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Long time fan of broodwar but mostly lurk on forums, but I had to comment that this was such a satisfying post. Great read!
On April 19 2017 03:51 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 00:57 Pr0wler wrote:On April 16 2017 13:24 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2017 12:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 16 2017 09:40 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2017 04:50 fickazzz wrote:Wouldn't suggest to start until they implement custom hotkeys actually >_< Really big bummer that they deleted them for 1.18  Or how about starting with the same hotkeys that everyone started with, and learn those, so that it doesn't matter to you if the hotkeys are implemented or not? Why is this not an option for so many people? I already answered this. Because a lot of people come from sc2 and want to keep playing that game. Two different hotkey setups are simply annoying to deal with. "Because a lot of people come from sc2 and want to keep playing that game" This is a different game though? Yes it is different game, with horrible hotkey placement. I can't see a reason to not include hotkey remapping - it's pretty much required feature by today's standards for games. If I want to play with just the Numpad (or with my 20 button mouse), I should be able to do it. It doesn't change the game mechanics in any way so I can't see the issue. It changes the dexterity requirement for the game when you can make all abilities for each race Q W and E. I feel that the dexterity requirement is part of what makes Brood War challenging, and is part of the experience that has been a standard for all players for nearly two decades. Changing it just so that new players with low tolerance for dexterity challenges might have a slightly easier time getting bopped before they quit and move on to a new game is not a priority in my eyes. Anyone who can't learn the mechanics required for a specific game and want to make the game conform to them and their prior experience with SC2 and not the other way around are unlikely to stand the test of time or contribute much of anything to the community, because in reality, what will a D- noob contribute? In my lengthy experience with Brood War and on TL, history says that D- noobs contribute three things: 1. Easy stepping stone on ladder. 2. D-rank oriented tournaments, events, etc., which is great and commendable. I think this is an important part of the foreign community. 3. Shit posts on TL/Battle.net/reddit, wherever. Because what can a person who doesn't know shit contribute to a real-time strategy game? Pretty much nothing positive outside of what I mentioned in #2, which is very insular for people of the same low skill level, like the NHFFA community (which is admittedly great and fun, but as I said, very insular). Similarly, a person who is unwilling to learn the game as it was made and played for nearly 20 years is unlikely to progress past the first few skill-checks that will present themselves in a game that has a veteran playerbase. I'm not entirely against implementing hotkey remapping, in the sense that I won't throw a hissy fit or quit just because Blizzard made the game easier for noobs. They are still noobs. And mechanics at the pro level are more or less secondary at this point, so I don't expect it to change the only competition that really matters. I do, however, think that it is a manifestation of the entitled, spoonfed, low-effort, low-risk high-reward, casual gaming mentality that should be kept contained to the UMS, Fastest, and 3v3 BGH sectors of the game, which should have no say about what should or should not be in the competitive scene, including hotkey remapping. An analogy: A bunch of migrants enter your country and start pushing for legislation that is more favorable towards migrants while ignoring the fact that the laws have been the same for a long time and have worked well for the established citizens. The migrants only care about having an easier time in the country they just came to, without having to conform to the status quo. They try to make it so that the official language does not actually need to be learned, that their cultural norms should be enforced upon all, simply because they arrived hastily and in vast numbers. Then, after a few years, when a different country seems to offer a better grazing ground for them, they will depart en masse anew and not give two shits about the country they had recently come into, forced change upon, and effectively bent to their will simply because they shouted the loudest and angriest at the way things had been for well over a decade because it didn't fit their imagination of that country.
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Extremists like you always think they are the reasonable party, nothing new here.
Funny really that you think your close minded pov is the reasonable one when countless other people think it's not and actually call out the hardcore bw community for it over and over again. I tried to argue with you guys, but it doesn't work. At the end of the day it always comes down to bw being perfect the way it is. It's like arguing against religious people, it's really the same.
I don't care about avilo, it's no argument for anything. I read his blog where he made the case for quality of life improvements which wouldn't necessarily change the gameplay in a noticeable way and you know what happened? People simply attacked him there as well. Why? Because bw is perfect 
What exactly makes you any more qualified to talk about it ? Nothing at all. You followed the bw scene for years, so what? These topics are about changes with almost no impact on gameplay, that's exactly the change you should be excited for. These are the changes which make new players consider playing your game. But hey, arguing against every tiny change is more "reasonable" in your mind.
edit: but sure here is the basic argument:
1. The hotkeys are the way they are since 1998 and pressing p for probes and pylons is "harder" than pressing any key closer to the left side of the keyboard.
