Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
It does change something at higher levels. There's a clear difference between how fast a pro can macro vs a top amateur, and even pros make mistakes.
You just need to pracitce more, as 30 games is literally nothing, while also remembering that the opponent is dealing with the same bullshit you are.
I find worrying how people are using the hotkey changes as an excuse to justify more changes. The fact that the hotkeys are here to stay is not influenced by whether or not they are good for the game. Blizzard decided it's going to be this way and that's it. Long gone are the times of Blizzard listening to the community, and/or releasing patches in a timely fashion.
There's also a questionable connection between hotkeys and input detection. I can see them being related in the sense that both are part of the "you against the computer" section of the game, but by removing anything that falls under this umbrella you'd end up destroying the game completely. Just because you're bad at something, doesn't mean it's bullshit. Different players will be good at different things.
The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
The thing is, this isn't a random problem. It can be replicated and predicted. It just seems random because it can be subtle at times and the sheer speed and the amount of clicks. I'll put this into the same category as units freezing under the hold position command. Now if you think that's an issue that needs addressed then fair enough on both accounts. I compare this to two football teams playing in the rain. On a case by case basis there may be unfair results but on a larger scale, everyone is playing the same game.
I will say that I wouldn't be upset if this was fixed but I'm more or less indifferent.
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
It does change something at higher levels. There's a clear difference between how fast a pro can macro vs a top amateur, and even pros make mistakes.
You just need to pracitce more, as 30 games is literally nothing, while also remembering that the opponent is dealing with the same bullshit you are.
I find worrying how people are using the hotkey changes as an excuse to justify more changes. The fact that the hotkeys are here to stay is not influenced by whether or not they are good for the game. Blizzard decided it's going to be this way and that's it. Long gone are the times of Blizzard listening to the community, and/or releasing patches in a timely fashion.
There's also a questionable connection between hotkeys and input detection. I can see them being related in the sense that both are part of the "you against the computer" section of the game, but by removing anything that falls under this umbrella you'd end up destroying the game completely. Just because you're bad at something, doesn't mean it's bullshit. Different players will be good at different things.
The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
They listen to the community? No they dont, if they would listen, it would have been gone with Remastered release. That mca64Launcher had a blockage fixed. That poll is obviously for a change. I highly doubt that Keyboard/Mouse block was high on the "What to keep" list
By the way, the fact that this kind of "cheat" was available for everyone should have provoced some kind of War between purists and cheater. Was there such a thing in the iccup community?
On December 02 2018 05:03 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
Funny that you bring up a fighting game, because in that genre, horse shit like this would not fly.
On December 02 2018 05:03 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
Funny that you bring up a fighting game, because in that genre, horse shit like this would not fly.
It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
On December 02 2018 08:09 Paloier wrote: It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
Input delay (present in every RTS as well due to lockstep) and rollback are necessary evils, online. These things do not exist in offline games, and if a fighting game had universal lag also applying to offline, there would be backlash. (Didn't that happen once?)
And did you already forget this?
Patch 1.18.0 Improved gameplay responsiveness during multiplayer by increasing turn rate to match LAN speeds over Battle.net.
In any case, people seem to look at SC2 and correlate any kind of quality of life changes with a worse game, and have this knee jerk reaction to any proposal to improve BW, when in reality, there was much more wrong with SC2 besides it being coded properly.
This is a straight up bug, up there with the terrain height fuck ups. There should be no issue with rolling out a PTR trying out the fixes to these, and seeing if it ruins everything, which it won't either way.
On December 02 2018 08:09 Paloier wrote: It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
Input delay (present in every RTS as well due to lockstep) and rollback are necessary evils, online. These things do not exist in offline games, and if a fighting game had universal lag also applying to offline, there would be backlash. (Didn't that happen once?)
6ms, which is less than a frame, is not lag. A stable lag of 6ms would mean that the developer went extra lengths to poll inputs at 166 Hz, which is a decent idea and you could possibly go even higher. So I guess that you meant frames. 6 frames however, is not okay, it's pretty damn far from okay. 6 frames is 96ms at 60 Hz. (I'd imagine even BW has something like 2 frames delay at Low, that's about the bare minimum for lockstep, and it would be about 80ms at TR24) Ask any Quake player if they'd like to play a match with you at 96 ping. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with low and high load situations, which can be fixed by polling the inputs on a fixed timer, and buffering them. What you linked describes something different; a mixture of Meme Engine issues, developer incompetence typical for Japan, and boneheaded online parity. I don't remember games doing this shit 10 years ago. The article also mentions that people are, rightly, pissed about this state of affairs. (But they'll still buy the latest installment, because gamers are battered wives)
I launched Tekken 6 just to check if this hasn't slipped under my nose before, and I'll eat my hat if that has an input delay of 6 or 7 frames. T3 still feels somewhat faster but it's probably just the animations. Online fighting games are fine with rollback alone anyway, extra delay doesn't seem necessary.
