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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On May 21 2017 09:18 duke91 wrote: No need to find any counter to queens. If terran can't win if Z got enough queens, then he deserves to lose. Easy as that. I feel as if it is somewhat comparable to letting a Terran get a huge amount of science vessels, although obviously there are some big differences. In a way, queens are zergs' science vessels :0 | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On May 21 2017 10:34 JungleTerrain wrote: I feel as if it is somewhat comparable to letting a Terran get a huge amount of science vessels, although obviously there are some big differences. In a way, queens are zergs' science vessels :0 Gotta agree with that , I don't see any easy counter to queen, wraiths would be fun to watch but at the same tame awesomely countered by ensare 100%, just as u said, like with vessels for terran I think it's gonna be a more a micromanagment and gameplay issue for each game to see how many queens Z can store and how well he uses them. I can see Emp not working so easly also, zerg can still put queen in the further corner of his map and also spread them 1 epm away from each other, like you may want to do with tanks vs stasis. Standar Queens | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 18 2017 03:37 valaki wrote: This game is a must see. What's your first thought about Queens in ZvT? Sloppy micro? Dying idle queens by goliaths? 10 broodlings on one unit? Forget all that and watch how Larva uses them against Flash. Beautiful. Edit: game starts at 36m30s if the link wouldn't work. Awesome game, 5/5, would watch again.  On May 20 2017 18:13 LocoBolon wrote: No. Units with "Attack move" command (like goliaths in this case) will always attack queens over overlords when both in range. Overlords are sent in the front because broodling spell has insanse range, much bigger than queen's sight range, and u want your queens to get as little near the goliaths as possible. On top of that, he also sent the overlords in early so that he had vision over the targets while he was cloning the queens. Having the queens back in his main base not only makes them safe, it also gives you enough travel time to clone 11 queens without using a billion separate hotkeys. You could see how it was straining his mouse speed to do it, only time in the VOD where I actually saw some misclicks. Although that may just be crappy me not paying enough attention otherwise.  | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
On May 21 2017 10:34 JungleTerrain wrote: I feel as if it is somewhat comparable to letting a Terran get a huge amount of science vessels, although obviously there are some big differences. In a way, queens are zergs' science vessels :0 Best way to counter queens is so switch back to bio. Meta change incoming --> bio to mech and back to bio again :D | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
Just think about it what 8 years ago ppl would have thought about todays ZvT of going absolutely batshit insane compositions and tactics. I wish every terran that kind of despair. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 21 2017 13:24 duke91 wrote: I hope this whole thing become so refined that Terran wont find a solution to this, as well as no terran and even flash or last being unable to break 50 winrate vs Z. I wish every Terran to experience this pain Z players confronted in the past years, where they in the end have to resort to mass medic blind against queens or some bullshit. Just think about it what 8 years ago ppl would have thought about todays ZvT of going absolutely batshit insane compositions and tactics. I wish every terran that kind of despair. Blinding the scouting overlords would actually make it very hard to clone the queens. Also would allow cloaked wraiths to snipe the queens. I so want to see that now. :D | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On May 21 2017 14:39 iamho wrote: As impressive as that game was from Larva, I don't think he would've won with that style on any other ASL map. He gave up map control because of those queens but was able to stay on even bases with Flash because there were so few bases on the map. On a bigger map Flash would've just used his map control to take a bunch more bases and win with overwhelming economic advantage. Flash did this and lost to soulkey because of the superior mobility of zerg + drops on top of the tanks. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On May 21 2017 13:24 duke91 wrote: I hope this whole thing become so refined that Terran wont find a solution to this, as well as no terran and even flash or last being unable to break 50 winrate vs Z. I wish every Terran to experience this pain Z players confronted in the past years, where they in the end have to resort to mass medic blind against queens or some bullshit. Just think about it what 8 years ago ppl would have thought about todays ZvT of going absolutely batshit insane compositions and tactics. I wish every terran that kind of despair. I chuckled at this  well written, sir!  On May 21 2017 12:54 Dante08 wrote: Best way to counter queens is so switch back to bio. Meta change incoming --> bio to mech and back to bio again :D Switching back to bio sounds cool! Zergs would start using Queens to ensnare as they would have nothing else to do with them | ||
