Starting on September 7th, Day[9] is airing a new show called Let's Learn Starcraft. The purpose is to help bring someone from "zero to hero," from someone who knows little to nothing about StarCraft to someone who can enjoy the game as a regular player and watcher of competitive SC:R.
The show will cover a wide range of topics, from strategy to mechanics to simply covering great games of the past. The first episode will be an in-depth analysis of Stork vs Fantasy, a PvT game from the 2008 Incruit OSL grand finals. This should get new players excited to see where the game can take you if you put some time into it.
Day[9] made a more detailed post on r/Starcraft, outlining the plans for the show going forward. You can read that below: + Show Spoiler [Post from Day9] +
Ahoy /r/Starcraft!
As many of you know, I am over the moon happy that StarCraft: Remastered has released. I grew up playing StarCraft as basically the only thing I did, and now I’m once again BGHing and 1v1ing away! Loads of people are revisiting StarCraft (or even trying for the first time) and, as many reddit posts have noted, the gameplay of the original StarCraft can be a bit daunting.
So, for the next several months, I’m going to be doing a twice weekly show called Let’s Learn Starcraft! The purpose is to help bring someone from “zero to hero,” from someone who knows little to nothing about StarCraft to someone who can enjoy the game as a regular player and watcher of competitive SC:R.
StarCraft is a true challenge, but once you’ve learned enough, the simple act of playing StarCraft feels so good whether you win or lose. I sincerely hope this series can help showcase the joy and beauty of StarCraft
How to Watch
Livestream on Twitch, 5-7pm PDT on Tuesdays and Thursdays
There are three categories of topics that will be covered and shows may be broken into smaller chunks. For example: Zerg Micro Tuesday with four 20-25 minute videos that each focus on a different core zerg unit micro - Mutalisk, Ling/Lurker, Hydralisk, and Defiler
Strategy
How to think about strategy in StarCraft, common builds / compositions in each matchup etc.
What is strategy and how does it tie into execution / mechanics
How to practice
A thorough review of each matchup - common units, strategies, openings, cheeses, and counter cheeses
How to construct a strategy and adjust it over time
How to identify weaknesses and strengths in an opening build order
How to change plans during crisis management
How to scout and what signals to look for
A review of tactics
How tactical considerations can affect game-wide strategies
Mechanics
How to properly macro / micro / manage your base / manage different unit compositions etc.
Small scale unit control (micro)
Mid and large scale unit control
Worker scouting and management
Base management
Hotkey setups and tricks
Mouse and keyboard control
Macro
Building placement tricks
Awesome Matches
Let’s watch amazing games of StarCraft (some old, some new!) to see the glory of competitive Brood War! Huge thanks to OGN for providing these replays.
Stork vs Fantasy PvT Incruit OSL 2008 Finals
Jaedong vs Yellow[ArnC] ZvZ Bacchus OSL 2009 Finals
Iloveoov vs Reach PvT Ever OSL 2004 Semifinals
Movie vs Shine Ever PvZ OSL 2009 Semifinals
Flash vs Fantasy TvT Tving Semifinals
Flash vs Shine TvZ Tving Quarterfinals
Jangbi vs Mini PvP Tving Quarterfinals
And moar!
Any Questions?
Are there any topics you want me to cover? Any question you’d like to ask? Feel free to dump it in this thread. I’ll be back in an hour because I need to drop a friend off at the airport woo!
Quote Day[9]:
StarCraft is a true challenge, but once you’ve learned enough, the simple act of playing StarCraft feels so good whether you win or lose. I sincerely hope this series can help showcase the joy and beauty of StarCraft
.
Preamble: Introduction to Brood War
This video is an unofficial primer for the show Let's Learn Starcraft. In it, Day[9] highlights what may be the most important aspect for you to understand as you begin to learn Brood War: The mechanical difficulty is not a barrier you must overcome so that you may then begin to play the game -- it is the game.
How you deal with that difficulty - how you choose to allocate your APM to do certain things in the game - becomes a big part of Starcraft strategy. Day[9] gives a few examples, and explains how different approaches lead to different styles of play.
In this first episode of Let's Learn Starcraft, Day[9] talks about what's coming up in the show, shows off some build order examples and counter-examples to give people an idea of the multiple ways you can counter what your opponent is doing. This was to prepare everyone for episode 1 - released the same day - which was a fairly deep but newbie-friendly analysis of the Stork vs Fantasy 2008 Incruit Grand Finals.
As new episodes come out, I will post them in a playlist below, adding topics to each one so that it will be easier to find the ones you're looking for. I hope you all tune in to his streams for future episodes!
In case you've missed it, Sean "Day[9]" Plott has talked about his hype for Starcraft: Remastered on his stream lately, and since it's Day[9] talking about Starcraft it's pretty damn good.
First off, he made a rant about what Brood War is and why it's so beautiful. He talked about how the mechanics of Starcraft is what defines the game, that the control limitations are not obstacles to overcome so that you can then play StarCraft, but that these limitations is exactly what StarCraft is. Here's his rant on Brood War if you want to hear it.
Earlier in the same gaming session he talked briefly about his plans for video content surrounding SC: Remastered. It was a sporadic talk since he was playing Hearthstone at the time, but he gets into his general ideas for upcoming content.
SC:R content talk begins at 55:45 (the video should start there when you press play), and continues on and off until his main rant [the one above] begins at 1:10:52.
Out of all the things SC:R is bringing back, Day[9] talking about StarCraft again is one of my favorites. Sean, your content has always been great, and you have always gotten people interested who wouldn't ordinarily understand why Starcraft is so good. You are the man, and I hope you have a lot of fun this summer. <3
Good! I'm looking forward to him making broodwar easily digestible for people who aren't into it, and I hope he doesn't just tailor it towards SC2 players.
The cold hard truth behind everyone that thinks mechanics are mindless, I should be able to beat people with strategy is You Are Not That Smart.
You think because you can tell something is scissors that you should just click the rock button and get an advantage. Everybody else would also click the rock button, you haven't done anything clever or innovative. In fact, within moments of picking up the game everybody knows to look out for scissors so they can respond with rock before they even click find match. You haven't made the game smart, you've made the game dumb.
Broodwar is at its best when it's really hard to tell that person is doing is scissors. And after that it's really hard to figure out which one of your options is rock. Broodwar does this by being punishingly difficult to play. The sheer difficulty and the fact that everybody has difficulties in different areas, because it has a lot of skillsets, is what obfuscates the RPS.
If Broodwar was easier strategy wouldn't get more important. Strategy would stop existing. The thing that would get more important is game balance. What a nightmare.
On April 15 2017 12:00 Lachrymose wrote: The cold hard truth behind everyone that thinks mechanics are mindless, I should be able to beat people with strategy is You Are Not That Smart.
You think because you can tell something is scissors that you should just click the rock button and get an advantage. Everybody else would also click the rock button, you haven't done anything clever or innovative. In fact, within moments of picking up the game everybody knows to look out for scissors so they can respond with rock before they even click find match. You haven't made the game smart, you've made the game dumb.
Broodwar is at its best when it's really hard to tell that person is doing is scissors. And after that it's really hard to figure out which one of your options is rock. Broodwar does this by being punishingly difficult to play. The sheer difficulty and the fact that everybody has difficulties in different areas, because it has a lot of skillsets, is what obfuscates the RPS.
If Broodwar was easier strategy wouldn't get more important. Strategy would stop existing. The thing that would get more important is game balance. What a nightmare.
Isn't that assuming that strategy only functions in a rock/paper/scissors scenario? Perfect information doesn't negate strategy, otherwise games like Chess or Go wouldn't exist. You can create strategy that doesn't depend on a three choice scenario.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
so?
So if it was the "best game ever" he would have not left for sc2, just like me and many others for instance, easy enough for you?
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
so?
So if it was the "best game ever" he would have not left for sc2, just like me and many others for instance, easy enough for you?
I don't remember him burning any bridges when he left.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
so?
So if it was the "best game ever" he would have not left for sc2, just like me and many others for instance, easy enough for you?
That's not a very logical point. It's not like he stopped watching BroodWar either. Even in full SC2 mode, Day9 would still talk about BroodWar being his favorite game and still watching BroodWar games. There are so many mitigating circumstances for any choice someone makes, but more importantly it does not have to be, and never has been, an either/or. He can like both.
On April 15 2017 10:37 Phyanketto wrote: Good! I'm looking forward to him making broodwar easily digestible for people who aren't into it, and I hope he doesn't just tailor it towards SC2 players.
yeah cuz ppl that find SC2 too hard compared to other mainstream games will definitely be convinced to try out BW. your community for sure doesnt want guys that are actually already into RTS. no doubt! /s
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
so?
So if it was the "best game ever" he would have not left for sc2, just like me and many others for instance, easy enough for you?
Were you relying on BW to make a living at that point? This is a honest question because I don't know you. But if not how can you even compare your situation then to his.
Anyways I sincerely hope you guys also dislike players like Jaedong, Stork, Flash, Soulkey and Rain if that's your attitude.
I for one am happy to see Day9 once again be passionate about BW.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
so?
So if it was the "best game ever" he would have not left for sc2, just like me and many others for instance, easy enough for you?
Were you relying on BW to make a living at that point? This is a honest question because I don't know you. But if not how can you even compare your situation then to his.
Anyways I sincerely hope you guys also dislike players like Jaedong, Stork, Flash, Soulkey and Rain if that's your attitude.
I for one am happy to see Day9 once again be passionate about BW.
I don't get that attitude either. For me BW is also the best game ever, but recently I play mostly LoL, because all of my friends moved from BW to another games :/
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
This is a really weird mindset. People, including myself, left Brood war for SC2 not because it was the better game at that specific time, but because it had potential to be something amazing. It had Blizzard backing it up as an esport, it had a ton of new players, it unified pretty much all genres of RTS-players. It was a chance for a fresh start and to build something from the ground up.
I still consider Brood War the best game ever made from an esports perspective. But that doesnt mean no game will ever be able to take its place and I dont get why some people get so over protective about it.
Day9 doing BW content again is only positive for the scene so embrace it rather than being negative about it
While I'm amazed at the amount of practice people put in to do even the most basic of things in Brood War, I do think that 2017 game design has moved well beyond 1998 game design. Sure there are people who like that some games require you to treat them like a second full time job if you want to become even the slightest bit of proficient at them, but for many other people games like Brood War feel like a fight against a horribly outdated UI and pathing engine.
I also don't agree with Day9's football analogy. Everyone knows that in order to play football, one requires a certain level of physical fitness. It's a part of what sports is. However, Day9 completely retrofits the genre Brood War belongs to, saying it's not really a strategy game, but a "real time"-game, even though it has been advertised as an RTS for the past 20 years. If a game is both advertised and regarded as an RTS, people expect the "S" to play a rather significant role.
On April 15 2017 18:52 maartendq wrote: While I'm amazed at the amount of practice people put in to do even the most basic of things in Brood War, I do think that 2017 game design has moved well beyond 1998 game design. Sure there are people who like that some games require you to treat them like a second full time job if you want to become even the slightest bit of proficient at them, but for many other people games like Brood War feel like a fight against a horribly outdated UI and pathing engine.
I also don't agree with Day9's football analogy. Everyone knows that in order to play football, one requires a certain level of physical fitness. It's a part of what sports is. However, Day9 completely retrofits the genre Brood War belongs to, saying it's not really a strategy game, but a "real time"-game, even though it has been advertised as an RTS for the past 20 years. If a game is both advertised and regarded as an RTS, people expect the "S" to play a rather significant role.
Did you watch the whole video? He says that strategy is still significant, except that in BW, the "real time" aspect is more prevalent. He's basically getting at this notion that the game is imperfectly perfect. And honestly, Blizzard never designed the game to play the way that it does. I would say intended game design has little to do with the success of the game. If anything, Brood War's balance and "greatness" is largely accidental. The whole path-finding AI in the game was literally a series of workarounds and shortcuts to get a unit from point A to point B, and this is why the unit behavior is so erratic and unpredictable. I think a good comparison in this regard is Super Smash Bros. Melee. The reason why it is so popular is because of its mechanical depth (and its evolving meta), and it certainly wasn't designed to be that way.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
This is a really weird mindset. People, including myself, left Brood war for SC2 not because it was the better game at that specific time, but because it had potential to be something amazing. It had Blizzard backing it up as an esport, it had a ton of new players, it unified pretty much all genres of RTS-players. It was a chance for a fresh start and to build something from the ground up.
I still consider Brood War the best game ever made from an esports perspective. But that doesnt mean no game will ever be able to take its place and I dont get why some people get so over protective about it.
Day9 doing BW content again is only positive for the scene so embrace it rather than being negative about it
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
I wondered this too. If he really loved BW and didn't have the time or interest in playing LotV, why wasn't he doing Brood War content anyway?
The only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that Day9 makes a ton of money from streaming and doing videos. While I know that a large portion of his audience loves watching him do anything, it's possible that switching to Brood War would detract a lot of viewers who prefer a fun atmosphere with more modern games.
I dunno, I'd still fucking stream BW if I cared that much about it lol.
On April 15 2017 17:43 DickMcFanny wrote: Isn't it so weird when one brother gets all the brains and the other gets all the looks?
You mean Tasteless and his twin brother, Evil Tasteless?
On April 15 2017 18:52 maartendq wrote: While I'm amazed at the amount of practice people put in to do even the most basic of things in Brood War, I do think that 2017 game design has moved well beyond 1998 game design. Sure there are people who like that some games require you to treat them like a second full time job if you want to become even the slightest bit of proficient at them, but for many other people games like Brood War feel like a fight against a horribly outdated UI and pathing engine.
I also don't agree with Day9's football analogy. Everyone knows that in order to play football, one requires a certain level of physical fitness. It's a part of what sports is. However, Day9 completely retrofits the genre Brood War belongs to, saying it's not really a strategy game, but a "real time"-game, even though it has been advertised as an RTS for the past 20 years. If a game is both advertised and regarded as an RTS, people expect the "S" to play a rather significant role.
Watch the video. Strategy plays an extraordinarily huge role in Brood War. As far as game design goes, Brood War is the pinnacle of genius as far as I'm concerned, especially when you get into the specifics of it. If there's a game from 2010+ that ages as well as Brood War, I'll be quite surprised.
Suddenly he's interested in BW again, that's cute . Can I bet his sudden interest will fall down very quickly if his viewerbase doesn't follow ? Better play hearthstone I guess. I don't blame him for going into sc2 but would he come back to bw if there was no hype surrounding the remaster? Does he even watch ASL?
Oh well hopefully he can bring a younger audience to bw ^^
On April 15 2017 19:54 RouaF wrote: Suddenly he's interested in BW again, that's cute . Can I bet his sudden interest will fall down very quickly if his viewerbase doesn't follow ? Better play hearthstone I guess. I don't blame him for going into sc2 but would he come back to bw if there was no hype surrounding the remaster? Does he even watch ASL?
Oh well hopefully he can bring a younger audience to bw ^^
But every other month he his tweeting about bw for the last view years. - - - ...
The video is a love letter to his favorite game.
Hey, i do simracing at the moment and put lots of hours into it, am i still welcome here?
no idea why he didn't elucidate this point but a massive part of what makes the strategy aspect of starcraft is the scarcity of attention/eapm leading to different playstyles. some players will focus less on macro and more on micro, some vice versa, and they'll choose their builds/strategies accordingly. that's why grinding d to a isn't really lame on iccup, because there will be different strategies and levels of players every step of the way. there are 300 apm players in D that can macro very well but have garbage game sense. there are also 100 apm protosses in D that can 2gate and know it well enough to kill A level zergs once in a while..
it becomes even more important at a pro level where the "perfect level of play" is beyond human ability, so players generally have to choose how to allocate their attention, making the games dynamic.. it's one of the massive issues that sc2 had back in WoL when it had potential as an rts, the ceiling wast too low so all players blended into one
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
i went to click the "thank" button but TL doesn't have one
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
True. It is the same stunt Tasteless and Artosis pulled when they started casting Broodwar again. All of the 'celebrities' that were big in broodwar and switched to Sc2 and now switch back have this issue. Many of them said "Broodwar is the greatest game ever" and then "Sc2 is the greatest game ever". Which can be fine, you know? You like Broodwar best and then you switch to the sequel because you like it better. But then coming back to the old game and hyping it again as "best Esports in the history of mankind" or comparable bullshit has to give you the impression that there's some hypocrisy. I had that sentiment very early on with Tastosis after they started casting ASL and i imagine it should be pretty obvious at this point for everybody.
At this point, it's not about grudge or anything for me anymore. I just like to have casters who are sincere in their enthusiasm about the game they cast. Who don't go hyperbole and who don't use the superlative when they don't mean it. I'd be fine with, let's say Tasteless saying" Broodwar is a great game, tho i personally like Game XY more." If that's an honest sentiment, it's more meaningful to me then what they cater to us.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
True. It is the same stunt Tasteless and Artosis pulled when they started casting Broodwar again. All of the 'celebrities' that were big in broodwar and switched to Sc2 and now switch back have this issue. Many of them said "Broodwar is the greatest game ever" and then "Sc2 is the greatest game ever". Which can be fine, you know? You like Broodwar best and then you switch to the sequel because you like it better. But then coming back to the old game and hyping it again as "best Esports in the history of mankind" or comparable bullshit has to give you the impression that there's some hypocrisy. I had that sentiment very early on with Tastosis after they started casting ASL and i imagine it should be pretty obvious at this point for everybody.
At this point, it's not about grudge or anything for me anymore. I just like to have casters who are sincere in their enthusiasm about the game they cast. Who don't go hyperbole and who don't use the superlative when they don't mean it. I'd be fine with, let's say Tasteless saying" Broodwar is a great game, tho i personally like Game XY more." If that's an honest sentiment, it's more meaningful to me then what they cater to us.
I watched the ASL vods a few weeks ago and tbh you can really tell, especially when comparing to Tasteless' casting of SC2 tournaments, that he really has a bigger heart for BroodWar. I've personally barely seen any footage of him actually playing SC2, whereas we at least know he used to compete in BroodWar. My impression is that this is why he seems more knowledgable/passionate about BroodWar, while still doing a good job with SC2.
Artosis on the other hand I believe just loves all things StarCraft, his casting stays pretty much the same.
On April 15 2017 10:37 Phyanketto wrote: Good! I'm looking forward to him making broodwar easily digestible for people who aren't into it, and I hope he doesn't just tailor it towards SC2 players.
yeah cuz ppl that find SC2 too hard compared to other mainstream games will definitely be convinced to try out BW. your community for sure doesnt want guys that are actually already into RTS. no doubt! /s
I mean, look at them now.
Tasteless is more handsome than ever whereas Day9 is basically bald. And isn't Tasteless older? What an unfair distribution of genetic wealth.
On April 15 2017 10:37 Phyanketto wrote: Good! I'm looking forward to him making broodwar easily digestible for people who aren't into it, and I hope he doesn't just tailor it towards SC2 players.
yeah cuz ppl that find SC2 too hard compared to other mainstream games will definitely be convinced to try out BW. your community for sure doesnt want guys that are actually already into RTS. no doubt! /s
I mean, look at them now.
Tasteless is more handsome than ever whereas Day9 is basically bald. And isn't Tasteless older? What an unfair distribution of genetic wealth.
day9 doesn't care that much about he personal looking, meanwhile tasteless is more concern about it.
Its like people arent allowed to like more than one game...day9 did what almost every single bw personality in the scene did, switch to sc2 (even the pros had to follow after blizzard killed competitive bw) hes not just some dude who works an average day job and comes home to play bw or w/e.
The esports that he followed and made content for died for a while and in that time he had followed its predecessor hoping for a new and potentially exciting game with roots from his favourite game. Then i guess he lost interest in sc2 because of w/e reasons and stated that he just wanted to chill and play games on stream with his fanbase.
How is that not completely fine? he even tweeted that he often watched asl and broodwar leagues like the sonic starleague and etc. What did you want him to do, parade around on all social media at the first sign of bw coming back saying thank god i left sc2 i fucken love bw please forgive me if i ever left...like wtf, some of you guys are completely unreasonable. Its fucken day9 he did more for bw than 99% of the people on TL and by a huge margin.
You do not get to go "oh he enjoyed another game for a period of time, thus he can never come back to the game that i play" There shouldnt be any negativity about this.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
True. It is the same stunt Tasteless and Artosis pulled when they started casting Broodwar again. All of the 'celebrities' that were big in broodwar and switched to Sc2 and now switch back have this issue. Many of them said "Broodwar is the greatest game ever" and then "Sc2 is the greatest game ever". Which can be fine, you know? You like Broodwar best and then you switch to the sequel because you like it better. But then coming back to the old game and hyping it again as "best Esports in the history of mankind" or comparable bullshit has to give you the impression that there's some hypocrisy. I had that sentiment very early on with Tastosis after they started casting ASL and i imagine it should be pretty obvious at this point for everybody.
At this point, it's not about grudge or anything for me anymore. I just like to have casters who are sincere in their enthusiasm about the game they cast. Who don't go hyperbole and who don't use the superlative when they don't mean it. I'd be fine with, let's say Tasteless saying" Broodwar is a great game, tho i personally like Game XY more." If that's an honest sentiment, it's more meaningful to me then what they cater to us.
I think what fucked me off more is when SC2 first came out the fact that BW was still ongoing was masked to outsiders watching starcraft for the first time, and the fact that no, nobody really cared about fruitdealer and nestea at the time.
I just wish it didn't feel like they were being as deceptive to try and market the game. I totally agree in general. I think Tasteless doesn't overtly say what you've said about BW being a great game/sc2 etc - but I think he's more so the reverse. For al lot of casters, I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. I think Artosis would be somewhere 50/50 and liking both for equal reasons.
Like everybody else who made a living or wanted to make a living playing/covering a game, they had to move to Sc2 and LEARN to love it as well. Although it did sting a little watching everybody leave and only a handful stay, it was something unavoidable. Brood War is the orignal, it has no number tagged to it's name, so even if Sc3, Sc4 comes along and Sc2 is forgotten, Brood War will always have hardcore fans who believe it is the best RTS ever and nothing will come close.
I dunno how people can fault anyone for moving to SC2 from BW..
Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
But for people who literally grew up with brood war, and loved it so much that they travelled the world to play tournaments, and grasp at straws just to be able to do anything for the game they loved, you should only be happy they are coming back at the first chance they get to experience this game again in modern times.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with while playing the game with and against each other, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way, a lot of people in sc2 or other esports related jobs, and a lot of people in academic carreers or other 'real world' carreers. A lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again in a game that all of us love...That's the most exciting part about all of this.
Even though i've played SC2 for 6 years, for me personally, it was never the same as BW. I had a really good time travelling, competing, playing countless tournaments everywhere. Being part of such a highly competitive scene was really fun, no matter what the game was. In the first few years the entire WC3 scene and BW scene came together and everyone tried their best at this new game, it was exciting as hell. Competition is a huge part for anyone who gets into difficult RTS games to try and improve himself. So it didn't matter that the game was sometimes stale, lots of great games were happening too in SC2. But it could never compare to the pure love you felt when you were a child trying to play BW and create art..
On April 15 2017 21:23 Shock710 wrote: Its like people arent allowed to like more than one game...day9 did what almost every single bw personality in the scene did, switch to sc2 (even the pros had to follow after blizzard killed competitive bw) hes not just some dude who works an average day job and comes home to play bw or w/e.
The esports that he followed and made content for died for a while and in that time he had followed its predecessor hoping for a new and potentially exciting game with roots from his favourite game. Then i guess he lost interest in sc2 because of w/e reasons and stated that he just wanted to chill and play games on stream with his fanbase.
How is that not completely fine? he even tweeted that he often watched asl and broodwar leagues like the sonic starleague and etc. What did you want him to do, parade around on all social media at the first sign of bw coming back saying thank god i left sc2 i fucken love bw please forgive me if i ever left...like wtf, some of you guys are completely unreasonable. Its fucken day9 he did more for bw than 99% of the people on TL and by a huge margin.
You do not get to go "oh he enjoyed another game for a period of time, thus he can never come back to the game that i play" There shouldnt be any negativity about this.
Couldn't have said it any better, this amount of negativity is a bit sad to see...
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: I dunno how people can fault anyone for moving to SC2 from BW..
Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
But for people who literally grew up with brood war, and loved it so much that they travelled the world to play tournaments, and grasp at straws just to be able to do anything for the game they loved, you should only be happy they are coming back at the first chance they get to experience this game again.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with throughout the game, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way and a lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again...That's really the most exciting part about all of this.
i didn't fault them for coming back to Broodwar, i'd never would. I was a great fan of all those mentioned, i still am. I was a great fan of yours too by the way. I talked about hypocrisy. About statements that contradict each other, saying in one phrase "Broodwar is the greatest game ever" then Starcraft 2, then same back again. I understand that for a good deal. Being a professional caster brings along certain necessities, also the necessity to produce a lot of hype. Still it leaves me with a feeling of being unauthentic i cannot completely shake off.
