balanced for almost 2 decades and now that the remaster has been announced, then MAGICALLY bw is supposedly not balanced and terran is super op.
Every single person I've seen saying that terran is op and bw is imbalanced are people who registered on TL post-2010.
If balance do happen, it's gonna kill the remaster and everyone is just going to go back to 1.16, and honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit.
Haha lol yeah. But the balance whine was pretty much expected with all these new players.
On May 17 2017 12:09 NerO wrote:
Give protoss high templar a speed upgrade. Instead of one of the hardly ever used spells in the templar archives.
But there is no such thing as "hardly ever used spells in the templar archives" for high templars..
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EPT