-> what about other languages which have different hotkeys? I actually used this same counter argument twice already, ofc you didn't respond.
Arguing it's the way since 1998 is also just appeal to tradition, it doesn't do anything for your argument.
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easy way to look at it:
the important thing is to maintain the game's high skill ceiling. allowing remapped hotkeys lowers the skill floor, making it slightly easier for noobs to pick up, but not the skill ceiling, since the same number of commands are still required, and they're all second nature for the pros already. this is perfectly ok and is arguably a good thing.
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On April 19 2017 03:51 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 00:57 Pr0wler wrote:On April 16 2017 13:24 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2017 12:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 16 2017 09:40 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2017 04:50 fickazzz wrote:Wouldn't suggest to start until they implement custom hotkeys actually >_< Really big bummer that they deleted them for 1.18 Or how about starting with the same hotkeys that everyone started with, and learn those, so that it doesn't matter to you if the hotkeys are implemented or not? Why is this not an option for so many people? I already answered this. Because a lot of people come from sc2 and want to keep playing that game. Two different hotkey setups are simply annoying to deal with. "Because a lot of people come from sc2 and want to keep playing that game" This is a different game though? Yes it is different game, with horrible hotkey placement. I can't see a reason to not include hotkey remapping - it's pretty much required feature by today's standards for games. If I want to play with just the Numpad (or with my 20 button mouse), I should be able to do it. It doesn't change the game mechanics in any way so I can't see the issue. It changes the dexterity requirement for the game when you can make all abilities for each race Q W and E. I feel that the dexterity requirement is part of what makes Brood War challenging, and is part of the experience that has been a standard for all players for nearly two decades. Changing it just so that new players with low tolerance for dexterity challenges might have a slightly easier time getting bopped before they quit and move on to a new game is not a priority in my eyes. Anyone who can't learn the mechanics required for a specific game and want to make the game conform to them and their prior experience with SC2 and not the other way around are unlikely to stand the test of time or contribute much of anything to the community, because in reality, what will a D- noob contribute? In my lengthy experience with Brood War and on TL, history says that D- noobs contribute three things: 1. Easy stepping stone on ladder. 2. D-rank oriented tournaments, events, etc., which is great and commendable. I think this is an important part of the foreign community. 3. Shit posts on TL/Battle.net/reddit, wherever. Because what can a person who doesn't know shit contribute to a real-time strategy game? Pretty much nothing positive outside of what I mentioned in #2, which is very insular for people of the same low skill level, like the NHFFA community (which is admittedly great and fun, but as I said, very insular). Similarly, a person who is unwilling to learn the game as it was made and played for nearly 20 years is unlikely to progress past the first few skill-checks that will present themselves in a game that has a veteran playerbase. I'm not entirely against implementing hotkey remapping, in the sense that I won't throw a hissy fit or quit just because Blizzard made the game easier for noobs. They are still noobs. And mechanics at the pro level are more or less secondary at this point, so I don't expect it to change the only competition that really matters. I do, however, think that it is a manifestation of the entitled, spoonfed, low-effort, low-risk high-reward, casual gaming mentality that should be kept contained to the UMS, Fastest, and 3v3 BGH sectors of the game, which should have no say about what should or should not be in the competitive scene, including hotkey remapping. An analogy: A bunch of migrants enter your country and start pushing for legislation that is more favorable towards migrants while ignoring the fact that the laws have been the same for a long time and have worked well for the established citizens. The migrants only care about having an easier time in the country they just came to, without having to conform to the status quo. They try to make it so that the official language does not actually need to be learned, that their cultural norms should be enforced upon all, simply because they arrived hastily and in vast numbers. Then, after a few years, when a different country seems to offer a better grazing ground for them, they will depart en masse anew and not give two shits about the country they had recently come into, forced change upon, and effectively bent to their will simply because they shouted the loudest and angriest at the way things had been for well over a decade because it didn't fit their imagination of that country.