By comparison, you are right. Broodwar was dead. But it wasn't objectivly. We had major tournaments in the west with prize pools, glory and all the good things from the past. We tried to keep it going. I tried to keep it going. And tho my part might be very small, i knew how much time and effort i put in and and others who put in way more. I was here in the "dark times" between hybrid proleague up until the most recent amouncement of SC:R. I knew the people who ran Gambit Cups, Team Liquid Leagcy Starleague, ICCup Nation League, defiler tours, esports-betting.pro Nationleague and countless dozens other events. I know the people who casted all the SSL's in english when nobody was around to do it professional. I know the admins who ran ICCup with no ressources, who moderated Teamliquid with little help, who held together the russian, polish, german, american, latin american player base. I know the coders who made the plugins and updates so we could play. Yes it was nothing compared to Starcraft 2, we had no financial backing or sponsor interest. Yet we did it in our free time, after studying, after working, with our own money as pirze, with or self written scripts for software.
These people made it possible that SC:R was met by a small, yet existing player base of fans. Not Artosis, not Day9. Don't misunderstand me. Nobody is more glad to see them back then me. I was the biggest fanboy the world ever saw, it makes me genuinly happy to reply to a post of yours in 2017. Seeing Artosis making a camcorder video of your run at Courage on Korea was the greatest for me. I was in grief when Tyler beat Dissy in TSL 2.
Yet, i feel i am entitled to a opinion in these matters.
The BW player base basically died after SC2, to the point where you had to idle in the lobby and search for 20 minutes before you could find a game (in 2v2 at least, which was the only mode I played). If BW was active and it was easy to find games I'd still play it today, just like Unreal Tournament which is also one of my all-time favorite games. But for reasons like this it makes perfect sense to quit a game. I didn't actually move on to SC2 either, I played it very little but never liked it, actually I wished it didn't exist so that BW would still be as strong but that was not the case. So saying this guy and that guy are traitors to the BW scene cause they didn't keep playing after SC2 came out is... super unfair.
I think Tastosis stopped saying "x is the best game ever" btw, they're basically saying both SCs are the best games ever and can coexist side-by-side nowadays. I think Artosis likes SC2 way more than Tasteless does though.
I am completely okay with DAy[9] playing and streaming whatever game he wants for whatever reasons.
What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
My impression is that he mostly streamed playing anything but BW as well. Some games every 3 months wouldn't have hurt either. Someone more knowledgeable of his streams content might want to fill me in on whether I am correct here or not as I am not a frequent watcher of his streams.
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
Except that he had a full-time job and felt he had said everything he had to say and felt burned out by starcraft to the point where he didn't even do any SC2 content? I think you have very sensible and nuanced opinions
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
My response would basically be what Cele tried to describe. I don't care if they went and made a living by casting/promoting Hello Kitty Island Adventure MOBA Superstars. I don't care about their games, I don't care if they earn money by that. Good for them, it doesn't hurt me. However, it still became a huge problem over time, especially with the rise of "eSports" in combination with the ridiculous attitude the start up scene comes along.
I love Brood War and parts of the community because of their genuine love. Having played video games in the early 2000s meant to be a sort of outcast. This is the sole reason the offline events were so great (e.g. the one you attented in Düsseldorf), or any small clan meet up. You met with people thinking alike, with the driving factor being the game itself, nothing surrounding it.
Nowadays everyone has to follow on twitter (btw follow @Liquidret, this LP meme has to be in), Facebook, Twitch (with its retarded smilies) and whatnot. And that's what Day9 and Artosis are to me now: Symbols of a trend I really do not identify with at all. It's about sitting and watching something hyped up with no real goal. It feels more like a series of advertisments with little to no content, the more screaming involved, the better. Compared to their really great moments, e.g. the cast of CombatEx, it's an empty shell of what used to be.
Some of us who truely tried to keep the game going with no resources whatsoever can't really understand that. Moreover, everytime anything of the new "esports pyramide inc. concept" was tried to be copied, it went to shit and caused needless drama. So, forgive me, but: If they come back with their new professional attitude, they could as well stay off.
Yet, if they/Day9 comes back and forgoes all that bullcrap, I'm more than happy to follow whatever shows he does. I remain highly sceptic that he'll be able to convince me though.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
...
I am sorry but the statement that "there were definitely not any tournaments" is half wrong. There were many online sponsored tournaments pre 2014 such as the weekly defiler tournaments, the ISLs, TLS, GGnet Cups and others. In terms of BW history, I think the amount of these online sponsored tournaments perhaps surpasses any period you choose from before the release of SC2. I admit that compared to SC2, the number of sponsored tournaments was lower and the prizepools was smaller. But compared to BW itself there were plenty.
The statemement is half right because there were, unfortunately, indeed no major international LAN events outside Korea for BW.
But still, if we are talking 2010-2014 I am sure that you could have labeled the scene in this sentence in a more respectful manner.
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
...
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with while playing the game with and against each other, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way, a lot of people in sc2 or other esports related jobs, and a lot of people in academic carreers or other 'real world' carreers. A lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again in a game that all of us love...That's the most exciting part about all of this.
...
If this possibility materializes it will be fun for a while, but I personally don't like the trend of "old names returning only". In and outside of Korea that is. It will be better long-term to have new chogosus emerging. Another problem will be that with the newly emerged interest, there might be people that want to circumvent the rules of the game and to develop tools that will be considered unfair for use for the competitive scene. There will always be that doubt in me - does this new guy really have it or does he maphack/have macro keys or whatever?
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
Except that he had a full-time job and felt he had said everything he had to say and felt burned out by starcraft to the point where he didn't even do any SC2 content? I think you have very sensible and nuanced opinions
I really don't see anything that stopped him from playing a game or two of BW once or twice a year on stream, or making an analysis of a BW game he really really liked after watching throughout all these years.
Money talks, if He for financial reasons has to say that Pokemon Go is the best game ever, He ll do it, not doubt about it. Hypocresy yes, but he has to make a living, doesnt he?
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
Except that he had a full-time job and felt he had said everything he had to say and felt burned out by StarCraft to the point where he didn't even do any SC2 content? I think you have very sensible and nuanced opinions
I really don't see anything that stopped him from playing a game or two of BW once or twice a year on stream, or making an analysis of a BW game he really really liked after watching throughout all these years.
As far as "anything BW related every now and then" he actually had a video 8 months ago explaining BW pathfinding to demonstrate the game's depth, and why SC2 felt lacking in that sense.
Regardless, it seems petty (at least) to hold someone for not being involved with something and implying they don't care/are hypocrites because of it. Anyone's perception of "the best game ever" (and their time spent on it) will surely change overtime, so why does it really matter that it was SC2 at one point and now it's back to BW?
On April 16 2017 00:45 CobaltBlu wrote: Kind of sad to see the BW community putting old community members to the purity test. SC2 gave those guys careers
No, that's unforgivable. No real BW fan would ever succumb to that.
Now excuse me, I'm going to watch Flash and Jaedong and Julyzerg and Nada, you know, the loyalists.
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
A handful of hideous decisions made it not so great. Those healthbars for units which aren't selected could've stayed hidden EASILY. But they had to make it so that if you disable them you handicap yourself, didn't they. Well that's hideous on so many levels, it's like a fractal of hideousness weaving its hideous self through our dimensions of spacetime, what's above and below it. It's like a fly carrying some disease in your soup, with a 1/4 chance to transmit it to you orally if you choose to eat the soup after you've removed the fly, or a 1/2 chance if you eat the fly as well. And it's not even like the fly accidentally wound up in the soup .. the fucking chef put it there!
Unlimited unit and building selection? Dumb. Limit that shit ffs. 2, 3 buildings tops, in one selection, and 24 units. EASY! Almost minute, but makes a world of difference, but nOoo. -_-
sorry but broodwar was never "dead." you might not have been in the scene, but it wasn't "completely dead" and there have been active tournies, be it the defiler tours or iccup or fish or whatever... just because you went to sc2 for the $$$ doesn't mean that you can brush all the passionate people who kept it going under the rug like that lmfao.. people might not be right to hate on anyone for returning, but returning and acting like your reentrance heralds the rebirth of the competitive scene is just kinda lol.
when flash and JD returned people were excited for the new vods that we would inevitably get, but no one forgot that they left in the first place for something as silly as sc2... don't forget, the whole reason broodwar was on the ropes is because blizz struck while the iron was hot after the matchfixing scandal, trying to shut down the scene for broadcasting rights and eyes on their "awesome new esport." it's not the ecelebs that are at fault, it's blizzard. 100%. they're the ones that should be outed from the community.
On April 15 2017 21:24 DickMcFanny wrote: I'm assuming those people who shit on Day9 for switching to SC2 are boycotting Flash and Jaedong now?
Exactly what I'm thinking. And Bisu, Effort, Stork, Best, Zero, Soulkey, Rain, Last, Jangbi and basically every pro in the scene
Nope, Bisu and Stork from the get go were pretty much open about they're feelings towards SC2. They never enjoyed it and as soon as they could they switched back to BW. Stork and Jangbi pretty much switched back straight after hybrid league ended. Flash and Jaedong tried to give SC2 a bigger chance. It's a bit different from Day9 who switched from a player to a caster when sc2 came out. Still I'm glad he's making BW content again.
The only thing that bothers me slightly about Day9 is as LRM)Technics mentioned: Why not stream/cast a couple of games once every few months or a few times a year?
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: I dunno how people can fault anyone for moving to SC2 from BW..
Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
But for people who literally grew up with brood war, and loved it so much that they travelled the world to play tournaments, and grasp at straws just to be able to do anything for the game they loved, you should only be happy they are coming back at the first chance they get to experience this game again.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with throughout the game, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way and a lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again...That's really the most exciting part about all of this.
i didn't fault them for coming back to Broodwar, i'd never would. I was a great fan of all those mentioned, i still am. I was a great fan of yours too by the way. I talked about hypocrisy. About statements that contradict each other, saying in one phrase "Broodwar is the greatest game ever" then Starcraft 2, then same back again. I understand that for a good deal. Being a professional caster brings along certain necessities, also the necessity to produce a lot of hype. Still it leaves me with a feeling of being unauthentic i cannot completely shake off.
By comparison, you are right. Broodwar was dead. But it wasn't objectivly. We had major tournaments in the west with prize pools, glory and all the good things from the past. We tried to keep it going. I tried to keep it going. And tho my part might be very small, i knew how much time and effort i put in and and others who put in way more. I was here in the "dark times" between hybrid proleague up until the most recent amouncement of SC:R. I knew the people who ran Gambit Cups, Team Liquid Leagcy Starleague, ICCup Nation League, defiler tours, esports-betting.pro Nationleague and countless dozens other events. I know the people who casted all the SSL's in english when nobody was around to do it professional. I know the admins who ran ICCup with no ressources, who moderated Teamliquid with little help, who held together the russian, polish, german, american, latin american player base. I know the coders who made the plugins and updates so we could play. Yes it was nothing compared to Starcraft 2, we had no financial backing or sponsor interest. Yet we did it in our free time, after studying, after working, with our own money as pirze, with or self written scripts for software.
These people made it possible that SC:R was met by a small, yet existing player base of fans. Not Artosis, not Day9. Don't misunderstand me. Nobody is more glad to see them back then me. I was the biggest fanboy the world ever saw, it makes me genuinly happy to reply to a post of yours in 2017. Seeing Artosis making a camcorder video of your run at Courage on Korea was the greatest for me. I was in grief when Tyler beat Dissy in TSL 2.
Yet, i feel i am entitled to a opinion in these matters.
Why would Day9 start covering BW if it wasnt for passion? He is so big and successful now, there is absolutely no need for him to jump on that little hype sourrunding BW lately. Covering some BW in the future will not bring him more fame or a higher income. It may just not hurt him as much as covering BW 3 years ago would have. Doing esports full-time is an incredibly hard business and Day9 has put in so many years of voluntary work. Blaming him for a lack of passion or hypocrisy is beyond ridiculous.
I started playing BW when SC2 was first announced, back then I was called a casual by people with a mindset alike yours. People told me I wasnt a true BW fan because I jumped on the hypetrain caused by SC2. Nowadays these comments sound extremely silly to me, Im pretty sure you as well will come back in 5 years and consider your current opinion quite ignorant.
On April 15 2017 21:24 DickMcFanny wrote: I'm assuming those people who shit on Day9 for switching to SC2 are boycotting Flash and Jaedong now?
Exactly what I'm thinking. And Bisu, Effort, Stork, Best, Zero, Soulkey, Rain, Last, Jangbi and basically every pro in the scene
Nope, Bisu and Stork from the get go were pretty much open about they're feelings towards SC2. They never enjoyed it and as soon as they could they switched back to BW. Stork and Jangbi pretty much switched back straight after hybrid league ended. Flash and Jaedong tried to give SC2 a bigger chance. It's a bit different from Day9 who switched from a player to a caster when sc2 came out. Still I'm glad he's making BW content again.
Wat? When Stork wasn't good enough anymore in SC2 he even rather started coaching instead of coming home. The only one who came back fast (of TBLS) was Bisu. Stork was actually the last one who came back. Flash started playing BW again like 10 months before Stork did.
On April 15 2017 21:24 DickMcFanny wrote: I'm assuming those people who shit on Day9 for switching to SC2 are boycotting Flash and Jaedong now?
Exactly what I'm thinking. And Bisu, Effort, Stork, Best, Zero, Soulkey, Rain, Last, Jangbi and basically every pro in the scene
Nope, Bisu and Stork from the get go were pretty much open about they're feelings towards SC2. They never enjoyed it and as soon as they could they switched back to BW. Stork and Jangbi pretty much switched back straight after hybrid league ended. Flash and Jaedong tried to give SC2 a bigger chance. It's a bit different from Day9 who switched from a player to a caster when sc2 came out. Still I'm glad he's making BW content again.
I dont know what they used to think about SC2, but i do know that Bisu didn't return to BW before playing SC2 1 year. Janngbi a bit earlier. And Stork didn't return before just recently!
Movie and Sea returned first among the former top players. Hiya and Killer just continued playing BW. Other than that, all top players switched to SC2 pretty much. But they did because the entire scene with all the teams and infrastructure was transformed into SC2 because of decisions made by blizzard and people in marketing. So the players didn't have much freedom or say in the matter either way. I'm sure many didn't want the switch.
On April 16 2017 01:52 marcesr wrote: Doing esports full-time is an incredibly hard business and Day9 has put in so many years of voluntary work. Blaming him for a lack of passion or hypocrisy is beyond ridiculous.
You misunderstood the point Cele was making. It's his problem how he gets money, we don't really care too much about that. We don't care he barely covered BW. We care about those, who made profit by other titles, which they might or might not have enjoyed and carry an artificial attitude with their return. It annoys me to no end whenever someone comes back riding the hypetrain, cause it's "in" and it's the "new retro" or another hipster bullshit. I'm not even argueing Day9 enjoys the game, and if he does, he should do it for his own entertainment, not to try to sell made-up nostalgia along the way. That's the entire point of Cele.
Moreover, after what Artosis delivered in his first Korean casts as of late, I can totally relate to anyone preamtively being mad about the fuss that is made, only because some ex-caster returned. There definitely was no bonus for those, who remained. It could be phrased less harshly in Day9's case though.
I started playing BW when SC2 was first announced, back then I was called a casual by people with a mindset alike yours. People told me I wasnt a true BW fan because I jumped on the hypetrain caused by SC2. Nowadays these comments sound extremely silly to me, Im pretty sure you as well will come back in 5 years and consider your current opinion quite ignorant.
Shame on those people. You shouldn't compare Cele to those, however. He was one of very, very few people actively trying to cater to late comers back in 2008. He helped to create a large portal, a ladder and a server designed to help people like you, played with people like you. After the SC2 beta he continued exactly this. I can't remember any post/report or anything against Cele done by a newcomer, exactly the opposite is true.
On April 16 2017 01:41 B-royal wrote: The only thing that bothers me slightly about Day9 is as LRM)Technics mentioned: Why not stream/cast a couple of games once every few months or a few times a year?
I think it is completely acceptable for him to keep his professional (streaming, video content) life separate from his favorite hobby, and I feel a bit weirded out that some people in this thread give the impression that they feel entitled to free content from a professional. People need to work, and Sean already works hard on his shows and growing his brand and company. A SC/BW series during the dark ages of the game, however sporadic, would have taken time away from the kind of content the majority of his subscribers wanted to see.
I don't think this new series is Day[9] cynically looking to make a quick buck while there is renewed interest in Brood War. If he just cared about money he'd stick to being a Hearthstone/variety streamer, or get deeper into Dota or something. I honestly think the hype around SC: Remastered is just the excuse he needs to produce the kind of content he would love to do, but couldn't justify spending so much time on at the cost of his regular programming.
Blizzard shat on Brood War during their SC2 promotional campaign, and willfully exacerbated its decline. That period still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but at no point did I blame the content producers from going to where the viewership was, and to a new and exciting place that had immense growing potential. Most of them just wanted StarCraft to be awesome.
I'm just happy he's back, and if the return of the likes of Sean breathes more life into the Brood War scene I will welcome any one of them back with open arms. Day[9] didn't burn any bridges when he left, and I have not gotten a sense of cynicism in what he's doing.
On April 15 2017 21:24 DickMcFanny wrote: I'm assuming those people who shit on Day9 for switching to SC2 are boycotting Flash and Jaedong now?
Exactly what I'm thinking. And Bisu, Effort, Stork, Best, Zero, Soulkey, Rain, Last, Jangbi and basically every pro in the scene
Nope, Bisu and Stork from the get go were pretty much open about they're feelings towards SC2. They never enjoyed it and as soon as they could they switched back to BW. Stork and Jangbi pretty much switched back straight after hybrid league ended. Flash and Jaedong tried to give SC2 a bigger chance. It's a bit different from Day9 who switched from a player to a caster when sc2 came out. Still I'm glad he's making BW content again.
What if I told you not even Korean fans think Blizzard tried to "kill" BW and accept that 2012 BW was on a steep natural decline? Western BW fans live in a really perverted victimhood bubble
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I am completely okay with DAy[9] playing and streaming whatever game he wants for whatever reasons.
What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
My impression is that he mostly streamed playing anything but BW as well. Some games every 3 months wouldn't have hurt either. Someone more knowledgeable of his streams content might want to fill me in on whether I am correct here or not as I am not a frequent watcher of his streams.
I don't know if this is how Day[9] feels, but I can't play SC (1 or 2) without playing seriously. Like REALLY seriously...
Trying to play five 1v1s every few months... I can't do that. When I quit BW in 2007 to play poker, I quit 100%, probably went a couple of years before I even played a game. When I quit SC2 in 2012, same story.
I got to high masters a couple of times in HotS by just spending a couple of weeks playing super seriously and studying builds etc (actually in some ways more systematically than I did as a pro) and then quit again because it takes too much time, and I can't play the game without taking it super seriously.
I love BW more than any other game I've ever played, but because I don't have time to play the game seriously I don't play at all (I hope I'll find some time to play but I don't have high hopes)
You guys complaining about his return are trolling, right? Day[9] has people on a payroll and rent to pay.
I always thought it was quite clear that despite liking both games, he would rather be doing BW content all the time... I mean, look at his damn face. It warms my heart how much he loves BW.
On April 16 2017 01:52 marcesr wrote: Doing esports full-time is an incredibly hard business and Day9 has put in so many years of voluntary work. Blaming him for a lack of passion or hypocrisy is beyond ridiculous.
You misunderstood the point Cele was making. It's his problem how he gets money, we don't really care too much about that. We don't care he barely covered BW. We care about those, who made profit by other titles, which they might or might not have enjoyed and carry an artificial attitude with their return. It annoys me to no end whenever someone comes back riding the hypetrain, cause it's "in" and it's the "new retro" or another hipster bullshit. I'm not even argueing Day9 enjoys the game, and if he does, he should do it for his own entertainment, not to try to sell made-up nostalgia along the way. That's the entire point of Cele.
Moreover, after what Artosis delivered in his first Korean casts as of late, I can totally relate to anyone preamtively being mad about the fuss that is made, only because some ex-caster returned. There definitely was no bonus for those, who remained. It could be phrased less harshly in Day9's case though.
Do you actually believe that day9 doesnt enjoy broodwar? that he is simply seeing into the future and seeing a big cash pile around sc:r... just one of those people who jump on to hypetrains for money. (we're not even gonna talk about other people cause cele is clearly talking about day9)
Are you kidding me...this guy invested so much of his time to produce one of the best community content ever in bw for nothing in return he couldnt have possibly know about the traction it would gain the future. Where is he trying to sell this nostalgia? Its just a dude explaining why he fucken likes bw.
It couldnt possibly be that he still likes the game he played for years and even competed in.
This wasnt even a promotion on his part, he's on his personal stream talking to his fanbase about doing some content. The sentiment from this thread feels like people are trying to gatekeep day9 from entering the bw scene which is just stupid. Hes taking nothing away and giving something that benefits everyone in the bw community. Is he taking viewers away from someone? is there some person who is making bw analysis vods? Theres no one doing that.
People like day9 have done enough for the bw community to come and fucken go as they please, there was no betrayal unless you've all never played another game apart from bw in your life.
On April 16 2017 01:41 B-royal wrote: The only thing that bothers me slightly about Day9 is as LRM)Technics mentioned: Why not stream/cast a couple of games once every few months or a few times a year?
I think it is completely acceptable for him to keep his professional (streaming, video content) life separate from his favorite hobby, and I feel a bit weirded out that some people in this thread give the impression that they feel entitled to free content from a professional. People need to work, and Sean already works hard on his shows and growing his brand and company. A SC/BW series during the dark ages of the game, however sporadic, would have taken time away from the kind of content the majority of his subscribers wanted to see.
1. I don't think Day9 works 16 hours a day, day-in day-out.
2. Who here is being entitled? This is just a basic expectation people have for someone who is a professional streamer and content producer yet doesn't play/cast/... his "favourite" game ever.
3. One of the principles of his stream is "no backseat gaming", which implies Day9 streams what he wants to stream. Content first, viewers second.
While I'm glad to see more people return to BW, I too still kind of resent Day[9] for taking a part in BW's decline by cashing in on SC2.
On April 16 2017 02:14 Aylear wrote: Blizzard shat on Brood War during their SC2 promotional campaign, and willfully exacerbated its decline. That period still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but at no point did I blame the content producers from going to where the viewership was, and to a new and exciting place that had immense growing potential. Most of them just wanted StarCraft to be awesome.
I'm sure they did hope that SC2 would be awesome, but what gets me is that they made careers out of convincing everybody how awesome it was before it was even released. And they did this during Blizzard's campaign to shut down professional BW, thus profiting off of BW's demise. They made money by purposely drawing away viewers and sponsors from BW to SC2. That is why it seems hypocritical to return to BW now, a game whose pro scene they helped to destroy.
But now that the pro scene is reviving it's easier to let go of that time when BW was being shut down. I still like Day[9] and look forward to him doing BW stuff.
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: I dunno how people can fault anyone for moving to SC2 from BW..
Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
But for people who literally grew up with brood war, and loved it so much that they travelled the world to play tournaments, and grasp at straws just to be able to do anything for the game they loved, you should only be happy they are coming back at the first chance they get to experience this game again in modern times.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with while playing the game with and against each other, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way, a lot of people in sc2 or other esports related jobs, and a lot of people in academic carreers or other 'real world' carreers. A lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again in a game that all of us love...That's the most exciting part about all of this.
Even though i've played SC2 for 6 years, for me personally, it was never the same as BW. I had a really good time travelling, competing, playing countless tournaments everywhere. Being part of such a highly competitive scene was really fun, no matter what the game was. In the first few years the entire WC3 scene and BW scene came together and everyone tried their best at this new game, it was exciting as hell. Competition is a huge part for anyone who gets into difficult RTS games to try and improve himself. So it didn't matter that the game was sometimes stale, lots of great games were happening too in SC2. But it could never compare to the pure love you felt when you were a child trying to play BW and create art..
Good post. And SC: Remastered is not going to be a huge cashgrab money train, people should stop acting like anyone who will create content for it is doing it for any reason other than passion.
Things are getting kind of heated in here. Can't we all just be excited that BW is coming back in full force? I'm so excited I might cut back on my courseload to get some more BW in.
On April 16 2017 02:20 Waxangel wrote: What if I told you not even Korean fans think Blizzard tried to "kill" BW and accept that 2012 BW was on a steep natural decline? Western BW fans live in a really perverted victimhood bubble
Well, I would love to be corrected on any of the following, so if you have something other than a condescending Morpheus quote please send it my way.
I didn't say they tried to "kill" BW while cackling maniacally as if they were some cartoony evil conglomerate, I said they exacerbated its decline for profit, and I stand by that claim.
