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On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time? On September 08 2016 12:59 Ars0n_ wrote:
I have no fun playing d- ranked people yet somehow b rank players have tons of fun beating up on noobies when there is no challenge or risk for losing? I just dont get it. Same reason some people practice against computers, so you can just focus purely on mechanics and get quality practice in that area.
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When I got into iccup the ranks were thicker as the game was more popular, and I got my ass handed to me by everyone. Everyone. I was d- for two seasons straight and I didnt even win a game until I went on a sixteen game loss streak. If your shitty at the game and you want to learn, find someone slightly better than you, we have skype chats, TL threads for practice partners, you name it. This is the internet. Your experience of a game is what you make of it. If you want to whine, you will whine. If you want to find equal practice partners, you can do that too. Its on you.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 09 2016 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time?
It's not that simple. Last time it was discussed on TL it sparked a 30+ pages debate.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/143803-rape-and-game-culture
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On September 09 2016 15:38 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time? It's not that simple. Last time it was discussed on TL it sparked a 30+ pages debate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/143803-rape-and-game-culture
I have to agree with Stephen Fry on this, I think it's ridiculous that people get so worked up about the casual use of a word.
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On September 07 2016 05:01 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2016 16:20 Highgamer wrote:
"Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to"
What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge.
they wouldn't be happy if they never who beforehand who they play against and if they never found out after. You need a point of reference to see how your developing yourself. I actually think your analogy is the one that doesn't fit.
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On September 09 2016 20:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2016 05:01 endy wrote:On September 06 2016 16:20 Highgamer wrote:
"Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to"
What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge. they wouldn't be happy if they never who beforehand who they play against and if they never found out after. You need a point of reference to see how your developing yourself. I actually think your analogy is the one that doesn't fit.
Yeah but unless you make them wear masks you'd always know who's on the field, so it was probably bad to use soccer in an analogy in the first place because well, smurfing isn't possible at all in soccer. It doesn't really matter anyway because it turns out Highgamer was agreed with my next post and was just playing the devil's advocate for Scarbo.
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On September 09 2016 20:30 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 20:08 Cele wrote:On September 07 2016 05:01 endy wrote:On September 06 2016 16:20 Highgamer wrote:
"Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to"
What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge. they wouldn't be happy if they never who beforehand who they play against and if they never found out after. You need a point of reference to see how your developing yourself. I actually think your analogy is the one that doesn't fit. Yeah but unless you make them wear masks you'd always know who's on the field, so it was probably bad to use soccer in an analogy in the first place because well, smurfing isn't possible at all in soccer. It doesn't really matter anyway because it turns out Highgamer was agreed with my next post and was just playing the devil's advocate for Scarbo.
hmh i share highgamers trail of thought. While i personally don't mind the ladder system anymore, i think it could be better. He meant to say the same imo?
Reason is, while ladder IS supposed to be competetive, it should also serve the function to match you against players of your skill once you have played enough games. However, between lack of players, short seasons and smurfing, you get matched against the right opponent very seldom.
€: to clarify: i don't agree with the OP at all, not the complaint and the tone. But imho there it's true that ladder in it's current state is working suboptimal for new players and lower skilled players. Whereas "lower skilled" is a strange attribution in itself. Back when i started playing the average player was around D+/C- old system perhaps. Nowadays it's a bit higher since verybody who still plays is pretty hardcore, but not that much.
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This debate does not exist about any competition, but iCCup. Think of a boxing game and how completely laughable the argument : "you have to get raped by very good players as a starter to become better" would be. Think of how horrible and what a waste of time the experience would be for those who watch the competition. Besides ask yourself id Tyson would even think of playing against a beginner. I am starting to wonder if any of the good players from iCCup who give very rude excuses for playing against noobs such as "don't cry, train hard pussy" have ever in there life participated in any sport competition. When I started boxing, or basketball, it was a necessity for me to start playing against people of my age / weight / level. If that chance was not given to me, I would have been very disapointed by the game and probably would have quitted. Think, for a second, of a young boxer at his first match, discovering that he was lied to : no, he was not going to measure his skills in a fair competition against someone of his level, he was instead going to face an heavy weight champion. The principle of a ladder or any competition / league system should be very simple : play vs people of your level / beat them / rank up / change division, play in a higher league. What it should never be (omg this is so obvious ...) is play against people of five divisions higher than you disguising themselves as your level, only to then insult you of a noob when you complain about he lack of fairness of such a system.
