I wanted to take the chance and discuss a peculiar mouse and keyboard interaction quirk that has existed in Brood War ever since the game launched.
It's something you notice when you go back to Brood War after having played other RTS games for a period of time:
Holding down the left/right mouse button in BW completely blocks all keyboard inputs from being registered.
For example: You have 3 control groups of units you want to 1a2a3a.
You press 1, you press a, you click on the map.
You immediately press 2, but you haven't yet released your mouse from clicking on the map from step 1. This results in your 2nd control group never getting selected.
I wanted to ask the Teamliquid BW forum whether you guys think this is a "feature of Starcraft", or whether it should be considered an archaic quirk of the game that was probably never intended to be in there.
In other words: Is it okay for Blizzard to patch this and make Brood War accept keyboard inputs at the same time as mouse inputs?
Poll: Should BW be able to register simultaneous keyboard and mouse inputs?
Yes (317)
83%
No (60)
16%
Other (7)
2%
384 total votes
Your vote: Should BW be able to register simultaneous keyboard and mouse inputs?
In my opinion input delay should not exist mainly because there used to be workaround to that back in the days iirc, BUT HARDCORE C- VETERANS will be telling you that it will break the balance and will be unaceptable just like hotkeys, only if they knew many people including me were playing on iccup and fish with changed hotkeys for years haha
You can also 1a2a3a too fast, and it doesn't register either.
As for input delay, I heard there is a test server with 1.18 online right now. So what is the input delay? The same as original 28.8 baud modem-era Starcraft? The same as WC3? The same as SC2/LoL, or the same as LAN latency?
BUT HARDCORE C- VETERANS will be telling you that it will break the balance and will be unaceptable just like hotkeys ...
I hope this is sarcasm and making fun of people who complain about others with valid balance concerns. if so, lie it on thicker and actually find some funnies. If not, get your 5 post account back to the SC2 board.
I also did a test a while ago, where some clicks of me were not registered correctly. Windows just sent a doubleclick message to starcraft which was then ignored. I don't know if this is just a problem with my mouse, but I'd say attack and then doubleclick should also result in an attack, and not nothing.
On April 01 2017 02:13 mdb wrote: I voted no. This will lower the skill cap a little bit (which is not good thing in my book) and also it will hurt the mechanically better players.
I disagree. I would argue that removing this limitation allows players to micro more which I think is desired
I definitely think this engine limitation should be remedied if possible. It's really frustrating to not have your inputs go through as it just makes the game feel more sluggish in terms of controls. I don't think it's especially skillful either to only be able to control your army using only either the keyboard or the mouse. It's not as if the inputs weren't sent at all, so clearly the intention behind the action is there. Also what if your particular mouse model's switches happen to take an extra fraction of a second to lift up? I don't think that there should be a limitation on people's ability to play due to the particular peripherals that they use.
On April 01 2017 02:46 st4ck0v3rfl0w wrote: I also did a test a while ago, where some clicks of me were not registered correctly. Windows just sent a doubleclick message to starcraft which was then ignored. I don't know if this is just a problem with my mouse, but I'd say attack and then doubleclick should also result in an attack, and not nothing.
On April 01 2017 02:13 mdb wrote: I voted no. This will lower the skill cap a little bit (which is not good thing in my book) and also it will hurt the mechanically better players.
I disagree. I would argue that removing this limitation allows players to micro more which I think is desired
This argument is ridiculous. It doesn't matter what it allows playes to do more. You see, players that have faster 1a2a3a4a5a already can do more than players that don't. By removing this it makes it even, essentially lowering the skill cap. The game punishes people with sloppy inputs, who deserve to be punished, and rewards those who either have the talent to do it cleanly, or put in a lot of effort into learning how to do it cleanly
As far as the argument about 'certain mouses have different switches', this can really be applied to any peripheral and any game whatsoever. Some people play CS with bad sensors, should the game correct your aim cause players with worse sensors aren't able to aim properly? Some people have bad keyboards, should the game correct your inputs cause your board sucks? We should just make the game play itself then, but if we're going to arbitrarily have to draw the line somewhere, it should be where it's already at, as it has been played and loved for 18+ years
On March 30 2017 23:03 outscar wrote: I got some input issues related to spamming. On 1.16 if you holded key f.e. 3 (CC) and while holding that key if you clicked to minerals you could switch between CC and minerals. In this version if I click to minerals while holding my CC key and then release my click my screen doesn't go back to CC thus I need to push my 3 (CC) hotkey again. Hope I could explain. If not I will try to rec a video.
Nice that someone finally noted this out. This thing should be fixed immediately! I mean just give back before input. Please post this on Battle.net forum as well.
On March 30 2017 23:03 outscar wrote: I got some input issues related to spamming. On 1.16 if you holded key f.e. 3 (CC) and while holding that key if you clicked to minerals you could switch between CC and minerals. In this version if I click to minerals while holding my CC key and then release my click my screen doesn't go back to CC thus I need to push my 3 (CC) hotkey again. Hope I could explain. If not I will try to rec a video.
Nice that someone finally noted this out. This thing should be fixed immediately! I mean just give back before input. Please post this on Battle.net forum as well.
I don't think this is the same problem this guy is talking about. The mouse always prevented keyboard inputs, but the keyboard doesn't prevent mouse inputs. If it's changed from the original then it needs to be addressed for sure
On March 30 2017 23:03 outscar wrote: I got some input issues related to spamming. On 1.16 if you holded key f.e. 3 (CC) and while holding that key if you clicked to minerals you could switch between CC and minerals. In this version if I click to minerals while holding my CC key and then release my click my screen doesn't go back to CC thus I need to push my 3 (CC) hotkey again. Hope I could explain. If not I will try to rec a video.
Nice that someone finally noted this out. This thing should be fixed immediately! I mean just give back before input. Please post this on Battle.net forum as well.
I don't think this is the same problem this guy is talking about. The mouse always prevented keyboard inputs, but the keyboard doesn't prevent mouse inputs. If it's changed from the original then it needs to be addressed for sure
I got same issue it's backwards opposite issue of what OP said. Now while pressing keyboard button I can't cycle through hotkey pressing, holding and mouse clicking. If I click mouse button while holding down hotkey I can't get back to my hotkey.
Can someone else test this? I tested on 1.16 and what happens is that the game accepts key repetition (like when you're using word or notepad), so if you hold down a key it starts repeating. I can't run PTR here to see what is going on.