After years of doing very little (and later nothing) for the Brood War scene, they suddenly come in (coincidentally during the promotional period for SC2) demanding royalties from OGN and MBC and KeSPA. Once their obviously-going-to-be-declined demands weren't met, Blizzard elected to solely prop up GOMTV as the sole purveyor and leave all of Starcraft's legacy in the dust.
In retaliation, KeSPA had their teams and players boycott GOM, and [weasel words incoming] supposedly influenced the ratings board to give SC2 an 18+ rating in Korea.
I happen to think the decline of Starcraft (1 and 2) in Korea is a lot more complicated than that (and included a natural decline), but to insinuate that Blizzard didn't put BW through the wringer for the sake of SC2 seems to me to be very disingenuous.
On April 16 2017 02:20 Waxangel wrote: What if I told you not even Korean fans think Blizzard tried to "kill" BW and accept that 2012 BW was on a steep natural decline? Western BW fans live in a really perverted victimhood bubble
No one has called you a BW hater yet. So far so good!
i'm pretty cynical but I'm kind of surprised at the negativity toward day9. shouldn't we all be happy that people are coming back and BW has a chance to become great again? i think we should be focusing more on ways to make the community lively and active again. Day9 is certainly contributing to that project with his content so how can you fault him? he's certainly doing more than I am for the community (probably u 2).
On April 16 2017 02:42 tenringer wrote: Things are getting kind of heated in here. Can't we all just be excited that BW is coming back in full force? I'm so excited I might cut back on my courseload to get some more BW in.
You know what, yeah, I don't really want to argue in this thread any more. People can feel however they want to feel, and I don't want to pretend like they haven't considered my side of the argument.
For myself, I'm excited about SC1's resurgence - however mild it might turn out to be - just for its promise of a few more leagues of ASL, SSL, and whatever else comes along. And if Day[9] wants to come back to produce more content for my favorite esports game, I'll be the first to welcome him back. =)
On April 16 2017 02:20 Waxangel wrote: What if I told you not even Korean fans think Blizzard tried to "kill" BW and accept that 2012 BW was on a steep natural decline? Western BW fans live in a really perverted victimhood bubble
This is the heavy truth blow that they simply wont accept, for them it always will be about looking for some spots to put up SC2 vs BW or BW was killed ignored or whatever... SC:R will just raise the toxicity and elitism level...
I almost feel sorry for time spent on the remastered edition after reading this post...
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
he "left" for SC2? games aren't a monogamous relationship, you can play and watch multiple and have ebbs and flows of which ones you play more. Day9 especially can't "stay faithful" (lmao) to Brood War because you simply can't make a living doing it outside Korea. You expect him to beg for food or something because of a misguided notion to never touch another game again?
imagine how stupid this mentality would be when applied to literally any other interest or hobby.
“I have not watched any True Blood because I am a loyal Game of Thrones fan,” said one StarCraft player. “Though maybe I can watch both shows and not Mad Men because I’m an HBO fan and not an AMC fan. Or maybe I can watch all of them and not The Avengers Age of Ultron because I’m a TV fan. Wait maybe I can watch all of that and not read books because I’m a digital media fan. Or maybe I can do all of that but not listen to music because I am a fan of things I see with my eyes. I have decided to watch all shows with the sound off because I am very loyal to my sense of sight.”
On April 16 2017 02:37 GeckoXp wrote: Please point out where I said he should not return at all.
I didnt say that you didnt want him to not return at all, but rather to stop pinning day9 as one of those people who is just here for the hyper train. Because he is completely justified in returning to do w/e he pleases.
and heres the early reply to "please point out where i said day9 is just here for the hypetrain"
>in Day9 thread,
>
On April 16 2017 02:08 GeckoXp wrote:We care about those, who made profit by other titles, which they might or might not have enjoyed and carry an artificial attitude with their return. It annoys me to no end whenever someone comes back riding the hypetrain, cause it's "in" and it's the "new retro" or another hipster bullshit.
Also the point that i felt Cele was talking about most was that he didnt like when artosis/tasteless/day9 and whoever else said something along the lines of "sc2 is the greatest game" and "broodwar is the greatest game" even if they were speaking in hyperbole for a cast. He just didnt like that..w/e hes entitled to think that artosis and tastless arent sincere about broodwar( i personally disagree).
But others in this thread arent happy that day9 will be making content, thats what im unhappy with, people are gatekeeping broodwar.
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: I dunno how people can fault anyone for moving to SC2 from BW..
Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
But for people who literally grew up with brood war, and loved it so much that they travelled the world to play tournaments, and grasp at straws just to be able to do anything for the game they loved, you should only be happy they are coming back at the first chance they get to experience this game again in modern times.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with while playing the game with and against each other, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way, a lot of people in sc2 or other esports related jobs, and a lot of people in academic carreers or other 'real world' carreers. A lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again in a game that all of us love...That's the most exciting part about all of this.
Even though i've played SC2 for 6 years, for me personally, it was never the same as BW. I had a really good time travelling, competing, playing countless tournaments everywhere. Being part of such a highly competitive scene was really fun, no matter what the game was. In the first few years the entire WC3 scene and BW scene came together and everyone tried their best at this new game, it was exciting as hell. Competition is a huge part for anyone who gets into difficult RTS games to try and improve himself. So it didn't matter that the game was sometimes stale, lots of great games were happening too in SC2. But it could never compare to the pure love you felt when you were a child trying to play BW and create art..
players and casters have always been passionate about brood war, and its amazing they are coming back to do content and to play.
the people that fault others for moving on from a game you couldn't make a living from to things that let you travel the world and have a career simply have never had to make that choice.
day9, tasteless, artosis, etc should have a free pass from the BW community for the rest of their lives simply for the body of work they've already produced even if they never come back
1) nobody has to cater to you, if you want someone so passionate about BW that they haven't stopped casting it since 1999, well you're out of luck, and oh yeah? how come you're not that person? hypocrite.
2) if you want passionate casters and professionals working with BW, they need to have survived the drought that was 2010-2015 in order to even be here today, so your desire for a professional passionate person flies in the face in the reality of what that entails. Grow the fuck up.
I guess taken positively this must be pretty similar to what actual celebrities deal with. Donald Glover probably got crap for not doing Community anymore, or when he did Atlanta for not putting out a new Childish Gambino album. It's a testament to the impact Day9 has had on the community that he could have this kind of effect.
I mean, it's still incredibly entitled and self-defeating, but you can't be loved without being hated, I guess.
On April 16 2017 02:37 GeckoXp wrote: Please point out where I said he should not return at all.
I didnt say that you didnt want him to not return at all, but rather to stop pinning day9 as one of those people who is just here for the hyper train. Because he is completely justified in returning to do w/e he pleases.
and heres the early reply to "please point out where i said day9 is just here for the hypetrain"
On April 16 2017 02:08 GeckoXp wrote:We care about those, who made profit by other titles, which they might or might not have enjoyed and carry an artificial attitude with their return. It annoys me to no end whenever someone comes back riding the hypetrain, cause it's "in" and it's the "new retro" or another hipster bullshit.
Also the point that i felt Cele was talking about most was that he didnt like when artosis/tasteless/day9 and whoever else said something along the lines of "sc2 is the greatest game" and "broodwar is the greatest game" even if they were speaking in hyperbole for a cast. He just didnt like that..w/e hes entitled to think that artosis and tastless arent sincere about broodwar( i personally disagree).
But others in this thread arent happy that day9 will be making content, thats what im unhappy with, people are gatekeeping broodwar.
Except that's not what I said at all. I haven't heard from Day9 in a while.
I said it pisses me off to no end, whenever I hear some supposedly super BW cast filled with objectively bad commentary: e.g. predicting every potential strategy, build or whatever wrong while comparing what is going on to SCII. That's neither helping the SCII crowd (wrong predictions), nor does it please the BW followers (SCII comparisons). And with that I meant the few Artosis casts I saw. This is what I was referring to and given the context of my other posts in this thread, it should have also been quite clear. Unless you desperately want me to hate on Day9, which I really don't. Nor do I hate Artosis as a person, I just really dislike his latest casts.
I like Brood War and I am happy that other people who like Brood War are going to be playing it again and we can share time and memories together. Y'all are being weird about this.
On April 15 2017 21:24 DickMcFanny wrote: I'm assuming those people who shit on Day9 for switching to SC2 are boycotting Flash and Jaedong now?
Exactly what I'm thinking. And Bisu, Effort, Stork, Best, Zero, Soulkey, Rain, Last, Jangbi and basically every pro in the scene
Nope, Bisu and Stork from the get go were pretty much open about they're feelings towards SC2. They never enjoyed it and as soon as they could they switched back to BW. Stork and Jangbi pretty much switched back straight after hybrid league ended. Flash and Jaedong tried to give SC2 a bigger chance. It's a bit different from Day9 who switched from a player to a caster when sc2 came out. Still I'm glad he's making BW content again.
I dont know what they used to think about SC2, but i do know that Bisu didn't return to BW before playing SC2 1 year. Janngbi a bit earlier. And Stork didn't return before just recently!
Movie and Sea returned first among the former top players. Hiya and Killer just continued playing BW. Other than that, all top players switched to SC2 pretty much. But they did because the entire scene with all the teams and infrastructure was transformed into SC2 because of decisions made by blizzard and people in marketing. So the players didn't have much freedom or say in the matter either way. I'm sure many didn't want the switch.
I thought JangBi liked sc2 for the most part and would have kept playing past 2013 but had to retire due to Personal life issues because i remember him being in the final season of Code S for 2013 and then out of the blue retiring.
On April 16 2017 03:38 Heyoka wrote: I like Brood War and I am happy that other people who like Brood War are going to be playing it again and we can share time and memories together. Y'all are being weird about this.
On April 16 2017 02:37 GeckoXp wrote: Please point out where I said he should not return at all.
I didnt say that you didnt want him to not return at all, but rather to stop pinning day9 as one of those people who is just here for the hyper train. Because he is completely justified in returning to do w/e he pleases.
and heres the early reply to "please point out where i said day9 is just here for the hypetrain"
>in Day9 thread,
>
On April 16 2017 02:08 GeckoXp wrote:We care about those, who made profit by other titles, which they might or might not have enjoyed and carry an artificial attitude with their return. It annoys me to no end whenever someone comes back riding the hypetrain, cause it's "in" and it's the "new retro" or another hipster bullshit.
Also the point that i felt Cele was talking about most was that he didnt like when artosis/tasteless/day9 and whoever else said something along the lines of "sc2 is the greatest game" and "broodwar is the greatest game" even if they were speaking in hyperbole for a cast. He just didnt like that..w/e hes entitled to think that artosis and tastless arent sincere about broodwar( i personally disagree).
But others in this thread arent happy that day9 will be making content, thats what im unhappy with, people are gatekeeping broodwar.
Except that's not what I said at all. I haven't heard from Day9 in a while.
I said it pisses me off to no end, whenever I hear some supposedly super BW cast filled with objectively bad commentary: e.g. predicting every potential strategy, build or whatever wrong while comparing what is going on to SCII. That's neither helping the SCII crowd (wrong predictions), nor does it please the BW followers (SCII comparisons). And with that I meant the few Artosis casts I saw. This is what I was referring to and given the context of my other posts in this thread, it should have also been quite clear. Unless you desperately want me to hate on Day9, which I really don't. Nor do I hate Artosis as a person, I just really dislike his latest casts.
Thats fine if you dislike artosis's current casting style and all but to mention that in line with this thread does no good for day9 it makes you look like your advocating that day9 is such a person
As this started with nina saying huh? Why are you coming back you left. Then that started all the i dont people who are just jumping on hypetrains for greed to come into this scene (why mention this at all if you think it has nothing to do with him) come in with cele saying that he doesnt like this hypocrisy of day9 and such and such (yes day9 has shown fondness of sc2 is that so bad).
Also you reply like you couldnt possibly be wrong with the condesending "please point out blablabla" "should have been quite clear" even tho you specificed no one and this is orginally about day9, "unless you desperately want me to hate day9" ....??? Why mention this why would i want that? If anything instead of trying to pin you as a day9 hater ive been explaining why you/everyone shouldnt be negative about this.
Edit: forget it, theres no point in a he said she said argument. Bottom line no one should be upset about day9 doing content.
bashing day or artosis or players who went to sc2 is completely ridiculous lol. These are guys who were so passionate about bw that they had already made names for themselves enabling them to make a profit from changing. Just because they at some point decided to hype hyperbole a bit and describe sc2 as the greatest game ever, who cares.
The idea that 'they could have at least played a couple games a year or whatever', that's nonsense too. Bw is no fun to pick up for two games every 4 months, especially if you're used to playing on a high level. And while yeah, the scene wasn't 'dead' from 2010-2016, but the activity isn't remotely comparable to how it was between 2007-2009, and for anyone living in a western country, the money you could possibly make from bw is completely negligible. Winning _every single_ defiler.ru tournament between 2010 and 2013 would make you what, $5000? Add every other tourney outside korea, I guess you can double that?
So of course nearly everyone who had gaming as a job rather than a hobby had to make the change. None of this detracts from the players who kept playing or the community organizers who made sure we still had something to play. I'm incredibly gracious towards everyone who kept iccup running, but I'm able to feel and express gratitude towards this bunch while also appreciating and being happy about a bunch of the old guard and newcomers from sc2 returning.
On April 16 2017 03:20 GeckoXp wrote: Nor do I hate Artosis as a person, I just really dislike his latest casts.
which casts are you referring to? i generally enjoy his casting so im curious what about them you don't like.
Same, haven't really heard any inaccurate predictions in recent casts. A few mentions of SC2 to say that probes don't trigger mines etc but if you're upset about that then you would be upset by anything really
This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about. Those same people went off and made a career off of SC2 which is also something.. most of you will never do. Now BW is getting an update and it is giving them a reason to come and play/make content and you want to try and hate them for that?
If what I just said describes you kindly avoid my channel while I happily play the game (BW) that launched my entire life/career. I don't want that attitude anywhere near me. There are enough shitty people in the world that we don't have to dig SO deep that we get mad when some ecelebrities return to a game we love... what in the actual fuck.
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about. Those same people went off and made a career off of SC2 which is also something.. most of you will never do. Now BW is getting an update and it is giving them a reason to come and play/make content and you want to try and hate them for that?
If what I just said describes you kindly avoid my channel while I happily play the game (BW) that launched my entire life/career. I don't want that attitude anywhere near me. There are enough shitty people in the world that we don't have to dig SO deep that we get mad when some ecelebrities return to a game we love... what in the actual fuck.
^
I'm noticing a trend where people who actually contributed to the BW scene have been sticking up for Day[9] while a bunch of no names seem upset. You all must be really young or something.
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about. Those same people went off and made a career off of SC2 which is also something.. most of you will never do. Now BW is getting an update and it is giving them a reason to come and play/make content and you want to try and hate them for that?
If what I just said describes you kindly avoid my channel while I happily play the game (BW) that launched my entire life/career. I don't want that attitude anywhere near me. There are enough shitty people in the world that we don't have to dig SO deep that we get mad when some ecelebrities return to a game we love... what in the actual fuck.
Amen.
On April 16 2017 03:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: bashing day or artosis or players who went to sc2 is completely ridiculous lol. These are guys who were so passionate about bw that they had already made names for themselves enabling them to make a profit from changing. Just because they at some point decided to hype hyperbole a bit and describe sc2 as the greatest game ever, who cares.
The idea that 'they could have at least played a couple games a year or whatever', that's nonsense too. Bw is no fun to pick up for two games every 4 months, especially if you're used to playing on a high level. And while yeah, the scene wasn't 'dead' from 2010-2016, but the activity isn't remotely comparable to how it was between 2007-2009, and for anyone living in a western country, the money you could possibly make from bw is completely negligible. Winning _every single_ defiler.ru tournament between 2010 and 2013 would make you what, $5000? Add every other tourney outside korea, I guess you can double that?
So of course nearly everyone who had gaming as a job rather than a hobby had to make the change. None of this detracts from the players who kept playing or the community organizers who made sure we still had something to play. I'm incredibly gracious towards everyone who kept iccup running, but I'm able to feel and express gratitude towards this bunch while also appreciating and being happy about a bunch of the old guard and newcomers from sc2 returning.
Yes, totally agree.
BW and SC2 are not too different in the grand scheme of things and "Leaving for SC2" (i.e. making a career) instead of "staying loyal" (i.e. having to work with something completely different to stay afloat and play in the night after work) is really not incompatible with loving BW more.
And even if they did like SC2 more at one point, that wouldn't be a crime either. Grow up lol
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
he "left" for SC2? games aren't a monogamous relationship, you can play and watch multiple and have ebbs and flows of which ones you play more. Day9 especially can't "stay faithful" (lmao) to Brood War because you simply can't make a living doing it outside Korea. You expect him to beg for food or something because of a misguided notion to never touch another game again?
Well, I started this mess, so let me just apologize for saying something stupid that got people riled up. It's been awhile since I've put my foot in my mouth this badly, so let me clarify what I was saying and how I actually feel. I can apologize for saying what I said, but I can't change how I feel, so I think it would only be right to be honest about it.
I absolutely, positively love Day[9]. I love his earnest attitude, his positivity, his ability to break things down into smaller logical chunks, his FACE, just everything, and I've never even met him! I think he's awesome, so imagine my delight when I heard he was going to start doing an analysis of a StarCraft game every single day. Every night, I would plop my butt down in my computer chair, because it was Day[9] Daily time, damn it.
When he did the first SC2 episode, I was like "Okay, that's interesting. This SC2 game might be good." and then not-too-long after, it was just ALL SC2 stuff. It just made me really sad. This was even before I decided that I didn't like SC2. I was just like, "Where's the Brood War?" and it dawned on me that he would probably NEVER do another episode on Brood War ever again.
Meanwhile, here I am, plugging away at StarCraft: Brood War. Why? Because I wasn't thinking, "Oh, I have to pay the bills by playing video games." Money was never an issue, and I don't think money should ever be an issue when it comes to doing something you love versus something you don't love. Now, I can't speak for Sean or Nick, but I feel like at a certain point, they just got disgusted with SC2's constant balance changes and saw the game going in a really negative direction, and went elsewhere, like to streaming Hearthstone and stuff. Nick even logged onto the Fish Server one night to play StarCraft: Brood War, and I got to play a game of StarCraft with Tasteless. That felt so unreal, and I was so happy.
2015-2016 were kind of the bottom of the barrel for Brood War, but generally speaking, from 2010 on, there was a lot of Brood War stuff going on. There was an SSL, ASL, ISL, and tons and tons of tournaments. Like TechnicS pointed out, I think it's unfair to characterize the scene as 'dead' when it was merely diminished but not destroyed. That's the shit I kept hearing, and continue to hear, though, that the SC1 scene was dead so why even bother. The reason it was "dying", though, was because people kept 'switching' to SC2. I never understood why people couldn't play both games. So when someone asks me, "Can't someone like both games?" I would say that I've never said that. Of course someone can like both games. Post 2010, there was a whole next-generation of foreigner players that nobody outside of the Brood War microcosm even knows about. It's so easy to click on the Brood War forum and just look around and go, "What's happenin' in this neck of the woods?" for 15 minutes.
So when Day[9] goes "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!" I'm like, what are you talking about? It's been here the whole time. That amazing dOTY vs Sziky bo9 final... did you see that? That was fucking lit. I wish he could've seen that live. He would've loved it. I wish the whole world could've seen all those great little moments that happened since 2010, and shared that moment of heartbreak with Kim Carrier as he cried on national television because he was watching the 'last' StarCraft tournament, then feel that burst of excitement when he stepped on stage to cast the SSL a year or so later.
Besides that, (and this is definitely not directed at Day[9]) I've heard a million times that I'm playing a dead game that nobody cares about, and am asked why I don't play SC2 or play Starbow, or that I could "have ten times as many twitch followers on SC2", and all this and that. It's just annoying, to be honest. I've read all kinds of forum posts that say we need to kill Brood War to unify StarCraft fans under SC2 for the sake of eSports, and I was like "What the hell?"
In the meanwhile, I've watched SC2 tournaments. I've watched SC2 streams. I've played SC2. I never advocated killing either game, but I've always stuck with Brood War because I just love that damn game. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone who went to SC2 full-time, either, before I hear that accusation.
The whole "Shit on Brood War" situation over the years has just made me sad, that's all. That whole thing made me sad. I'm happy for Day[9], though. I don't think he was as happy with SC2, and now he has an opportunity to talk about SC:BW again for a large audience. I can't wait to watch the show.
For everyone in general: please PLEASE PLEASE don't talk bad about Day[9] or SC2 or be cynical. If you want a good reason not to be cynical, then consider this: I've been optimistic about SC1 for last 7 years and it's paid off. I wish Sean Plott the very best with his show, and I look forward to watching it.
On April 16 2017 03:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: And while yeah, the scene wasn't 'dead' from 2010-2016, but the activity isn't remotely comparable to how it was between 2007-2009, and for anyone living in a western country, the money you could possibly make from bw is completely negligible. Winning _every single_ defiler.ru tournament between 2010 and 2013 would make you what, $5000? Add every other tourney outside korea, I guess you can double that?
^
People saying BW was not dead... no game truly dies unless the servers are shut down and there's no way to play the game, otherwise there's always going to be some people playing the game. But you can feel when a game is dead enough when for instance you spend more time searching for games than playing the game. What Drone said, about jobs and money, is only relevant for a few players - most are leaving for other reasons, like lack of activity or the one I mentioned.
i don`t really care either way but please mind that those who have done ,,by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about" more havent done that for free. I`d actually bet that when taking into account $/h mca64 or other guys like that have made almost infinitely less (as in 0$/h) than say day[9], isnt that right?
I do things too but i never thought I`m some kind of super-hero as my pocket was always why i`ve done them
I can't fault anyone for making a career in SC2 but I was always a bit disappointed how little some of these guys did to help BW in its darkest days. A lot of them did nothing despite being in great positions, and to see them now talking about how beautiful the game is now that there's perhaps an opportunity to ride the hype a little (ala SC2 expansions)... it just seems a bit disingenuous.
Perhaps that's harsh or disrespectful. Either way this is obviously a good thing.
My dream was to see BW and LOTV communities working together to push StarCraft as the flagship to RTS... Well i guess never gonna have since apparetly once you did something for BW ur singed for life with ur blood and dare you to talk about to game after few years...
On April 16 2017 00:45 CobaltBlu wrote: Kind of sad to see the BW community putting old community members to the purity test. SC2 gave those guys careers
No, that's unforgivable. No real BW fan would ever succumb to that.
Now excuse me, I'm going to watch Flash and Jaedong and Julyzerg and Nada, you know, the loyalists.
You're going to watch JulyZerg, oh loyal one? Please tell me where
I'm going to ignore the negativity and squee internally. I'm not a fan of SC2. Not really a fan of Hearthstone. But I am a fan of Day[9] (and stardew valley) as well as BW. I look forward to a possible new series.
On April 16 2017 01:52 marcesr wrote: I started playing BW when SC2 was first announced, back then I was called a casual by people with a mindset alike yours. People told me I wasnt a true BW fan because I jumped on the hypetrain caused by SC2. Nowadays these comments sound extremely silly to me, Im pretty sure you as well will come back in 5 years and consider your current opinion quite ignorant.
hmh no, i know people with that mindset and it's not me. I don't like people with that mindset either. I never got really good at this game (i play like for ever, never made it past the yellow ranks on iccup) because im too casual myself. I helped some in league and tours especially for casuals and beginners. So i don't know, but with all due respect; i think your projecting something on me, that isn't me.
What i meant was only that i dislike this artificial hyperbole that is being produced in casts. As pointed out by some, it's understandable and part of the business, something you have to do to promote yourself and your content. But i just don't have to enjoy it. It really [still] suprises me, that every sentiment that's being expressed by us longterm fans is being labelled as "BW elitism".
On April 16 2017 02:14 Aylear wrote: ever sporadic, would have taken time away from the kind of content the majority of his subscribers wanted to see.
I don't think this new series is Day[9] cynically looking to make a quick buck while there is renewed interest in Brood War. If he just cared about money he'd stick to being a Hearthstone/variety streamer, or get deeper into Dota or something. I honestly think the hype around SC: Remastered is just the excuse he needs to produce the kind of content he would love to do, but couldn't justify spending so much time on at the cost of his regular programming.
it's a fine argument and i don't want to dismiss it. I do not know Sean Plott and i wouldn't dare to say what his true passion is and what isn't. It seems a good guess to me that his passion rests with the Starcraft universe as a whole. However, i don't mind where it is. I don't mind genuine fandom for Super Mario Land 1, Starcraft 2 or CS:GO.
I mind the rapid change from one superlative to another. Calling game A the greatest and a month later, with a a new trend, game b. I'd be fine with a more honest " i like this game too, i think it's great fun." Incontrol was very bad at excessive hyperbole for instance. Day 9 actually not so much.
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about.