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Trillwill
18 Posts
Incredible game vs Flash. Larva's queen use just keeps getting better | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 22 2017 09:59 Shinokuki wrote: Flash looks really frustrated. His pride seems hurt from losing to larva too much. Hope he gains something from this and dominates once again. BTW Does anyone think only z/T are evolving constantly? metawise Flash getting a taste of his own medicine. I want Flash to have that kind of frustration for the next 5 years to come. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On May 22 2017 11:09 duke91 wrote: Flash getting a taste of his own medicine. I want Flash to have that kind of frustration for the next 5 years to come. As much as I love Flash, I don't even get that excited for his games anymore lol. I expect him to win an overwhelming majority of the time, especially in these leagues. Now Jaedong on the other hand... knowing that he was the best Zerg at one point but is struggling right now makes me really want to root for him all the time and see him regain his dominance. If he doesn't I would just feel sad. But what I find most amazing is that the game even in 2017 is experiencing meta changes. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
Larva is 20:26 vs Flash this month so far. This I think gives a lot of Z hope. Last on the other hand is 6:0 vs Effort, and 48:35 vs Larva. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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yewbow
7 Posts
With this new guardian build, Shine is able to get 9 guardians at 10 min mark. At this point, Terran can't get enough wraith to counter this build, so I really want to see how flash reacts to his guardian build. In my opinion, this is the most promising build to replace Savior's 3 hatch muta. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On May 22 2017 15:01 yewbow wrote: I think larva should give a shot to Shine's 3 hatch lurker+hydra+guardian build, as Shine rarely gets a change to play with best Terran players. With this new guardian build, Shine is able to get 9 guardians at 10 min mark. At this point, Terran can't get enough wraith to counter this build, so I really want to see how flash reacts to his guardian build. In my opinion, this is the most promising build to replace Savior's 3 hatch muta. Are you getting this from shines stream or something? 9 guardians is a lot of gas | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
On May 22 2017 15:01 yewbow wrote: I think larva should give a shot to Shine's 3 hatch lurker+hydra+guardian build, as Shine rarely gets a change to play with best Terran players. With this new guardian build, Shine is able to get 9 guardians at 10 min mark. At this point, Terran can't get enough wraith to counter this build, so I really want to see how flash reacts to his guardian build. In my opinion, this is the most promising build to replace Savior's 3 hatch muta. The problem is vs Flash or Last you probably won't be able to sneak your 3rd hatch at a gas like Shine did vs Mong. Having early 3 gas is essential to this build. | ||
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yewbow
7 Posts
On May 22 2017 15:09 JungleTerrain wrote: Are you getting this from shines stream or something? 9 guardians is a lot of gas No. From ASL and KCM team match. You can check And another KCM match May 19, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/KCM_Legend_Match if you can find VOD for this one. Shine beat Mong twice with this build. If you can find the VOD of that KCM match, you'll see that the clock shows at 10:30 shine has 9 guardians. First, he makes an early 3rd base. Instead of using mutas, he uses lurkers to defend. The downside of early 3rd base are 2 folds 1, it's hard to defend it using muta and lings. 2, lurkers can defend it but due to lurkers' bad mobility, it's hard to expand 4rd. Shines' new guardian solves these 2 problems. Guardians can be more aggressive and deal more damage to Terran than lurkers. Because Shine skips muta, he can get to hive pretty early. The early 3rd base also gives him extra gas. That's why he can get 9 guardians so early. Then Shine pushes out with 9 guardians + 12 hydras + 4 or 5 lurkers. At this point, if Terran goes by standard builds, it's impossible to get enough wraiths. With hydras cleaning wraiths, guardians are unstoppable. In that KCM match, Shine was so confident with this build that he even didn't care of losing his main base when he got enough guardians. | ||
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