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On March 04 2016 12:22 vOdToasT wrote:
Now that Flash is back, I really think that the time has come to get rid of Fighting Spirit and Circuit Breaker.
(Source: Post KeSPA TLPD stats)
Even without Flash, those maps are Terran favoured. Imagine what they will be like with Flash.
Man I'm just sick of FS in general. Python is already becoming a thing on Fish again though which is nice
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Before FS came out python actually was the map everyone played on.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
they should move on to Avalon, the best map created in this universe
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
Outsider, Monty Hall, and Hitchhiker best maps
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On March 04 2016 09:03 okum wrote:
It's definitely a question of maps. Remember 2010 SPL and Protoss Plains? Or 2009 SPL and Zerg Royal? Both maps had to be taken out of the rotation after two months, lol. Imagine such maps being used in starleagues for a few seasons.
Looking at the most popular maps, which are generally considered reasonably balanced, you could probably make the case that terran generally has the most options and the most potential to come back from a deficit. We only ever saw the full terran potential realized by Flash (and arguably Fantasy) though, and since Jaedong very nearly managed to dominate the same way, you have to wonder if it's not just a question of chance and small sample size that we never saw a protoss player rise to the same height. Imagine a player with Bisu's and Stork's strengths in their prime and with neither player's weakness... or imagine Bisu with Jaedong's psyche.
The Terran dominance is also caused by PvP and ZvZ being more volatile than TvT, which means there's a lower chance of the best T players being upset and thus leaving tournaments early.
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On March 04 2016 12:30 WinterViewbot420 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 12:22 vOdToasT wrote:
Now that Flash is back, I really think that the time has come to get rid of Fighting Spirit and Circuit Breaker.
(Source: Post KeSPA TLPD stats)
Even without Flash, those maps are Terran favoured. Imagine what they will be like with Flash. Man I'm just sick of FS in general. Python is already becoming a thing on Fish again though which is nice
i'm all in for a luna comeback. Why does no one play it anymore?
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Let's play some trivia.
I'm going to arbitrarily set the "modern" era of BW at roughly 2007, when Bisu beat Savior.
Since then:
Q: How many Terrans besides Flash and Fantasy have appeared in more than 1 individual league semifinals?
A: 1. Iris
Q: How many individual players of each race have reached the semifinals of an individual league?
A: 10 Terrans, 12 Protoss, 17 Zergs
Q: Cumulatively, how many semifinals appearances have been made by each race in that period?
A: 27 Terran, 37 Protoss, 37 Zerg
Q: Counting 1st as 3, 2nd as 2, and semifinalist as 3, what is the total sum of individual league achievement in that period for each race?
A: Terran: 52 Protoss: 59 Zerg: 62
Terrans "dominated" in league qualification, which was heavily weighted towards pre-2009, and race win percentage. What that means to me is, an average pro Terran playing on a low-stakes qualifier or Proleague match, will have a statistical advantage, then inevitably become fodder in the individual leagues. It also means attributing Flash's success to Terran imbalance is unfair to what he accomplished. He and Fantasy succeeded in spite of universal Terran mediocrity.
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Can you share with us how many mirror match-ups happened for all the races before semi-finals? Seems quite likely that fantasy or Flash knocked out a lot of terrans themselves since TvT is much more predictable than for example ZvZ.
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Does anyone know his current rank?
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Rank 16, timena, 83 wins 32 loses 2796 points
B rank.
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On March 03 2016 09:26 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 06:18 Highgamer wrote:
If anyone who understands korean and watches all these streams anyway could just take a short note on every little thing Flash says that isn't common knowledge (to foreigners...), and post them somewhere in this or another thread, like a little blog, I'd really appreciate.
I'm just rewatching his games against Free from tuesday and I think he's commenting on his scouting (he turns away really fast after seeing 1-2 things) or makes short comments after the game. Maybe he's stating obvious stuff and just trying to actually talk to his viewers more - I'm 100% fine with him being as laconic as he is for now apart from game-commenting - but maybe he's also giving Flash-insights.
Thanks in advance
edit: on second thought, it would be a great feat to do this as much as possible for all of the comments that these progamers give in hundreds and hundreds of hours (but especially for Flash ^^), somebody must be watching... one of the good tips i remember hearing from flash was: "Starcraft is all about set up... the game is decided on how well you set up your economy into future. If you're zerg then knowing how to properly time the drones, respond to tiniest changes( make few more drones/less) will guarantee a win."
This a lie. The real quote was :
"Starcraft is all about set up... So choose your ruler wisely"
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On March 04 2016 23:09 Savant wrote:
Let's play some trivia.
I'm going to arbitrarily set the "modern" era of BW at roughly 2007, when Bisu beat Savior.