How do you know? Im very well aware of what Artosis did for the game. He earned a lot of merit for it undoubtedly. I also do know what a guy like fr)Yoda did for the game. Do you too? Who makes you the person to tell the crowd who deserves what or doesn't when you come here again after 7 years and have the audacity to tell those who stayed who did something important for the community and who did not? You can't know, because you missed those years. People i can name might have achieved less in total amounts, because external factors were worse. Doesn't mean they put in any less time, effort and passion then those you wanna name.
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: There are enough shitty people in the world that we don't have to dig SO deep that we get mad when some ecelebrities return to a game we love... what in the actual fuck.
Well, perhaps you mean somebody else in this thread, but i'm not mad. Im very happy about it. As i said above, i could do without the excessive hyperbole and without people like you assuming everybody will just drop to ground and sing songs of prayer just because Day9 elects to do Broodwar content again. I'll watch it if it's good for sure, as i did back in the day.
I'm over here all stoked about SC:R and have shared that day 9 rant with my friends who never played bw to try to get them to play. Then this thread is all resentment and vitriol. BW is the hardest game in the world, it takes a special kind of person to enjoy it alone, so getting popular talking heads of esports to bring attention to it is a very good thing. If they get into it, and the older players get into it, and bring their friends into it, then BW could see a spike in popularity that it has never seen before. I'm super excited for it, and everybody else should be too!
On April 16 2017 05:46 Meta wrote: I'm over here all stoked about SC:R and gave shared that day 9 rant with my friends who never played bw to try to get them to play. Then this thread is all resentment and vitriol. BW is the hardest game in the world, it takes a special kind of person to enjoy it alone, so getting popular talking heads of esports to bring attention to it is a very good thing. If they get into it, and the older players get into it, and bring their friends into it, then BW could see a spike in popularity that it has never seen before. I'm super excited for it, and everybody else should be too!
After this perfect explanation with these 6 pages Im not gonna introduce my friends to this toxic elitist field, i would rather dload the 30GB of starter SC2 and ship it to anywhere on the planet...
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
I can forgive him for leaving at first. It seemed like this was going to be part two. The smash community went through much the same letdown with Brawl. Even if you listen to the excitement and then the realization that it was mechanically different, you could substitute the exact words for BW/sc2's relationship:
The problem is since Nintendo never tried to force out melee, it never went away and the players who thought it was better went back and melee is still the biggest game in the series. There really wasn't much to come back to after Blizzard forced BW out of kespa.
I never thought the crowd of people who hate on Day9 for playing different games and not "sticking with a game forever" (as if that were ever a fucking thing) would find their way onto TL. Are you fucking serious guys?
Day9 has contributed more deep, holistic content to this community than any other community figure I can think of. He taught me how to study StarCraft, showed me how deep the game can be and made me appreciate all iterations of the game as something valuable and innately worthy of my time.
He fucking grew up playing Brood War. Any of you ever watched his Daily #100? Sean Plott has poured his heart out for StarCraft for more than half of his fucking life and you're going to give him shit about getting excited about a remaster of the game he grew up with?
On April 16 2017 06:06 Qwyn wrote: I never thought the crowd of people who hate on Day9 for playing different games and not "sticking with a game forever" (as if that were ever a fucking thing) would find their way onto TL. Are you fucking serious guys?
Day9 has contributed more deep, holistic content to this community than any other community figure I can think of. He taught me how to study StarCraft, showed me how deep the game can be and made me appreciate all iterations of the game as something valuable and innately worthy of my time.
He fucking grew up playing Brood War. Any of you ever watched his Daily #100? Sean Plott has poured his heart out for StarCraft for more than half of his fucking life and you're going to give him shit about getting excited about a remaster of the game he grew up with?
You don't understand, he played another game more for a while and then he got excited about something that many other people are excited about! Unforgivable!
I've written a bunch of responses and then deleted them but I am just going to say you are an idiot Cele. The most random insult I've gotten in a LONG time is "you are bad at excessive hyperbole" what? WHAT? lol
I'd ask you to back that up but we both know you can't and made it up.. jesus.
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I am completely okay with DAy[9] playing and streaming whatever game he wants for whatever reasons.
What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
My impression is that he mostly streamed playing anything but BW as well. Some games every 3 months wouldn't have hurt either. Someone more knowledgeable of his streams content might want to fill me in on whether I am correct here or not as I am not a frequent watcher of his streams.
I don't know if this is how Day[9] feels, but I can't play SC (1 or 2) without playing seriously. Like REALLY seriously...
Trying to play five 1v1s every few months... I can't do that. When I quit BW in 2007 to play poker, I quit 100%, probably went a couple of years before I even played a game. When I quit SC2 in 2012, same story.
I got to high masters a couple of times in HotS by just spending a couple of weeks playing super seriously and studying builds etc (actually in some ways more systematically than I did as a pro) and then quit again because it takes too much time, and I can't play the game without taking it super seriously.
I love BW more than any other game I've ever played, but because I don't have time to play the game seriously I don't play at all (I hope I'll find some time to play but I don't have high hopes)
Maybe it's something similar for Day[9].
Yeah, that's a reason I thought of as well. When thinking about it I am like 'Yeah, this definitely applies to me as well' as in order to perform well several serious games on fish are a must for me while having less time to do it. But in reality I have several sessions every 3-4 months, offracing a lot, playing on setups I feel really uncomfortable in and so on alongside the feeling "I know I can play much better and I don't like that I just lost because of it". Yet I am still excited to play a bunch of PvZs as P (my main is z). There are other ways to have fun with BW too - plenty of UMS games, team games on hunters, micro polishing maps or w/e maps. I thought that should apply to others that were passionate and/or dedicated to the game as well. And as he streams frequently, it comes natural to think he will play once in a while.
I don't even have to be playing or watching to enjoy BW. I mean, if you catch me in a good day, I will gladly dive into a hours long discussion about how FlaSh and Jaedong should be adapting to each other in various circumstances by build orders, micro management and so on and feel really good about it. Or tune in briefly in an LR or any BW related thread here and say something.
Maybe he is more into more structured and comprehensive stuff than into scattered stuff chiming in here and there with an analysis of a game or series he really really liked.
I really appreciate all the passion and sacrifice guys like Day[9] put into sharing their love of StarCraft and making it more approachable and fun for me to play. I'm eagerly awaiting whatever else he is going to add to this community.
On April 16 2017 06:42 iNcontroL wrote: btw telling people to not attack someone is NOT THE SAME as telling them to worship him Cele.. pull your fucking head out of your ass.
i got tons of respect for day9, for Tasteless and for Artosis. I said it in my first post and second post and where i replied to you. Yet all you read is "im attacking Tasteless/Day9. I don't. I don't enjoy your attitude, coming into this forum after seven years and telling people who deserves credit and who doesn't. Because you have not the slightest clue about those seven years. Try to address what im saying please. I used to love your content and im very eager to do it again. I still have big respect for everybody who did stuff up to 2010. But please show some respect for those people who did stuff here when you were not around and don't brush it of by saying something like this:
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about.
On April 16 2017 06:42 iNcontroL wrote: btw telling people to not attack someone is NOT THE SAME as telling them to worship him Cele.. pull your fucking head out of your ass.
i got tons of respect for day9, for Tasteless and for Artosis. I said it in my first post and second post and where i replied to you. Yet all you read is "im attacking Tasteless/Day9. I don't. I don't enjoy your attitude, coming into this forum after seven years and telling people who deserves credit and who doesn't. Because you have not the slightest clue about those seven years. Try to address what im saying please. I used to love your content and im very eager to do it again. I still have big respect for everybody who did stuff up to 2010. But please show some respect for those people who did stuff here when you were not around and don't brush it of by saying something like this:
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about.
Dude but there is a limit being a fan and support for a scene and being obssesed by it... iNcontrol might moved on, but it helped to estabilish his career... but for you, you might want to breathe some fresh air and read what you wrote after some time...
I think Day9 and BW both gave a lot to each other and got a lot out of each other. That's what makes a scene, an interdependence. I don't see any issues around loyalty, or respect. This should just be a period of quiet excitement for those whose lives were impacted by this silly, beautiful game.
On April 16 2017 06:42 iNcontroL wrote: btw telling people to not attack someone is NOT THE SAME as telling them to worship him Cele.. pull your fucking head out of your ass.
i got tons of respect for day9, for Tasteless and for Artosis. I said it in my first post and second post and where i replied to you. Yet all you read is "im attacking Tasteless/Day9. I don't. I don't enjoy your attitude, coming into this forum after seven years and telling people who deserves credit and who doesn't. Because you have not the slightest clue about those seven years. Try to address what im saying please. I used to love your content and im very eager to do it again. I still have big respect for everybody who did stuff up to 2010. But please show some respect for those people who did stuff here when you were not around and don't brush it of by saying something like this:
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about.
I'm so lost, what does the last 7 years have to to with Day[9] coming back? He's not going to diminish what anyone has done in the last 7 years. No one is saying anything about those guys tbh. Incontrol's comment was directed at the people who have done nothing for BW unless I'm mistaken.
The idea that 'they could have at least played a couple games a year or whatever', that's nonsense too. Bw is no fun to pick up for two games every 4 months, especially if you're used to playing on a high level. And while yeah, the scene wasn't 'dead' from 2010-2016, but the activity isn't remotely comparable to how it was between 2007-2009, and for anyone living in a western country, the money you could possibly make from bw is completely negligible. Winning _every single_ defiler.ru tournament between 2010 and 2013 would make you what, $5000? Add every other tourney outside korea, I guess you can double that?
I am unsure whether that relates to my comments, as I wasn't quoted, but in the case it was something that I wrote to provoke this response, I think there's some misinterpretation going on that I want to clarify.
In relation to day9: The idea that I shared is that his tweets should not be praised as BW content. He can play any game he wants, and he can make a living out of everything he chooses to. He streams frequently. It only comes natural to wonder why he didn't discuss any BW on his stream for so long. Analyzing in-depth some series he really really liked on his stream once in a while wouldn't require too much time and resource involvement on his part and IMO wouldn't diminish his chances of making a living out of whatever he wants to. The "a couple of games/discussions every 3-6 months" apply here, and not to the foreigner scene part.
in relation to the foreigner BW scene 2010-2015:
Offline - there were absolutely no major LAN BW international events. (edit: besides the WCG 2010 which unfortunately had very low amount of BW players involved)
Online - I do not argue that in this time period there were enough BW online tournaments to make a living out of BW. In terms of BW history, there were plently of sponsored tournaments online for foreigners in this time period even though the prizepools were relatively smaller. Mashing together the lack of offline events with the online foreigner scene by labeling the foreigner scene as a whole "completely dead" sounded disrespectful to me. I think ret meant no disrespect here and could have said it in a better, more respectful way.
The idea that 'they could have at least played a couple games a year or whatever', that's nonsense too. Bw is no fun to pick up for two games every 4 months, especially if you're used to playing on a high level. And while yeah, the scene wasn't 'dead' from 2010-2016, but the activity isn't remotely comparable to how it was between 2007-2009, and for anyone living in a western country, the money you could possibly make from bw is completely negligible. Winning _every single_ defiler.ru tournament between 2010 and 2013 would make you what, $5000? Add every other tourney outside korea, I guess you can double that?
I am unsure whether that relates to my comments, as I wasn't quoted, but in the case it was something that I wrote to provoke this response, I think there's some misinterpretation going on that I want to clarify.
In relation to day9: The idea that I shared is that his tweets should not be praised as BW content. He can play any game he wants, and he can make a living out of everything he chooses to. He streams frequently. It only comes natural to wonder why he didn't discuss any BW on his stream for so long. Analyzing in-depth some series he really really liked on his stream once in a while wouldn't require too much time and resource involvement on his part and IMO wouldn't diminish his chances of making a living out of whatever he wants to. The "a couple of games/discussions every 3-6 months" apply here, and not to the foreigner scene part.
in relation to the foreigner BW scene 2010-2015:
Offline - there were absolutely no major LAN BW international events.
Online - I do not argue that in this time period there were enough BW online tournaments to make a living out of BW. In terms of BW history, there were plently of sponsored tournaments online for foreigners in this time period even though the prizepools were relatively smaller. Mashing together the lack of offline events with the online foreigner scene by labeling the foreigner scene as a whole "completely dead" sounded disrespectful to me. I think ret meant no disrespect here.
agreed with everything said actually. Well said sir.
There is something entirely different from anyone playing SC BW before SC2 was released, and Day[9] or Artosis becoming internet/Twitch/Youtube personalities, trying to figure out how to produce content that attracts viewers or getting hired for a new casting job.
We used to pride ourselves in playing a game that everyone else considered to be 'dead'. We used to pride ourselves in that our game survived WC3, outlived WC3, and was far far better than any more recent RTS. We played an old game no 'shallow' teenager would consider playing, because back then almost no teenager would start playing a game released many many years ago.
Then SC2 happened. There was a short boom in popularity as SC2 was the most recent most novel RTS. And even for a short while, SC2 was the latest AAA PC gaming title around.
So yes, Artosis and Day9 realized they could find a job in gaming, but that they would have to adjust to what is popular. So Day9 now does Hearthstone, even though he likes SC BW AND Magic more. That's fine. It is their job. But that does mean they are no longer a crazy passionate person doing something special. They are just like any other journalist out there, trying to get viewers for their own niche. Fine. But the elitism we prided ourselves with, that does no longer apply.
So when Artosis or Day9 go back and try to invoke their old now lost elitism, they no longer have it. There are people who saw SC2 was inferior to SC BW, and they stuck with SC BW. There are people that saw SC2 wasn't so good, and they quit gaming, graduated college, got a PhD, and now have a job and can speak freely in SC BW or SC2. Day9 or Artosis could have done the same. Now, Artosis has no education. But Day9 has. He could have gotten a job, and be indepedent in his free time, and make Twitch/Youtube content. Artosis always talks about his Wallmart job. Let's also be real. Some of these people in SC BW, they ruined their teenage years and their education, pursuing their passion with almost no hope for any career in that field. Artosis was the only SC BW English caster that knew the game. And he adjusted to all other things. He is talented at that, so he was lucky and he escaped a professional disaster. I understand he understands how privileged he is to be having a nice paying job doing something for a job that isn't completely what he would be doing in his free time, but is very close in terms of fun. And he gets paid to do it. And he needs to be smart about keeping a job in a changing industry.
So yes, these people 'sold out'. Let's not deny it. But that's not that bad of a thing.
But it does force a certain amount of hypocrisy. When a personality claims they are really excited about this new game, because they believe that game will be a nice job opportunity for them, it isn't genuine. And if the game they depend on for their career isn't that good, they cannot go out and speak truth on that, bashing the game that is their livelihood.
And that also means that a 'defense' for all these people that did the same thing, be it Incontrol or ret or whoever, they are also 'defending' their own actions. These top foreigner SC BW amateurs, they knew there would be opportunities with SC2. And they took them. Many had quite a few nice and unique experiences that wouldn't have happened in their life otherwise. I mean, even someone like FrozenArbiter, who wasn't even good at SC BW, managed to get a career in SC2 somehow. Of course that was also because of the Blizzard vs Kespa war, but it did give them unique opportunities. I played games with all these people back in the day, but I went my own way. Many of us weren't made for practicing hardcore like a Korean, or trying to carve out a niche as an internet personality. But some f us saw the commercial opportunity that was SC2, and it was very big. And they ran with it, even though they realized very early on that the game was very flawed, and kept very silent about it.
Day9 or Artosis won't bite the hand that feeds them. And we cannot expect them to do so. If we want honest genuine independent opinions, we have to rely on amateurs.
Oh, and what I always found annoying is that Day9 acted like he was a great SC2 player when he tried to become famous as a SC2 personality. He used to be the best American in SC BW. But he never had a career in SC2. He learned about SC2 by casting, not by playing. In SC BW, that would have been completely unacceptable. But in SC2, we SC BW people somehow accepted that from Day9.
In the same way it pains me to see my SC BW heroes having switched to SC2, now switching back to SC BW again, to play games on Twitch. I cannot for the life of me understand Twitch. Why would I want to watch random practice games? I want to watch a finals with a 10 000+ people audience. It saddens me to see these people sitting in some cheap apartment, playing random games, when they have the talents to have a successful professional career. How many people actually had success in SC BW, quit, and had a great career? (btw being a poker player isn't a great career, no matter how much money you lost, and won). That saddens me a bit, and makes me satisfied in my own choices, but it still saddens me.
It's normal to see disgruntled comments on the internet, but I think deep down even you guys annoyed that he started streaming other games are happy to think he's going to make more videos. You'll probably watch his videos and love them if he can make it a viable source of income.
imo I think his streams and videos of other games are pretty dog tier, but his BW content was one of the best things the English community ever had, period. The amount of depth in analysis of so many progames was a rare treat and he did it simultaneous with his studies and somehow didn't burn out. If he still remembers half the stuff he knew about BW before he will be an excellent caster. I would love to hear that kind of analysis again.
And actually, he did a really good job with his SC2 videos too, especially in the beginning year, they were basically his BW analysis but more trying to understand the new game.
Besides all that, even though I've played a tonne of BW, Day9 has probably played like 100 times as much, so I can never really say I love the game more than him even if he did make his money streaming other games lol. On some level you gotta appreciate that there's a difference between still loving a game you never mastered, and loving a game you feel satisfied you played at your highest realistic level. Plus I give no street cred to sour pusses.
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I am completely okay with DAy[9] playing and streaming whatever game he wants for whatever reasons.
What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
My impression is that he mostly streamed playing anything but BW as well. Some games every 3 months wouldn't have hurt either. Someone more knowledgeable of his streams content might want to fill me in on whether I am correct here or not as I am not a frequent watcher of his streams.
I don't know if this is how Day[9] feels, but I can't play SC (1 or 2) without playing seriously. Like REALLY seriously...
Trying to play five 1v1s every few months... I can't do that. When I quit BW in 2007 to play poker, I quit 100%, probably went a couple of years before I even played a game. When I quit SC2 in 2012, same story.
I got to high masters a couple of times in HotS by just spending a couple of weeks playing super seriously and studying builds etc (actually in some ways more systematically than I did as a pro) and then quit again because it takes too much time, and I can't play the game without taking it super seriously.
I love BW more than any other game I've ever played, but because I don't have time to play the game seriously I don't play at all (I hope I'll find some time to play but I don't have high hopes)
Maybe it's something similar for Day[9].
Yeah, that's a reason I thought of as well. When thinking about it I am like 'Yeah, this definitely applies to me as well' as in order to perform well several serious games on fish are a must for me while having less time to do it. But in reality I have several sessions every 3-4 months, offracing a lot, playing on setups I feel really uncomfortable in and so on alongside the feeling "I know I can play much better and I don't like that I just lost because of it". Yet I am still excited to play a bunch of PvZs as P (my main is z). There are other ways to have fun with BW too - plenty of UMS games, team games on hunters, micro polishing maps or w/e maps. I thought that should apply to others that were passionate and/or dedicated to the game as well. And as he streams frequently, it comes natural to think he will play once in a while.
I don't even have to be playing or watching to enjoy BW. I mean, if you catch me in a good day, I will gladly dive into a hours long discussion about how FlaSh and Jaedong should be adapting to each other in various circumstances by build orders, micro management and so on and feel really good about it. Or tune in briefly in an LR or any BW related thread here and say something.
Maybe he is more into more structured and comprehensive stuff than into scattered stuff chiming in here and there with an analysis of a game or series he really really liked.
I did that too (random ums and 2v2 3v3 4v4), but I wouldn't want to stream it tbh.
I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
I don't think that diminishes who they are or what they've done for the scene, though. There really aren't that many negative posts in this thread, just people defending their views of personalities like Artosis/Tasteless/Day9 using excessive hyperbole to hype up games. We can have a civil discussion without throwing insults and challenges everywhere (iNcontroL). Chill the fuck out people.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
So did everyone. Liking one thing doesn't mean you can't like other things.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: Well this thread blew up lol.
I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
I don't think that diminishes who they are or what they've done for the scene, though. There really aren't that many negative posts in this thread, just people defending their views of personalities like Artosis/Tasteless/Day9 using excessive hyperbole to hype up games. We can have a civil discussion without throwing insults and challenges everywhere (iNcontroL). Chill the fuck out people.
you indeed summed up what im trying to say quite well. And people who demand respect should show some. Nuff said, im done here. This thread is for Sean's content. Despite my feelings regarding casting "style", i repeat myself, im genuinly happy to see his new content coming up. This thread needs no further derailing, so i'll let it rest.
On April 15 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I am completely okay with DAy[9] playing and streaming whatever game he wants for whatever reasons.
What I am completely not okay with though is praising his tweets throughout the years as BW content. Sure, it might had spread the popularity of the old game a bit. But I think there's nothing that stopped him from providing an indepth analysis of a game or a series of games that he really really liked say once or twice a year. I mean there were amazing tournament and streamed games out there already to pick from already even before Bisu returned. This or anything BW related.
My impression is that he mostly streamed playing anything but BW as well. Some games every 3 months wouldn't have hurt either. Someone more knowledgeable of his streams content might want to fill me in on whether I am correct here or not as I am not a frequent watcher of his streams.
I don't know if this is how Day[9] feels, but I can't play SC (1 or 2) without playing seriously. Like REALLY seriously...
Trying to play five 1v1s every few months... I can't do that. When I quit BW in 2007 to play poker, I quit 100%, probably went a couple of years before I even played a game. When I quit SC2 in 2012, same story.
I got to high masters a couple of times in HotS by just spending a couple of weeks playing super seriously and studying builds etc (actually in some ways more systematically than I did as a pro) and then quit again because it takes too much time, and I can't play the game without taking it super seriously.
I love BW more than any other game I've ever played, but because I don't have time to play the game seriously I don't play at all (I hope I'll find some time to play but I don't have high hopes)
Maybe it's something similar for Day[9].
seriously... I was never great at bw... but it scares me how much i would need to dedicate myself to find enjoyment in playing again. I am allowing myself to enjoy the ASL and will probably pick up SC:R.. Still... its hard to explain this to friends that never knew about bw, or competitive gaming.
On April 16 2017 08:38 c3rberUs wrote: I like how nina completely and utterly derailed this thread with one simple post. Even admins got pulled into it haha.
she always had that talent i guess. And she was so sorry about it later xD
The idea that 'they could have at least played a couple games a year or whatever', that's nonsense too. Bw is no fun to pick up for two games every 4 months, especially if you're used to playing on a high level. And while yeah, the scene wasn't 'dead' from 2010-2016, but the activity isn't remotely comparable to how it was between 2007-2009, and for anyone living in a western country, the money you could possibly make from bw is completely negligible. Winning _every single_ defiler.ru tournament between 2010 and 2013 would make you what, $5000? Add every other tourney outside korea, I guess you can double that?
I am unsure whether that relates to my comments, as I wasn't quoted, but in the case it was something that I wrote to provoke this response, I think there's some misinterpretation going on that I want to clarify.
In relation to day9: The idea that I shared is that his tweets should not be praised as BW content. He can play any game he wants, and he can make a living out of everything he chooses to. He streams frequently. It only comes natural to wonder why he didn't discuss any BW on his stream for so long. Analyzing in-depth some series he really really liked on his stream once in a while wouldn't require too much time and resource involvement on his part and IMO wouldn't diminish his chances of making a living out of whatever he wants to. The "a couple of games/discussions every 3-6 months" apply here, and not to the foreigner scene part.
in relation to the foreigner BW scene 2010-2015:
Offline - there were absolutely no major LAN BW international events. (edit: besides the WCG 2010 which unfortunately had very low amount of BW players involved)
Online - I do not argue that in this time period there were enough BW online tournaments to make a living out of BW. In terms of BW history, there were plently of sponsored tournaments online for foreigners in this time period even though the prizepools were relatively smaller. Mashing together the lack of offline events with the online foreigner scene by labeling the foreigner scene as a whole "completely dead" sounded disrespectful to me. I think ret meant no disrespect here and could have said it in a better, more respectful way.
I think you're perfectly reasonable. I wasn't really addressing you specifically, saw a version of the sentiment from a couple posters, and perhaps 'nonsense' is a bit too strong of a word. Sure, you can ask 'why didn't he stream any bw for so long if he loves it so much', but it's like, with Day, he has produced so much content for the game and expressed so much love for the game that questioning his motives completely misses the mark.
As for the second part of your post, I didn't mean to make it sound like bw from 2007-2009 (or foreign bw since 2000 anyway) had a lot of money or a better tournament scene. But it did have a considerably more active nonkorean ladder scene, more players, and although numbers have been increasing lately, bigger viewership numbers.I disagree with it being completely dead after, but I can see how it would feel that way. For me, my friend lists would go from 15 online in 2008 to 0 online in 2010. With that impression, it's kinda fair to perceive it as dead, even if that's (unintentionally) insulting towards the players who kept playing competitive bw at a high level.