You my friend should start a blog
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On April 19 2017 04:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Extremists like you always think they are the reasonable party, nothing new here. Funny really that you think your close minded pov is the reasonable one when countless other people think it's not and actually call out the hardcore bw community for it over and over again. I tried to argue with you guys, but it doesn't work. At the end of the day it always comes down to bw being perfect the way it is. It's like arguing against religious people, it's really the same. I don't care about avilo, it's no argument for anything. I read his blog where he made the case for quality of life improvements which wouldn't necessarily change the gameplay in a noticeable way and you know what happened? People simply attacked him there as well. Why? Because bw is perfect What exactly makes you any more qualified to talk about it ? Nothing at all. You followed the bw scene for years, so what? These topics are about changes with almost no impact on gameplay, that's exactly the change you should be excited for. These are the changes which make new players consider playing your game. But hey, arguing against every tiny change is more "reasonable" in your mind. edit: but sure here is the basic argument: 1. The hotkeys are the way they are since 1998 and pressing p for probes and pylons is "harder" than pressing any key closer to the left side of the keyboard. -> what about other languages which have different hotkeys? I actually used this same counter argument twice already, ofc you didn't respond. Arguing it's the way since 1998 is also just appeal to tradition, it doesn't do anything for your argument.
Ignoring everything that isn't actually an argument for the cause and answering your "basic argument:"
Other languages do indeed have different hotkeys but no other language has been found to be universally superior to another, and KESPA enforced the use of the English keyboard and language in-game. No language keyboard is comparable to Grid or other customizable hotkeys like mouse button attack/patrol mapping, for example. It's a false dichotomy that you are constructing here, yet a perfect example of the "slippery slope" mentality that would lead to the defiling of this game imo.
~NegativeZero: This is a reasonable argument and why, as I said before, I'm not entirely against custom hotkeys.
I just don't feel they should be a requirement and think it is wholly unhealthy to think of them as such.
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While i agree with remapped hotkeys, keep in mind that most people in forums have been asking for rebindable control groups as well, aka infinite control groups. Whether this changes the gameplay (and the skill ceiling especially for zerg) should be obvious
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On April 19 2017 04:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 04:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Extremists like you always think they are the reasonable party, nothing new here. Funny really that you think your close minded pov is the reasonable one when countless other people think it's not and actually call out the hardcore bw community for it over and over again. I tried to argue with you guys, but it doesn't work. At the end of the day it always comes down to bw being perfect the way it is. It's like arguing against religious people, it's really the same. I don't care about avilo, it's no argument for anything. I read his blog where he made the case for quality of life improvements which wouldn't necessarily change the gameplay in a noticeable way and you know what happened? People simply attacked him there as well. Why? Because bw is perfect What exactly makes you any more qualified to talk about it ? Nothing at all. You followed the bw scene for years, so what? These topics are about changes with almost no impact on gameplay, that's exactly the change you should be excited for. These are the changes which make new players consider playing your game. But hey, arguing against every tiny change is more "reasonable" in your mind. edit: but sure here is the basic argument: 1. The hotkeys are the way they are since 1998 and pressing p for probes and pylons is "harder" than pressing any key closer to the left side of the keyboard. -> what about other languages which have different hotkeys? I actually used this same counter argument twice already, ofc you didn't respond. Arguing it's the way since 1998 is also just appeal to tradition, it doesn't do anything for your argument. Ignoring everything that isn't actually an argument for the cause and answering your "basic argument:" Other languages do indeed have different hotkeys but no other language has been found to be universally superior to another, and KESPA enforced the use of the English keyboard and language in-game. No language keyboard is comparable to Grid or other customizable hotkeys like mouse button attack/patrol mapping, for example. It's a false dichotomy that you are constructing here, yet a perfect example of the "slippery slope" mentality that would lead to the defiling of this game imo. ~ NegativeZero: This is a reasonable argument and why, as I said before, I'm not entirely against custom hotkeys. I just don't feel they should be a requirement and think it is wholly unhealthy to think of them as such.
Same. I'm not entirely against hotkey remapping. If Blizzard implements it, so what. Most people who remap are usually extreme noobs. That's a fact. What bothers me the most are people who come here in this forum and speak as if there opinion about changes are 'self-evident' and 'BW elitist' are just too much into 'nostalgia' of 'bad' mechanical barriers ('bad' here is of course self-evident and objective). Agree with Jealous about it all. I think he writes all issues veterans have about this new influx of people here, as well as their opinion.
The_Red_Viper calling people 'extremist' doesn't help your cause at all. This is another extremely annoying thing some people do here: labelling those people who have been around for many many years, who supported BW and want nothing changed as elitist/extremist.