But what we're essentially discussing here is not delay (which BW does have and it's necessary because brute syncing 3200 zerglings will kill anyone's internet, we're only sending commands) but buffering (which BW could use).
On December 02 2018 08:09 Paloier wrote: It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
Input delay (present in every RTS as well due to lockstep) and rollback are necessary evils, online. These things do not exist in offline games, and if a fighting game had universal lag also applying to offline, there would be backlash. (Didn't that happen once?)
Patch 1.18.0 Improved gameplay responsiveness during multiplayer by increasing turn rate to match LAN speeds over Battle.net.
In any case, people seem to look at SC2 and correlate any kind of quality of life changes with a worse game, and have this knee jerk reaction to any proposal to improve BW, when in reality, there was much more wrong with SC2 besides it being coded properly.
This is a straight up bug, up there with the terrain height fuck ups. There should be no issue with rolling out a PTR trying out the fixes to these, and seeing if it ruins everything, which it won't either way.
It's irrelevant if it's a bug or not. Half the tricks we use today are bugs or unintended behavior, and it works out just fine. On top of that, it has consistent behavior, which means you can anticipate and compensate for systematically (just release your mouse buttons faster).
What you're suggesting is a gameplay change, as it affects how the game is played. QoL would be being able to select the opponents color, or revealing the entire map once the match ends (so you can check your opponents bases). Games are not home appliances though, in which the goal is to make things as easy as possible. In a video-game the fun IS the challenge.
To further illustrate, let's say I buy a peeler cause I'm not very good with a knife. In that case, I fully expect to be able to peel apples faster, and my quality of life will improve because of it. However, if instead I was playing a game about peeling apples, a peeler changes the game completely.
Like I showed you, even at pro level this limitation affects how fast you can go, so you just have to slow down if you're not precise enough. Time and practice will allow you to do it faster and without thinking, just like all the other mechanical aspects of the game.
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
It does change something at higher levels. There's a clear difference between how fast a pro can macro vs a top amateur, and even pros make mistakes.
You just need to pracitce more, as 30 games is literally nothing, while also remembering that the opponent is dealing with the same bullshit you are.
I find worrying how people are using the hotkey changes as an excuse to justify more changes. The fact that the hotkeys are here to stay is not influenced by whether or not they are good for the game. Blizzard decided it's going to be this way and that's it. Long gone are the times of Blizzard listening to the community, and/or releasing patches in a timely fashion.
There's also a questionable connection between hotkeys and input detection. I can see them being related in the sense that both are part of the "you against the computer" section of the game, but by removing anything that falls under this umbrella you'd end up destroying the game completely. Just because you're bad at something, doesn't mean it's bullshit. Different players will be good at different things.
The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
They listen to the community? No they dont, if they would listen, it would have been gone with Remastered release. That mca64Launcher had a blockage fixed. That poll is obviously for a change. I highly doubt that Keyboard/Mouse block was high on the "What to keep" list
By the way, the fact that this kind of "cheat" was available for everyone should have provoced some kind of War between purists and cheater. Was there such a thing in the iccup community?
Mca launcher's fix didn't work properly, specially at high apm, which is the use case benefiting the most from it. I wasn't active when it was released so I can't speak for any divide in the community.
I'll just add that overcoming this problem with your skill and developing pr0 habits to slam m1 to a-move your army is really trivial. You can nail it in a day or two, feel really proud of yourself and file it under "self-improvement" in that little pink diary you hide under your pillow.
It also destroys your fucking mouse and makes you buy a new one way faster than you should, unless you know how to solder a microswitch in and where to order those from. And I won't be telling you that. You'll be stuck attempting to follow youtube videos about opening a microswitch and reforging the little piece of copper back into shape. Then you'll give up and buy the latest progamer endorsed mouse, happily throwing your current one away and contributing to the already overflowing landfills. Ergo, the people in favor of not fixing this bug are literally killing the planet and we should just cube them and feed them to cows.
No. These people are going to share a gulag with pineapple pizza enthusiasts, and will be forced to play competitive connect-four until the end of time.
EPT
You'll be stuck attempting to follow youtube videos about opening a microswitch and reforging the little piece of copper back into shape. Then you'll give up and buy the latest progamer endorsed mouse, happily throwing your current one away and contributing to the already overflowing landfills. Ergo, the people in favor of not fixing this bug are literally killing the planet and we should just cube them and feed them to cows.