On April 16 2017 08:38 c3rberUs wrote: I like how nina completely and utterly derailed this thread with one simple post. Even admins got pulled into it haha.
she always had that talent i guess. And she was so sorry about it later xD
I may have inadvertently ripped off a bandage, so to speak, in the StarCraft community that I wasn't aware of. I had to apologize, because what I said sounded really fucked-up when I read it later, so I had to come back and apologize and explain myself.
On April 16 2017 08:38 c3rberUs wrote: I like how nina completely and utterly derailed this thread with one simple post. Even admins got pulled into it haha.
she always had that talent i guess. And she was so sorry about it later xD
I may have inadvertently ripped off a bandage, so to speak, in the StarCraft community that I wasn't aware of. I had to apologize, because what I said sounded really fucked-up when I read it later, so I had to come back and apologize and explain myself.
Yea I think the problem is that while it was directed at Day[9] your post inadvertently poked at everyone who has left BW for Sc2 and/or other games
tbh it started a discussion that needed to happen at some point.
On April 16 2017 08:38 c3rberUs wrote: I like how nina completely and utterly derailed this thread with one simple post. Even admins got pulled into it haha.
she always had that talent i guess. And she was so sorry about it later xD
I may have inadvertently ripped off a bandage, so to speak, in the StarCraft community that I wasn't aware of. I had to apologize, because what I said sounded really fucked-up when I read it later, so I had to come back and apologize and explain myself.
Yea I think the problem is that while it was directed at Day[9] your post inadvertently poked at everyone who has left BW for Sc2 and/or other games
tbh it started a discussion that needed to happen at some point.
that's fine Nina. But i agree with Emulator about this discussion being necessary. It still will be for some time i think, this aint the last thread where this subject will find it's way into i imagine.
this guy got me into Starcraft in the first place. The first time I googled "learn Starcraft", I found his videos and was hooked in a matter of minutes. Then I found out that progamers and Starcraft competitions exist, from his videos. It's because of him tha I went to Korea and saw a competitional eSports game, LIVE in a Korean studio, for the first time in my life.
Day9 I <3 u forever, cant wait to see you do SC content again, this comeback is fantastic news!!!
On April 16 2017 08:38 c3rberUs wrote: I like how nina completely and utterly derailed this thread with one simple post. Even admins got pulled into it haha.
she always had that talent i guess. And she was so sorry about it later xD
I may have inadvertently ripped off a bandage, so to speak, in the StarCraft community that I wasn't aware of. I had to apologize, because what I said sounded really fucked-up when I read it later, so I had to come back and apologize and explain myself.
Yea I think the problem is that while it was directed at Day[9] your post inadvertently poked at everyone who has left BW for Sc2 and/or other games
tbh it started a discussion that needed to happen at some point.
its like an ex-gf that slowly choked to death, bf leave her for dead and never cared about her anymore, someone else come by and slowly resuscitates her to full life over the course of several years, bf heards about it, shove resuscitator aside and reclaims ex-gf
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
On April 16 2017 09:40 Probemicro wrote: its like an ex-gf that slowly choked to death, bf leave her for dead and never cared about her anymore, someone else come by and slowly resuscitates her to full life over the course of several years, bf heards about it, shove resuscitator aside and reclaims ex-gf
Here's a better "analogy": - Players play a game for years that they love for very little money, if any at all - Sequel to game comes out that allows players to grow in their careers and offers a nice source of income to allow them to provide for themselves and family members - Game creator announces they are developing a remaster for the original game, players come back to game they played for years and love
On April 16 2017 09:40 Probemicro wrote: its like an ex-gf that slowly choked to death, bf leave her for dead and never cared about her anymore, someone else come by and slowly resuscitates her to full life over the course of several years, bf heards about it, shove resuscitator aside and reclaims ex-gf
Here's a better "analogy": - Players play a game for years that they love for very little money, if any at all - Sequel to game comes out that allows players to grow in their careers and offers a nice source of income to allow them to provide for themselves and family members - Game creator announces they are developing a remaster for the original game, players come back to game they played for years and love
the bf could have come back on check on her/try to get help from time to time but no he didn't. and if that "someone" didn't come over to resuscitate the scene there wouldn't even be a BW to come back to in the first place.
so no i only see someone who failed to grasp my analogy
On April 16 2017 09:40 Probemicro wrote: its like an ex-gf that slowly choked to death, bf leave her for dead and never cared about her anymore, someone else come by and slowly resuscitates her to full life over the course of several years, bf heards about it, shove resuscitator aside and reclaims ex-gf
Here's a better "analogy": - Players play a game for years that they love for very little money, if any at all - Sequel to game comes out that allows players to grow in their careers and offers a nice source of income to allow them to provide for themselves and family members - Game creator announces they are developing a remaster for the original game, players come back to game they played for years and love
the bf could have come back on check on her/try to get help from time to time but no he didn't. and if that "someone" didn't come over to resuscitate the scene there wouldn't even be a BW to come back to in the first place.
so no i only see someone who failed to grasp my analogy
He didn't try and grasp it, he said here's a better one.
I don't get all of the vitriol in this thread, but maybe I've just been watching from the "outside" too much, having really only kept up with ASL. Even then, I don't get the smug elitism. Somehow the people who are upset that "he didn't do enough for BW" would find a way to complain even if he had done a stream once in a blue moon on BW. That's just sadly the way it is.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
You need to be disingenuous to be popular on the internet. As a general principle, using the broad sense of the word, I am sure that holds. At least I don't know any exceptions, and I have been using the internet since 1996.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
YUP.
It's really really frustrating reading TL these days.. EsportsJohn literally defending the argument that a "civil" discussion can be had as to whether or not Day9 myself and others have any right being excited about BW:R jesus.
The attitude of the die hard BW fans here and on reddit is gross and frankly makes me glad I did move on.. lol. nevermind earning a living I don't want to be one of those people that literally calls out the intentions of people like day9 when they say they are excited about making content for a game they LOVE.. which nobody is disputing. They are literally mad that that love didn't keep them from expanding their careers.
Anyways I shouldn't be surprised.. Cele is dense and the moderation here has been bad for awhile. I posted nearly 30k times on this forum and in the last 2-3 years I've posted what, 30 times? Yeah...
Girlfriends choking to death? Hyperbole much? Geez. I am also very glad to the second Plott brother come back. It's not like he's jumping on to a cash cow or gravy train or whatever figurative language you want to use. It will likely be more popular that it is now; him jumping back will get more eyeballs back on BW. I mean, heck I loved the old Day9 BW Dailies, so getting anything similar will be lovely. But thinking this is disingenuous? C'mon.
On April 16 2017 10:31 Eridanus wrote: Now now, let's not call the TL moderation 'bad', shall we. They have nothing to do with this. Just calm down a bit.
psssssssst
you joined TL.net 8 days ago.
Give it at least another week before you start speaking on behalf of moderation or telling people to chill
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
YUP.
It's really really frustrating reading TL these days.. EsportsJohn literally defending the argument that a "civil" discussion can be had as to whether or not Day9 myself and others have any right being excited about BW:R jesus.
The attitude of the die hard BW fans here and on reddit is gross and frankly makes me glad I did move on.. lol. nevermind earning a living I don't want to be one of those people that literally calls out the intentions of people like day9 when they say they are excited about making content for a game they LOVE.. which nobody is disputing. They are literally mad that that love didn't keep them from expanding their careers.
Anyways I shouldn't be surprised.. Cele is dense and the moderation here has been bad for awhile. I posted nearly 30k times on this forum and in the last 2-3 years I've posted what, 30 times? Yeah...
In this post you are overreacting just as much as everyone else in here. Everybody should calm the fuck down...
Day9 is more than welcome back to BW and everyone agrees on that.
So, why are people still going nuts? Case is closed... maybe this thread should too.
On April 16 2017 10:31 Eridanus wrote: Now now, let's not call the TL moderation 'bad', shall we. They have nothing to do with this. Just calm down a bit.
psssssssst
you joined TL.net 8 days ago.
Give it at least another week before you start speaking on behalf of moderation or telling people to chill
You are right. TL was more fun back when moderators here banned you for two weeks after you threw some silly temper tantrum.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
YUP.
It's really really frustrating reading TL these days.. EsportsJohn literally defending the argument that a "civil" discussion can be had as to whether or not Day9 myself and others have any right being excited about BW:R jesus.
The attitude of the die hard BW fans here and on reddit is gross and frankly makes me glad I did move on.. lol. nevermind earning a living I don't want to be one of those people that literally calls out the intentions of people like day9 when they say they are excited about making content for a game they LOVE.. which nobody is disputing. They are literally mad that that love didn't keep them from expanding their careers.
Anyways I shouldn't be surprised.. Cele is dense and the moderation here has been bad for awhile. I posted nearly 30k times on this forum and in the last 2-3 years I've posted what, 30 times? Yeah...
I have to jump in there and suggest that the actions of a small, vocal minority don't really constitute the "die hard BW fans".
Many of the posts on this thread have been pretty sensible, as are most of the die hard BW fans. It feels to me that easily 80% or more of the active BW posters are just long term fans that really enjoy playing BW, and the TL BW community has by and large been one of the most friendly and quality communities I've associated with.
That aside, I'm glad this thread went the direction it did. It was a discussion that needed to happen at some point.
On April 16 2017 10:31 Eridanus wrote: Now now, let's not call the TL moderation 'bad', shall we. They have nothing to do with this. Just calm down a bit.
psssssssst
you joined TL.net 8 days ago.
Give it at least another week before you start speaking on behalf of moderation or telling people to chill
You are right. TL was more fun back when moderators here banned you for two weeks after you threw some silly temper tantrum.
Just drop it. This thread is good news and yet it is going down into a hell hole.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
YUP.
It's really really frustrating reading TL these days.. EsportsJohn literally defending the argument that a "civil" discussion can be had as to whether or not Day9 myself and others have any right being excited about BW:R jesus.
The attitude of the die hard BW fans here and on reddit is gross and frankly makes me glad I did move on.. lol. nevermind earning a living I don't want to be one of those people that literally calls out the intentions of people like day9 when they say they are excited about making content for a game they LOVE.. which nobody is disputing. They are literally mad that that love didn't keep them from expanding their careers.
Anyways I shouldn't be surprised.. Cele is dense and the moderation here has been bad for awhile. I posted nearly 30k times on this forum and in the last 2-3 years I've posted what, 30 times? Yeah...
I have to jump in there and suggest that the actions of a small, vocal minority don't really constitute the "die hard BW fans".
Many of the posts on this thread have been pretty sensible, as are most of the die hard BW fans. It feels to me that easily 80% or more of the active BW posters are just long term fans that really enjoy playing BW, and the TL BW community has by and large been one of the most friendly and quality communities I've associated with.
That aside, I'm glad this thread went the direction it did. It was a discussion that needed to happen at some point.
Completely fair to say. I shouldn't be lax when describing a large group.. it is a vocal minority. My point though (which I should have been more clear on) is that it isn't just a small group of minorities though.. there is a significant chunk of a (albeit, still small) group that DOES feel this strange angst and it has been coming out in threads for months. As a person that has been around BW traveling and competing at the highest non korean levels before these guys even sniffed the game it riles me up pretty hard..
not an excuse though you're right.. there are perfectly fine "hard core fans" who are conducting themselves 100% reasonably.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
YUP.
It's really really frustrating reading TL these days.. EsportsJohn literally defending the argument that a "civil" discussion can be had as to whether or not Day9 myself and others have any right being excited about BW:R jesus.
The attitude of the die hard BW fans here and on reddit is gross and frankly makes me glad I did move on.. lol. nevermind earning a living I don't want to be one of those people that literally calls out the intentions of people like day9 when they say they are excited about making content for a game they LOVE.. which nobody is disputing. They are literally mad that that love didn't keep them from expanding their careers.
Anyways I shouldn't be surprised.. Cele is dense and the moderation here has been bad for awhile. I posted nearly 30k times on this forum and in the last 2-3 years I've posted what, 30 times? Yeah...
In this post you are overreacting just as much as everyone else in here. Everybody should calm the fuck down...
Day9 is more than welcome back to BW and everyone agrees on that.
So, why are people still going nuts? Case is closed... maybe this thread should too.
SEAN, WE WANT YOU! <3<3
edit: adding hearts!
The difference is I am "overreacting" telling people to not attack my peers and friends for wanting to do BW content and they are "overreacting" because Day9 announced he will make content and some are using that as an opportunity to attack him.
I could calm down sure.. but I'd actually think it fine and fair to be upset in my situation.
On April 16 2017 10:31 Eridanus wrote: Now now, let's not call the TL moderation 'bad', shall we. They have nothing to do with this. Just calm down a bit.
psssssssst
you joined TL.net 8 days ago.
Give it at least another week before you start speaking on behalf of moderation or telling people to chill
You are right. TL was more fun back when moderators here banned you for two weeks after you threw some silly temper tantrum.
You were banned and made a new account right? Does that irony not blow you out of the water here or?
I could calm down sure.. but I'd actually think it fine and fair to be upset in my situation.
Well sure- I'm upset that this thread turned out the way it did. I get really, really annoyed with level of scrutiny people put into judging a big name's motivation for switching away and back to BW.
But you are painting the BW community with a rather large brush, lashing out at TL moderation etc- I mean if there's problems with moderating this thread, you of all people know the drill- report the offending posts or take it up with website feedback.
> Dragoon movement speed increased by 5 > Reaver's orb is no longer disjointable > Fixed a problem with zerglings being able to pass through structures
I could calm down sure.. but I'd actually think it fine and fair to be upset in my situation.
Well sure- I'm upset that this thread turned out the way it did. I get really, really annoyed with level of scrutiny people put into judging a big name's motivation for switching away and back to BW.
But you are painting the BW community with a rather large brush, lashing out at TL moderation etc- I mean if there's problems with moderating this thread, you of all people know the drill- report the offending posts or take it up with website feedback.
Yeah as I said that brush I painted this thread with was bad and I clarified my point.
The post you're responding to could use some focus as well I guess?
Not fair to say ALL moderation is bad. Some of you do a great job. I will just be honest and tell you that for people like myself who have been around here for more than 13 years the "general level of moderation" is very different and I personally would describe it as worse.
I don't care to go waaaaaaaaay in depth on it but you're right it isn't fair to throw out a generic complaint like that and then not explain myself.
Well, this thread certainly went in a different direction than the OP anticipated. For my part, I think it's cool to see Day9 wanting to make BW content again. I honestly never watched much of his videos, BW or SCII despite realizing they are treasures in the eyes of many fans. I preferred to just play the game, watch vods and come to my own conclusions regarding how to play the various matchups etc... However, if they are as good as I've heard, I'm sure they will be helpful to new and old BW fans.
Now, in terms of this current discussion going on, I think both sides should just calm down for a bit. I have no issues with any of the older casters or players coming back to cast/play BW again. They are well within their right to do as they wish, not like anyone has a monopoly on the game or can dictate who does what. I also disagree with this idea of them ditching BW. Rather, I'm looking at it from an economical perspective. They have to make a living so it only makes sense that they did what was viable for their livelihood. Maybe it's because I'm not really attached to any of them so I don't feel this 'betrayal', dunno really.
However, what I have issues with is comments like this game is so dead or has been dead etc... These are terrible comments that don't lend to a good discussion. Foreign BW fell in terms of activity, sure but the game never died. ICCup still had players and has been increasing since those dark years. TL has continued to provide great coverage since the SSL days with all the drama around them. We've all followed the rise and fall of SSL, KSL, watched player steams on snipealot, the return of old stars, people translated interviews, people participated in LR threads and organized tournaments including TLC, TLS and defiler etc... The scene was reduced in size because many left after the last OSL but the passion was still there.
If anything, you can even argue that the passion was stronger in some ways. Only someone who was contributing at the time and putting a lot of effort into doing so will understand just how bad it feels to spend a ton of time writing/casting something only to get so many views/comments or viewers. This extends to any and all contributors. Really, the only thing you were running on is passion for the game and hoping that, that article or cast you did will help introduce more players into the community. I personally think it's insulting that a lot of the people who stuck around and contributed seem to be brushed aside in a way. Not saying it's purposeful but they get overshadowed in these discussions.
People like Bisudagger, Sayle etc... who put a ton of time and effort casting every tournament and in BD's case, even looking and finding sponsors on top of hosting his own shows and making deals etc... It's easy for someone who rarely follows the scene anymore to completely gloss over this stuff. Anyways, I think overall, having Day9 back can only be good for the scene but I do ask that anyone who has come back to the community to give their due respects to those people who hung in there and have constantly worked for the benefit of the community despite the bleak outlook during those times. Personally, I think TL and the community in general would've been in a much worse shape if no one decided to do anything.
Amazing news, I never though SC:R was going to bring in so many more new people!I mean even if it's for a short time it can only be good. As for the rest, Drone won the thread with his first post imo.
Something a lot of people forget is that Brood War was more than just the game. The community, the wcg usa online drama, random x17 arguments, wdt, who was dodging who, people threatening to fight at lans, maybe even this thread, etc. were also a big draw. People kept coming back to Brood War because they made so many friends (and enemies) on b.net. With Starcraft 2's release, most made the switch because that's what their friends (and enemies) did. Even Blizzard didn't get this which is why so many people were pissed about the gutted chat channels.
You may question why Day 9 didn't return before this, but the fact that others are returning almost certainly plays a big role. Who wants to return to a game when your /f l is 25 offline names?
If I am putting words in anyone's mouth I apologize.
On April 16 2017 11:35 BigFan wrote: Well, this thread certainly went in a different direction than the OP anticipated. For my part, I think it's cool to see Day9 wanting to make BW content again. I honestly never watched much of his videos, BW or SCII despite realizing they are treasures in the eyes of many fans. I preferred to just play the game, watch vods and come to my own conclusions regarding how to play the various matchups etc... However, if they are as good as I've heard, I'm sure they will be helpful to new and old BW fans.
Now, in terms of this current discussion going on, I think both sides should just calm down for a bit. I have no issues with any of the older casters or players coming back to cast/play BW again. They are well within their right to do as they wish, not like anyone has a monopoly on the game or can dictate who does what. I also disagree with this idea of them ditching BW. Rather, I'm looking at it from an economical perspective. They have to make a living so it only makes sense that they did what was viable for their livelihood. Maybe it's because I'm not really attached to any of them so I don't feel this 'betrayal', dunno really.
However, what I have issues with is comments like this game is so dead or has been dead etc... These are terrible comments that don't lend to a good discussion. Foreign BW fell in terms of activity, sure but the game never died. ICCup still had players and has been increasing since those dark years. TL has continued to provide great coverage since the SSL days with all the drama around them. We've all followed the rise and fall of SSL, KSL, watched player steams on snipealot, the return of old stars, people translated interviews, people participated in LR threads and organized tournaments including TLC, TLS and defiler etc... The scene was reduced in size because many left after the last OSL but the passion was still there.
If anything, you can even argue that the passion was stronger in some ways. Only someone who was contributing at the time and putting a lot of effort into doing so will understand just how bad it feels to spend a ton of time writing/casting something only to get so many views/comments or viewers. This extends to any and all contributors. Really, the only thing you were running on is passion for the game and hoping that, that article or cast you did will help introduce more players into the community. I personally think it's insulting that a lot of the people who stuck around and contributed seem to be brushed aside in a way. Not saying it's purposeful but they get overshadowed in these discussions.
People like Bisudagger, Sayle etc... who put a ton of time and effort casting every tournament and in BD's case, even looking and finding sponsors on top of hosting his own shows and making deals etc... It's easy for someone who rarely follows the scene anymore to completely gloss over this stuff. Anyways, I think overall, having Day9 back can only be good for the scene but I do ask that anyone who has come back to the community to give their due respects to those people who hung in there and have constantly worked for the benefit of the community despite the bleak outlook during those times. Personally, I think TL and the community in general would've been in a much worse shape if no one decided to do anything.
Holy shit... What the fuck happened to this thread?!
A simple thread about Day[9] planning on making content about BW derailed into a BW vs SC2 shit-storm again?! Damn people... Why can't we enjoy multiple things? Where is the damn rule that someone HAS to love and enjoy BW only and can never move on to anything else? Where is the rule that says that person can't come back to BW later on?
Good god... Look at all these TL staff people and former staff people coming in here to defend Day[9] and shit... Keep this under control or this thread's going to get locked.
On April 16 2017 11:35 BigFan wrote: However, what I have issues with is comments like this game is so dead or has been dead etc...
I think it's actually true from their point of view though. The game WAS actually dead for people like Tastosis etc., they weren't really playing or following the scene. It is also true for a lot of people (casuals) who stopped playing/watching for various reasons. And of course there is no blame there, and can only be good that they are coming back.
I welcome Tastosis and Day9 and If SC:R flops and ratings are bad and they move to another new game that's understandable as well. They've moved on in life unlike me who seemingly cant let go of this game haha
On April 16 2017 12:01 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I welcome Tastosis and Day9 and If SC:R flops and ratings are bad and they move to another new game that's understandable as well. They've moved on in life unlike me who seemingly cant let go of this game haha
I mean, all they're doing to BW is making improvements, and they sat down with TBLS at least to ensure everything was acceptable, I can't see this doing anything to hurt the community. If anything it will just add new blood and renewed interest, and probably have at least a few big korean tournaments. We don't really have much to lose, because people playing it right now are playing/supporting the scene and game purely out of passion, and I can't see this somehow making their passion fade.
I also don't understand the hate for Day[9] coming back. I mean, sure, I wish he used his massive fame and following to make some "let's get into broodwar" videos before this, injecting new interest and players into the community, but it's better late than never. After he stopped doing SC2 (and even during), people followed him mostly for his personality. And while I think his on-camera persona got pretty flanderized, I think his genuine love for Broodwar is going to keep people watching, and seeing him wax poetically about the game is going to make a lot of people want to give it a try. Especially given the fact that he's explicit about it being hard, and that the mechanics are the real game. New players will be coming in with a proper mindset as opposed to people on reddit wanting pathing, MBS, infinite unit select, etc, added in.
As someone who has only followed the Korean scene, I don't know much about Day[9]. Here's my very perverse (and perverted?) take on things.
I really want him to be an evil capitalist with zero passion whose decision to return to BW is driven purely by information on profitability.
Why? Because that would mean that BW is on the rise in a big way.
I am going to be sad if he came back due to the reawakening of his passion because that would not be a very informative signal of BW's health at all. Sadly, everything I read here suggests that Day[9] has rediscovered his passion and is not an evil capitalist.
I for one welcome any new capitalist overlords, for their investments are always informative about the likelihoods of events I care about.
I find it weird that some people are obsessed by broodwar but never even played at a high level....
Like who cares if you stayed all those years on broodwar playing a few UMS here and there and watching pro games lol, we never cared about these people, the reason we left broodwar is because everybody was leaving, every good active competitor in the foreign scene. As previous people said, when you join bnet and everyone on your friend list is always offline it gets quite boring and feels completely dead.
On April 16 2017 08:17 EsportsJohn wrote: I think to paraphrase what Cele is trying to say: it feels a bit disingenuous when famous figures/casters jump on the SC:R hype train as if they were still equally as interested in it during the 7 or some odd years when they weren't in the scene.
If your first reaction is to point out how disingenuous it feels and how that's an issue, then you have a fucking problem
YUP.
It's really really frustrating reading TL these days.. EsportsJohn literally defending the argument that a "civil" discussion can be had as to whether or not Day9 myself and others have any right being excited about BW:R jesus.
The attitude of the die hard BW fans here and on reddit is gross and frankly makes me glad I did move on.. lol. nevermind earning a living I don't want to be one of those people that literally calls out the intentions of people like day9 when they say they are excited about making content for a game they LOVE.. which nobody is disputing. They are literally mad that that love didn't keep them from expanding their careers.
Anyways I shouldn't be surprised.. Cele is dense and the moderation here has been bad for awhile. I posted nearly 30k times on this forum and in the last 2-3 years I've posted what, 30 times? Yeah...
I have to jump in there and suggest that the actions of a small, vocal minority don't really constitute the "die hard BW fans".
Many of the posts on this thread have been pretty sensible, as are most of the die hard BW fans. It feels to me that easily 80% or more of the active BW posters are just long term fans that really enjoy playing BW, and the TL BW community has by and large been one of the most friendly and quality communities I've associated with.
That aside, I'm glad this thread went the direction it did. It was a discussion that needed to happen at some point.
Completely fair to say. I shouldn't be lax when describing a large group.. it is a vocal minority. My point though (which I should have been more clear on) is that it isn't just a small group of minorities though.. there is a significant chunk of a (albeit, still small) group that DOES feel this strange angst and it has been coming out in threads for months. As a person that has been around BW traveling and competing at the highest non korean levels before these guys even sniffed the game it riles me up pretty hard..
not an excuse though you're right.. there are perfectly fine "hard core fans" who are conducting themselves 100% reasonably.