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On April 19 2017 04:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 04:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Extremists like you always think they are the reasonable party, nothing new here. Funny really that you think your close minded pov is the reasonable one when countless other people think it's not and actually call out the hardcore bw community for it over and over again. I tried to argue with you guys, but it doesn't work. At the end of the day it always comes down to bw being perfect the way it is. It's like arguing against religious people, it's really the same. I don't care about avilo, it's no argument for anything. I read his blog where he made the case for quality of life improvements which wouldn't necessarily change the gameplay in a noticeable way and you know what happened? People simply attacked him there as well. Why? Because bw is perfect What exactly makes you any more qualified to talk about it ? Nothing at all. You followed the bw scene for years, so what? These topics are about changes with almost no impact on gameplay, that's exactly the change you should be excited for. These are the changes which make new players consider playing your game. But hey, arguing against every tiny change is more "reasonable" in your mind. edit: but sure here is the basic argument: 1. The hotkeys are the way they are since 1998 and pressing p for probes and pylons is "harder" than pressing any key closer to the left side of the keyboard. -> what about other languages which have different hotkeys? I actually used this same counter argument twice already, ofc you didn't respond. Arguing it's the way since 1998 is also just appeal to tradition, it doesn't do anything for your argument. Ignoring everything that isn't actually an argument for the cause and answering your "basic argument:" Other languages do indeed have different hotkeys but no other language has been found to be universally superior to another, and KESPA enforced the use of the English keyboard and language in-game. No language keyboard is comparable to Grid or other customizable hotkeys like mouse button attack/patrol mapping, for example. It's a false dichotomy that you are constructing here, yet a perfect example of the "slippery slope" mentality that would lead to the defiling of this game imo. ~ NegativeZero: This is a reasonable argument and why, as I said before, I'm not entirely against custom hotkeys. I just don't feel they should be a requirement and think it is wholly unhealthy to think of them as such.
You didn't prove that grid would be "universally superior". You even argued somewhere else that it wouldn't affect high lvl gameplay at all. So what is it? It would make it easier for new players to learn hotkeys though. Would it make them play better than with old hotkeys? No probably not either.
You state you aren't opposed to the idea it but why do you take every opportunity to make posts which try to give arguments against it? Because you don't think new players would actually "contribute anything to the community". You don't even want new players who actually prefer some qol changes.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/520483-avilos-scremastered-wishlist-heuheu
You mentioned avilo, here is his blog. Lot of changes which wouldn't really change the gameplay but make it easier for new players. What is your counter argument? "Bbbut we had to learn it that way, it is like that since 1998!" Yeah great appeal to tradition.
I am done with this now, once and for all. It's a giant waste of time to even attempt this discussion, any discussion about possible changes. "In my lengthy experience with Brood War elitists on TL, history says that this discussion will never go anywhere"
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Lol, such a big debate about what key you need to press to build probes. Somehow you even managed to include the migrant crysis into the debate... Like, who fucking cares, people will find 3rd party tool that does the same and that's it (as they do every time when the devs are missing esential features in their games). Now BW is free so it's not a big deal.
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1.18 is out btw, i heard that 1.16 still works aswell?
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On April 19 2017 04:56 ortseam wrote:
While i agree with remapped hotkeys, keep in mind that most people in forums have been asking for rebindable control groups as well, aka infinite control groups. Whether this changes the gameplay (and the skill ceiling especially for zerg) should be obvious
I don't think you can get infinite control groups with "rebindable" control groups. I mean it has been years since I touched SC2 but you could rebind 1-0 to whatever you want, but not make your T or G key into control groups and still have 1-0 be control groups as well. It would just make your G key be the 0 control group.
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On April 19 2017 06:58 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol, such a big debate about what key you need to press to build probes. Somehow you even managed to include the migrant crysis into the debate... Like, who fucking cares, people will find 3rd party tool that does the same and that's it (as they do every time when the devs are missing esential features in their games). Now BW is free so it's not a big deal.
People have been able to do this for years in Brood War, but it is disallowed in tournament play. The bigger issue isn't the fact that Probes would no longer be P, it's that you could make your 3rd mouse button be patrol, allowing for incredibly easy Vulture micro, for example. If custom hotkeys are allowed, then there should be concrete restrictions on what is flexible and what is not. I understand the desire to not have [S]elect Larva, [S]courge be in the game, I really do. Or not dedicating any time or effort into learning all the upgrade hotkeys. Or not dedicating any time or effort to working with the tools given to you intelligently, for example binding Nexus to 098 to make Probe production easier. Or not bothering to learn and implement different hotkey set-ups for different races. I get that people want it ezpz because muh QoL. I just think that it shouldn't be allowed in competitive play (as it isn't now), and that if people don't have it in them to grow accustomed to any of the above things, they won't be good players with or without the hotkeys.