Guys, let's make it simple once and for all
1) Good players should have dignity and not smurf beginners / casual players.
2) If there is a ranking system, it should be used as an indication of level and thus when someone says 1v1 d d+, d or d+ players should join.
3) There is no pride in lying. Nore fame in beating beginners.
4) Brood War is probably the most difficult video game out there, as well as the best. We must make its ladder experience fair and enjoyable to new comers.
5) The all "we are such an elite" thing is just ego.
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On September 09 2016 15:38 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time? It's not that simple. Last time it was discussed on TL it sparked a 30+ pages debate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/143803-rape-and-game-culture The fact that a lot of people can whine for extended periods of time does not complicate the fundamental issue, at all.
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So when i play at Fish server, should I dodge playing against Flash? He is 1000 levels above me but who cares, I'm gonna try him, win if possible, allthough I won't expect it. It will give me a lot of pleasure to just play against him.
Same goes for D ranks playing A ranks. Huge skill difference, and the D rank should take it as a challange, an opportunity.
Then again, I am the type of player who hates losing, so my goal is to learn and get better. I have fun when I win, more so if it's after a decent game. I can understand that someone wants just to play the game at his level because he gets the most fun of it. I understand that not everyone wants to improve. I just hoped that when he meets much better person, he's gonna take some fun by trying to all-in the guy, win the game and then laugh at him (in a nice way).
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On September 10 2016 00:24 Bonyth wrote:
So when i play at Fish server, should I dodge playing against Flash? He is 1000 levels above me but who cares, I'm gonna try him, win if possible, allthough I won't expect it. It will give me a lot of pleasure to just play against him.
Same goes for D ranks playing A ranks. Huge skill difference, and the D rank should take it as a challange, an opportunity.
Then again, I am the type of player who hates losing, so my goal is to learn and get better. I have fun when I win, more so if it's after a decent game. I can understand that someone wants just to play the game at his level because he gets the most fun of it. I understand that not everyone wants to improve. I just hoped that when he meets much better person, he's gonna take some fun by trying to all-in the guy, win the game and then laugh at him (in a nice way).
you Know when you play flash. Deciding to play vs better players is one thing, running into them as smurf is different. I also like to play vs better players, yet i understand if some people have enough of it, when they play 10 much better players in a row on ladder.
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On September 09 2016 23:55 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 15:38 endy wrote:On September 09 2016 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time? It's not that simple. Last time it was discussed on TL it sparked a 30+ pages debate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/143803-rape-and-game-culture The fact that a lot of people can whine for extended periods of time does not complicate the fundamental issue, at all.
you don't have to care but you also could care, btw it sounds like you have emotional issues and whine about someone who makes a call to care
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On September 10 2016 00:36 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 23:55 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 09 2016 15:38 endy wrote:On September 09 2016 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time? It's not that simple. Last time it was discussed on TL it sparked a 30+ pages debate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/143803-rape-and-game-culture The fact that a lot of people can whine for extended periods of time does not complicate the fundamental issue, at all. you don't have to care but you also could care, btw it sounds like you have emotional issues and whine about someone who makes a call to care 'you disagree that saying rape is a bad thing, so I think you have emotional issues'
K.
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Okay, some people in this thread are insane. I don't have a horse in this race since I don't even play ladder, I've only come back on TL because of the ASL and the fact that I'm playing through the campaign, but there is some seriously elitest attitude on here. Since I don't play ladder, I'm not going into the debate of whether or not the ladder ranking works. However, some of you have the worst arguments against "whining" about the system not working and you should just deal with it and somehow enjoy it.
Are you all serious? I won't mention names but some of this discussion is pretty disgusting in my opinion. If there is a ranking or a matchmaking system, it should work. You should not be getting destroyed by players that are supposedly on the same level as you. It is valid to complain that a broken system is broken. "You should enjoy getting destroyed, it will help you learn" is a terrible argument. Getting destroyed is a waste of time and is not enjoyable. "Why play ladder if you don't want to get better" is another terrible argument. Some people just want to play casually because they don't have time to try to get better. I used to play Dota 2 a lot, but recently I started to play casually. The matchmaking system in Dota 2 works to allow me to start playing against people of my level. A ladder system should also work to allow casual players to play against players of their own level, it should not be an elitest try-hard system catered towards players trying to play competitively. If it were, fine, but since Battle.net is pretty dead now, iCCup is the only system remaining to play in for foreigners, and it also has a ranking system while Battle.net doesn't.