Yea, I can imagine that would be...yea....unpleasant.
Lets look at it this way. People don't have a problem with a new BW player coming in, playing the game, streaming, or making content. People like BRoyal, Ty2, Sero, etc. are relatively new top tier foreigners and nobody has a problem with their content. Nor do people have a problem with oldschool BW players like Sziky or TechnicS.
I also don't think people have a problem with people coming from other games. If some guy that played LoL before came, started playing BW, and then made some cool videos my suspicions are everyone would enjoy the videos. Indeed I know Sero came initially from SC2 and nobody had any issues.
So what's making people upset? 2000 era BW players returning to BW, and to a lesser extent new casters/players suddenly casting big events (which I somewhat can understand, especially if the knowledge/casting is weak). The common denominator: large fanbases from other games.
I think two things are at work:
1)Latent SC2 animosity stemming from the "blizzard actively tried to kill BW" concept that gets tossed about, that then colors peoples perceptions of anything SC2 related. If you've never heard or played BW it's on thing to try it, but people with strong feelings this way seem to take switching to playing primarily SC2 instead of BW as an act of betrayal.
2) "Purism" for lack of a better word. There is a group of BW players that more or less treat BW as being the only competitive game you are allowed to play. To play anything else means that you're not really a true BW fan (TM), and just trying to "use" BW for some purpose. The people that think like this hold a belief that BW should only be played for personal enjoyment and the beauty of the game, and not in any way commercialized. This is also the group that I think is giving the most animosity to the 2000 era foreigners, because they see those players are coming in trying to draw viewers with BW or use it as a cash grab.
I don't really understand #2 in all honestly. Does it really matter if someone wants to use BW as a vehicle for more viewers, or to make money? I'd argue no. It doesn't hurt or impact any BW player, and in truth can only serve to expose more people to the game.
Person A played BW for 15 years and never touched another game. Person B played BW, then SC2, then returned for SC:R.
These are just personal choices, what games to enjoy. Person A does not deserve more "credit" or something simply for choosing to be monogamous to a hobby. There is no need to feel superior to others because you chose to be "faithful" to one, because games are not sports teams or relationships. Everyone should be happy people are playing BW again.
edit: also saw the hotbid post above and couldn't agree more. Let's all just be happy and realize we love the same game here. Who cares who loves it the most.
I'm glad day9 is returning, his very old lecture series that he left behind is VERY insightful and helpfull and i still use some of those key points to this day, i dont know why you guys are hating a guy who has spent alot of time on helping the community. I'm hoping he'll get to release the same caliber videos as he did back then
I read this thread, more and more curious as to how people could justify shaming day9 and returning brood war personalities but it just became too hard to read. I use to read the forums all the time as a teenager and I guess I'm a bit jaded to have expected the community to be more rational and optimistic. Being one of those people who left cause the game felt dead but didn't like SC2, even i feel somewhat alienated by the community merely by the fact that I stopped playing. To each their own, knowing my own reasons for leaving, I can't crucify anyone for moving on, be it to play SC2 or otherwise. I would have to commend those that continued to play, it's just something that I couldn't push myself to do in 2010. I personally would welcome new and old players and personalities now, with everyone coming back having learned a lot outside of Brood War applying their resources on it's potential popularity in the modern day.
I wonder if he'll do any Funday Monday casts. I think that one of the big missing parts of BW historically is that only super serious things get any screen time (unless you are Nony). It would be fun if Day[9] showed off some of the less serious side of BW like all the crazy UMS or some hunters games or just trolling in ranked. (Anyone still have a version of Strip Idra?)
Also, does anyone else feel nostalgic at seeing Incontrol back yelling at people in the BW forum?
This is great news. I have a buddy who perceives Brood War to be too hard to get into but probably will give it a try now as a day9 Fan. I'm sure there are others like him.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember anyone making high level "tutorial" style brood war vids at such a consistent rate (for a newb like me) as day9 back in the day. I remember chill made a few dank ones, but other than that there was combat ex recording another fpvod and the like
I just had a thought: can it be that Blizzard didn't allow Day9 and other ex-BW guys do anything related to BW during 2010-201* ? We need to hear from them!
On April 16 2017 15:17 Hot_Bid wrote: Person A played BW for 15 years and never touched another game. Person B played BW, then SC2, then returned for SC:R.
These are just personal choices, what games to enjoy. Person A does not deserve more "credit" or something simply for choosing to be monogamous to a hobby. There is no need to feel superior to others because you chose to be "faithful" to one, because games are not sports teams or relationships. Everyone should be happy people are playing BW again.
I think half of the posts were interpreted with accusations that simply aren't there, the cele vs. incontrol line is the prime example of this, even tho I really do not get why incontrol needs to explode in the manner he does. If that continues you'll be dealing with a self fullfilling prophecy: people are angry, because they want to be angry.
I assume most, for the lack of a better words, negative posts either want to point out the foreign scene wasn't so dead, or that they want the old Day9 style back, that went very well without feeling that his content was trying too hard on the hype part. I really don't see how that should be offending. Nor does this mean anyone is angry Day9 comes back (or anyone else on that matter).
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
I'd be fine with, let's say Tasteless saying" Broodwar is a great game, tho i personally like Game XY more." If that's an honest sentiment, it's more meaningful to me then what they cater to us.
this would never happen, and I don't think anybody would be fine with that kind of statement (on air) either.
On April 16 2017 13:21 ROOTFayth wrote: I find it weird that some people are obsessed by broodwar but never even played at a high level....
Like who cares if you stayed all those years on broodwar playing a few UMS here and there and watching pro games lol, we never cared about these people, the reason we left broodwar is because everybody was leaving, every good active competitor in the foreign scene. As previous people said, when you join bnet and everyone on your friend list is always offline it gets quite boring and feels completely dead.
Are you really that dense? People don't have to be the best at things to enjoy them and you aren't more important than the people playing BGH/UMS.
On April 16 2017 13:21 ROOTFayth wrote: I find it weird that some people are obsessed by broodwar but never even played at a high level....
Like who cares if you stayed all those years on broodwar playing a few UMS here and there and watching pro games lol, we never cared about these people, the reason we left broodwar is because everybody was leaving, every good active competitor in the foreign scene. As previous people said, when you join bnet and everyone on your friend list is always offline it gets quite boring and feels completely dead.
Are you really that dense? People don't have to be the best at things to enjoy them and you aren't more important than the people playing BGH/UMS.
I think why many people whom left BW for SC2 (including myself) are defending Day9 is because the accusations are directed towards all of us. The frustration stems from, at least for me, that you seem to think that you are entitled to some sort of an applause because you stuck with BW all this time. No one on the "opposite side" is demanding any applause for the amount of hard work they kept putting into BW for 10+ years (1999 - 2009) to keep the game floating in the western world (excluding S Korea here) and this is why this feels like a giant slap in the fucking face to be frank.
This is not a pissing contest nor should it be, but somehow I cant shake the feeling that we (as in the people who left for sc2) have to prove our worth to be accepted into a community we all helped to build long before any of the people who kept it going after sc2s release was even here.
This is all fucking absurd. We all love Brood War for the beautiful and awesome game it was and still is. We all have memories we will cheerish for the rest of our lives due to the game. Let us just cheerish what Brood War is instead of making it into a competition of whom contributed more to the scene or not. Let us stop attacking people personally with accusations that have no real basis in reality. It saddens me to see people attacking FrozenArbiter for example implying he wasnt "good enough" for BW and thus moved on. FA was one of the heaviest contributors to TL.net and one of the most passionate and skilled foreigners that existed. He was one of few who would actually practice with and get accepted into South korean clans. Making accusations like this is just mean and shows that the person claiming this really has no clue.
A lot of people in this thread are making the argument that the people who have been gone for years cant know the hard work that others had to put in to keep BW going these years. The same argument can be applied to Day9, Artosis, or FrozenArbiter. You literally have no clue about the work these people put in. So please, lets just respect both sides and the work each respective side put into the game we all love and end this ridiculously childish debate.
I think everything is a big missunderstood.i cant think a single person that will be unhappy having day9 making bw content again,i still remember when i pmed him in my noob years that my english was pretty bad and couldnt really understand most of things he explained in the zvt mech daily,he was nice enough to send me a replay and explaining few points.to be honest i thought nina reply was a troll.but yeah im very happy he is back to home!
On April 16 2017 17:33 mca64Launcher_ wrote: Sc2 > bw
Thank you.
Obviously. I don't understand how these barbarians can deal with having their army and all their buildings on more than a single hotkey. I tried broodwar and I had to move my hand; it was painful because I'm used to my wrist getting stuck to my desk because T is the furthest you should ever have to reach... I think I tore some skin off.
On April 16 2017 11:35 BigFan wrote: Well, this thread certainly went in a different direction than the OP anticipated. For my part, I think it's cool to see Day9 wanting to make BW content again. I honestly never watched much of his videos, BW or SCII despite realizing they are treasures in the eyes of many fans. I preferred to just play the game, watch vods and come to my own conclusions regarding how to play the various matchups etc... However, if they are as good as I've heard, I'm sure they will be helpful to new and old BW fans.
Now, in terms of this current discussion going on, I think both sides should just calm down for a bit. I have no issues with any of the older casters or players coming back to cast/play BW again. They are well within their right to do as they wish, not like anyone has a monopoly on the game or can dictate who does what. I also disagree with this idea of them ditching BW. Rather, I'm looking at it from an economical perspective. They have to make a living so it only makes sense that they did what was viable for their livelihood. Maybe it's because I'm not really attached to any of them so I don't feel this 'betrayal', dunno really.
However, what I have issues with is comments like this game is so dead or has been dead etc... These are terrible comments that don't lend to a good discussion. Foreign BW fell in terms of activity, sure but the game never died. ICCup still had players and has been increasing since those dark years. TL has continued to provide great coverage since the SSL days with all the drama around them. We've all followed the rise and fall of SSL, KSL, watched player steams on snipealot, the return of old stars, people translated interviews, people participated in LR threads and organized tournaments including TLC, TLS and defiler etc... The scene was reduced in size because many left after the last OSL but the passion was still there.
If anything, you can even argue that the passion was stronger in some ways. Only someone who was contributing at the time and putting a lot of effort into doing so will understand just how bad it feels to spend a ton of time writing/casting something only to get so many views/comments or viewers. This extends to any and all contributors. Really, the only thing you were running on is passion for the game and hoping that, that article or cast you did will help introduce more players into the community. I personally think it's insulting that a lot of the people who stuck around and contributed seem to be brushed aside in a way. Not saying it's purposeful but they get overshadowed in these discussions.
People like Bisudagger, Sayle etc... who put a ton of time and effort casting every tournament and in BD's case, even looking and finding sponsors on top of hosting his own shows and making deals etc... It's easy for someone who rarely follows the scene anymore to completely gloss over this stuff. Anyways, I think overall, having Day9 back can only be good for the scene but I do ask that anyone who has come back to the community to give their due respects to those people who hung in there and have constantly worked for the benefit of the community despite the bleak outlook during those times. Personally, I think TL and the community in general would've been in a much worse shape if no one decided to do anything.
i don't know about both sides, i haven't read all posts on all behalfs here. But let me say this:
I came into this thread and stated, that the return of Day9/Tastosis is highly appreciated by me, i said that multiple times. I said as well and i stand by it, that it feels a bit disingenuous how they act as if they were never gone. I said multiple times how i respect what they did for the game. As far as i know i didn't personally insult anybody here.
Yet, every post that addresses me states how "i hate that they are coming back..." or some similar nonsense. I never said that. Im being called dense and an idiot on multiple times by a guy who comes back here after seven years of absence and somehow feels entitled to berate all the community effort being made by statements like this:
On April 16 2017 03:56 iNcontroL wrote: This thread has some really disgusting shit in here. Most of the people you guys are talking about did more for the BW scene than any one of you have ever done by a order of magnitude on levels you'd probably not like to hear about.
you asked for respect, i gave it long before you ask. It would be silly of me not to, because i remember those days, i didn't join this community in 2012. I asked you for respect in return, you apparently think your beyond that because you and your friends did more for the game then anybody else ever. By your own definition, incontrol. Who is acting like an elitist here?
I agree with you, moderation could be more strict. Towards people like you who feel entitled to throw around insults because other people do not fully agree to your self-centred perception of achievement.
On April 16 2017 13:21 ROOTFayth wrote: I find it weird that some people are obsessed by broodwar but never even played at a high level....
Like who cares if you stayed all those years on broodwar playing a few UMS here and there and watching pro games lol, we never cared about these people, the reason we left broodwar is because everybody was leaving, every good active competitor in the foreign scene. As previous people said, when you join bnet and everyone on your friend list is always offline it gets quite boring and feels completely dead.
join fish and get some losses. You'll quickly find your competition.
And that also means that a 'defense' for all these people that did the same thing, be it Incontrol or ret or whoever, they are also 'defending' their own actions. These top foreigner SC BW amateurs, they knew there would be opportunities with SC2. And they took them. Many had quite a few nice and unique experiences that wouldn't have happened in their life otherwise. I mean, even someone like FrozenArbiter, who wasn't even good at SC BW, managed to get a career in SC2 somehow. Of course that was also because of the Blizzard vs Kespa war, but it did give them unique opportunities. I played games with all these people back in the day, but I went my own way. Many of us weren't made for practicing hardcore like a Korean, or trying to carve out a niche as an internet personality. But some f us saw the commercial opportunity that was SC2, and it was very big. And they ran with it, even though they realized very early on that the game was very flawed, and kept very silent about it.
"Not good at BW"
I was A+ on PGTour, you pompous buffoon. That might not be Korean pro level but it's very far from 'not good'.
That's not to say that it's untrue that the KeSPA/Blizz debacle wasn't a huge benefit to myself and anyone else without a professional BW background.
On April 16 2017 18:58 dignitas.merz wrote: I think why many people whom left BW for SC2 (including myself) are defending Day9 is because the accusations are directed towards all of us. The frustration stems from, at least for me, that you seem to think that you are entitled to some sort of an applause because you stuck with BW all this time. No one on the "opposite side" is demanding any applause for the amount of hard work they kept putting into BW for 10+ years (1999 - 2009) to keep the game floating in the western world (excluding S Korea here) and this is why this feels like a giant slap in the fucking face to be frank.
This is not a pissing contest nor should it be, but somehow I cant shake the feeling that we (as in the people who left for sc2) have to prove our worth to be accepted into a community we all helped to build long before any of the people who kept it going after sc2s release was even here.
This is all fucking absurd. We all love Brood War for the beautiful and awesome game it was and still is. We all have memories we will cheerish for the rest of our lives due to the game. Let us just cheerish what Brood War is instead of making it into a competition of whom contributed more to the scene or not. Let us stop attacking people personally with accusations that have no real basis in reality. It saddens me to see people attacking FrozenArbiter for example implying he wasnt "good enough" for BW and thus moved on. FA was one of the heaviest contributors to TL.net and one of the most passionate and skilled foreigners that existed. He was one of few who would actually practice with and get accepted into South korean clans. Making accusations like this is just mean and shows that the person claiming this really has no clue.
A lot of people in this thread are making the argument that the people who have been gone for years cant know the hard work that others had to put in to keep BW going these years. The same argument can be applied to Day9, Artosis, or FrozenArbiter. You literally have no clue about the work these people put in. So please, lets just respect both sides and the work each respective side put into the game we all love and end this ridiculously childish debate.
Good job... Now where do i need to apply for permission to play BW? where is the elitist office pls ;p
Wow i didnt even notice what that guy said about Jinro, LOL. Random guy calling out one of the better foreign BW players, acting like he knows something about the game. Jinro was one of the few foreigners who practiced on west with koreans and did well against them.
And that also means that a 'defense' for all these people that did the same thing, be it Incontrol or ret or whoever, they are also 'defending' their own actions. These top foreigner SC BW amateurs, they knew there would be opportunities with SC2. And they took them. Many had quite a few nice and unique experiences that wouldn't have happened in their life otherwise. I mean, even someone like FrozenArbiter, who wasn't even good at SC BW, managed to get a career in SC2 somehow. Of course that was also because of the Blizzard vs Kespa war, but it did give them unique opportunities. I played games with all these people back in the day, but I went my own way. Many of us weren't made for practicing hardcore like a Korean, or trying to carve out a niche as an internet personality. But some f us saw the commercial opportunity that was SC2, and it was very big. And they ran with it, even though they realized very early on that the game was very flawed, and kept very silent about it.
"Not good at BW"
I was A+ on PGTour, you pompous buffoon. That might not be Korean pro level but it's very far from 'not good'.
everytime a meet an old school player B- on iccup he tell me he was A+ Pgtour :p ,there are legends that Androide made A+ with every race on pgtour.so how hard was to get A+ on pgtour in your opinion ?i started late playing BW
And that also means that a 'defense' for all these people that did the same thing, be it Incontrol or ret or whoever, they are also 'defending' their own actions. These top foreigner SC BW amateurs, they knew there would be opportunities with SC2. And they took them. Many had quite a few nice and unique experiences that wouldn't have happened in their life otherwise. I mean, even someone like FrozenArbiter, who wasn't even good at SC BW, managed to get a career in SC2 somehow. Of course that was also because of the Blizzard vs Kespa war, but it did give them unique opportunities. I played games with all these people back in the day, but I went my own way. Many of us weren't made for practicing hardcore like a Korean, or trying to carve out a niche as an internet personality. But some f us saw the commercial opportunity that was SC2, and it was very big. And they ran with it, even though they realized very early on that the game was very flawed, and kept very silent about it.
"Not good at BW"
I was A+ on PGTour, you pompous buffoon. That might not be Korean pro level but it's very far from 'not good'.
everytime a meet an old school player B- on iccup he tell me he was A+ Pgtour :p ,there are legends that Androide made A+ with every race on pgtour.so how hard was to get A+ on pgtour in your opinion ?i started late playing BW
PGTour was just ICCUP before ICCUP existed....
So as hard as iccup for its time (obviously level was lower since BW kept evolving strategy wise)? It really depended a bit on the season tho, some seasons would be harder than others but the top of pgtour was all progamers and semi-pros.
I can't compare it in terms of personal experience to ICCUP because I had mostly quit by then.
On April 16 2017 20:14 TT1 wrote: Wow i didnt even notice what that guy said about Jinro, LOL. Random guy calling out one of the better foreign BW players, acting like he knows something about the game. Jinro was one of the few foreigners who practiced on west with koreans and did well against them.
On April 16 2017 18:58 dignitas.merz wrote: I think why many people whom left BW for SC2 (including myself) are defending Day9 is because the accusations are directed towards all of us. The frustration stems from, at least for me, that you seem to think that you are entitled to some sort of an applause because you stuck with BW all this time. No one on the "opposite side" is demanding any applause for the amount of hard work they kept putting into BW for 10+ years (1999 - 2009) to keep the game floating in the western world (excluding S Korea here) and this is why this feels like a giant slap in the fucking face to be frank.
This is not a pissing contest nor should it be, but somehow I cant shake the feeling that we (as in the people who left for sc2) have to prove our worth to be accepted into a community we all helped to build long before any of the people who kept it going after sc2s release was even here.
This is all fucking absurd. We all love Brood War for the beautiful and awesome game it was and still is. We all have memories we will cheerish for the rest of our lives due to the game. Let us just cheerish what Brood War is instead of making it into a competition of whom contributed more to the scene or not. Let us stop attacking people personally with accusations that have no real basis in reality. It saddens me to see people attacking FrozenArbiter for example implying he wasnt "good enough" for BW and thus moved on. FA was one of the heaviest contributors to TL.net and one of the most passionate and skilled foreigners that existed. He was one of few who would actually practice with and get accepted into South korean clans. Making accusations like this is just mean and shows that the person claiming this really has no clue.
A lot of people in this thread are making the argument that the people who have been gone for years cant know the hard work that others had to put in to keep BW going these years. The same argument can be applied to Day9, Artosis, or FrozenArbiter. You literally have no clue about the work these people put in. So please, lets just respect both sides and the work each respective side put into the game we all love and end this ridiculously childish debate.
Thanks @ both of you, though I'm not sure I'd say did well. I remember Jangbi beating me with his terran a bunch ^^
PvZ I could do good against most people tho. If I remember correctly my test games to join Dream.T were against HyuN - I won the first game on Luna then he asked for 5 consecutive rematches and bitchslapped me a bit ^^ (though this was before I got to A+ on PGTour I thiiiiiink, I got lucky to even win that first game at the time).
Man making me remember all these cool games Randomly getting to play against KaL on some korean BJ's stream (and trying to use feedback to snipe templars in the 200/200 fight on rush hour, which didn't end well), playing Chinese team league for this awesome chinese team GP.).... Sandlot bo5 vs FantasY (took a map!! he wasn't famous yet but in hindsight winning a macro game against him is pretty cool)...
Being jealous of Liquid`Ret's (iD at theh time) ability to take extended breaks from the game then come back and be beating everyone within 2 warm-up games... so talented.
FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
On April 16 2017 20:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
On April 16 2017 20:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
I have traumatic (blocked) memories of my first tournament/event games of any kind (I don't remember in what event it was.... don't remind me if you do lol :D) vs you...
EDIT: This brought to mind another traumatic memory: I think it was during the WDTour qualifiers, and I was still quite fresh to the game but I had gotten decent enough that I thought I was at least okay (I was not). I ran into Fisheye and ended up losing to his Terran I think (despite, as I recall, delaying his factory for like a full minute with manner pylons).
Anyway, at the end he said some really nice words of encouragement, along the lines of "keep practicing, you'll get there" and I remember being so mad because I thought I was already good hahaha
On April 16 2017 20:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
i did never heard anything from frozerarbiter, i know him as liquid`Jinro,also is funny that i know you as ToT)eriador( no liquid`drone :D
On April 16 2017 20:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
I have traumatic (blocked) memories of my first tournament/event games of any kind (I don't remember in what event it was.... don't remind me if you do lol :D) vs you...
Everyone has traumatic memories of their first games against Drone because he'd do the most messed up shit strategy-wise and make you look embarassingly bad :D That and he played Random. Filthy
On April 16 2017 20:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
I have traumatic (blocked) memories of my first tournament/event games of any kind (I don't remember in what event it was.... don't remind me if you do lol :D) vs you...
Manifesto7 Profile Blog PM Joined November 2002 Osaka25589 Posts January 16 2005 02:48 CET #9 FUCK THIS BULLSHIT.
Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK. BW is rigged making it impossible for me to get ANY OTHER MATCHUP VS P THEN PvP aka faggotland. Seriously, I get random P vs stupid Bill's protoss, go for the double proxy gate in the sweetest position, but then realize I cant micro zealots AT ALL. AND the fucker goes two gate himself because he is a big gaping vagina. Obviously I lose due to my lack of micro, macro and probe production, as well as forgetting a pylon.
THEN, instead of playing fakesteve on the map which I practiced the whole time for, a game I easily would have won because I have beat steve like a million times, the groups get switched last night cause some of the "bigshots" that work at this dump complained about the groups. whaa whaa whaa. So, I get stuck playing a guy that isnt even on the staff, FA, who plays loser protoss. He took like 5 expos with only cannons and I went mass lings and built every tech building around. However, I didnt attack once, and then he went sair dt and I quit while being totally bm in the channel.
I was trying to do live rwa during the games, but you can all go to hell.
On April 16 2017 20:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: FA at his peak was definitely one of the best players outside korea. slightly below your mondragon sen draco testie ret, but hard to really differentiate between the group of players below these ones.
I have traumatic (blocked) memories of my first tournament/event games of any kind (I don't remember in what event it was.... don't remind me if you do lol :D) vs you...
But this was before you peaked, which was more like 2006-2007, I remember being surprised by how much you improved during a short period of time! :p
I'm very glad it's probably corrupted by patches by now ;d!!!
Yeah 2006 I played insanely much, I think I played 900 games the season I hit A+... And getting nearly unlimited practice games (and getting bopped repeatedly by) with MidiaN/Ret/Testie helped a lot.
Jamie had some vicious ZvP...
Btw, if anyone could point me in the direction of where I could find some (preferably protoss) replay packs I would appreciate it. Want to steal some builds that aren't pre-bisu vs savior era..
Oh! That's another cool memory. RomAD, the official BWChart hotkey savant who knew like every single korean progamer that played on ICCUP because they'd send him his replays and he'd tell them who the smurfs they played against were...
I got my hands on a bunch of pre-breakout Bisu and Pusan games from there, my pvz got so much better from those... and I got a headstart on 2 base arbiter rushing before it was cool
On April 16 2017 20:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: LOOL
Manifesto7 Profile Blog PM Joined November 2002 Osaka25589 Posts January 16 2005 02:48 CET #9 FUCK THIS BULLSHIT.
Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK. BW is rigged making it impossible for me to get ANY OTHER MATCHUP VS P THEN PvP aka faggotland. Seriously, I get random P vs stupid Bill's protoss, go for the double proxy gate in the sweetest position, but then realize I cant micro zealots AT ALL. AND the fucker goes two gate himself because he is a big gaping vagina. Obviously I lose due to my lack of micro, macro and probe production, as well as forgetting a pylon.
THEN, instead of playing fakesteve on the map which I practiced the whole time for, a game I easily would have won because I have beat steve like a million times, the groups get switched last night cause some of the "bigshots" that work at this dump complained about the groups. whaa whaa whaa. So, I get stuck playing a guy that isnt even on the staff, FA, who plays loser protoss. He took like 5 expos with only cannons and I went mass lings and built every tech building around. However, I didnt attack once, and then he went sair dt and I quit while being totally bm in the channel.
I was trying to do live rwa during the games, but you can all go to hell.
On April 16 2017 15:17 Hot_Bid wrote: Person A played BW for 15 years and never touched another game. Person B played BW, then SC2, then returned for SC:R.
These are just personal choices, what games to enjoy. Person A does not deserve more "credit" or something simply for choosing to be monogamous to a hobby. There is no need to feel superior to others because you chose to be "faithful" to one, because games are not sports teams or relationships. Everyone should be happy people are playing BW again.
not directed at you personally, but at some trolls who try to make it sound like this is an argument about "purity". I simply quote you here, because you sum up the thesis in a nutshell.
i played Sc2 from the beta onwards, second wave of invites iirc that was given out to staff people for the german broodwar fanpage i did content for back then. I genuinly enjoyed it for a time and switched back to Broodwar in late WoL. i played some games after that too until everybody played Hots, which i didnt buy myself.
im "impure" by that standard. it's not about that. i wrote above multiple times what it IS about, so im not gonna repeat myself.
Browsing through, there's a lot of DOTA and older games uploaded again tho. Looks interesting from linked page onwards i think. " ESBP ICCup Nation League " is the recently finished Nation War league hosted by iccup. Good to get an impression of foreign level of play, tho level of play is not always the highest.
I'm happy to see all the old gosu foreigners talking about brood war again. What saddens me is that since 1999 I can't reach C on iccup and these guys will probably do it in SCR in about a month or so haha
On April 16 2017 21:37 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I'm happy to see all the old gosu foreigners talking about brood war again. What saddens me is that since 1999 I can't reach C on iccup and these guys will probably do it in SCR in about a month or so haha
Do you go to work? I suspect they can do it because they can find enough time to practise and if they have enough passion, then it should be good. Also, they'll probably be able to remember what they did in the past to distinguish themselves from noobs.
Edit: It'll be nice to have a tournament for people like Draco, Mondragon, NonY and so on for old time's sake. I miss BW TSL.
So, to all these Tl peeps who switched to SC2 when it came out and then got bopped by koreans and quit when the game got figured out: are you going to come back to BW?
And that also means that a 'defense' for all these people that did the same thing, be it Incontrol or ret or whoever, they are also 'defending' their own actions. These top foreigner SC BW amateurs, they knew there would be opportunities with SC2. And they took them. Many had quite a few nice and unique experiences that wouldn't have happened in their life otherwise. I mean, even someone like FrozenArbiter, who wasn't even good at SC BW, managed to get a career in SC2 somehow. Of course that was also because of the Blizzard vs Kespa war, but it did give them unique opportunities. I played games with all these people back in the day, but I went my own way. Many of us weren't made for practicing hardcore like a Korean, or trying to carve out a niche as an internet personality. But some f us saw the commercial opportunity that was SC2, and it was very big. And they ran with it, even though they realized very early on that the game was very flawed, and kept very silent about it.
"Not good at BW"
I was A+ on PGTour, you pompous buffoon. That might not be Korean pro level but it's very far from 'not good'.
everytime a meet an old school player B- on iccup he tell me he was A+ Pgtour :p ,there are legends that Androide made A+ with every race on pgtour.so how hard was to get A+ on pgtour in your opinion ?i started late playing BW
not sure about a+, but getting A- in few seasons was pretty easy.. remember once, like top ~30 players from Poland had A-/A
It all depends which year we are talking about, as at the beginning there were so many pros on the ladder that it was impossible for a non-kor to get a decent rank (unless abusing). This situations has been changing quickly and we've quickly seen high level foreigners that got to top of ranking by playing each other and avoiding koreans.
On April 16 2017 23:25 kogeT wrote: It all depends which year we are talking about, as at the beginning there were so many pros on the ladder that it was impossible for a non-kor to get a decent rank (unless abusing). This situations has been changing quickly and we've quickly seen high level foreigners that got to top of ranking by playing each other and avoiding koreans.
true. Fish ranks are just more meaningful today when you talk about skill in top foreigners. ICCup doesn't provide the right environment or ladder system for the top.
for what it's worth there was one season on PGTour that for some reason we got all higher rank, I was A+ too and so were a bunch of other top foreigners, I don't remember why everybody had gotten that high, I think the season had just lasted longer or something
And that also means that a 'defense' for all these people that did the same thing, be it Incontrol or ret or whoever, they are also 'defending' their own actions. These top foreigner SC BW amateurs, they knew there would be opportunities with SC2. And they took them. Many had quite a few nice and unique experiences that wouldn't have happened in their life otherwise. I mean, even someone like FrozenArbiter, who wasn't even good at SC BW, managed to get a career in SC2 somehow. Of course that was also because of the Blizzard vs Kespa war, but it did give them unique opportunities. I played games with all these people back in the day, but I went my own way. Many of us weren't made for practicing hardcore like a Korean, or trying to carve out a niche as an internet personality. But some f us saw the commercial opportunity that was SC2, and it was very big. And they ran with it, even though they realized very early on that the game was very flawed, and kept very silent about it.
"Not good at BW"
I was A+ on PGTour, you pompous buffoon. That might not be Korean pro level but it's very far from 'not good'.
everytime a meet an old school player B- on iccup he tell me he was A+ Pgtour :p ,there are legends that Androide made A+ with every race on pgtour.so how hard was to get A+ on pgtour in your opinion ?i started late playing BW
not sure about a+, but getting A- in few seasons was pretty easy.. remember once, like top ~30 players from Poland had A-/A
On the other hand I remember there being periods during which if a foreign flag player reached A+ it was to be heavily discussed in the ``Who is Who'' threads. Surely it was a bit special back then.
(FA was also unquestionably an elite BW player lol)
On April 17 2017 01:46 Eridanus wrote: When people say they were A+ on PGTour, it always sounds like they were only A+ during that season where everyone was A+ on PGTour.
Did you know about that season prior to it being mentioned in this thread? It follows that those that made a career of either Starcrafts is a self-selecting group from the top and not randomly distributed from the entire ladder. Why are you popping in here to denigrate people's credentials? Stop it.
On April 17 2017 01:27 ROOTFayth wrote: for what it's worth there was one season on PGTour that for some reason we got all higher rank, I was A+ too and so were a bunch of other top foreigners, I don't remember why everybody had gotten that high, I think the season had just lasted longer or something
It was around the time that there was that stupid hatchery-cancel game crash bug right? Not the weakest season ever but not the strongest indeed.
There's gonna be a lot of old Brood War players coming back to Brood War because of SC:Remastered. There'll be a lot of new players too...
SC: Remastered will be a "new" game for everyone, including the former Brood War players. How is it difficult to understand people want to come back to the game to create content for it lol. The Brood War elitists should be happy as fuck more attention will be brought to Brood War, especially within the "foreign" community.
Will people be making content for SC: Remastered as a "cash grab?" LOL. Facepalms, yes and no - content creators make content to earn a living...so yes obviously there will be some people that suddenly start playing and will make a few videos, blogs, or whatever and then disappear. How is that different from any other fuckin new game that comes out lol
I think a lot of people have to realize SC: Remastered is essentially going to be treated as a "new" game despite many players here and elsewhere may be playing Brood War actively since 1998.
I also think you'll easily be able to differentiate between the genuine Brood War enthusiasts like Day[9], incontrol, hell even myself, from the random youtuber that pops up and makes one SC: Remastered video in his fake ass youtube broadcaster voice and then disappears xD
On April 17 2017 01:27 ROOTFayth wrote: for what it's worth there was one season on PGTour that for some reason we got all higher rank, I was A+ too and so were a bunch of other top foreigners, I don't remember why everybody had gotten that high, I think the season had just lasted longer or something
It was around the time that there was that stupid hatchery-cancel game crash bug right? Not the weakest season ever but not the strongest indeed.
Still, nobody who was bad at BW got to A+.
yeah obviously all the A+ were pretty good players, prob not compared to the A+ koreans in iccup but among foreigners they had all respectable skill level
find it hilarious when the railbirds call top foreigners bad because they could not compete with top koreans
It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
does it really though, back then during WGT foreigners were a lot more active than on PGT and iccup where it was a mix of koreans and foreigners, the language barrier makes it a lot more boring since you dont even get to discuss the games with your opponents, you just play and review the replays by yourself, very hard to stay motivated
On April 17 2017 02:48 avilo wrote: I also think you'll easily be able to differentiate between the genuine Brood War enthusiasts like Day[9], incontrol, hell even myself, from the random youtuber that pops up and makes one SC: Remastered video in his fake ass youtube broadcaster voice and then disappears xD
On April 17 2017 02:48 avilo wrote: I also think you'll easily be able to differentiate between the genuine Brood War enthusiasts like Day[9], incontrol, hell even myself, from the random youtuber that pops up and makes one SC: Remastered video in his fake ass youtube broadcaster voice and then disappears xD
Lol.
I mean you can't really fault him for calling himself an enthusiast :D, hes just saying that he's a fan of the game.
Way different than actually saying he's good at BW
Aw, how frustrating are the moral absolutists everywhere. Day9 quit BW material and jumped into more lucrative areas. Wow, a huge surprise there, to quit a hobby in order to make cash. What did you expect? Have you made an attempt at a video? It's like hours of production for a couple of minutes of product. To do that for no revenue, I'm amazed he kept doing them BW videos for so long. Day9 has been a corner stone for foreigner BW content for years and years. His passion, contributions, insight and dedication for the game are absolutely undeniable. Instead of rejoicing that his awesome mind is back on the BW topic people criticize him for quitting BW back in the day... I don't understand this, I really don't. And most bothering is that it's people that no one has heard of or people that have never ever done something productive for the BW community. I myself am a damn leech, I just watch and play but I am so happy Day9 is back. I hope he continues to do BW content, it's deep and fun and full of secrets, even after years of playing this, there is so much to learn from people like him.
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
My interest in watching foreigners play BW is on the same level as my interest in watching Jamaica compete in the Winter Olympics. It's a funny novelty, nothing more.
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
My interest in watching foreigners play BW is on the same level as my interest in watching Jamaica compete in the Winter Olympics. It's a funny novelty, nothing more.
We suck, get over it.
Thats your opinion... Not everyone shares it. For instance, my interest in BW or even SC2 basically hinges on foreigner success.. I quit SC2 in 2013, and since then I only really watch it when I hear a foreigner is getting far in a tournement; or Scarlett in Korea competing in GSL/etc. For BW, last time I truly followed it was TSL's. Koreans are so robotic its pretty boring to me, I want to see some drastically different styles. Watching F91 or Sen play BW zerg was the last time I was really into the game. Sorry not sorry.
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
My interest in watching foreigners play BW is on the same level as my interest in watching Jamaica compete in the Winter Olympics. It's a funny novelty, nothing more.
We suck, get over it.
For me tsl2 was one of the greatest tournments ever i loved every moment of it from castro to ret playing zvz idra vs nony TWICE fucken badass sen and mondragon and ofc my favourite casters ever all together day9 chill artosis tasteless holy shit.
As someone back then who had very shitty internet connection i was ever thankful for the tl vod torrent that let me download and watch offline as many times as i wanted.
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
My interest in watching foreigners play BW is on the same level as my interest in watching Jamaica compete in the Winter Olympics. It's a funny novelty, nothing more.
We suck, get over it.
For me, foreign players vs the pros have been some of the hypest sets ever. Sziky vs Pusan was more exciting than most of the recent ASL matches imo.
On April 17 2017 16:23 TT1 wrote: I mean you can't really fault him for calling himself an enthusiast :D, hes just saying that he's a fan of the game.
Way different than actually saying he's good at BW
are you saying he didnt play his first game of bw right after 1.18 hit the ptr? :O
I played Brood War since back when PGTour was a thing and since the very beginning during the prehistoric era where everyone played on hunters and people in public games would tell you "vultures are bad wtf why are you fuckin building vultures."
On April 17 2017 16:23 TT1 wrote: I mean you can't really fault him for calling himself an enthusiast :D, hes just saying that he's a fan of the game.
Way different than actually saying he's good at BW
are you saying he didnt play his first game of bw right after 1.18 hit the ptr? :O
I played Brood War since back when PGTour was a thing and since the very beginning during the prehistoric era where everyone played on hunters and people in public games would tell you "vultures are bad wtf why are you fuckin building vultures."
you looked younger than that to me on stream. Which year you started playing?
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
On April 18 2017 04:19 Hot_Bid wrote: does anyone remember when the entire KTF team smurfed on wgtour and people were trying to figure out who they were based on replays
that was one of the funnest threads, Nada was like 33-3 with very few games going over 20 minutes, Yellow was like 99-7 or something insane
i remember some similar discussions back when koreans played ICCup, smurfed and most likely acc shared. But not from WGT times, no. ^^
On April 18 2017 04:19 Hot_Bid wrote: does anyone remember when the entire KTF team smurfed on wgtour and people were trying to figure out who they were based on replays
that was one of the funnest threads, Nada was like 33-3 with very few games going over 20 minutes, Yellow was like 99-7 or something insane
I remember that. There was a real KTF team smurfing, but there was a fake toona SG team also. And I actually think about equally many people thought Froz smurfing as Nada was the real Nada - Froz was 30-0 or whatever with 300+ apm every game, and the rest of us (I was Salmosa!) had 30-1 - ish records as well.
Oh! That's another cool memory. RomAD, the official BWChart hotkey savant who knew like every single korean progamer that played on ICCUP because they'd send him his replays and he'd tell them who the smurfs they played against were...
seriously Romad is a legend. I still have no idea how he did that
Oh! That's another cool memory. RomAD, the official BWChart hotkey savant who knew like every single korean progamer that played on ICCUP because they'd send him his replays and he'd tell them who the smurfs they played against were...
seriously Romad is a legend. I still have no idea how he did that
it's pretty easy, i proved an SC2 NA smurf was Mvp and no one believed me, then he used the account a few months later in a tournament
Oh! That's another cool memory. RomAD, the official BWChart hotkey savant who knew like every single korean progamer that played on ICCUP because they'd send him his replays and he'd tell them who the smurfs they played against were...
seriously Romad is a legend. I still have no idea how he did that
it's pretty easy, i proved an SC2 NA smurf was Mvp and no one believed me, then he used the account a few months later in a tournament
Not trying to put down what you did but Romad knew almost every pro's hotkey signatures it seemed. You could post a replay on the "iCCup who is who" topic of you vs. some high level Korean, and he'd be able to just glance at the BWChart of the replay and tell you who you played assuming it was a progamer. It was crazy how good he was at it
Yeah romad's hotkey signature recognition bordered on savant-level. Now, having replays of one player using two different nicknames and comparing them and seeing that hey, these are the same players, that's pretty easy. It's not easy to seemingly have 500 of those signatures memorized.
Oh! That's another cool memory. RomAD, the official BWChart hotkey savant who knew like every single korean progamer that played on ICCUP because they'd send him his replays and he'd tell them who the smurfs they played against were...
seriously Romad is a legend. I still have no idea how he did that
it's pretty easy, i proved an SC2 NA smurf was Mvp and no one believed me, then he used the account a few months later in a tournament
Not trying to put down what you did but Romad knew almost every pro's hotkey signatures it seemed. You could post a replay on the "iCCup who is who" topic of you vs. some high level Korean, and he'd be able to just glance at the BWChart of the replay and tell you who you played assuming it was a progamer. It was crazy how good he was at it
Yeah I didn't have anything memorized, just compared it to existing reps. Romad could apparently look at it and know.
Nada was skyinthesea. I do actually vaguely recollect something about some of the smurfing koreans being caught hacking but I'm not certain enough to confirm nada was one of them.
He also lost against Liquid`Venice during that wgtour run, which I genuinely believe is the only time progamer Nada ever lost against a player with less than a third of his apm.
I'm really excited for a resurgence of BW. I was just getting into my stride in BW (only D+) when SC2 beta hit and I swapped. SC2 always felt flawed though, and I'd blamed Deathballs for it. What Day9 goes over in this clip expands on that, and does a good job explaining why SC2 feels as hollow as it does to me.
BW always felt like it let you play a lot more how you wanted to, letting your skills show through, whichever area of the game they're in. Not having played for years, and with a tonne of SC2 bad habits, I'm expecting to get absolutely thrashed for a while, but I'm looking forward to it.
Just as a hardcore-casual sc player coming from bw and then to sc2, I am pretty excited about Day9's return. Coming back to bw is beautiful thing. I missed the wonky pathing, the demanding mechanics, the small army positional skirmishes, and the actual transitions from early, to mid, to late game. All of the unique micro tricks and the godly macro and macro army control of the top Koreans. Its extremely nostalgic and I am very excited and can't wait to play SC Remastered.
I remember the transition from bw to sc2 and Day9 was a huge part of that history including countless others. Much respect to him and all the other content creators that have dedicated their lives and lively-hoods to the best game on Earth. Its what keeps it exciting and fun to watch as well as to play. I am sure day9 can definitely grab a bunch of new players from other games such as dota2 and other games he plays to the scr scene. Its not a bad thing.
The divided comments early in this thread is just a testament to how powerful this game is and how passionate people can get over an old school rts. I will for one watch all of the hardcore bw/sc2 streamers and players if and when they make a transition to scr but at the same time I will continue to watch sc2 streamers that I enjoy watching from a personality perspective.
I am most excited about Bisu and friends grabbing a hold of a copy of scr and doing what they do best.
On April 18 2017 08:36 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Broodwar is that Jazz teacher from Whiplash While Sc2 is the kind and supportive (but empty) Father
Both are fine and terrible in their own ways.
I don't know if I'd really invite comparisons between BW and a physically and psychologically abusive maniac, but okay. People being afraid of BW is one of it's biggest flaws right now
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
he "left" for SC2? games aren't a monogamous relationship, you can play and watch multiple and have ebbs and flows of which ones you play more. Day9 especially can't "stay faithful" (lmao) to Brood War because you simply can't make a living doing it outside Korea. You expect him to beg for food or something because of a misguided notion to never touch another game again?
imagine how stupid this mentality would be when applied to literally any other interest or hobby.
“I have not watched any True Blood because I am a loyal Game of Thrones fan,” said one StarCraft player. “Though maybe I can watch both shows and not Mad Men because I’m an HBO fan and not an AMC fan. Or maybe I can watch all of them and not The Avengers Age of Ultron because I’m a TV fan. Wait maybe I can watch all of that and not read books because I’m a digital media fan. Or maybe I can do all of that but not listen to music because I am a fan of things I see with my eyes. I have decided to watch all shows with the sound off because I am very loyal to my sense of sight.”
Says the Dota 2 sellout. I mean the Smash sellout. I mean the Mafia sellout. I mean...
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
he "left" for SC2? games aren't a monogamous relationship, you can play and watch multiple and have ebbs and flows of which ones you play more. Day9 especially can't "stay faithful" (lmao) to Brood War because you simply can't make a living doing it outside Korea. You expect him to beg for food or something because of a misguided notion to never touch another game again?
imagine how stupid this mentality would be when applied to literally any other interest or hobby.
“I have not watched any True Blood because I am a loyal Game of Thrones fan,” said one StarCraft player. “Though maybe I can watch both shows and not Mad Men because I’m an HBO fan and not an AMC fan. Or maybe I can watch all of them and not The Avengers Age of Ultron because I’m a TV fan. Wait maybe I can watch all of that and not read books because I’m a digital media fan. Or maybe I can do all of that but not listen to music because I am a fan of things I see with my eyes. I have decided to watch all shows with the sound off because I am very loyal to my sense of sight.”
Says the Dota 2 sellout. I mean the Smash sellout. I mean the Mafia sellout. I mean...
On April 18 2017 04:19 Hot_Bid wrote: does anyone remember when the entire KTF team smurfed on wgtour and people were trying to figure out who they were based on replays
that was one of the funnest threads, Nada was like 33-3 with very few games going over 20 minutes, Yellow was like 99-7 or something insane
People were so excited about the idea of just playing them that they didn't care about ladder rank at all. You'd have the pro smurfs in C4 or something because they just started and the top players would throw all their points away just for a game with them.
Those were just different times though. You had to manually report all your games back then!
i think that period coincided with when bwchart came out so everyone just loaded all the korea dream team replays into it. saw a terran with 400 apm - 'yep, that's definitely nada'
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
I don't know if I fully agree with this. Nothing much came out of including Scan in TLC. Rather, there was a lot of outrage despite mentioning several times that including him was for testing purposes. I think the result of adding top KR players would be similar. Only difference I can see is that with more activity (assuming SC:R helps the scene greatly), there might be more players around for practicing with etc... but I don't see it making that much of a difference tbh.
On April 15 2017 21:55 Liquid`Ret wrote: I dunno how people can fault anyone for moving to SC2 from BW..
Day9, tasteless, artosis, all these other people that get critiziced for the strangest things, had been playing BW, fueled by passion for over a decade by the time SC2 came out and all these oppurtunities to make a living came along.
SC2 is a great game too, it's the most modern RTS out there and it's created a lot of epic moments/gameplay on really big platforms and since it came out Esports has only grown each year....
But for people who literally grew up with brood war, and loved it so much that they travelled the world to play tournaments, and grasp at straws just to be able to do anything for the game they loved, you should only be happy they are coming back at the first chance they get to experience this game again in modern times.
For years, there was hardly a playerbase left, Brood War didn't run well on modern pc's and there were definitely not any tournaments. It was really difficult to come back to try and play that in a completly dead scene, compared to sc2 which had tournaments every month, and wasn't a bad game to begin with.
SC:Remastered is ensuring that there might be a competitive environment for BW again, And I hope to see everyone come back and play because it's going to be fucking awesome. Those people we all grew up with while playing the game with and against each other, they are friends. Throughout the years everyone went their own way, a lot of people in sc2 or other esports related jobs, and a lot of people in academic carreers or other 'real world' carreers. A lot of us lost touch. I look forward to play with all my friends again in a game that all of us love...That's the most exciting part about all of this.
Even though i've played SC2 for 6 years, for me personally, it was never the same as BW. I had a really good time travelling, competing, playing countless tournaments everywhere. Being part of such a highly competitive scene was really fun, no matter what the game was. In the first few years the entire WC3 scene and BW scene came together and everyone tried their best at this new game, it was exciting as hell. Competition is a huge part for anyone who gets into difficult RTS games to try and improve himself. So it didn't matter that the game was sometimes stale, lots of great games were happening too in SC2. But it could never compare to the pure love you felt when you were a child trying to play BW and create art..
On April 18 2017 11:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: wow scummy as hell
##Vote: Hot_Bid
I like how this thread turned around. ^_^
wow that wgtour korea dream team thread. Filled with so many old-school names; ssamJang, Love, SONJJANG, TheMarine, pre-God of War Julyzerg, Enough <-- (*-_-) on this guy though sigh.
On April 18 2017 11:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: wow scummy as hell
##Vote: Hot_Bid
I like how this thread turned around. ^_^
wow that wgtour korea dream team thread. Filled with so many old-school names; ssamJang, Love, SONJJANG, TheMarine, pre-God of War Julyzerg, Enough <-- (*-_-) on this guy though sigh.
Enough vs intotherain are some of the best classical pvz games ever (on LT).
On April 18 2017 07:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: Nada was skyinthesea. I do actually vaguely recollect something about some of the smurfing koreans being caught hacking but I'm not certain enough to confirm nada was one of them.
He also lost against Liquid`Venice during that wgtour run, which I genuinely believe is the only time progamer Nada ever lost against a player with less than a third of his apm.
Pretty sure skyinthesea was never one of the ones caught hacking.
I don't know if renoma (aka Eliza) was officially caught hacking (he won one of the WSLs, I think it was season 3), but that was always the rumor. I almost wish he was though, because that adds an extra layer of awesomeness to his games against Trek in the knockout stage, who I think got caught hacking in that tournament or in some other wgtour game around that time. Also...since the statute of limitations surely are up...I don't think it was ever revealed at the time, but the reason renoma played terran and zerg in the final tournament (after playing zerg all season) was because he had his teammate Freshen play certain matchups for him.
Those were some of the most fun days on BW. Hopefully there are similarly fun days ahead for BW!
On April 17 2017 09:35 trutaCz wrote: It just motivates foreigners to get better, also way more exciting to watch some games between foreigners and korean top players. We could see foreigners practicing more for sure.