Someone kind enough please test if you can't hold a key down and it keeps repeating (for example, group a unit to 1, tell the unit to go somewhere and hold down 1, if the screen keeps centering it's repeating, if not it isn't)
Second test would be try to press the mouse when you have a key pressed down, see if the mouse click is registered
Third would be to group something to any number, box somewhere empty, hold down the number you grouped, wait a second and then release the mouse button. See if the screen jumps to your grouped unit
On March 30 2017 23:03 outscar wrote: I got some input issues related to spamming. On 1.16 if you holded key f.e. 3 (CC) and while holding that key if you clicked to minerals you could switch between CC and minerals. In this version if I click to minerals while holding my CC key and then release my click my screen doesn't go back to CC thus I need to push my 3 (CC) hotkey again. Hope I could explain. If not I will try to rec a video.
Nice that someone finally noted this out. This thing should be fixed immediately! I mean just give back before input. Please post this on Battle.net forum as well.
I believe this issue is due to the difference between L1 and L2. My guess is that when Blizz switches to L2, this will go back to the behavior in 1.16
Every issue should be tested and documented, instead of just assuming its cause and hoping it's fixed. Also, BW input is client sided, so idk how you got from 'input not working problem' to 'this is a latency issue'
On March 30 2017 23:03 outscar wrote: I got some input issues related to spamming. On 1.16 if you holded key f.e. 3 (CC) and while holding that key if you clicked to minerals you could switch between CC and minerals. In this version if I click to minerals while holding my CC key and then release my click my screen doesn't go back to CC thus I need to push my 3 (CC) hotkey again. Hope I could explain. If not I will try to rec a video.
Nice that someone finally noted this out. This thing should be fixed immediately! I mean just give back before input. Please post this on Battle.net forum as well.
I believe this issue is due to the difference between L1 and L2. My guess is that when Blizz switches to L2, this will go back to the behavior in 1.16
I already tried it on single player and it has nothing to do with latency. What Randomprecision is saying right. Hope it will get added to TT1's issue list as different input behavior.
On April 01 2017 11:57 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Can someone else test this? I tested on 1.16 and what happens is that the game accepts key repetition (like when you're using word or notepad), so if you hold down a key it starts repeating. I can't run PTR here to see what is going on.
Someone kind enough please test if you can't hold a key down and it keeps repeating (for example, group a unit to 1, tell the unit to go somewhere and hold down 1, if the screen keeps centering it's repeating, if not it isn't)
Yeah it's not working if you hold that key, only works if you press it quickly two times. That sucks...
On April 01 2017 11:57 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Second test would be try to press the mouse when you have a key pressed down, see if the mouse click is registered
Mouse click is registered but like I said above post after you relese mouse button you should go back to your pressed down key which is not happening in this new patch.
On April 01 2017 11:57 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Third would be to group something to any number, box somewhere empty, hold down the number you grouped, wait a second and then release the mouse button. See if the screen jumps to your grouped unit
Same answer like to your 1st question. Screen is not jumping to those grouped units. It only works now if you press it quickly 2 times.
EDIT: Reread 3rd question and didn't understand it well. You mean hotkey f.e. 4 scvs, hold that hotkey then left click and drag somewhere on ground and then release mouse button? So I should jump to my scvs? Hmm that doesn't work on 1.16.1 too if I get your question right.
EDIT 2: If you click somehwere on minimap while holding your hotkey and then release mouse button then yeah it goes back to your hotkeyed units on 1.16.1. Lemme check this on new patch. Yeah of course this one also is not working on new patch.
Someone needs to go out and record all the input delays for LoL, Dota2, SC2, SC BW 1.16 Lan Lat and SC BW 1.18. Because right now only people with fine senses suspect something is off and most people and those coming for games with huge input delays like LoL/SC2/DOTA2/WC3 will not notice.
It has nothing to do with any input delay. It's just that keyboard clicks don't register while you are holding a mouse button. Same thing happens in BW 1.16, and as LaLush pointed out, it was happening forever.
I also noticed sometimes trying to select all units of same kind by using Ctrl+click works and sometimes it only selects this one unit. Would that be an example of this problem?
This has been freaking me out ever since and in my first few games after 1.18 I was already struggling with this again. I sent 1a2a3a4a only to find out only 1 and 4 are actually moving because I did not release my mouse quickly enough. Not sure why but I do that all the time and being over 30 I don't think I'll ever get my head around doing this right.
Thank you OP for bringing this up in a constructive manner and definitely hoping this gets fixed. This has nothing to do with how hard the game should be or the skill ceiling, this is plain frustration.
EDIT: since some people seem to confuse this issue with input lag or other issues, here a more visual description:
(button up is - button pressed is _ M is mouse button)
While the mouse button is still pressed, SC ignores that I press the "2" on the keyboard and never selects group 2. You need to relese the mouse button BEFORE pressing a keyboard button. If there is an overlap it does not work.
I had no idea that's why this happened. I always thought I was just messing up which keys I hit.
I wouldn't miss it if it was updated. Sure there's timing to it, and under pressure you're more likely to screw up that timing, so there's something a little interesting about that but... it sucks when you're just doing your normal thing and you're like why didn't they go? So you just teach your self to do 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a multiple times to make sure they all go, when you'd probably be playing a more interesting game if you could do that, then go back to macro or something else. The fact that the answer to the problem is so boring means I think it might as well be fixed.
First I discovered this issue when I bought cherry mx switchers keyboard. Some of my actions were just "ignored". I realized at that time that holding one of the mouse buttons pressed completely blocked the keyboard input. I ran WC3 and I was surprised that there was no such problem there. I contacted MCA, described the problem and he figured out how to fix it. So now you have an option in MCA Launcher - Shitty Plugin > Keyboard Access > Fix keyboard ignoring (it could sound differently in english version of MCA cause I've translated it from russian). Conclusion: In my opinion this issue should be completely fixed at least in Remastered.
As this in fact affects balance, only the opinions of professionals should be considered when messing with aspects like this. If Flash, Jaedong, Effort, Bisu,.. agree that it can be fixed, I will not complain.
Not registering commands because keys block clicks and vice versa should be addressed and possibly fixed.
On April 20 2017 23:48 marwin wrote: First I discovered this issue when I bought cherry mx switchers keyboard. Some of my actions were just "ignored". I realized at that time that holding one of the mouse buttons pressed completely blocked the keyboard input. I ran WC3 and I was surprised that there was no such problem there. I contacted MCA, described the problem and he figured out how to fix it. So now you have an option in MCA Launcher - Shitty Plugin > Keyboard Access > Fix keyboard ignoring (it could sound differently in english version of MCA cause I've translated it from russian). Conclusion: In my opinion this issue should be completely fixed at least in Remastered.
It is "fix lost keyboard input", but it doesn`t work all the time. Or maybe I press 2 keys at once (3a for ex.) and this is the issue, maybe the plugin/game registers both key commands and ignores clicks afterwards? (not necessarily ignores the keys, just the click, because the units won`t move)
On March 30 2017 23:03 outscar wrote: I got some input issues related to spamming. On 1.16 if you holded key f.e. 3 (CC) and while holding that key if you clicked to minerals you could switch between CC and minerals. In this version if I click to minerals while holding my CC key and then release my click my screen doesn't go back to CC thus I need to push my 3 (CC) hotkey again. Hope I could explain. If not I will try to rec a video.
