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On March 29 2017 22:43 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2017 20:12 TT1 wrote:On March 29 2017 20:06 jtkirk wrote:On March 29 2017 19:55 Dante08 wrote:
Pretty sure 90% of protoss players will change pylon and probe to E or something. Makes no sense to stick with P. I will stick with probe at P, because I bind my nexuses to 8/9/0 and macro with 0p9p8p. why are you torturing yourself it's a lot easier to have nexus on 890 and have 1-6 or 7 available for army I literally dont know how T or Z play with only 1-4 available for controlling army.
I was going to mention this on my first post in this thread as an example on how changing hotkeys doesn't help you as much as people think. I was a boxer fanatic and only played T for years but due to meta changes I decided to switch to P but didn't want to produce probes by hitting 'P' and also didn't want to adapt by using nexus on 098. But after I got 'good' playing toss I resented that decision. It's much better for mid/late game to have nexus on 098.
So yeh, I took a shortcut to learn playing toss but taking the easier route still gives me problems on some games at certain points of such games.
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I'm thinking on, what about the pro level? should they allow the remappnig of hotkeys? or will the old gods have so much muscle memory engrained that they wont change at all? *thinks*
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On March 30 2017 09:49 Prelate wrote:
Does anyone have the list of hotkeys for a grid layout? Doing it manually without command cards is a giant pain.
Unfortunately it looks like manual is the only way to go. I was about to start in on it but then looked at how long the list was. Yeah, that's gonna be a project...
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On March 30 2017 12:22 halomonian wrote:
I'm thinking on, what about the pro level? should they allow the remappnig of hotkeys? or will the old gods have so much muscle memory engrained that they wont change at all? *thinks*
They should totally allow it. It doesn't give an advantage or anything. I don't see current pro's switching hotkeys, at least most of them.
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I sincerely hope that either Customizable Hotkeys don't make it into the final product, or that the main competitive servers ban their use via Anti-hack.
So much of the mechanical demands would be diminished if no one ever really needed to stray further right on the keyboard than the G key (with the possible exeption of Ctrl-groups 6-0) to perform any and all commands (not counting mouse-actions).
What would the rationale really be for instituting this change anyway? Make it easier? Why not just add all the simplifying features of SC2 then in that case?
Personally, I would advocate going the 1st route outlined in my first paragraph - to exclude personalized hotkeys altogether from the final product. The latter approach, while sounding reasonable, could have the downside of disqualifying a large segment of rather new players from becoming competitive, from entering into tournaments where their hotkey-setups would be disallowed. It could also have the effect of fracturing the scene, at least temporarily, into those who stick with the old version of BW (pre 1.18 perhaps) and those who have just recently jumped onto the train post-SC:R's release.
So unless there is a way to rigidly enforce the current U.S SC:BW hotkey regime as the norm for all matches where points change hands in official ladder-play, while making room for personalized hotkeys in non-competetive settings, then I suggest simply letting the status-quo, as detestable a term as that may be nowadays, to remain so.
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TLADT24920 Posts
The ability to customize your hotkeys is already in the PTR and I'm sure is here to stay so we might as well get used to it ^^
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If the pros don't have a problem with customizable hotkeys I honestly don't see why anyone else should.
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On March 30 2017 09:49 Prelate wrote:
Does anyone have the list of hotkeys for a grid layout? Doing it manually without command cards is a giant pain.
Yes I do, I did it manually earlier today. This is the list in the order it appears in the hotkey rebind menu.
Warning, this is LONG. Also note some things don't make any sense (like Develop Feedback, Dark Archons start with feedback) so I put a ? next to them but kept them in anyway so I would know.
+ Show Spoiler +Research Stim - W
Research Lockdown - Q
Research EMP - Q
Research Spider Mines - W
Research Siege - E
Research Defensive Matrix - ?
Research Irradiate - W
Research Yamato Gun - Q
Research Cloaking (Wraith) - Q
Research Cloaking (Ghost) - W
Stim - Z
Lockdown - X
Spider Mine - Z
Scan - Q
Siege Mode - Z
Tank Mode - Z
Defensive Matrix - Z
EMP - X
Irradiate - C
Yamato Gun - Z
Cloak - Z
Decloak - Z
Evolve Burrow - E
Evolve Infestation (Queen) - ?