I don't know if I fully agree with this. Nothing much came out of including Scan in TLC. Rather, there was a lot of outrage despite mentioning several times that including him was for testing purposes. I think the result of adding top KR players would be similar. Only difference I can see is that with more activity (assuming SC:R helps the scene greatly), there might be more players around for practicing with etc... but I don't see it making that much of a difference tbh.
Yes, all of that was just a trolling, made for some reason
On April 18 2017 11:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: wow scummy as hell
##Vote: Hot_Bid
I like how this thread turned around. ^_^
wow that wgtour korea dream team thread. Filled with so many old-school names; ssamJang, Love, SONJJANG, TheMarine, pre-God of War Julyzerg, Enough <-- (*-_-) on this guy though sigh.
Enough vs intotherain are some of the best classical pvz games ever (on LT).
Interestingly enough, IntoTheRain was on ShieldBattery last night and played some games with us. Played 1v1 vs bioboyAT and we played some 3v3 on Hunters. Was a lot of fun, he seemed to enjoy himself.
On April 18 2017 11:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: wow scummy as hell
##Vote: Hot_Bid
I like how this thread turned around. ^_^
wow that wgtour korea dream team thread. Filled with so many old-school names; ssamJang, Love, SONJJANG, TheMarine, pre-God of War Julyzerg, Enough <-- (*-_-) on this guy though sigh.
Enough vs intotherain are some of the best classical pvz games ever (on LT).
Interestingly enough, IntoTheRain was on ShieldBattery last night and played some games with us. Played 1v1 vs bioboyAT and we played some 3v3 on Hunters. Was a lot of fun, he seemed to enjoy himself.
is a there some sort of newbie video guide for BW like what Day9 is doing for Dota? I really hope to see a raise of YouTube contents when the Remastered is out
On April 18 2017 11:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: wow scummy as hell
##Vote: Hot_Bid
I like how this thread turned around. ^_^
wow that wgtour korea dream team thread. Filled with so many old-school names; ssamJang, Love, SONJJANG, TheMarine, pre-God of War Julyzerg, Enough <-- (*-_-) on this guy though sigh.
Enough vs intotherain are some of the best classical pvz games ever (on LT).
Interestingly enough, IntoTheRain was on ShieldBattery last night and played some games with us. Played 1v1 vs bioboyAT and we played some 3v3 on Hunters. Was a lot of fun, he seemed to enjoy himself.
Whaaaat ? No way !!
Actually nvm, I was mistaken. It was IntoTheRainbow, not IntoTheRain ^^.
On April 19 2017 20:28 raff100 wrote: is a there some sort of newbie video guide for BW like what Day9 is doing for Dota? I really hope to see a raise of YouTube contents when the Remastered is out
nope, but I do believe that his initial content will be something like his dota guide but for BW.
On April 19 2017 20:28 raff100 wrote: is a there some sort of newbie video guide for BW like what Day9 is doing for Dota? I really hope to see a raise of YouTube contents when the Remastered is out
This is for SC2, but a lot of the concepts still apply to Brood War.
So, I keep hearing people making sports analogies and they always just seem like not the best.
He was close with football. What he wanted to say was football with no hitting: "contact and tackling are archaic and outdated, the game has developed past that and they should implement a system of tagging for blocking and tackling so that teams can focus on the strategy of blocking schemes and play design."
Soccer and hand usage: "Not using your hands in soccer is unintuitive and awkward. Learning to use only your feet takes away from setting up plays and passing and strategy. They should just allow using your hands."
Basketball and dribbling: "Dribbling is just a mindless, repetitive action that takes away from passing and picks and plays. They should just get rid of it."
Baseball without pitching: "hitting a 90mph ball is too hard and games full of strikeouts are too boring, we should all use tees so that we can focus on the strategy of where to hit the ball."
None of these sports would be improved by these suggestions, they would all be turned into completely different games (some of which, actually already exist). Likewise, unlimited control groups and multi-building selection would not improve Brood War, they would change it into a different game.
These are better sports analogies, I think. Being a sportsball type of a guy, hearing people use analogies that are not as good kind of just bothers me. Not like it is really important, though, but I already typed all this and at least somebody reading it will me me feel better and that is what is really important, right?
Best analogy is traction control in F1. They are happy they got rid of it.
As for sports analogies, when a person starts playing SC BW, they want to be able to easily approach a level of play comparable to Flash or Bisu, so they won't completely suck at playing the game at a progamer level. That is what I see people say about SC Remastered and why they don't want to play it. But when a person starts to play soccer, they have no expectations of being able to play the game in a similar way to Messi or Ronaldo.
This I find extremely odd. You can just move the mouse and build some units in the pace you would like to play at. The game is easy to learn. In the same way, you can be given a ball and play soccer with your friends any way you like.
But for gaming it has to be made easier, through the interface, to control just as many things at the same time as a progamer, so your play isn't filled with obvious flaws. You as an amateur must somehow be able to put up a fight when you are playing vs a top player. Otherwise, the game is 'too hard'. No one makes that argument for soccer, or for chess, or for anything else. It is just video gamers saying this.
Probably related to how in computer games, it's actually possible to influence the interface. I'm sure a lot of kids who play football would like to be able to shoot, pass and control the ball flawlessly without practicing for thousands of hours.
It does not mean we should indulge them, of course. Removing skill required to execute something means that it's no longer amazing when the execution is flawless. If every free kick was perfectly curved into the top corner, it'd stop being impressive really fast.
But the possibility of rebinding hotkeys does not constitute a significant simplification of the game. People are gonna move their m to a and p to e and make a couple other adjustments, and it's gonna make some elements of macroing slightly easier. It's not gonna significantly alter skill relations, at all. There's still gonna be more than enough things to do that nobody is able to do them all, it does not significantly alter balance in any way, it just makes it easier for people who haven't ever played the game, or who quit 17 years ago, to pick it up again.
Arguments regarding skill differentiation etc are super valid for why we can't have multiple building selection or unit groups bigger than 12 or smartcasting or smarter unit movement. But hotkey rebinding is not an issue that is like that.
Glad he's coming back, but how big is the hype for SCR exactly? From what I've seen the majority of people who are excited about it are closely tied to the sc community. Just trying to get a feel for his audience.
On August 31 2017 08:49 jalstar wrote: Any additional news on this now that Remastered is out?
Yes:
New BW videos will be coming in ~2 weeks time. The focus of the new series will be "Zero to hero" - learning how to play BW properly if you've never really tried before.
"Let's Learn Starcraft" will be a ~3 months series of videos to help bring players from an "I know nothing" level of BW to an expert level. They should be starting in ~2 weeks (I'm recording clips for the series that I'll talk over to keep the pace good, and those are taking more time than I'd expected, so I delayed it 1 week longer than I had said on the SC:R stream).
He has the replay to this! Stork vs Fantasy PvT Incruit OSL 2008 Finals
OH MY GOD DAY9. I want it so bad. Oh man just show me it in all it's glory. Show me all of FanTaSy's build! Also this! Flash vs Fantasy TvT Tving Semifinals
That APM/Micro video was really solid.. Thankfully, I've instinctively did most of the things mentioned in his video somehow naturally - But that video explains so much, It should be manditory for all new players.
I truly believe if stronger players make good tutorial videos and we get more tournaments, BW can have a decent revival. No, we'll never get any RTS to the popularity of LoL, Overwatch or Dota, but I think we can maintain a respectable viewership/eSports scene - maybe even develope the "difficulity" into a positive, some people love a challenge and being good at the hardest eSports game ever should be a benefit, not a drawback. We need local offline tournaments (regional qualifiers) and more positive figureheads in the community making content, rather than how the current "top" SC2's content creators are more trolls than serious players (avilo, winter, protech, nathanias).. We need Day9, Incontrol, Artosis type content created (PiG is doing a decent job, but thats it IMO)
Day[9] just made a post on r/Starcraft about the upcoming show. I'll repost it here with TL formatting. I asked him if he's going to make a thread on TL. If he replies with a negative, I'll make a post about this in BW General.
Ahoy /r/Starcraft!
As many of you know, I am over the moon happy that StarCraft: Remastered has released. I grew up playing StarCraft as basically the only thing I did, and now I’m once again BGHing and 1v1ing away! Loads of people are revisiting StarCraft (or even trying for the first time) and, as many reddit posts have noted, the gameplay of the original StarCraft can be a bit daunting.
So, for the next several months, I’m going to be doing a twice weekly show called Let’s Learn Starcraft! The purpose is to help bring someone from “zero to hero,” from someone who knows little to nothing about StarCraft to someone who can enjoy the game as a regular player and watcher of competitive SC:R.
StarCraft is a true challenge, but once you’ve learned enough, the simple act of playing StarCraft feels so good whether you win or lose. I sincerely hope this series can help showcase the joy and beauty of StarCraft
How to Watch
Livestream on Twitch, 5-7pm PDT on Tuesdays and Thursdays
There are three categories of topics that will be covered and shows may be broken into smaller chunks. For example: Zerg Micro Tuesday with four 20-25 minute videos that each focus on a different core zerg unit micro - Mutalisk, Ling/Lurker, Hydralisk, and Defiler
Strategy
How to think about strategy in StarCraft, common builds / compositions in each matchup etc.
What is strategy and how does it tie into execution / mechanics
How to practice
A thorough review of each matchup - common units, strategies, openings, cheeses, and counter cheeses
How to construct a strategy and adjust it over time
How to identify weaknesses and strengths in an opening build order
How to change plans during crisis management
How to scout and what signals to look for
A review of tactics
How tactical considerations can affect game-wide strategies
Mechanics
How to properly macro / micro / manage your base / manage different unit compositions etc.
Small scale unit control (micro)
Mid and large scale unit control
Worker scouting and management
Base management
Hotkey setups and tricks
Mouse and keyboard control
Macro
Building placement tricks
Awesome Matches
Let’s watch amazing games of StarCraft (some old, some new!) to see the glory of competitive Brood War! Huge thanks to OGN for providing these replays.
Stork vs Fantasy PvT Incruit OSL 2008 Finals
Jaedong vs Yellow[ArnC] ZvZ Bacchus OSL 2009 Finals
Iloveoov vs Reach PvT Ever OSL 2004 Semifinals
Movie vs Shine Ever PvZ OSL 2009 Semifinals
Flash vs Fantasy TvT Tving Semifinals
Flash vs Shine TvZ Tving Quarterfinals
Jangbi vs Mini PvP Tving Quarterfinals
And moar!
Any Questions?
Are there any topics you want me to cover? Any question you’d like to ask? Feel free to dump it in this thread. I’ll be back in an hour because I need to drop a friend off at the airport woo!
On September 02 2017 03:04 Aylear wrote: Day[9] just made a post on r/Starcraft about the upcoming show. I'll repost it here with TL formatting. I asked him if he's going to make a thread on TL. If he replies with a negative, I'll make a post about this in BW General.
Ahoy /r/Starcraft!
As many of you know, I am over the moon happy that StarCraft: Remastered has released. I grew up playing StarCraft as basically the only thing I did, and now I’m once again BGHing and 1v1ing away! Loads of people are revisiting StarCraft (or even trying for the first time) and, as many reddit posts have noted, the gameplay of the original StarCraft can be a bit daunting.
So, for the next several months, I’m going to be doing a twice weekly show called Let’s Learn Starcraft! The purpose is to help bring someone from “zero to hero,” from someone who knows little to nothing about StarCraft to someone who can enjoy the game as a regular player and watcher of competitive SC:R.
StarCraft is a true challenge, but once you’ve learned enough, the simple act of playing StarCraft feels so good whether you win or lose. I sincerely hope this series can help showcase the joy and beauty of StarCraft
How to Watch
Livestream on Twitch, 5-7pm PDT on Tuesdays and Thursdays
There are three categories of topics that will be covered and shows may be broken into smaller chunks. For example: Zerg Micro Tuesday with four 20-25 minute videos that each focus on a different core zerg unit micro - Mutalisk, Ling/Lurker, Hydralisk, and Defiler
Strategy
How to think about strategy in StarCraft, common builds / compositions in each matchup etc.
What is strategy and how does it tie into execution / mechanics
How to practice
A thorough review of each matchup - common units, strategies, openings, cheeses, and counter cheeses
How to construct a strategy and adjust it over time
How to identify weaknesses and strengths in an opening build order
How to change plans during crisis management
How to scout and what signals to look for
A review of tactics
How tactical considerations can affect game-wide strategies
Mechanics
How to properly macro / micro / manage your base / manage different unit compositions etc.
Small scale unit control (micro)
Mid and large scale unit control
Worker scouting and management
Base management
Hotkey setups and tricks
Mouse and keyboard control
Macro
Building placement tricks
Awesome Matches
Let’s watch amazing games of StarCraft (some old, some new!) to see the glory of competitive Brood War! Huge thanks to OGN for providing these replays.
Stork vs Fantasy PvT Incruit OSL 2008 Finals
Jaedong vs Yellow[ArnC] ZvZ Bacchus OSL 2009 Finals
Iloveoov vs Reach PvT Ever OSL 2004 Semifinals
Movie vs Shine Ever PvZ OSL 2009 Semifinals
Flash vs Fantasy TvT Tving Semifinals
Flash vs Shine TvZ Tving Quarterfinals
Jangbi vs Mini PvP Tving Quarterfinals
And moar!
Any Questions?
Are there any topics you want me to cover? Any question you’d like to ask? Feel free to dump it in this thread. I’ll be back in an hour because I need to drop a friend off at the airport woo!
Qikz! It was awesome and you need to watch it ASAP. Day[9] did such a good job hyping up what was about to happen, and then explain why what is happening is so cool. You get such a good sense of the players' respective gameplay styles, plus you get to watch a fantastic finals in super high definition. What's not to like?
What I'd really love to see is overviews of crazy or interesting maps in history and what makes them so interesting and unique. Probably explained through some of the exemplary games on them.
Maps I want include Ride of Valkyries, Fantasy, Blitz X, Blue Storm, 815, Katrina, Pathfinder, Battle Royale, Colosseum, Monty Hall, Troy. God there's so many.
THE HEARTBREAK! That series was one of the first series I'd ever seen of Broodwar and this was before I played the game. That finals was the game where I found my favourite player to follow and the style I wanted to learn. God damn that final game felt awful, but it drove me to want to one day be able to play like FanTaSy. That series is the reason I'm here today, no joke. Had I never seen that finals I probably wouldn't have been playing Broodwar since 2008. Damn.
Thank you so much for going through that Day9. Hopefully later they might give you the better finals from 2010! >:D
I have to say, as someone who has attended university lectures for the past 5 years, Sean really hit the nail in the head. He basically held a lecture with no fluff, the right amount of information, the right pacing, ON STARCRAFT! It was amazing. All I wanted to do was to take notes, you can feel passion and care oozing from this episode.
Man we are so lucky to have day9 with his intelligence and passion for the game. After seening the first show I would recommen looking into that semi finals series where fantasy beat flash. Those are the games where I as a spectator could most clearly see the trade offs between emphasising micro over macro in key points of the games.
On September 13 2017 20:55 Elroi wrote: Man we are so lucky to have day9 with his intelligence and passion for the game. After seening the first show I would recommen looking into that semi finals series where fantasy beat flash. Those are the games where I as a spectator could most clearly see the trade offs between emphasising micro over macro.
On September 13 2017 20:55 Elroi wrote: Man we are so lucky to have day9 with his intelligence and passion for the game. After seening the first show I would recommen looking into that semi finals series where fantasy beat flash. Those are the games where I as a spectator could most clearly see the trade offs between emphasising micro over macro.
Listened to the last 3 at work. He talks about really basic stuff so it's easy to just listen without watching. (I still watched tiny bits, fuck this job ) And it is so entertaining and well presented that I listened the 3 damn hours straight. I'm so glad he is back!
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
I wondered this too. If he really loved BW and didn't have the time or interest in playing LotV, why wasn't he doing Brood War content anyway?
The only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that Day9 makes a ton of money from streaming and doing videos. While I know that a large portion of his audience loves watching him do anything, it's possible that switching to Brood War would detract a lot of viewers who prefer a fun atmosphere with more modern games.
I dunno, I'd still fucking stream BW if I cared that much about it lol.
On April 15 2017 18:52 maartendq wrote: While I'm amazed at the amount of practice people put in to do even the most basic of things in Brood War, I do think that 2017 game design has moved well beyond 1998 game design. Sure there are people who like that some games require you to treat them like a second full time job if you want to become even the slightest bit of proficient at them, but for many other people games like Brood War feel like a fight against a horribly outdated UI and pathing engine.
I also don't agree with Day9's football analogy. Everyone knows that in order to play football, one requires a certain level of physical fitness. It's a part of what sports is. However, Day9 completely retrofits the genre Brood War belongs to, saying it's not really a strategy game, but a "real time"-game, even though it has been advertised as an RTS for the past 20 years. If a game is both advertised and regarded as an RTS, people expect the "S" to play a rather significant role.
Watch the video. Strategy plays an extraordinarily huge role in Brood War. As far as game design goes, Brood War is the pinnacle of genius as far as I'm concerned, especially when you get into the specifics of it. If there's a game from 2010+ that ages as well as Brood War, I'll be quite surprised.
Specifically I feel dota 2 is aging quite well same with LoL and I feel SC2 is aging well too.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
I wondered this too. If he really loved BW and didn't have the time or interest in playing LotV, why wasn't he doing Brood War content anyway?
The only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that Day9 makes a ton of money from streaming and doing videos. While I know that a large portion of his audience loves watching him do anything, it's possible that switching to Brood War would detract a lot of viewers who prefer a fun atmosphere with more modern games.
I dunno, I'd still fucking stream BW if I cared that much about it lol.
On April 15 2017 17:43 DickMcFanny wrote: Isn't it so weird when one brother gets all the brains and the other gets all the looks?
You mean Tasteless and his twin brother, Evil Tasteless?
On April 15 2017 18:52 maartendq wrote: While I'm amazed at the amount of practice people put in to do even the most basic of things in Brood War, I do think that 2017 game design has moved well beyond 1998 game design. Sure there are people who like that some games require you to treat them like a second full time job if you want to become even the slightest bit of proficient at them, but for many other people games like Brood War feel like a fight against a horribly outdated UI and pathing engine.
I also don't agree with Day9's football analogy. Everyone knows that in order to play football, one requires a certain level of physical fitness. It's a part of what sports is. However, Day9 completely retrofits the genre Brood War belongs to, saying it's not really a strategy game, but a "real time"-game, even though it has been advertised as an RTS for the past 20 years. If a game is both advertised and regarded as an RTS, people expect the "S" to play a rather significant role.
Watch the video. Strategy plays an extraordinarily huge role in Brood War. As far as game design goes, Brood War is the pinnacle of genius as far as I'm concerned, especially when you get into the specifics of it. If there's a game from 2010+ that ages as well as Brood War, I'll be quite surprised.
Specifically I feel dota 2 is aging quite well same with LoL and I feel SC2 is aging well too.
Well but thats a lame comparison. The first generation of network based games that become esport relevant (SC:BW, CS 1.6 and Quake) were at some point finished. There were no patches or new content coming on. All your mentioned games had patches in the last month and I am pretty damn sure that at least LoL and Dota 2 had content added in the last 6 months.
See the difference is that those oldschool games didn't need any constant new content to put into to remain 'fresh'. And I am not saying that its a bad thing, but passing the test of time is damn sure something different.
Also people who say that 1998 game design is inferior to 2017 game design. Well, pretty sure a lot of good new stuff happened in that area, BUT we are looking from a competetive perspective and believe me, this first generation will not be matched by a long time. They were truly "easy to learn, hard to master" and that doesn't mean that newer eSport games are bad, they are just not as pure anymore. Consumer behaviour has changed, back in the day when Counter-Strike, SC:BW and Quake came out gaming was even more a nerdish geeky hobby. Look at all the SNES games or check the speedrunning community. If you ask them what is the hardest game to run they point probably at some SNES/NES/other game of similar generation. Because it was the spirit back then. Our first generation was basically designed and made in that spirit but also translated via home internet connection and later because of broadband connection to the more mainstraimish part. And because gaming is way more mainstream the games are way more mainstreamish, even the 'hard' esport games. Only really Dota 2 has still kind of the spirit as far as I can tell, but thats because the brain and game designer remained the same and he knows what he is doing (and it wasn't a lucky coincidence like the CS modder). So yeah, the current big esports games are not aging, because they are constantly getting slightly facelifted every now and then. And thats not aging tbh.
On April 15 2017 15:33 ninazerg wrote: I like how he's like "StarCraft is the best game ever!", "I've been playing it since 5th grade!", "I can't wait for Brood War to come out!"
...dude, you left for SC2.
I wondered this too. If he really loved BW and didn't have the time or interest in playing LotV, why wasn't he doing Brood War content anyway?
The only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that Day9 makes a ton of money from streaming and doing videos. While I know that a large portion of his audience loves watching him do anything, it's possible that switching to Brood War would detract a lot of viewers who prefer a fun atmosphere with more modern games.
I dunno, I'd still fucking stream BW if I cared that much about it lol.
On April 15 2017 17:43 DickMcFanny wrote: Isn't it so weird when one brother gets all the brains and the other gets all the looks?
You mean Tasteless and his twin brother, Evil Tasteless?
On April 15 2017 18:52 maartendq wrote: While I'm amazed at the amount of practice people put in to do even the most basic of things in Brood War, I do think that 2017 game design has moved well beyond 1998 game design. Sure there are people who like that some games require you to treat them like a second full time job if you want to become even the slightest bit of proficient at them, but for many other people games like Brood War feel like a fight against a horribly outdated UI and pathing engine.
I also don't agree with Day9's football analogy. Everyone knows that in order to play football, one requires a certain level of physical fitness. It's a part of what sports is. However, Day9 completely retrofits the genre Brood War belongs to, saying it's not really a strategy game, but a "real time"-game, even though it has been advertised as an RTS for the past 20 years. If a game is both advertised and regarded as an RTS, people expect the "S" to play a rather significant role.
Watch the video. Strategy plays an extraordinarily huge role in Brood War. As far as game design goes, Brood War is the pinnacle of genius as far as I'm concerned, especially when you get into the specifics of it. If there's a game from 2010+ that ages as well as Brood War, I'll be quite surprised.
Specifically I feel dota 2 is aging quite well same with LoL and I feel SC2 is aging well too.
Well but thats a lame comparison. The first generation of network based games that become esport relevant (SC:BW, CS 1.6 and Quake) were at some point finished. There were no patches or new content coming on. All your mentioned games had patches in the last month and I am pretty damn sure that at least LoL and Dota 2 had content added in the last 6 months.
See the difference is that those oldschool games didn't need any constant new content to put into to remain 'fresh'. And I am not saying that its a bad thing, but passing the test of time is damn sure something different.
Also people who say that 1998 game design is inferior to 2017 game design. Well, pretty sure a lot of good new stuff happened in that area, BUT we are looking from a competetive perspective and believe me, this first generation will not be matched by a long time. They were truly "easy to learn, hard to master" and that doesn't mean that newer eSport games are bad, they are just not as pure anymore. Consumer behaviour has changed, back in the day when Counter-Strike, SC:BW and Quake came out gaming was even more a nerdish geeky hobby. Look at all the SNES games or check the speedrunning community. If you ask them what is the hardest game to run they point probably at some SNES/NES/other game of similar generation. Because it was the spirit back then. Our first generation was basically designed and made in that spirit but also translated via home internet connection and later because of broadband connection to the more mainstraimish part. And because gaming is way more mainstream the games are way more mainstreamish, even the 'hard' esport games. Only really Dota 2 has still kind of the spirit as far as I can tell, but thats because the brain and game designer remained the same and he knows what he is doing (and it wasn't a lucky coincidence like the CS modder). So yeah, the current big esports games are not aging, because they are constantly getting slightly facelifted every now and then. And thats not aging tbh.
I was thinking along similar lines in the past weeks, about esports in relation with traditional sports, and shared much of the same feelings.
A bit later on I was watching a vod and heard Tastosis comment about the island expos on Skull Desert (I can't get that name out of my head, sorry), so I looked into the map a bit more. From there, I went over a whole bunch of maps and their features.
Here lies the thing: maps are a core part of any strategy game. Chess, one unchanging board and an identical unit composition. Football/Basketball and the like, 90% the same field (afaik some stadiums have slightly different sizes), almost identical "unit composition". Brood War? None of that. Some maps are newer, some are ancient, with features all over the place (some SC2 flashback to tanks behind mineral lines here or close air spawns there).
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yrT7tub.png)
2008 Incruit OSL grand finals. This should get new players excited to see where the game can take you if you put some time into it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y4J9zFo.png)
ssamJang, 
Love, 
SONJJANG, 
TheMarine, pre-God of War ![[image loading]](https://s28.pixxxels.org/qjeplvpn1/2035_-_autoplay_gif_gif_vince_mcmahon_wwf.gif)
