UPDATE 21st April 2017 Version 1.0 Crown And Sceptre -No changes
This is just a label update from 0.95 to version 1.0.
And to celebrate the official launch of the finished map; Showmatch 3 DarkNetHunter vs fearthequeen casted by Herbmon and puppykiller
Thankyou very much guys!
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Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat
Overview
Above is actually slightly outdated 0.94 but looks very similar.
Showmatch 1 Cryoc vs LRM)INF3cted casted by FlashFTW Note this was played on an outdated version of the map. (mineral formation in top right main, cant build a townhall behind the mineral line at 12 o clock now, and there is more water cliff edit work behind the nats for example).
Showmatch 2 Cryoc vs LRM)INF3cted Round 2 casted by Sayle
Showmatch 3 DarkNetHunter vs fearthequeen casted by Herbmon and puppykiller
this map seems positionally heavily imbalanced, while it also looks like a remodeled Fighting Spirit when looking at certain positions.
Like playing 5 vs 7, 5 can take a gas expansion as his 3rd+4th, while 7 has to either expand towards his opponent for his 3rd, take an open mineral only, or take a way further away and harder to defend 3rd if he wants gas. And a perfect map split would leave the 7 guy with 1 more expansion, as 12 could be way easier contested in that scenario. There is a reason SCMDraft2 gives you the option to mirror terrain, so that this kind of stuff is taken care of
On December 02 2016 05:45 noname_ wrote: How to make a screen of map like this? I`d like to show my map.
Use SCMDraft 2.0, open your map with it and click "Save image" under "File" menu. After that I suggest using basic editor (MSPaint) and resize map image because output gonna be really big.
Interesting. Cool map Cardinal! I like this version quite a bit more than the ones I saw before! Very cool name. I see the crown now, but I would've never guessed the Sceptre.
-Water cliff snip at TL nat. -3 o clock ramp tile changed back. -Grass BR main SL. -Water at 3 o clock. -Grass centre mirrored. -Water cliff at bottom left nat entrance. -Tank hole at 6 o clock (mirrored tile). -Grass tile and dirt tile at top right nat entrance. -Improved ramps (and ramp palette). -Asphalt at 3 o clock water cliff -Retesting mining at TR main and its fast. (worker wobble for zerg but its fast). -Testing trying to ramp stack bug at TR main but couldn’t. -Cliff at TL nat entrance. -Changed author name to Jukado -Improved water clutter at 6 and 12 o clock (switched out vision tiles). -Mud behind 12 o clock.
FS is a good map. Its a good 10 year old map. CAS is a very good map. Its a brand new very good map. CAS grinds FS into a pulp and spits it out. **(BLASPHEMY. Burn the sinner!)**
FS is not a mythical map of perfection. Lets have a look at some randomly selected things.
FS BR nat red highlight (mistakes or things that could be improved) and CAS comparison: + Show Spoiler +
(remember you can easily wall with 2 pylons such that you leave a 1 tile gap for goons to access the base for drop defense etc if you wish). All 3rds wall in exactly the same way; 2 pylons diagonally for a hasty solution, add a 3rd pylon to seal tight against vults).
If only he had known about the mirror tool amirite LML?
I should point out the annoying repeating patterns problem is much more a badlands tileset thing than jungle. For example Destination is littered with it, the whole map, but here are some spots: Desti bottom main red highlight and CAS comparison + Show Spoiler +
OK so I think Ive made my point that much more love and care has gone into CAS than other maps.
Next I want to talk about how most maps are nowhere near positionally balanced. New Sniper Ridge + Show Spoiler +
See how you can expand to the 3rd but if you want to expand in the other direction it is much much further to the extent that its completely unviable. Maybe you should tell [Ragnarok]Valkyrie about the mirror tool LML.
This map is very bad in PvT when horizontal spawns. Very hard for P to expand ‘away’ from the terran. Even if he manages to (by delaying his 3rd and massing), Terran just expands along the edge taking 4 bases and walks into the Protoss territory easily. Its awful, and is the main reason I cant love Circuit Breaker as much as I want to (even if the decoration is plain to say the least). Mirror tool EarthAttack?
How many times does a terran ever get a 4th base? How many times does a Protoss expand ‘away’ from the terran. How much does it actually matter? We really should tell Rose about the mirror tool btw. Deco is bland again, compare it to (4)Eddy and its just night and day.
OMG if I expand in one direction I get a gas but if I expand in the other direction I have to take 2 mineral only bases before I can even get my 3rd gas! Top tip from LML; use the mirror tool [Ragnarok]Valkyrie. While you're at it let him know about the isometric tool as well so he can make some terrain that isnt just straight lines.
Next I want to talk about CAS. You say (LML) that if you spawn at BR and want to expand away then you either have to take a mineral only or go much further. Well yes it is a bit further but it is viable. Its also viable to simply not expand away and just take the regular close 3rd. And you say that if you spawn at BL then you can get a 4th gas easily, but the player at BR gets an easier mineral only in a split map scenario. Well yes that is true. So tell me if Protoss spawns at bottom left and Terran spawns at bottom right, who has the advantage? Its almost like one player has arbiters (clearly imbalanced) while the other player has siege tanks (totally OP). OK so tell me who wins?