Evolve Spawn Broodling - Q
Evolve Dark Swarm - ?
Evolve Parasite - ?
Evolve Plague - Q
Evolve Ensnare - W
Evolve Consume (Defiler) - W
Burrow - C
Unburrow - C
Infest Terran C.C. - D
Spawn Broodlings - X
Dark Swarm - Z
Parasite - Z
Plague - X
Consume(C)(Defiler) - D
Consume? (U)
Ensnare - C
Develop Psi Storm - Q
Develop Hallucination - W
Develop Recall - Q
Develop Stasis - W
Develop Archon Warp(?)
Psi Storm - Z
Hallucination - X
Recall - Z
Stasis - X
Archon Warp - C
Upgrade Infantry Armor - W
Upgrade Vehicle Plating - A
Upgrade Ship Plating - S
Evolve Carapace - E
Evolve Flyer Carapace - W
Upgrade Ground Armor - W
Upgrade Air Armor - W
Upgrade Infantry Weapons - Q
Upgrade Vehicle Weapons - Q
Upgrade Ship Weapons - W
Upgrade Melee Attacks - Q
Upgrade Missile Attacks - W
Upgrade Flyer Attacks - Q
Upgrade Ground Weapons - Q
Upgrade Air Weapons - Q
Upgrade Plasma Shields - E
Research U-238 Shells (Marine attack range) - Q
Research Ion Thrusters (Vulture Speed) - Q
Research Burst Lasers (Wraith Weapon) - ?
Research Titan Reactor (+50 Science Vessel energy) - E
Research Ocular Implants (Ghost sight range) - A
Research Moebius Reactor (+50 Ghost energy) - S
Research Apollo Reactor (+50 Wraith energy) - W
Research Colossus Reactor (+50 Battlecruiser energy) - W
Evolve Ventral Sacs (Transporting for Overlord) - A
Evolve Antenaee (Overlord sight range) - S
Evolve Pneumatized Carapace (Overlord speed) - D
Evolve Metabolic Boost (Zergling speed) - Q
Evolve Adrenal Glands (Cracklings) - W
Evolve Muscular Augments (Hydra speed) - Q
Evolve Grooved Spines (Hydra range) - W
Evolve Gamete Meiosis (+50 Queen energy) - E
Evolve Metasynaptic Node (+50 Defiler energy) - E
Develop Singularity Charge (Goon range) - E
Develop Leg Enhancements (Zealot Speed) - Q
Upgrade Scarab Damage (Upgrade Scarab Damage) - Q
Increase Reaver Capacity (+5 Max Scarabs) - W
Develop Gravitic Drive (Shuttle Speed) - E
Develop Sensor Array (Obs sight range) - W
Develop Gravitic Booster (Obs speed) - Q
Develop Khaydarin Amulet (+50 Templar energy) - E
Develop Apial Sensors (Scout(lol) sight range) - Q
Develop Gravitic Thrusters (Scout(rofl) speed) - W
Increase Carrier Capacity (+4 Interceptors) - E
Develop Khaydarin Core (+50 Arbiter energy) - E
Morph to Zerglings - W
Morph to Hydralisk - A
Morph to Ultralisk - X
Morph to Drone - Q
Morph to Overlord - E
Morph to Mutalisk - S
Guardian Aspect - Z
Morph to Queen - Z
Morph to Defiler - C
Morph to Scourge - D
Train Infested Terran - Q
Train Marine - Q
Train Ghost - E
Train Firebat - W
Build Vulture - Q
Build Goliath - E
Build Siege Tank - W
Build SCV - Q
Build Wraith - Q
Build Science Vessel - E
Build Dropship - W
Build Battlecruiser - A
Arm Nuclear Silo - Q
Build Observer - E
Build Probe - Q
Warp in Zealot - Q
Warp in Dragoon - W
Warp in High Templar - E
Build Shuttle - Q
Make a Mistake (Warp in Scout) - Q
Warp in Arbiter - E
Warp in Carrier - W
Build Interceptor - Z
Build Reaver - W
Build Scarab - Z
Hire Merc Biker?