Nice that someone finally noted this out. This thing should be fixed immediately! I mean just give back before input. Please post this on Battle.net forum as well.
This is the intended behavior that we're supposed to have. When mouse button is down, all inputs are 'ignored' until its lifted up (this is same for 1.16, not just exclusive to 1.18). The only difference is that when mouse is lifted up, 1.16 will still accept the key press that's held down vs 1.18 ignoring it completely. I wonder if this also has to do with repeating key not working in 1.18 (previously, if you held down a control group hotkey, it would 'repeatedly' send the input).
This also means that people who used the fix keyboard input for MCA was basically gaining unfair advantage over other people.
On April 20 2017 23:48 marwin wrote: First I discovered this issue when I bought cherry mx switchers keyboard. Some of my actions were just "ignored". I realized at that time that holding one of the mouse buttons pressed completely blocked the keyboard input. I ran WC3 and I was surprised that there was no such problem there. I contacted MCA, described the problem and he figured out how to fix it. So now you have an option in MCA Launcher - Shitty Plugin > Keyboard Access > Fix keyboard ignoring (it could sound differently in english version of MCA cause I've translated it from russian). Conclusion: In my opinion this issue should be completely fixed at least in Remastered.
I had to whip out my DT-35 to double check: keyboard doesn't really matter.
There is something obviously wrong with hotkeys in 1.18 compared to 1.16. I have tested it and creating camera locations were possible holding m1 down in 1.16 and i find my self constantly having to redo them because it is not working in 1.18. Also shift queing units into control groups also fail sometimes and I suspect people who dont notice these things have only played 1.18 and dont know how the game should feel.
I consider this to be a critical quality of life change.
This is one of the main reasons why I will continue to use mca64launcher.
Not providing a fix to this is unacceptable. This goes far beyond just "playing cleaner." It borders on frustration. If I input a command sequence, it should work. I should not have to check to see if my camera location was set properly every time I re-rally. I should not be punished for holding my mouse down a millisecond too long after I pressed a camera location key to set it.
This seems to happen far more in 1.18 than it did in 1.16, and I'm not sure why. Please fix!
I think many agree, that something feels different. It is however difficult to draw a conclusion based on just a feeling. In this post I'll show you a more scientific approach to compare the reaction of both starcraft versions. Unfortunately I tried it myself and did not find a difference in the behavior, so maybe this is not the best idea. But just in case someone wants to try:
1. Get the program Window Detective 2. Start starcraft in window mode and Window Detective 3. Use "Pick Window" and drag the cross on the starcraft window, there is now one window in the list on the left selected 4. Right click on the window, then click on "Messages..." 5. Click on the filter icon, then "Exclude All" 6. Select WM_KEYDOWN, maybe WM_KEYUP (probably not interesting), WM_LBUTTONDOWN, WM_LBUTTONUP and click OK 7. Now you can see all the inputs starcraft receives from windows, if you want you can clear the list with the rubber icon and expand the entries using the triangle
One thing I noticed is that if the click comes too fast after the a button ~20ms starcraft will ignore it. But this seems consistent in both versions. Unfortunately I have not found a difference between the versions, but at the same time I don't know a better way to get objective data.
In 1.16.1 mouse blocked keyboard input when pressed but when key pressed it didn't block mouse like in 1.18. What we need for 1.18:
- When key pressed it shouldn't block mouse - When mouse pressed it shouldn't block key - When hotkey hold screen should follow hotkeyed unit/building (worked on 1.16.1) instead of pressing that key again and again.
I've always found this very annoying, even back in the day... It's the only thing that bothers me when playing bw again. I would be glad if they changed it.
Just my opinion, but I'm against any changes to anything that changes how the game itself is played.
It's part of BW that the inputs have to be super precise and that control is incredibly hard. If you take that away you destroy my game, yes, even the keyboard-mouse-input-conflict.
Arguments about playability, especially making it easier than it is for new (or old) players - that's what all the proposed changes are about at the core - are all valid, they all make the game easier or more convenient if you want to put it that way. But no, I feel this game is meant to be exactly how it is, with all the quirks as absurd and annoying as they may be. That it it has been like this forever is part of what makes this game nostalgic and awesome. Make a new one if you want another.
What's the point in getting angry about losing a game here and there for these random difficulties? They're even for everyone. Practicing more makes the problem go away.
I just see a lurking danger here, considering what happened to SC2. "It's just a minor change, it's unintended, only that one."... Give somebody an inch, and... + Show Spoiler +
tomorrow we have smart casting... YES, this is a possible end of the story. But of course today it sounds absurd and I shouldn't bother...
Your example isn't a good one. Good players already adopted to this and are not really impacted. So fixing that would change nothing for them at all. Smartcasting would change the game for everyone dramatically. Fixing this would take away frustration from new or lower tier players (like me), but it would not give me an edge or advantage or anything. When the game ignores your commands, that is no different from having lags or packet loss. It will frustrate you but there is not really anything you can do about it. It is a ridiculous idea that moving your focus to releasing the mouse before pressing the keyboard is something you will ever be able to do while playing Starcraft, unless you are sub 30 APM (and even then I doubt it). And even if you really want to consider this an advantage that is granted to the bottom segment of players, what's the impact? Imagine having a really tense and close game and then winning because half your opponents army did not enter the final battle because the game ignored the commands he gave. That's like winning a 45 minute game because your opponent had a disconnect. That sucks for everyone. This needs to be fixed.
I always have this happen to my control groups so that's why I spam them to 1a2a3a4a two or three times. Another way around this is to never play for the late game where you need that many control groups.
I can't tell you why but I seem to do that all the time. Somewhere in time I just internalized releasing the mouse while clicking the buttons and so I start struggling with this the moment i have more than one control group. Playing Terran you have a second group the moment you have the first medic and you lose games the moment that 1-3 medics don't follow your marines right away. When you do 1a2a3a and it results in 1aa3a and just by that you lose the game, you want to break your keyboard.
Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
This would only improve the micro of players who hold down the mouse click button for longer than others. So if you're quick to let go M1 it shouldn't change anything, however mouse release time blocking keyboard inputs is an interesting discussion, it would be an even field if it was removed in a sense, and it would still reward the faster player.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
On April 20 2017 23:48 marwin wrote: First I discovered this issue when I bought cherry mx switchers keyboard. Some of my actions were just "ignored". I realized at that time that holding one of the mouse buttons pressed completely blocked the keyboard input. I ran WC3 and I was surprised that there was no such problem there. I contacted MCA, described the problem and he figured out how to fix it. So now you have an option in MCA Launcher - Shitty Plugin > Keyboard Access > Fix keyboard ignoring (it could sound differently in english version of MCA cause I've translated it from russian). Conclusion: In my opinion this issue should be completely fixed at least in Remastered.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Eh yes, I can and I will. And I shudder to think what the pro's will be able to do when H/P are on more accessible keys, combined with the fact that switching between control groups and performing your shots will become easy as hell.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Eh yes, I can and I will. And I shudder to think what the pro's will be able to do when H/P are on more accessible keys, combined with the fact that switching between control groups and performing your shots will become easy as hell.
