• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:55
CEST 13:55
KST 20:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202532Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder8EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced38BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Classic: "It's a thick wall to break through to become world champ" Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Serral wins EWC 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder Brood War web app to calculate unit interactions
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL] Non-Korean Championship - Final weekend [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 494 users

Brood War balance research? Here is mine... - Page 2

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
tanngard
Profile Joined April 2011
Norway1325 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-15 13:19:18
May 15 2017 13:18 GMT
#21
On May 15 2017 20:35 LaStScan wrote:
I heard a rumor that map testers in the past were BoxeR and Reach only. No zerg tester.
In addition, there was only 1 terran player in top 10 list in 2010. Other terran players couldn't.
Pretty much a lot of terran players learned FlaSh's TvP in the past. There were probably some few cool playstyle players, but FanTaSy was the only one could've come all the way to top list.

FanTaSy's vulture with a dropship play was so insane in the back day.

There was 2-4 terran players in the top 10 kespa rankings in 2010, always. Usually Flash, Fantasy, Light and Sea.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/kespa_ranking.php?section=korean&year=2010&month=12&action=Update
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
May 15 2017 14:24 GMT
#22
On May 15 2017 21:06 Qikz wrote:
That's the problem with this kind of thing as well. Terran could be the worst race, but you might have someone like Flash come along who just beats absolutely everyone and it skews the results.


The problem with this is that you're arbitrarily separating Flash's dominance with the issue of balance. You're saying that he is a complete outlier that is not connected to balance at all.
MiCroLiFe
Profile Joined March 2012
Norway264 Posts
May 15 2017 14:33 GMT
#23
can you do this in sc2 aswell?
Im Terran. Yes i will balance whine somethimes. And thats how we terrans survive, Hoping for balance patches<3
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland560 Posts
May 15 2017 14:34 GMT
#24
http://screenshot.sh/mMDkXHw0kDwVH
CrymeaTerran
Profile Joined May 2017
149 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-15 14:49:07
May 15 2017 14:48 GMT
#25
^ That screenshot, golden. Can confirm
Sziky = Love
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1433 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-15 15:08:50
May 15 2017 14:59 GMT
#26
On May 15 2017 23:33 MiCroLiFe wrote:
can you do this in sc2 aswell?


Yes! If anyone plays SC2 in 10 years I might post something like this about it....

To be fair to SC2 (AND I DONT HAVE TO BE FAIR TO SC2) its a work in progress...
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
May 15 2017 15:20 GMT
#27
Terran has always been the historically best race. I also think Terran is the strongest race at higher levels. It's also true that historically the best Protoss players have struggled to establish an era of dominance, as their counterparts in other races did. There is no protoss Bonjwa. + Show Spoiler +
all Bisu fans like myself can protest here, but the fact remains
In my opinion, protoss ist the most volatile race and the race that rewards very high skill the least.
Broodwar for life!
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-15 15:51:30
May 15 2017 15:49 GMT
#28
There have been a number of threads that try to crunch some numbers. Most of them are pretty boring, but there was one extremely good one that had lots of visual graphs, a lot of theory about why the person thought the numbers worked, how they adjusted based on maps and such, and how the S-class players tended to reverse the trend of P>T>Z>P, but for most other players it was generally true.

Unfortunately it's really pretty hard to find that thread using TL search engine. I can't find the one I'm thinking of, but this one has some daunting numbers No comment on the quality as I haven't read it recently. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/324598-balance-and-bonjwas-a-statistical-analysis

There's also been reports on map balance and other in depth things that I seem to recall went way deeper.

In my personal opinion though, part of the vicarious pleasure of StarCraft is that ever so slight perception of imbalance, which none the less is overcome by the strongest players. It's one of those things where you just think how it mirrors real life being imbalanced, but not hopelessly so.

I also think it's a common enough story that many people choose the 'hard' race on purpose in StarCraft, both as a buffer to their ego when they lose, and as a feeling of triumph when they finally win. I mean, that's the story of almost every Terran. It's just that at the pro level, the story kind of reverses, and the so called easy race of Protoss does not have many golden mouse holders.

You also have to just consider human factors at work, completely outside of racial balance, where tournament organizers try to select a map pool that will give good representation of all races, and maybe favour a race that is falling behind. ie the legend of the fall
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
May 15 2017 18:16 GMT
#29
Here's an interesting discussion to dig up:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/featured/61932-how-zp-cause-t-dominance-math-model
Sweet.
_Animus_
Profile Joined February 2011
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-15 19:29:07
May 15 2017 19:24 GMT
#30
Who doesnt know terran is OP?

Floating command center is huge, not only terran is best at defending, but also can lift his base and save it and then continue on same number of bases, unlike any other race. They have most damage in the game for the less money. They have biggest power and bigest range ground to ground and ground to air and if we include yamato it covers also air to air and air to ground.