Let me rephrase, what I find frustrating is that people feel entitled to having games delivered to them on a silver platter, and this is just one example of this. People have been asking for MBS, Auto-mine, etc. If these things are what you are looking for in a game, then maybe BW is not the game for you. If you can't cope with a little tactile difficulty, I think that you lack the mettle to handle competitive BW. The fact that this is a barrier of entry for people is baffling to me. It's like signing up for a bowling tournament and demanding that they put the walls up. It's like signing up for baseball and demanding that they serve underhand like they did in kindergarten. It's like demanding a calculator for an arithmetic exam. Some things in life are tough; deal with it. If difficult games are not your cup of tea, go play Farmville or other easy-to-digest games with Achievements, input cues, cut-scene action, etc. Or just keep playing SC2. Don't come into Brood War demanding changes when it is clear that changes are unnecessary.
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On the new client, join chat channel Teamliquid
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On April 19 2017 08:06 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 06:58 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol, such a big debate about what key you need to press to build probes. Somehow you even managed to include the migrant crysis into the debate... Like, who fucking cares, people will find 3rd party tool that does the same and that's it (as they do every time when the devs are missing esential features in their games). Now BW is free so it's not a big deal. People have been able to do this for years in Brood War, but it is disallowed in tournament play. The bigger issue isn't the fact that Probes would no longer be P, it's that you could make your 3rd mouse button be patrol, allowing for incredibly easy Vulture micro, for example. If custom hotkeys are allowed, then there should be concrete restrictions on what is flexible and what is not. I understand the desire to not have [S]elect Larva, [S]courge be in the game, I really do. Or not dedicating any time or effort into learning all the upgrade hotkeys. Or not dedicating any time or effort to working with the tools given to you intelligently, for example binding Nexus to 098 to make Probe production easier. Or not bothering to learn and implement different hotkey set-ups for different races. I get that people want it ezpz because muh QoL. I just think that it shouldn't be allowed in competitive play (as it isn't now), and that if people don't have it in them to grow accustomed to any of the above things, they won't be good players with or without the hotkeys. Let me rephrase, what I find frustrating is that people feel entitled to having games delivered to them on a silver platter, and this is just one example of this. People have been asking for MBS, Auto-mine, etc. If these things are what you are looking for in a game, then maybe BW is not the game for you. If you can't cope with a little tactile difficulty, I think that you lack the mettle to handle competitive BW. The fact that this is a barrier of entry for people is baffling to me. It's like signing up for a bowling tournament and demanding that they put the walls up. It's like signing up for baseball and demanding that they serve underhand like they did in kindergarten. It's like demanding a calculator for an arithmetic exam. Some things in life are tough; deal with it. If difficult games are not your cup of tea, go play Farmville or other easy-to-digest games with Achievements, input cues, cut-scene action, etc. Or just keep playing SC2. Don't come into Brood War demanding changes when it is clear that changes are unnecessary.
There are so many false equivalencies in this, I just want to gag.
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On April 14 2017 01:07 eviltomahawk wrote:
I wonder if they'll add BW 1.18 to the Blizzard launcher. The later PTR versions were installed through an installer that looked straight from the B.net launcher. It would be nice for visibility if it was there instead of stuck in a damp corner of your B.net account support page.
WC3's last patch has something similar. Clasico on the classic forums says that was mostly because the backend they used to patch those games is super super ancient, it was designed for Windows 95 or something silly. The modern tools makes it much easier to patch. That on top of the fact if B.net 2.0 isnt on Classic, its kinda pointless.
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I'm playing on a Mac (OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan) and cannot figure out how to "stretch" the screen in fullscreen so that there are no black side borders. Is it even possible to adjust?
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Put it as an option then frown on it if that's the only mode you're good at, then top level tourneys should disallow remapping of keys. I think that solves a lot
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On April 12 2017 23:58 SCC-Faust wrote:
Yes, admittedly they have made some decent progress.
I'm not trying to be negative but it is extremely jarring they thought it was okay to announce the release of 1.18 in its original state. It really makes you question if they have any idea what they are doing or if they tested it at all when you couldn't even get games to start 50% of the time. Not to mention they totally stripped a ton of features of the original battle.net and made the design more unintuitive. Despite that I'm ecstatic that they have listened to our feedback though and have been working hard on making things right. But what they did compares to showing up as a referee to a professional Volleyball game and giving them a deflated ball with holes poked in it and giving the players a nod and wink.
Hi Faust!
They can test at the office, but honestly a lot of this stuff is hard to find until you open up a test realm and get lots of people testing it. This is what the test realm is for. Having a bunch of people on the same network test it isn't going to cover enough situations.
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EPT