Some people use their own anecdotes that they are a low-level player and they enjoy getting destroyed to get better. Good for you, I seriously mean it, I used to play a decent amount to get better as well and I used to get killed a lot. However, I don't do it anymore partially because I don't have the time, and if I were to play ladder, I would want to play against other people like me, not crazy B level players. Not everyone is in the same boat.
Again, I don't play ladder, so this is not an argument about whether the actual ranking system works or not. This is more about you guys who bash people who complain about a broken system. You continue to do that and you can enjoy watching Brood Wars become a dead game with no one left to play it.
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On September 10 2016 00:40 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2016 00:36 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On September 09 2016 23:55 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 09 2016 15:38 endy wrote:On September 09 2016 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 08 2016 12:09 Th1rdEye wrote:
How is it fair that TL allows people to use the word "rape" in the context that they do? Like OP and few posters down. I know someone who would be very upset with seeing the word used like that, and I don't use it either. You know, some people have actually been raped Handle your own emotional issues, you baby. If my saying rape causes you a problem, guess what? It's your problem. Why should TL become your fucking mother because you know someone who had a bad time? It's not that simple. Last time it was discussed on TL it sparked a 30+ pages debate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/143803-rape-and-game-culture The fact that a lot of people can whine for extended periods of time does not complicate the fundamental issue, at all. you don't have to care but you also could care, btw it sounds like you have emotional issues and whine about someone who makes a call to care 'you disagree that saying rape is a bad thing, so I think you have emotional issues' K.
nope sry you got it wrong
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Wow, this thread gets better by the hour. I didn't even want to post this but by now, whatever...
On September 09 2016 20:30 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 20:08 Cele wrote:On September 07 2016 05:01 endy wrote:On September 06 2016 16:20 Highgamer wrote:
"Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to"
What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge. they wouldn't be happy if they never who beforehand who they play against and if they never found out after. You need a point of reference to see how your developing yourself. I actually think your analogy is the one that doesn't fit. Yeah but unless you make them wear masks you'd always know who's on the field, so it was probably bad to use soccer in an analogy in the first place because well, smurfing isn't possible at all in soccer. It doesn't really matter anyway because it turns out Highgamer was agreed with my next post and was just playing the devil's advocate for Scarbo.
Dude, my analogy was just perfect to demonstrate my point, don't be so bossy. Nowhere do I say 'Broodwar is like football' or 'Ladder is like a football league from real life'.
I think you have a flawed understanding of what an analogy is.
Analogy means 'accordance in certain regards' - not 'total accordance', unless this is specifically demanded like maybe in hard science. If I come up with an analogy, it just has to be clear what regards I'm talking about.
In the above example, it was clear from context that I was talking about competitiveness on a ladder, which most people would say is given if on every rung of the ladder people of the same skill play against each other until some of them climb the next rung. Then I could have said "and an A rank player in disguise bashing a D rank player is against this common idea of a competitive ladder" - but I chose a more pointed way of expressing this thought by evoking the somewhat humorous idea of Messi (with stilts and a mustache or something haha) on the pitch versus FC DFL (read: double figure losers), and by doing that obviously only setting the gigantic skill differences in analogy, not asking you to imagine if this was possible in real life...
I don't even know how you end up comparing anything else at this point. Your follow up post to Cele with the mind-blowing observation that smurfing is not possible in football leaves me baffled... Did you ever read a whitty text in a newspaper or a book? They're full of analogies that only demonstrate one thing fittingly and leave the rest to imagination. Noone would start making an argument about missing 'realism'.
If I said 'Me beating Flash is analog to David beating Goliath", would you start pondering about whether a computer game works like a slingshot? Or whether the first thing is less likely than the latter? (which is surely the case)
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choose not to feel harmed, and you won't feel harmed. don't feel harmed, and you haven't been.
the mind adapts and converts to its purposes the obstacle to our acting. the impediment to action advances action. what stands in the way becomes the way.
in all that happens, keep before your eyes those who experienced it before you, and felt shock and outrage and resentment at it. and now where are they? nowehere. is that what you want to be like?
because anger, too, is a weakness, as much as breaking down and giving up the struggle.
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Scarbo, he's telling you to give up on your life for a few years and live only for BW, or to hack or buy ICCup.
Or to stand in awe before this piece of stoic wish-wash and happily let him take your ladder points.
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EPT