I agree with you completely. The game will surely be too easy. It is way too easy now. I can micro 3 groups of mutalisks with one hand.. on keyboard only. Since I think it is only fair everyone becomes as l33t as me, BW Remastered should also remove mouse support. Only then the true skill of the game can shine.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
Your Elitism and douchebaggery is over 9000 atm.
It's not elitism. I don't care how bad at Broodwar you are. I care that you don't actually care about Broodwar.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
Your Elitism and douchebaggery is over 9000 atm.
It's not elitism. I don't care how bad at Broodwar you are. I care that you don't actually care about Broodwar.
I do care about Broodwar, I want it to succeed and replace SC2 as main esport RTS in Korea and the West. But unlike you I understand that it needs some (to you painful) changes to succeed.
The issue in this topic should be fixed, it is more of a bug then a balance concern. Talking like it is not is pure elitism.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
Your Elitism and douchebaggery is over 9000 atm.
It's not elitism. I don't care how bad at Broodwar you are. I care that you don't actually care about Broodwar.
I do care about Broodwar, I want it to succeed and replace SC2 as main esport RTS in Korea and the West. But unlike you I understand that it needs some (to your painful) changes to succeed.
The issue in this topic should be fixed, it is more of a bug then a balance concern. Talking like it is not is pure elitism.
Broodwar is what it is. Turning it into something it's not isn't the way forward. SC2 design paradigms will land it right next to SC2.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
Your Elitism and douchebaggery is over 9000 atm.
It's not elitism. I don't care how bad at Broodwar you are. I care that you don't actually care about Broodwar.
I do care about Broodwar, I want it to succeed and replace SC2 as main esport RTS in Korea and the West. But unlike you I understand that it needs some (to your painful) changes to succeed.
The issue in this topic should be fixed, it is more of a bug then a balance concern. Talking like it is not is pure elitism.
Broodwar is what it is. Turning it into something it's not isn't the way forward. SC2 design paradigms will land it right next to SC2.
Maybe or maybe it will bring it glory. Also when changing BW I am talking small changes, not turning it into sc2 mod. But that is a topic for another thread.
This one is talking about an issue I never seen in any other RTS, issue that is more of a conflict between two basic control devices for the game, I don't have any doubt they ever intended this to be part of design like 12 unit selection limit was.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
Your Elitism and douchebaggery is over 9000 atm.
It's not elitism. I don't care how bad at Broodwar you are. I care that you don't actually care about Broodwar.
I do care about Broodwar, I want it to succeed and replace SC2 as main esport RTS in Korea and the West. But unlike you I understand that it needs some (to your painful) changes to succeed.
The issue in this topic should be fixed, it is more of a bug then a balance concern. Talking like it is not is pure elitism.
Broodwar is what it is. Turning it into something it's not isn't the way forward. SC2 design paradigms will land it right next to SC2.
Maybe or maybe it will bring it glory. Also when changing BW I am talking small changes, not turning it into sc2 mod. But that is a topic for another thread.
This one is talking about an issue I never seen in any other RTS, issue that is more of a conflict between two basic control devices for the game, I don't have any doubt they ever intended this to be part of design like 12 unit selection limit was.
I don't give a shit what they intended. Broodwar isn't great because the designers were geniuses. They got lucky. Almost everything in the game is a bug or an oversight or some random bullshit like somebody hiding stuff in the code. I don't care.
I don't care if they picked 12 specifically after months of thought and testing or they rolled dice or it was due to hardware limitations or they meant to type 20 and it's a typo. I don't care. The author is dead.
Don't change it. Don't try to design it. Don't set the precedent that it's changeable or fixable or improvable. It is what it is.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Yea I wanted to say just that but I was going to get the "lol under 20 posts" reply.
Well Archangel is just going to get a "you don't play Broodwar and won't for more than 2 days at most if HD catches your eye and have no interest or understanding in the longevity of the game and your primary motivation seems to be validating your ideas about what is and is not good about SC2. Please stop." reply anyway. Same thing.
Your Elitism and douchebaggery is over 9000 atm.
It's not elitism. I don't care how bad at Broodwar you are. I care that you don't actually care about Broodwar.
I do care about Broodwar, I want it to succeed and replace SC2 as main esport RTS in Korea and the West. But unlike you I understand that it needs some (to your painful) changes to succeed.
The issue in this topic should be fixed, it is more of a bug then a balance concern. Talking like it is not is pure elitism.
Broodwar is what it is. Turning it into something it's not isn't the way forward. SC2 design paradigms will land it right next to SC2.
Maybe or maybe it will bring it glory. Also when changing BW I am talking small changes, not turning it into sc2 mod. But that is a topic for another thread.
This one is talking about an issue I never seen in any other RTS, issue that is more of a conflict between two basic control devices for the game, I don't have any doubt they ever intended this to be part of design like 12 unit selection limit was.
I don't give a shit what they intended. Broodwar isn't great because the designers were geniuses. They got lucky. Almost everything in the game is a bug or an oversight or some random bullshit like somebody hiding stuff in the code. I don't care.
I don't care if they picked 12 specifically after months of thought and testing or they rolled dice or it was due to hardware limitations or they meant to type 20 and it's a typo. I don't care. The author is dead.
Don't change it. Don't try to design it. Don't set the precedent that it's changeable or fixable or improvable. It is what it is.
Word. And Brood War does not need to change SC2 in Korea. BW was always higher already.
I remember having trouble with this, but I always thought my keyboard was to blame. So I voted yes, but I'm having second thoughts after reading some of the posts here. I appreciate not having this problem is having better timing/rhythm on your keyboard, which comes with time - being mechanically better. Not sure.
On May 25 2017 03:28 B-royal wrote: Yeah it's important to keep the status quo. If this would get changed, I will be microing 2 control groups of mutalisk every game with absolute ease. Even more so if it gets combined with custom hotkeys.
WTF? No.
Eh yes, I can and I will. And I shudder to think what the pro's will be able to do when H/P are on more accessible keys, combined with the fact that switching between control groups and performing your shots will become easy as hell.
I agree with you completely. The game will surely be too easy. It is way too easy now. I can micro 3 groups of mutalisks with one hand.. on keyboard only. Since I think it is only fair everyone becomes as l33t as me, BW Remastered should also remove mouse support. Only then the true skill of the game can shine.