Hire Merc Gunship?
Hire Raider?
Mutate into Hatchery - Q
Mutate into Creep Colony - W
Mutate into Extractor - E
Mutate into Spawning Pool - A
Mutate into Evolution Chamber - S
Mutate into Hydralisk Den - Z
Mutate into Nydus Canal - E
Mutate into Spire - Q
Mutate into Queen's Nest - W
Mutate into Ultralisk Cavern - A
Mutate into Defiler Mound - S
Mutate into Liar - Z
Mutate into Hive - Z
Mutate into Greater Spire - Z
Mutate into Spore Colony - Z
Mutate into Sunken Colony - X
Place Nydus Canal Exit - Q
Warp in Nexus - Q
Warp in Pylon - W
Warp in Assimilator - E
Warp in Gateway - A
Warp in Forge - S
Warp in Photon Cannon - D
Warp in Cybernetics Core - Z
Warp in Shield Battery - X
Warp in Robotics Facility - Q
Warp in Observatory - Z
Warp in Citadel of Adun - E
Warp in Templar Archives - D
Warp in Stargate - W
Warp in Fleet Beacon - S
Warp in Arbiter Tribunal - X
Warp in Robotics Support Bay - A
Build Command Center - Q
Build Supply Depot - W
Build Refinery - E
Build Barracks - A
Build Engineering Bay - S
Build Missile Turret - D
Build Academy - Z
Build Bunker - X
Build Factory - Q
Build Starport - W
Build Science Facility - E
Build Armory - A
Build Comsat Station - Z
Build Nuclear Silo - X
Build Control Tower - Z
Build Covert Ops - Z
Build Physics Lab - X
Build Machine Shop - Z
Move - Q
Stop - W
Attack - E
Patrol - A
Hold Position - S
Way Points?
Land - C
Liftoff - C
Set Rally Point - D
Recharge Shields - Q
Select Larva - Q
Gather - S
Return Cargo - D
Repair - A
Build Structure - Z
Build Advanced Structure - X
Basic Mutation - Z
Advanced Mutation - X
Advanced Morph
Load - X
Unload All - C
Nuclear Strike - C
Place COP - ?
Research Restoration (Medic) - A
Research Optical Flare (Medic) - S
Heal - Z
Restoration - X
Optical Flare - C
Evolve Lurker Aspect - A
Develop Disruption Web - A
Develop Mind Control - A
Develop Feedback - ?
Develop Maelstrom - S
Dark Archon Meld - C
Disruption Web - Z
Mind Control - X
Feedback - Z
Maelstrom - C
Reasearch Caduceus Reactor (+50 Medic energy) - D
Research Charon Boosters (Goliath Range) - A
Evolve Anabolic Synthesis (Ultralisk Speed) - Q
Evolve Chitinous Plating (Ultralisk Armor) - W
Develop Argus Jewel (+50 Corsair energy) - S
Develop Argus Talisman (+50 Dark Archon energy) - D
Devourer Aspect - X
Morph to Lurker - Z
Train Medic - A
Build Valkyrie - S
Warp in Corsair - A
Warp in Dark Templar - A
Speed Up
Play
Pause
Slow Down
I may change this to spreadsheet format in the future, it'll be easier that way if they change the order of the menu.
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On March 30 2017 13:29 Tadah wrote:
I sincerely hope that either Customizable Hotkeys don't make it into the final product, or that the main competitive servers ban their use via Anti-hack.
So much of the mechanical demands would be diminished if no one ever really needed to stray further right on the keyboard than the G key (with the possible exeption of Ctrl-groups 6-0) to perform any and all commands (not counting mouse-actions).
What would the rationale really be for instituting this change anyway? Make it easier? Why not just add all the simplifying features of SC2 then in that case?
Personally, I would advocate going the 1st route outlined in my first paragraph - to exclude personalized hotkeys altogether from the final product. The latter approach, while sounding reasonable, could have the downside of disqualifying a large segment of rather new players from becoming competitive, from entering into tournaments where their hotkey-setups would be disallowed. It could also have the effect of fracturing the scene, at least temporarily, into those who stick with the old version of BW (pre 1.18 perhaps) and those who have just recently jumped onto the train post-SC:R's release.