Ask yourself why do you even play on 4 player maps at all? There are 3 reasons people play on 4 player maps. -You can 2v2 on them. -Scouting is uncertain -Variety
Well on most 4 player maps there are 3 matchups. On rotational maps you have cross spawn, spawn behind, and spawn infront. On axial maps you have cross spawn, horizontal, and vertical.
On CAS there are 12 matchups! This provides variety. This is something that can help a map to stand the test of time as you wont get bored of it. This wasn’t a mistake of not using the mirror tool (give me strength). This was very carefully designed and I poured all my experience into it.
No matter where you spawn, you can go up to 3 bases fairly (inline with all existing maps). To take a 4th base you have to move out onto the map. The middle of the map is wider than it is on FS.
May I remind you that Lost Temple uses this kind of symmetry and is deeply loved and considered a classic. I like to think that CAS is slightly more balanced (in all ways) than LT.
To answer RoomOfMush from the development thread about the 12 o clock base, the drop zone and the air gap: Theres a few reasons. The base is a min only and is open, so to make it more attractive/viable it is positioned closer by ground so that it is defensible. In a top left vs top right scenario in particular, drop play is already more attractive. So by having a drop zone behind the minline, and an air gap, helps to make good gameplay. What do I mean by that; fun and exciting, satisfying and fair. So for example, in PvT (top left vs top right), Protoss might want to use reaver on 2 base. And terran might do a 2 base 4 factory attack. Terran might take the min only at 12 o clock as his 3rd. If things weren’t going well for the Protoss, he might be slowly getting strangled which is very unsatisfactory gameplay. But with this drop zone and air gap, P still has the chance to make a comeback using a reaver/T cant lock out the threat by making a turret perimeter. Its these kind of little things that improve gameplay in quite subtle ways but help overall.
Lastly, if I were to simply delete the two mineral only bases (literally 4 clicks) the map would still be good. I am planning to keep them in currently though. One of the reasons for making this map was to add spice to FS. The mineral onlies contribute to that.
btw here are some walling pictures for the bottom right spawn, Im not necessarily saying they are the best or anything, there are lots of options. Also if you didn’t know already there are subtle building markers at the main ramps using plants. + Show Spoiler +
See in the above pic the nat entrance is a long corridor of unwalkable tiles so it is very forgiving and versatile for walling. Also makes for crisp gameplay for things like hydra busts and vult runbys. You can make a zergling tight wall by swapping the middle depot with a factory in the above picture. Or you can do a 1 rax 1 fac zealot tight wall like so: + Show Spoiler +
I also want to quickly make it clear that I love FS. Why else would I spend all this time making what is partly a homage to it. You wont get a bigger fan of brood war than me. The kespa mappers are all very good mappers. Towards the end of their careers I assume they had time constraints. I also want to point out that there are many many amazing korean mappers that never had their maps used by kespa.
eonzerg in the video above seems a bit concerned with walling at the Top left and Top right nats. I think/hope you will find that you can do some really strong defensive walls at both nats no problem. There are rocks that are fully unwalkable so you can make nice tight walls.
Top Right main and nat
Can you see the small rocks? You can enlarge the pictures if not. There is a rock on either side of the natural entrance. And there is the white chimney doodad on the right hand side there, so you can make your wall higher up, closer to the ramp and natural hatchery if you want to.
Top Left main and nat
A rock on the right hand side of the nat entrance, the white chimney on the left hand side of the nat entrance. And a rock on the left hand side of the nat slightly higher up.
Let me know if you find any problems with the walling or anything else though. Thanks again for making the video.
---------------------------------------------------------------- @tankgirl, the 12 o clock base and the 6 o clock base arent comparable. One is lowground, mineral only and wide open, while the other is highground, has gas and has 2 small ramps into it. And yes the 12 o clock has a semi drop spot behind it.
Had a play/obs tonight with A- player Clearoo and A+ SnowLove on this map. Clearoo pointed out that the mineral patches are all 1200 at main bases and gas is 4000. Is that supposed to be that way? I'm not sure I've noticed other maps like that. Thanks :D
I still do not like the reduced-by-default resources. There is also a lot of bad and unfinished terrain editing going on (for example on the edges of all the side 3rds. The bridge-edges at the mineral onlies seem to be there just for the sake of it, but instead of enhancing the aesthetics they add boring-looking long straight lines...
@Th1rdEye Thankyou for the kindness. Id join you/be hosting more myself but my new modem doesnt work with my brood war machine so I cant go on iccup at the moment. (Ive got a dual boot setup of xp and debian with brood war on the xp drive. Need to look into getting wine I guess). Yes the resources are meant to be 1200 minerals, 4000 gas.
@Freakling Earlier in the thread you said "I'd be interested to learn what the players think about the reduced minerals." This is the first time Ive seen you say you dont like the resource amounts. Why dont you like it?