Why not use 1rightclick2rightclick3rightclick etc. instead to make sure all your units at least start moving towards the destination first, then use 1a2a3a4a? At least you can make sure your units will arrive. It will be less efficient use of your apm but at least you can make sure they are moving. A bit like worker splitting where you select all workers to move first then micromanage specific units.
Of course it should be fixed. I can't really tell if the people saying it shouldn't be fixed are trolling or not. "LOLOLOL FIXING INPUT BUGS WILL TURN IT INTO SC2" eeh ok....
Has there even been a good explanation on why this is a thing? I think its more relevant then ever. Its just artificial bullshit which should have been flushed with Remastered
I seriously hopes blizzard fixes this. It's so annoying and it's almost a dealbreaker for me playing the game at all. Just feels bad and poorly coded. Like playing tennis with a broken racket.
I was wondering why this was happening... for the record ive played BW for years and never had this problem, so they actually introduced something wrong in this new version, its not about making the game easier, just bring back the way it was...
This still works for me sometimes. But most of the time I get an error. Is anyone capable of reprogramming this so that it works in the new BW? The source code is posted.
On February 18 2018 00:42 orvinreyes wrote: No. This is like playing the piano with all keys pressed at the same time and expecting to play a decent melody
2 Buttons=Barbaric. The elitest has spoken. People quit the game due artificial bullshit like that. But who cares, right? Brood War scene has to be big enough....or?
I understand that some mechanics in BW require learning a certain rhythm (in particular for micro), and this is actually such a mechanic (on a difficulty level similar to what f.e. mario speed runners do). Making this change would change the skill required from an optimized feel for the rhythm to being able to do faster inputs.
That being said, I don't think it would have a noticable impact on the skill gap, because it would give faster players one more aspect in the game to gain an advantage over slower players, so the required skill just changes.
I'm one of the people who want to keep BW the way it is. That being said, with BW:R we've already gone from the original graphics settings to wide screen settings. It was a massive change that significantly affects the way BW is being played today. The reason for this change was that the original settings were restrictive and unpopular.
This brings up the same old question: is change good just because of popular demand? In my opinion not. But in this case I think we can make an exception, because 1) I strongly doubt it affects the skill gap, 2) the required inputs remain unchanged (unlike f.e. increasing the unit selection cap or playing with wider graphics settings), 3) micro-management becomes less frustrating. Point 1 and 2 are the important arguments in my opinion.
The same cannot be said about the new graphics settings because they actually affected the required inputs (less scrolling required). So if we're ok with the new graphics but we're not ok with improving the inputs then that would be quite inconsistent, right?
Also, with my line of reasoning I don't think I'd be forced to argue in favor of an increased unit selection limit, because that quite clearly affects the skill gap and dumbs the game down. It was a major point of contention while SC2 was in development. So I think improving the inputs does not imply further changes to BW, and I think that's very important because every change should be discussed properly and separately.
On February 18 2018 16:50 Magic Powers wrote: I understand that some mechanics in BW require learning a certain rhythm (in particular for micro), and this is actually such a mechanic (on a difficulty level similar to what f.e. mario speed runners do). Making this change would change the skill required from an optimized feel for the rhythm to being able to do faster inputs.
That being said, I don't think it would have a noticable impact on the skill gap, because it would give faster players one more aspect in the game to gain an advantage over slower players, so the required skill just changes.
The key release rhythm is highly related to one's gear. What is considered a release on one keyboard, whether it's 1mm or 2mm from lowest position, is different on each keyboard. Keeping this restriction will favor people with certain gear.
I'm strongly for removing this limitation. This only happens in BW, not in windows, not in Counterstrike. Just BW.
Tho whole game dynamic has changed and I can no longer be the 300-400 apm player that I used to be. It's extremely frustrating to play to the point of not playing now. I'm using the exact same gear as before and I cannot do the same things.
On February 20 2018 03:10 Epocalypse wrote: Tho whole game dynamic has changed and I can no longer be the 300-400 apm player that I used to be. It's extremely frustrating to play to the point of not playing now. I'm using the exact same gear as before and I cannot do the same things.
I'm not sure what you mean. This input restriction has been there since SC came out, so if you didn't change your hardware then there shouldn't be a difference. If you notice a difference despite not changing your hardware then that's not a true observation. Basically if it's frustrating for you now, it should've always been frustrating for you.
Either way, I'm also in favor of removing the restriction. Just wanted to clear that up.
I agree that removing the restriction will not meaningfully affect the skill gap between players. I believe there are many other mechanical and strategical issues that are much more substantial in the development of a "good" player. Consequently, I don't think it's something worth hanging one's hat on even as a hardcore "but muh skill gap" type of person. It is a matter of convenience and quality of life without an significant downside as far as I'm concerned.
On February 18 2018 00:42 orvinreyes wrote: No. This is like playing the piano with all keys pressed at the same time and expecting to play a decent melody
You can hold down twenty piano keys and press the other ones and it will STILL play a decent melody. This is because the piano doesn't have artificial restrictions based on coding. It only has physical restrictions.
It makes a huge difference between players. Most people miss a few buildings like barracks when they try to quickly macro with SK terran, and can't quickly move their entire army if it's more than a few control groups. Good players can, and removing that would reduce the skill involved. Why not just add MBS too? You want to macro like Flash or whatever progamer without actually learning the game, right?
I can't wait until the progamers start complaining to Blizzard about this issue. It's been in the game for 20 years, they must be fed up with it by now. The only issue I foresee is that once we remove these shackles, Blizzard will need to re-adjust how MMR is measured because all of the people whose skills and 500 APM have been held back all of these years will finally rise up and dominate the rest of us in droves. Flash better watch out. Let's campaign on twitter and get noticed!
Oh man I tried to play SC:R for a couple days after release and quit out of frustration due to this issue. Didn't know that's what was causing it, makes total sense, micro+macro was a nightmare. It's not intuitive and by no way shows any skill, should 110% be fixed.
On February 21 2018 01:29 Diamond wrote: Also looks like Day9 commented on this on Reddit.
Gotta agree with Day here. Also it wouldn't surprise me if all the condescending "git gud scrub" people in this thread were in fact playing on ICCup or another patched launcher and never experienced the input issues at all. They just think they did so that they can feel superior.
No foreigner is a top level player, and I would be immensely surprised if top koreans have been playing with input fixes. You can tell from the iconic sound of their mouse clicking whenever they have to a-move, that they're intentionally trying to circumvent the input block.
On February 21 2018 02:13 B-royal wrote: No foreigner is a top level player, and I would be immensely surprised if top koreans have been playing with input fixes. You can tell from the iconic sound of their mouse clicking whenever they have to a-move, that they're intentionally trying to circumvent the input block.