So unless there is a way to rigidly enforce the current U.S SC:BW hotkey regime as the norm for all matches where points change hands in official ladder-play, while making room for personalized hotkeys in non-competetive settings, then I suggest simply letting the status-quo, as detestable a term as that may be nowadays, to remain so.
It's pretty sad that u think the game depend on some centimeters on a keyboard, the game is more deep than that.
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On March 30 2017 14:23 Crozo64 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 13:29 Tadah wrote:
I sincerely hope that either Customizable Hotkeys don't make it into the final product, or that the main competitive servers ban their use via Anti-hack.
So much of the mechanical demands would be diminished if no one ever really needed to stray further right on the keyboard than the G key (with the possible exeption of Ctrl-groups 6-0) to perform any and all commands (not counting mouse-actions).
What would the rationale really be for instituting this change anyway? Make it easier? Why not just add all the simplifying features of SC2 then in that case?
Personally, I would advocate going the 1st route outlined in my first paragraph - to exclude personalized hotkeys altogether from the final product. The latter approach, while sounding reasonable, could have the downside of disqualifying a large segment of rather new players from becoming competitive, from entering into tournaments where their hotkey-setups would be disallowed. It could also have the effect of fracturing the scene, at least temporarily, into those who stick with the old version of BW (pre 1.18 perhaps) and those who have just recently jumped onto the train post-SC:R's release.
So unless there is a way to rigidly enforce the current U.S SC:BW hotkey regime as the norm for all matches where points change hands in official ladder-play, while making room for personalized hotkeys in non-competetive settings, then I suggest simply letting the status-quo, as detestable a term as that may be nowadays, to remain so. It's pretty sad that u think the game depend on some centimeters on a keyboard, the game is more deep than that.
Well, the game is played through inputs on a few centimeters of keyboard after all Please, don't oversimplify things. While a few centimeters may be insignificant in some contexts, I don't think it is in this one, hence my quite long post on the subject. No need to dismiss it so out of hand.
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I think it's you who over complexify things about this. What is ur main concern ? Beginners will beat veterans players just because of this ? Seriously stop this bullshit ...
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You're so busy thinking about how hard you can make the game that you haven't thought about how hard you should make the game
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On March 30 2017 14:41 Crozo64 wrote:
I think it's you who over complexify things about this. What is ur main concern ? Beginners will beat veterans players just because of this ? Seriously stop this bullshit ...
Overcomplexify how? I have made a very simply point about a simple observation. My issue with the proposed change is that the skill-ceiling will drop, the awe-factor will be diminished from seeing someone micro/macro in action, the enjoyment from watching streams of players with 300+ apm will be similarly diminished as its becomes difficult to relate the actions on screen to those in the real world (what keys are being pressed to execute certain commands and perform certain actions). Also, I argue that ones personal satisfaction from becoming fluent in playing the game in the face of this high- and longstanding mechanical challenge will be lessened.
All of these are just my opinions of course, needles to say.
I am not for making things arbitrarily hard, but more to view all the limitations on the way in which the game is physically played as binding precedents. If not viewed this way then you might as well institute an SC2-like UI as there is no underlying objective principle to invoke as a reason for implementing this change other than - "It's easier/more comfortable". And that feels slippery-slopery to boot.
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Hotkeys in Brood War are already inconsistent across languages. For example, patrol in Spanish is "R" instead of "P." Probe in Spanish is "S" instead of "P." Those are already differences that can be seen as advantages in that localization over the English one.
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On March 30 2017 15:01 Tadah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 14:41 Crozo64 wrote:
I think it's you who over complexify things about this. What is ur main concern ? Beginners will beat veterans players just because of this ? Seriously stop this bullshit ... Overcomplexify how? I have made a very simply point about a simple observation. My issue with the proposed change is that the skill-ceiling will drop, the awe-factor will be diminished from seeing someone micro/macro in action, the enjoyment from watching streams of players with 300+ apm will be similarly diminished as its becomes difficult to relate the actions on screen to those in the real world (what keys are being pressed to execute certain commands and perform certain actions). Also, I argue that ones personal satisfaction from becoming fluent in playing the game in the face of this high- and longstanding mechanical challenge will be lessened. All of these are just my opinions of course, needles to say. I am not for making things arbitrarily hard, but more to view all the limitations on the way in which the game is physically played as binding precedents. If not viewed this way then you might as well institute an SC2-like UI as there is no underlying objective principle to invoke as a reason for implementing this change other than - "It's easier/more comfortable". And that feels slippery-slopery to boot.
