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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On September 05 2016 01:01 GGzerG wrote: In the beginning of the season in SC2 and most games, it is just as difficult.. This is not true for SC2. The MMR does not get reset between seasons and thus you are playing always the same people regardless of the phase of the season. The placement in league is irrelevant for the matchmaking. | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
ICCup has allowed smurfing since its inception, the ladder reset is only a minor fluctuation in this already existing system. They implemented some limited form of rank carrying over from previous season, but it's minor. This could definitely be expanded and especially with the new rank system implemented there is no reason not to. (C- level starts at D+, B- level start at C-, A- level start at B- or equivalent) Good players will try to rank up so they can play players at their rank, if you don't want to play them then check their iccup profile, name your game appropriately (ex: 1v1 D FS, MAX C- | 1v1 D noobs | 1v1 TvX max C+ ) and ban people with no existing records. If you can't find a game at this point, be less stringent about one of those requirements. In my brief experience (I usually only ladder at most 20games a season, otherwise just play friends) players will respect what you write. Today I played a game (1v1 D ) vs a bulgarian and the player once game started said he wasn't really 'D' rank, and I said I don't mind because I did not indicate a max rank and I enjoy the opportunity to test myself vs someone better than me. He pointed me to this TL topic and beat me soundly. Improvement and practice should mostly come from playing with practice partners, and reviewing your games. Laddering should be considered a method of testing your current level and stressing your mechanics. If you're having trouble finding people your own level to play with, add people whom you have really close games with and ask them if they want to play again sometime non-ladder or ladder. BW is your own experience to make. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 06 2016 03:15 opisska wrote: Eh, not entirely telling the whole story though, are you? Inactive peoples mmr slowly drop, but many of them will come back at the start of seasons, or use multiple accounts, etc. This is not true for SC2. The MMR does not get reset between seasons and thus you are playing always the same people regardless of the phase of the season. The placement in league is irrelevant for the matchmaking. | ||
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
On September 06 2016 02:35 Highgamer wrote: "Learn from losing, no fun, aight?" With all due respect, consider this: If you come home from a day at work, and you're tired, you feel like doing some BW... then you don't want to play games to study, you want a little thrill but not a beating. Also: For every foreigner-owning-korean there are probably a few koreans who're just as good/bad as your average Iccup-b00n. They just have more players, waaay more players. That can watch professionally commentated BW 24/7. Well, if you want to play it casually, go ahead, join some hunters, or play with a friend (or stranger for that matter) who's on your exact skill level. Laddering is meant to be competitive. Is it so hard to wrap your head around that? | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
And I go to video game events and make tournaments for a living. | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
On September 06 2016 08:10 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Well, if you want to play it casually, go ahead, join some hunters, or play with a friend (or stranger for that matter) who's on your exact skill level. Laddering is meant to be competitive. Is it so hard to wrap your head around that? No, YOU cannot wrap your head around the point of this discussion. Every competitive sport in the world has leagues for players of different skill level where you can compete against people of your caliber until you get better. Sometimes you invite the big ones to test yourself, but you can also join a competitive environment of your level where you meet random opponents. "Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to" edit: Tournaments/Cups is where every skill level is represented, everybody knows, nobody complains. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
Set your own goals, which you can accomplish. F.e. set a goal to minimize the amount of idle workers in that game. And bit by bit you will improve and maybe even win at the start of the season. And then you are the "smurf" at the start of the season. Always take a lesson from a beat-down and you might even enjoy losing. Who cares about your ladder rank or the amount of iccup points? The fun is what matters the most and this is what makes BW at least for me so special. You can have fun while losing. Yes, it is not always like this. There were games against good foreigners, where they beat me with only one vulture harrasing me. Was this fun? Probably not., but it could have been, if I was better. Take ICCUP as an opportunity to play Broodwar and not to WIN games... + Show Spoiler + Man writing this makes me wanna come back from inactivity and play some ..:D | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On September 06 2016 16:20 Highgamer wrote: No, YOU cannot wrap your head around the point of this discussion. Every competitive sport in the world has leagues for players of different skill level where you can compete against people of your caliber until you get better. Sometimes you invite the big ones to test yourself, but you can also join a competitive environment of your level where you meet random opponents. "Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to" I laughed hard on the last part. But then again it is kinda true, I simply look at their stats, if they join my "D" game and they have like 9-0 stats I simply ban them until someone else joins. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2269 Posts
On September 06 2016 18:36 Wrath wrote: I laughed hard on the last part. But then again it is kinda true, I simply look at their stats, if they join my "D" game and they have like 9-0 stats I simply ban them until someone else joins. that mentality makes iccup a shitty place to play | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On September 06 2016 03:50 Dazed_Spy wrote: Eh, not entirely telling the whole story though, are you? Inactive peoples mmr slowly drop, but many of them will come back at the start of seasons, or use multiple accounts, etc. But MMR decay is nothing significant, you won't drop multiple leagues in a few years time. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On September 06 2016 16:20 Highgamer wrote: "Ladder is competitive" means exactly this, and not: "Ladder is where Messi's Barcelona beats FC Doodletown in disguise if he wants to" What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On September 07 2016 05:01 endy wrote: What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge. yea a club who already knows how to play football and knows about barca. a newbie D- player, vs a C+ no name they have never and will never hear about, does not care about playing someone 5 ranks ahead of them, they just want to have fun | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