On the highest level its the race that have best things in its pocket and when the player use it properly its a dominance over all races.

im posting a great video with all the points discussed in the korean bw community.
Luv ya BroodWar!
Bakuryu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany1065 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-15 20:11:49
May 15 2017 20:10 GMT
#31
whats the point of biggest range if your units die to manlots and zerglings? whats the point of best defence if you cant attack because zerg uses swarm/lurker or protoss blocks ramp with stasis? whats the point if you have the strongest 200/200 ball when zerg uses their mobility to attack undefended bases and protoss uses recall all over the map?

please stop posting that stupid clickbait video, i already explained what light did good and jaedong did bad the last time the video got posted........

in the end you need to explain what your definition of OP or imba is. for me, this is neither OP or imba.

i hope that 1 day, people will stop the balance whine..... welp, hope dies last....
sCuMBaG
Profile Joined August 2006
United Kingdom1144 Posts
May 16 2017 10:01 GMT
#32
On May 16 2017 05:10 Bakuryu wrote:
whats the point of biggest range if your units die to manlots and zerglings? whats the point of best defence if you cant attack because zerg uses swarm/lurker or protoss blocks ramp with stasis? whats the point if you have the strongest 200/200 ball when zerg uses their mobility to attack undefended bases and protoss uses recall all over the map?

please stop posting that stupid clickbait video, i already explained what light did good and jaedong did bad the last time the video got posted........

in the end you need to explain what your definition of OP or imba is. for me, this is neither OP or imba.

i hope that 1 day, people will stop the balance whine..... welp, hope dies last....



The balance bitching will only become worse, now that there are potentially lots of SC2 kids playing some BW.

But honestly, I'm too old for that shit
As long as I get to play a couple of BW games with my old mates, I don't care.
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
May 16 2017 11:27 GMT
#33
The game was considered to be balanced for almost 2 decades and now that the remaster has been announced, then MAGICALLY bw is supposedly not balanced and terran is super op.

Every single person I've seen saying that terran is op and bw is imbalanced are people who registered on TL post-2010.

If balance do happen, it's gonna kill the remaster and everyone is just going to go back to 1.16, and honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit.
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
May 16 2017 11:38 GMT
#34
The game is completely fine, some maps on the other hand...
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
May 16 2017 11:38 GMT
#35
On May 16 2017 20:38 B-royal wrote:
The game is completely fine, some maps on the other hand...


Anyone who has been watching bw for more than a few years should know this.
NasKe_
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil570 Posts
May 16 2017 12:23 GMT
#36
On May 16 2017 20:27 Essbee wrote:
The game was considered to be balanced for almost 2 decades and now that the remaster has been announced, then MAGICALLY bw is supposedly not balanced and terran is super op.

Every single person I've seen saying that terran is op and bw is imbalanced are people who registered on TL post-2010.

If balance do happen, it's gonna kill the remaster and everyone is just going to go back to 1.16, and honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit.


And Blizzard know this. The last thing they want is a big hype about Broodwar, and everyone playing 1.16 instead of buying the remaster.
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-16 14:31:07
May 16 2017 14:30 GMT
#37
Protoss are the worst race because Scouts are not a viable opener ever unlike Mutas in all 3 matchups and Wraiths in 2. Clearly this is the most important and only metric that matters.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
May 16 2017 16:43 GMT
#38
scouts best finisher tho
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
SBL_HOST
Profile Joined August 2016
18 Posts
May 16 2017 16:45 GMT
#39
Just fix dragoon plz blizzard.
Starcraft Broodwar Latino
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1433 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-16 16:54:21
May 16 2017 16:51 GMT
#40
On May 16 2017 23:30 Crisium wrote:
Protoss are the worst race because Scouts are not a viable opener ever unlike Mutas in all 3 matchups and Wraiths in 2. Clearly this is the most important and only metric that matters.


Vs Zerg



Vs Terran

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/1647_Bisu_vs_Hwasin/vod
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 6m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 404
ProTech4
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 30847
Sea 5658
Horang2 3131
Bisu 1487
ggaemo 1081
Jaedong 687
firebathero 631
Larva 509
EffOrt 473
BeSt 461
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 323
Zeus 306
Mini 205
TY 151
Soma 149
Nal_rA 147
ToSsGirL 112
Hyun 92
ZerO 91
Mong 86
PianO 73
Hm[arnc] 68
hero 67
Snow 52
sSak 37
[sc1f]eonzerg 31
sorry 28
Sharp 26
Free 26
Sacsri 24
Rush 22
Movie 20
Icarus 16
yabsab 14
Bale 10
Dota 2
XaKoH 549
qojqva452
XcaliburYe231
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2523
shoxiejesuss700
edward13
Super Smash Bros
Westballz45
Other Games
singsing1906
B2W.Neo805
DeMusliM580
crisheroes372
Lowko219
Happy118
rGuardiaN24
ZerO(Twitch)20
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta16
• iHatsuTV 14
• Light_VIP 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV350
League of Legends
• Jankos565
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
4h 6m
MaNa vs NightPhoenix
ByuN vs YoungYakov
ShoWTimE vs Nicoract
Harstem vs ArT
Korean StarCraft League
15h 6m
CranKy Ducklings
22h 6m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs TBD
WardiTV European League
1d 4h
Shameless vs MaxPax
HeRoMaRinE vs SKillous
Online Event
1d 6h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 22h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs TBD
WardiTV European League
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
CAC 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.