On one hand we have Day9, long time member and pillar of the community with unlimited access to top pros across the globe, and years upon years of experience both as a player and commentator.
The other side is a self described new BW player.
Think I'll trust Day9 on this one unless someone else with clout comes out and contradicts it.
Just even thinking about my past iCCup experiences back in 1.16 I don't remember ever running into this issue. I noticed it within the opening moves of SC:R. Maybe it was the multi year gap in between but I feel like this was not a major issue in old BW.
On February 21 2018 02:54 Magic Powers wrote: I never noticed an input fix anywhere between 2000 and 2010. I don't think what Day9 is saying is correct, I'd like confirmation for that.
It was never an official fix, it was a "click buffer" that was part of the various launchers that people used to connect to third party servers. I don't think it was ever KeSPA or tournament-legal.
I am also pretty sure that it was off by default in at least ICCup/Chaos launcher, meaning that unless you directly went and changed it, you were still playing with the same constraint.
On February 20 2018 16:52 Sero wrote: It makes a huge difference between players. Most people miss a few buildings like barracks when they try to quickly macro with SK terran, and can't quickly move their entire army if it's more than a few control groups. Good players can, and removing that would reduce the skill involved. Why not just add MBS too? You want to macro like Flash or whatever progamer without actually learning the game, right?
This made me actually chuckle. What an absurd false equivalency.
at 12th second of the clip I do 1sd2sd3sd4sd5sd If you watch frame by frame, you will see that there was a frame with "1" pressed, then some frames with nothing pressed, then there were some frames with only "S" pressed, then some frames with nothing pressed, then some frames with only "D" pressed. At 3SD something even peculiar happens, between "S" and "D" I don't see a frame where nothing is pressed, and you could kinda say it's my fault, but there is no frame when 2 keys are pressed at once, I was just fast. This sequence of actions, did not result in 1 and 3 Hatchery building drones.
That's not a mouse issue, mouse buttons were not pressed in that clip. That's not my keyboard issue, since you see on the screen what my computer got from my keyboard, the buttons were pressed. That's a Starcraft issue. It makes SC:R unplayable for me.
As soon as I improved to 150+ APM in SC:R I could not take it anymore. Playing while game does not register what I pressed was not fun to say the least.
at 12th second of the clip I do 1sd2sd3sd4sd5sd If you watch frame by frame, you will see that there was a frame with "1" pressed, then some frames with nothing pressed, then there were some frames with only "S" pressed, then some frames with nothing pressed, then some frames with only "D" pressed. At 3SD something even peculiar happens, between "S" and "D" I don't see a frame where nothing is pressed, and you could kinda say it's my fault, but there is no frame when 2 keys are pressed at once, I was just fast. This sequence of actions, did not result in 1 and 3 Hatchery building drones.
That's not a mouse issue, mouse buttons were not pressed in that clip. That's not my keyboard issue, since you see on the screen what my computer got from my keyboard, the buttons were pressed. That's a Starcraft issue. It makes SC:R unplayable for me.
As soon as I improved to 150+ APM in SC:R I could not take it anymore. Playing while game does not register what I pressed was not fun to say the least.
this is the real problem. from my understanding (how i think it is working), when selecting units, it takes a certain amount of time (based on TR/lag) for the interface/commands to update. with low TR (+ lag), macro as zerg takes a long time, just waiting out the selection delay... or repeating everything 2-3times so im not sure if they can solve that, because it would affect all units, but as long as it doesnt break any current tech (e.g.:moving larva left with overlord) i would be really happy if they solved that.
PS: i think this is a zerg only problem because larva = units, if not, feel free to correct me.
at 12th second of the clip I do 1sd2sd3sd4sd5sd If you watch frame by frame, you will see that there was a frame with "1" pressed, then some frames with nothing pressed, then there were some frames with only "S" pressed, then some frames with nothing pressed, then some frames with only "D" pressed. At 3SD something even peculiar happens, between "S" and "D" I don't see a frame where nothing is pressed, and you could kinda say it's my fault, but there is no frame when 2 keys are pressed at once, I was just fast. This sequence of actions, did not result in 1 and 3 Hatchery building drones.
That's not a mouse issue, mouse buttons were not pressed in that clip. That's not my keyboard issue, since you see on the screen what my computer got from my keyboard, the buttons were pressed. That's a Starcraft issue. It makes SC:R unplayable for me.
As soon as I improved to 150+ APM in SC:R I could not take it anymore. Playing while game does not register what I pressed was not fun to say the least.
this is the real problem. from my understanding (how i think it is working), when selecting units, it takes a certain amount of time (based on TR/lag) for the interface/commands to update. with low TR (+ lag), macro as zerg takes a long time, just waiting out the selection delay... or repeating everything 2-3times so im not sure if they can solve that, because it would affect all units, but as long as it doesnt break any current tech (e.g.:moving larva left with overlord) i would be really happy if they solved that.
PS: i think this is a zerg only problem because larva = units, if not, feel free to correct me.
I think it's the same regardless of turn rate since both inputs are equally delayed. I think the delay applies to buildings as well, I've heard terrans complain about the minimum manual input delay, but since it takes more actions to create a unit as zerg it's more noticeable I think.
Either way, I really hope more attention is brought to this, it's been driving me crazy for years and I can't seem to get used to the delay. I don't think any harm would be done by fixing it.
Sorry for reviving this, but when remastered came out I was so hyped coming back to SC after years - only to stop after a hand full of games because I lost so many games because the game did not register some important inputs. When I found out this is a bug I felt relieved because it's not just me and hopeful that this would be fixed soon. I put SC aside and then life happened for a while. Two days ago I came back to the game and found out that bug is still here and, since it's probably super easy to fix, it might stay here forever. Imagine the game that defined your youth and big chunks of your life being brought back but in a way that makes it impossible to play for you (and a bunch of others). FML..
EDIT: I found out even Day9 supported that this bug should be fixed as it was fixed ages ago in multiple launchers, so lot's of pro's might have played without this bug their whole career. How can you even argue with Day9?
On November 19 2018 18:06 Chosi wrote: Sorry for reviving this, but when remastered came out I was so hyped coming back to SC after years - only to stop after a hand full of games because I lost so many games because the game did not register some important inputs. When I found out this is a bug I felt relieved because it's not just me and hopeful that this would be fixed soon. I put SC aside and then life happened for a while. Two days ago I came back to the game and found out that bug is still here and, since it's probably super easy to fix, it might stay here forever. Imagine the game that defined your youth and big chunks of your life being brought back but in a way that makes it impossible to play for you (and a bunch of others). FML..
EDIT: I found out even Day9 supported that this bug should be fixed as it was fixed ages ago in multiple launchers, so lot's of pro's might have played without this bug their whole career. How can you even argue with Day9?