On September 07 2016 05:01 endy wrote: What a terrible analogy. Not only in soccer they play in a league (La Liga) which is totally different from a ladder, but when they play in the Copa del Rey (tournament with all 4 divisions), I'm pretty sure that 4th division clubs are happy to face a legendary team and see it as a super interesting challenge. You don't read posts carefully it seems or don't understand them... I did not make an analogy between soccer leagues and ladders... The analogy only concerns the difference in team's strengths that is analog to the skill difference between A/B smurfs and D/D- players. Additionally: In my post I specifically point out that in Tournaments/Cups - like the Copa for example or Iccup-Tournaments - noone is against big differences in skill levels. Especially because they see it coming and Messi is not disguised as a 4th division club player. I personally have no problem with Iccup, I play higher ranked players to learn from those games, and tell them to leave when I'm not in a learning-mood. But these topics about bad ladder experiences for D-ranks are popping up again and again, there is something warped about our die-hard attitude that is scaring away people who could become future members of the community if only the ladder worked like a ladder should - and that problem deserves an unbiased discussion. I'm thankful for Iccup as it is and assume it's hard work to reform the ladder, so I would never rage against those nice people who keep it going. But one can point out problems or not... I get the impression that a lot of veterans here either cannot even take another point of view any more, or just don't want to change the convenient status-quo where they can get their ego boosting dose of noob-bashing every now and then. | ||
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WhiteKnight.US
Great Britain102 Posts
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Honestly you have a couple choices. If you just want to play a close game and not worry about getting smashed, why not get a practice partner or friend to play with during this time? If your primary goal is to just have fun close games and not improving, this is the best way to do it. Ladder will always have smurfs and the beginning of every ICCUP season is like this no matter what. So you can play with a practice partner or play and try to improve. There are ways around this. You can even play on bnet if you want, assuming you play a non hacker, I imagine most on there are pretty bad as well. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On September 07 2016 06:27 Highgamer wrote: I get the impression that a lot of veterans here either cannot even take another point of view any more, or just don't want to change the convenient status-quo where they can get their ego boosting dose of noob-bashing every now and then. I don't know, when I first started to play Starcraft online in 2005 I really didn't mind losing. I absolutely loved how challenging the game was. It was just regular battlenet and I played a mix of FMP, hunters, 1v1 on regular maps, UMS. Over 10 years later, I'm still not even good and I'm still totally fine with the current system. You have the right not to like how ladder works, but as said many times before you also can play non-ladder games. I guess we simply have a very different mindset which explains why so many players are fine with the current system (not only top players by the way), and also a fair number players who, like you, find it problematic. I promise you we're not a bunch of old and mean veterans trying to bash noobs with smurf accounts. On the contrary, fresh blood is the best thing that can happen to the game we love, we just don't understand why losing wasn't an issue for us and it is for you. Actually, assuming you're Highgamer on iccup, you have a pretty decent record. Out of the 12 games you played, there was one C+ high, one B- high, and one B last season. You defeated both the C+ and the B guys. A few C- high and all others were D/D+ high. Didn't beating the C+ and B guys give you a lot of satisfaction? It definitely should have. There's really no evidence supporting smurf doing noob bashing, unless you're checking everyone's record before you start the game, but then you would have banned the guy who was B last season, instead you beat him, that's awesome! | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
On September 07 2016 08:20 endy wrote: I don't know, when I first started to play Starcraft online in 2005 I really didn't mind losing. I absolutely loved how challenging the game was. It was just regular battlenet and I played a mix of FMP, hunters, 1v1 on regular maps, UMS. Over 10 years later, I'm still not even good and I'm still totally fine with the current system. You have the right not to like how ladder works, but as said many times before you also can play non-ladder games. I guess we simply have a very different mindset which explains why so many players are fine with the current system (not only top players by the way), and also a fair number players who, like you, find it problematic. I promise you we're not a bunch of old and mean veterans trying to bash noobs with smurf accounts. On the contrary, fresh blood is the best thing that can happen to the game we love, we just don't understand why losing wasn't an issue for us and it is for you. Actually, assuming you're Highgamer on iccup, you have a pretty decent record. Out of the 12 games you played, there was one C+ high, one B- high, and one B last season. You defeated both the C+ and the B guys. A few C- high and all others were D/D+ high. Didn't beating the C+ and B guys give you a lot of satisfaction? It definitely should have. There's really no evidence supporting smurf doing noob bashing, unless you're checking everyone's record before you start the game, but then you would have banned the guy who was B last season, instead you beat him, that's awesome! Funny thing is: We don't have a different mindset ^^, I feel exactly as you do. I personally have no problem at all with the ladder as it is or was before the change. I just want to play BW and improve over time, and I realized right away that playing the best possible opponents is the best benchmark. So, apart from understandable frustration after too many beatings, I never complain about the whole thing. I understood right away that Iccup is a gift from heaven for people like me who have problems on Fish because of relatively bad internet. When a new season starts, I host games like "D to C" or "D/C" that indicate I'm not 'real D' - and as soon as I rank up I host "D+++" or "C-" and so on and hardly ever send higher ranked players away. I have shit stats all over at the end of the season and I don't mind, because I literally never play people on ladder that are worse ranked... unless they force it. I just started defending people like Scarbo here because I think I can take their point of view. Iccup does not have an optimal ladder system, one can lament that without pointing the finger at anyone. Every new season many people (like me by now huehue) are forced to rank up again, but not all host "D/C games" or can even host. Additionally, there are a lot of mid/high level smurfs who literally only come to beat noobs or boost their rank, one should point the finger at those. Maybe ShieldBattery will help the people who have issues with Iccup (which I don't have ^^). | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
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Ars0n_
28 Posts
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