The thing is, it was already possible to play with differents hotkeys depend on ur game language, for example my game is in french and it make some hotkeys easier than in the english version.
( sorry didn't see the post above me )
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On March 30 2017 15:04 eviltomahawk wrote:
Hotkeys in Brood War are already inconsistent across languages. For example, patrol in Spanish is "R" instead of "P." Probe in Spanish is "S" instead of "P." Those are already differences that can be seen as advantages in that localization over the English one.
In my view, any one of those schemes should be eligible for competitive use. I would also be satisfied with having all but one of them eliminated through a patch, preferably all but the one used by the Koreans.
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Hotkeys are not what make u a good player and that's not what impress me in the game.
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On March 30 2017 15:09 Tadah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 15:04 eviltomahawk wrote:
Hotkeys in Brood War are already inconsistent across languages. For example, patrol in Spanish is "R" instead of "P." Probe in Spanish is "S" instead of "P." Those are already differences that can be seen as advantages in that localization over the English one. In my view, any one of those schemes should be eligible for competitive use. I would also be satisfied with having all but one of them eliminated through a patch, preferably all but the one used by the Koreans.
The latter would never happen. People would raise more hell than you currently are if Blizzard came in and took away their features instead of adding any.
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On March 30 2017 15:08 Crozo64 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 15:01 Tadah wrote:On March 30 2017 14:41 Crozo64 wrote:
I think it's you who over complexify things about this. What is ur main concern ? Beginners will beat veterans players just because of this ? Seriously stop this bullshit ... Overcomplexify how? I have made a very simply point about a simple observation. My issue with the proposed change is that the skill-ceiling will drop, the awe-factor will be diminished from seeing someone micro/macro in action, the enjoyment from watching streams of players with 300+ apm will be similarly diminished as its becomes difficult to relate the actions on screen to those in the real world (what keys are being pressed to execute certain commands and perform certain actions). Also, I argue that ones personal satisfaction from becoming fluent in playing the game in the face of this high- and longstanding mechanical challenge will be lessened. All of these are just my opinions of course, needless to say. I am not for making things arbitrarily hard, but more to view all the limitations on the way in which the game is physically played as binding precedents. If not viewed this way then you might as well institute an SC2-like UI as there is no underlying objective principle to invoke as a reason for implementing this change other than - "It's easier/more comfortable". And that feels slippery-slopery to boot. The thing is, it was already possible to play with differents keybind depend on ur game language, for example my game is in french and it make some hotkeys easier than in the english version.
I get it, but I see no inconsistency. My argument is not that customizable keybinds give certain players advantages over others. The hotkey setups in various regions are sufficently hard so as to not have lead to a convergence towards a single given setup, and my conclusion is therefore that they are both similar enough to one-another in terms of the mechanical difficulty they impose upon players and that each one is also alot more mechancally demanding on players than any half-decent customised setup would be. In short, I have no issue with the state of things as is on this front.
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On March 30 2017 13:29 Tadah wrote:
What would the rationale really be for instituting this change anyway?
I believe it was because you already could through various ways; one of which being razer keyboards (Razer Synapse lets you). Another way is with using some keyboards that allow you to use assign macros to buttons without the use of software, like mine (Ducky Shine 5). In my case I'm not sure that an antihack would be able to detect this since there is no software involved. The point is that if someone wanted to rebind their keys, they can.
On March 30 2017 13:29 Tadah wrote:
Why not just add all the simplifying features of SC2 then in that case?
Because allowing someone to build mutalisks with whatever key they want is vastly different from allowing them to do that in addition to letting them stack 50+ mutalisks on top of each other.
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EPT