I'd hardly call it a bug. It's just how it was designed... in '98
I'd hardly call it a bug. It's just how it was designed... in '98
1. It's annoying as hell and cost you games. 2. It could be fixed by launchers back in 1.16.1 days and people did not complain (I believe). 3. Clearly more votes to fix this. Could be just foreigners. I would like to see what Koreans think about it. 4. The most important point - Day9 approves the fix.
what lol, people are gonna argue from authority based on the fact that Day[9] thinks a certain change is good? at least have your own argument to back up your points
also quadrox, not to pick on you specifically, but your point #1 is true of pretty much everything that can go wrong in bw
On November 20 2018 02:10 badpenny wrote: what lol, people are gonna argue from authority based on the fact that Day[9] thinks a certain change is good? at least have your own argument to back up your points
also quadrox, not to pick on you specifically, but your point #1 is true of pretty much everything that can go wrong in bw
You shouldn't question Day[9]'s authority here. Yes #1 is pretty much everything in the game, can ignore that. Tbh I would very much like to see some data on what Korean progamers think about that fix.
On November 20 2018 05:11 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Day9 doesn't even play the game anymore. His opinion is worthless, as he will not be affected by any changes
Jesus Christ, every football coach is useless as shit since they dont participate in actually playing the game. Even so you dont know how often day9 plays the game
personally, i just meant that Day[9] is only one people out of many who have both an opinion on this and some standing within the bw community, so saying his opinion is automatically right is not valid or reasonable. he's not the pope of brood war
Honestly I think it's just a QoL feature that will help out lowbies a bit more. Most higher-end pro's have gotten over the issue and still win games. It's not really something that should win or loss games for you unless you're actively trying to ignore it. Once you get in the rhythm it's avoidable.
However, I think it helps out lowbies to have it removed and makes the game a bit more accessible without costing too much "Brood War is perfect how it is".
I looked closely at the clip of chuDr3t4 and recognized the following things:
1) Hatchery HK have essentially no delay. 2) Initiating select Larva command has basically no delay (The blue highlight of the larva button (bottom right) reacts within 1 frame) 3) From the (blue) signal that S has been pressed to the interface actually changing to display the larva there is a non-constant delay
For Hatch 2: 1 Frame: press S --> Blue Highlight | 2 Frames: Blue Highlight --> Show Larva For Hatch 3: 1 Frame: press S --> Blue Highlight | 4 Frames: Blue Highlight --> Show Larva For Hatch 5: 1 Frame: press S --> Blue Highlight | 1 Frame: Blue Highlight --> Show Larva
4) Build Drone behaves like select larva, where the indication of the command happens reliably fast, while the execution of the command varies and can be slow.
Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
It does change something at higher levels. There's a clear difference between how fast a pro can macro vs a top amateur, and even pros make mistakes.
You just need to pracitce more, as 30 games is literally nothing, while also remembering that the opponent is dealing with the same bullshit you are.
I find worrying how people are using the hotkey changes as an excuse to justify more changes. The fact that the hotkeys are here to stay is not influenced by whether or not they are good for the game. Blizzard decided it's going to be this way and that's it. Long gone are the times of Blizzard listening to the community, and/or releasing patches in a timely fashion.
There's also a questionable connection between hotkeys and input detection. I can see them being related in the sense that both are part of the "you against the computer" section of the game, but by removing anything that falls under this umbrella you'd end up destroying the game completely. Just because you're bad at something, doesn't mean it's bullshit. Different players will be good at different things.
The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
The thing is, this isn't a random problem. It can be replicated and predicted. It just seems random because it can be subtle at times and the sheer speed and the amount of clicks. I'll put this into the same category as units freezing under the hold position command. Now if you think that's an issue that needs addressed then fair enough on both accounts. I compare this to two football teams playing in the rain. On a case by case basis there may be unfair results but on a larger scale, everyone is playing the same game.
I will say that I wouldn't be upset if this was fixed but I'm more or less indifferent.
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
It does change something at higher levels. There's a clear difference between how fast a pro can macro vs a top amateur, and even pros make mistakes.
You just need to pracitce more, as 30 games is literally nothing, while also remembering that the opponent is dealing with the same bullshit you are.
I find worrying how people are using the hotkey changes as an excuse to justify more changes. The fact that the hotkeys are here to stay is not influenced by whether or not they are good for the game. Blizzard decided it's going to be this way and that's it. Long gone are the times of Blizzard listening to the community, and/or releasing patches in a timely fashion.
There's also a questionable connection between hotkeys and input detection. I can see them being related in the sense that both are part of the "you against the computer" section of the game, but by removing anything that falls under this umbrella you'd end up destroying the game completely. Just because you're bad at something, doesn't mean it's bullshit. Different players will be good at different things.
The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
They listen to the community? No they dont, if they would listen, it would have been gone with Remastered release. That mca64Launcher had a blockage fixed. That poll is obviously for a change. I highly doubt that Keyboard/Mouse block was high on the "What to keep" list
By the way, the fact that this kind of "cheat" was available for everyone should have provoced some kind of War between purists and cheater. Was there such a thing in the iccup community?
On December 02 2018 05:03 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
Funny that you bring up a fighting game, because in that genre, horse shit like this would not fly.
On December 02 2018 05:03 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
Funny that you bring up a fighting game, because in that genre, horse shit like this would not fly.
It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
On December 02 2018 08:09 Paloier wrote: It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
Input delay (present in every RTS as well due to lockstep) and rollback are necessary evils, online. These things do not exist in offline games, and if a fighting game had universal lag also applying to offline, there would be backlash. (Didn't that happen once?)
And did you already forget this?
Patch 1.18.0 Improved gameplay responsiveness during multiplayer by increasing turn rate to match LAN speeds over Battle.net.
In any case, people seem to look at SC2 and correlate any kind of quality of life changes with a worse game, and have this knee jerk reaction to any proposal to improve BW, when in reality, there was much more wrong with SC2 besides it being coded properly.
This is a straight up bug, up there with the terrain height fuck ups. There should be no issue with rolling out a PTR trying out the fixes to these, and seeing if it ruins everything, which it won't either way.
On December 02 2018 08:09 Paloier wrote: It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
Input delay (present in every RTS as well due to lockstep) and rollback are necessary evils, online. These things do not exist in offline games, and if a fighting game had universal lag also applying to offline, there would be backlash. (Didn't that happen once?)