The cliff edges at the 3rds arent unfinished. I could ofcourse put in an extra row of cliff tiles to smooth off the edge but at the expense of losing a row of buildable space. The other slightly more pretty option would be to move the cliff edges outwards by 1 tile. However, the reason I did it this way is to make each water area overlord safe. The current setup has a consistent straight line of unwalkable so gameplay is tight. If I went for the pretty option here, then there would be little spaces where marines etc could step closer and be able to pick off an overlord. Basically there was a small compromise decision to make; gameplay or aesthetics and I chose gameplay. I dont think its too ugly, but yes this is the obvious target for 'something that could be done differently'. Its important to prioritise overlord safety at these spots because the bottom left main cant easily get an overlord to a natural cliff, so overlords need a place to park. Overall I think the current setup hits the right mix. Lastly, this is a slightly strange point but it was also kind of a statement. It was sort of an attempt by me to say to newer mapmakers dont be afraid to do it your way, be confident. Obviously I cant prove that, and I expect it seems like a cop out but its true. The idea that its not your fault that you cant edit tiles to be fully unwalkable, and that brood war is a closed source game so we cant make changes that we would like to be able to. However, I admit it can be fun to work with an artificially limited set of tools. Again, I dont think its that ugly and I do think the gameplay is as tight as can be so Im not planning on changing those cliffs. Freakling, you suggest there are other spots with bad and unfinished terrain. Where?
Regarding the piers/harbours/asphalt to water cliffs: I think they look quite nice. Interesting that you think the 3 o clock is a long straight line. For me the couple of corners break it up and its reasonably attractive. They provide a bit of variation to the visuals.
I absolutely want you to pick holes in the map. The cliff edges at the high ground 3rds are the obvious target. Ive now explained why they are as they are. The asphalt to water cliffs dont bother me at all. By the way the big mud patch there at 3 is sort of meant to be straight line as if it was originally a man made area, in keeping with it being a kind of harbour or something.
Honestly that these are the only complaints so far from you Freakling (the infamously most grumpy person on the net), I consider that a massive compliment.
I haven't played that map nor seen it in action yet, but I am concerned about PvTs when players both spawn either on top or bottom. The push distance between bridges looks pretty short.
Theres a few things to talk about on that subject. First of all, its the same as on Circuit Breaker. Measuring with an scv in seconds:
Circuit Breaker Between Left spawns: 13.8/14.5 Between Right spawns: 14.4/14.6
CAS Between Top spawns: 14.1/14.8 Between Bottom spawns: 15.6/15.0
FS Around 16.5 to 17
There are some other important differences between CAS and FS though. Reaching the bridge is not the end of the contain/attack procedure. Both Circuit Breaker and CAS have more of a buffer space between the bridge and the actual entrance to the natural than FS. So terrans still have to travel some more distance.
Additionally, the terran has to cross a thinner bridge than on FS. The width of the bridge on CAS can be exploited defensively by the protoss player to pick off the more isolated tanks that initially cross. This kind of a defensive move is further supported by the map architecture on CAS because the path to the 3rd is wider than on FS, giving protoss more room to manoeuvre behind the bridges in order to attack the terran units that venture over the bridge.
Some Protoss players choose to fully engage the terran push as it crosses the middle of the map (depending on the intricacies of the builds and the timings etc). Well the middle of the map is much wider on CAS than on FS so this method of dealing with terran armies is aided.
A minor point is that the 2 bottom spawns on FS have an annoying little spot between the bridge and the entrance to nats where terran can put a tank in a more protected cubby. I made sure to get rid of them on CAS.
And lastly a really important point. The 2nd bridge! Protoss can retreat and allow the terran to approach, then later use the 2nd bridge to flank around. Conversely on fighting spirit, you get pinned in or you can try to go around through the high ground 3rd base but thats through 2 thin ramps and is a long distance (some Protoss players do still attempt it though). The terran might prepare his contain to account for this move ofcourse, and the bridge is quite small. However, they are a bit wider than on CB, and they are a bit shorter than on CB so Protoss attempting a break out is absolutely a viable tactic.
Im planning on bumping the resources up to standard amounts. Currently the mineral patches are 1200 and 4000 gas, but planning on switching them back to 1500 minerals and 5000 gas. What do you guys think?
I think you should have done this from the get-go. Experimental resource distribution is definitely not the focus of this map, so it ends up more like a diversion. From what I've seen as games and casts on this map some players may not even have been aware of the reduced resource count and just thrown off by their running out so fast. The layout is too much the all too familiar FS for any one to even expect that there might be something nonstandard going on. The layout also does not require or demand in any way that the resources be lowered.
I recommend moving on to another map, even if you don’t have much time for a whole new one maybe you could work on it little by little. I feel like this one and the other badlands map you have are as complete as they can get.
On July 06 2018 06:22 Jukado wrote: Im planning on bumping the resources up to standard amounts. Currently the mineral patches are 1200 and 4000 gas, but planning on switching them back to 1500 minerals and 5000 gas. What do you guys think?
No, otherwise there's no point in playing this map, just play FS
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