6ms, which is less than a frame, is not lag. A stable lag of 6ms would mean that the developer went extra lengths to poll inputs at 166 Hz, which is a decent idea and you could possibly go even higher. So I guess that you meant frames. 6 frames however, is not okay, it's pretty damn far from okay. 6 frames is 96ms at 60 Hz. (I'd imagine even BW has something like 2 frames delay at Low, that's about the bare minimum for lockstep, and it would be about 80ms at TR24) Ask any Quake player if they'd like to play a match with you at 96 ping. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with low and high load situations, which can be fixed by polling the inputs on a fixed timer, and buffering them. What you linked describes something different; a mixture of Meme Engine issues, developer incompetence typical for Japan, and boneheaded online parity. I don't remember games doing this shit 10 years ago. The article also mentions that people are, rightly, pissed about this state of affairs. (But they'll still buy the latest installment, because gamers are battered wives)
I launched Tekken 6 just to check if this hasn't slipped under my nose before, and I'll eat my hat if that has an input delay of 6 or 7 frames. T3 still feels somewhat faster but it's probably just the animations. Online fighting games are fine with rollback alone anyway, extra delay doesn't seem necessary.
But what we're essentially discussing here is not delay (which BW does have and it's necessary because brute syncing 3200 zerglings will kill anyone's internet, we're only sending commands) but buffering (which BW could use).
On December 02 2018 08:09 Paloier wrote: It does fly, in almost every game. Those games have input lag, frame delay or whatever to compensate for lag. Not that it helps, since most of those games run like shit in matchmaking anyway. Or run simply worse on console. Pretty sure they have it on "offline" events as well. Kinda like Warcraft 3 had a high ping for everyone on battle.net
Input delay (present in every RTS as well due to lockstep) and rollback are necessary evils, online. These things do not exist in offline games, and if a fighting game had universal lag also applying to offline, there would be backlash. (Didn't that happen once?)
Patch 1.18.0 Improved gameplay responsiveness during multiplayer by increasing turn rate to match LAN speeds over Battle.net.
In any case, people seem to look at SC2 and correlate any kind of quality of life changes with a worse game, and have this knee jerk reaction to any proposal to improve BW, when in reality, there was much more wrong with SC2 besides it being coded properly.
This is a straight up bug, up there with the terrain height fuck ups. There should be no issue with rolling out a PTR trying out the fixes to these, and seeing if it ruins everything, which it won't either way.
It's irrelevant if it's a bug or not. Half the tricks we use today are bugs or unintended behavior, and it works out just fine. On top of that, it has consistent behavior, which means you can anticipate and compensate for systematically (just release your mouse buttons faster).
What you're suggesting is a gameplay change, as it affects how the game is played. QoL would be being able to select the opponents color, or revealing the entire map once the match ends (so you can check your opponents bases). Games are not home appliances though, in which the goal is to make things as easy as possible. In a video-game the fun IS the challenge.
To further illustrate, let's say I buy a peeler cause I'm not very good with a knife. In that case, I fully expect to be able to peel apples faster, and my quality of life will improve because of it. However, if instead I was playing a game about peeling apples, a peeler changes the game completely.
Like I showed you, even at pro level this limitation affects how fast you can go, so you just have to slow down if you're not precise enough. Time and practice will allow you to do it faster and without thinking, just like all the other mechanical aspects of the game.
On November 22 2018 00:51 zerglingling wrote: Fixing this would not ruin the game. Hotkeys did not ruin the game, and they were more impactful. I can't recall a single competitive game that was ruined by an input fix or a framerate fix.
If I win because I know about this issue and my opponent doesn't, I don't feel that I earned that win.
Imagine if due to a coding bug, every unit on every 8th pixel dealt more damage. You'd suddenly get a whole metagame about aligning your units to mod 8 positions. Now imagine how this looks to someone learning or spectating the game, when they find out about it. Bullshit is the word you'd probably hear them say most often. If people have to do unfun, unsatisfying and obtuse things in order to win, the game usually suffers for it. Depth is good. Bullshit isn't.
Default hotkeys were bullshit. Sprite limit was bullshit. This is bullshit as well.
It doesn't change anything for good or pro players but helps bad or new players. It's about making the game accessible and less frustrating on the lower levels, which helps everyone in the long run. Played about 30 games and this is still killing me. When you start to focus on decision making and macro there is simply no way to also focus on pressing buttons slowly and correctly. For everyone who can't relate, just imagine SC randomly ignored mouse clicks. Really hope they fix this one :-/
It does change something at higher levels. There's a clear difference between how fast a pro can macro vs a top amateur, and even pros make mistakes.
You just need to pracitce more, as 30 games is literally nothing, while also remembering that the opponent is dealing with the same bullshit you are.
I find worrying how people are using the hotkey changes as an excuse to justify more changes. The fact that the hotkeys are here to stay is not influenced by whether or not they are good for the game. Blizzard decided it's going to be this way and that's it. Long gone are the times of Blizzard listening to the community, and/or releasing patches in a timely fashion.
There's also a questionable connection between hotkeys and input detection. I can see them being related in the sense that both are part of the "you against the computer" section of the game, but by removing anything that falls under this umbrella you'd end up destroying the game completely. Just because you're bad at something, doesn't mean it's bullshit. Different players will be good at different things.
The reason why it's impressive to see pros play is because of how hard it is to reach that level of intentionality. If Daigo could've parried Chun-Li's ultra with the same leniency in Third Strike that you can in SFV nobody would be talking about it fourteen years later.
They listen to the community? No they dont, if they would listen, it would have been gone with Remastered release. That mca64Launcher had a blockage fixed. That poll is obviously for a change. I highly doubt that Keyboard/Mouse block was high on the "What to keep" list
By the way, the fact that this kind of "cheat" was available for everyone should have provoced some kind of War between purists and cheater. Was there such a thing in the iccup community?
Mca launcher's fix didn't work properly, specially at high apm, which is the use case benefiting the most from it. I wasn't active when it was released so I can't speak for any divide in the community.
I'll just add that overcoming this problem with your skill and developing pr0 habits to slam m1 to a-move your army is really trivial. You can nail it in a day or two, feel really proud of yourself and file it under "self-improvement" in that little pink diary you hide under your pillow.
It also destroys your fucking mouse and makes you buy a new one way faster than you should, unless you know how to solder a microswitch in and where to order those from. And I won't be telling you that. You'll be stuck attempting to follow youtube videos about opening a microswitch and reforging the little piece of copper back into shape. Then you'll give up and buy the latest progamer endorsed mouse, happily throwing your current one away and contributing to the already overflowing landfills. Ergo, the people in favor of not fixing this bug are literally killing the planet and we should just cube them and feed them to cows.
No. These people are going to share a gulag with pineapple pizza enthusiasts, and will be forced to play competitive connect-four until the end of time.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2zC6gkd.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/onXIXxT.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/u10XALN.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YYqEmsp.jpg)
You'll be stuck attempting to follow youtube videos about opening a microswitch and reforging the little piece of copper back into shape. Then you'll give up and buy the latest progamer endorsed mouse, happily throwing your current one away and contributing to the already overflowing landfills. Ergo, the people in favor of not fixing this bug are literally killing the planet and we should just cube them and feed them to cows.