Since then:
Q: How many Terrans besides Flash and Fantasy have appeared in more than 1 individual league semifinals?
A: 1. Iris
Q: How many individual players of each race have reached the semifinals of an individual league?
A: 10 Terrans, 12 Protoss, 17 Zergs
Q: Cumulatively, how many semifinals appearances have been made by each race in that period?
A: 27 Terran, 37 Protoss, 37 Zerg
Q: Counting 1st as 3, 2nd as 2, and semifinalist as 3, what is the total sum of individual league achievement in that period for each race?
A: Terran: 52 Protoss: 59 Zerg: 62
Terrans "dominated" in league qualification, which was heavily weighted towards pre-2009, and race win percentage. What that means to me is, an average pro Terran playing on a low-stakes qualifier or Proleague match, will have a statistical advantage, then inevitably become fodder in the individual leagues. It also means attributing Flash's success to Terran imbalance is unfair to what he accomplished. He and Fantasy succeeded in spite of universal Terran mediocrity.
quality post, thank you.
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On March 04 2016 12:22 vOdToasT wrote:
Now that Flash is back, I really think that the time has come to get rid of Fighting Spirit and Circuit Breaker.
(Source: Post KeSPA TLPD stats)
Even without Flash, those maps are Terran favoured. Imagine what they will be like with Flash.
I agree with you on getting rid of FS as it is so heavily favored by terran and protoss that it isn't even funny. No wonder zerg progamers pick circuit because it is the most balanced map by far. Rush distance is just about right. FS rush distance is abnormally close. 8 barrack on fs vs zerg is just so easy to pull off because rush distance is ridiculously short. Just about everything about that map is bad for zergs and protoss(vs terran). As you know, zergs must constantly defend against rushes/timing pushes (toss deathball, 3 tank push death ball, +1 zlot, sairs, dt, MnM push( 4 barrack, 3 barrack) Not to mention that its extremely easy for terrans and protoss to get 3rd and that means zerg has to play much harder. Of course zergs can also hydra rush/ling rush but thats about it and it usually gets roflstomped by one of the most ridiculous simcity(toss makin gate=>nexus=>cybernex=> forge BECAUSE of simcity).
Circuit should be the most popular map in my opinion. I don't like other maps when both players have to show their best skills. I do like other maps when its individual leages but generally when progamers or we just want to play on ladder/casually to improve and practice i'd say circuit HAS to be the best.
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Flash is back
Imbalance discussion takes over
=) <3 flash
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On March 05 2016 06:53 StylishVODs wrote:
Flash is back
Imbalance discussion takes over
=) <3 flash
I think Broodwar is Terran favored at S-class level.
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Bring back LT! I Mean Python is fine map without annoying tankable high grounds. Still post KeSPA scene is stuck without having new maps so they loop old maps again which will lead to nowhere. If they will use new maps they gonna need to invent new Fresh strats Which is what scene needs. I think many korean mapmakers are coming back seeing BW is still aLive. Someone should ask Rose.of.Dream to create a New masterpiece or at least play his latest maps:  Wind and Cloud, Pamir Plateau
On March 05 2016 07:02 duke91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 06:53 StylishVODs wrote:
Flash is back
Imbalance discussion takes over
=) <3 flash I think Broodwar is Terran favored at S-class level.
I don't know If I can agree or not with this but f.e. Last has 4 smurfs which are top in rank:
4. ever)t(ashley
6. gosu
7. hild
12. melverc
And maybe this too:
2. baker221d(? who's this I wonder)
Rush reached S rank if you count he is relatively new to scene:
3. moksaeggi
Light has returned not long ago too:
1. eros_light
10. starmaster
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On March 05 2016 04:42 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 12:22 vOdToasT wrote:
Now that Flash is back, I really think that the time has come to get rid of Fighting Spirit and Circuit Breaker.
(Source: Post KeSPA TLPD stats)
Even without Flash, those maps are Terran favoured. Imagine what they will be like with Flash. I agree with you on getting rid of FS as it is so heavily favored by terran and protoss that it isn't even funny. No wonder zerg progamers pick circuit because it is the most balanced map by far. Rush distance is just about right. FS rush distance is abnormally close. 8 barrack on fs vs zerg is just so easy to pull off because rush distance is ridiculously short. Just about everything about that map is bad for zergs and protoss(vs terran). As you know, zergs must constantly defend against rushes/timing pushes (toss deathball, 3 tank push death ball, +1 zlot, sairs, dt, MnM push( 4 barrack, 3 barrack) Not to mention that its extremely easy for terrans and protoss to get 3rd and that means zerg has to play much harder. Of course zergs can also hydra rush/ling rush but thats about it and it usually gets roflstomped by one of the most ridiculous simcity(toss makin gate=>nexus=>cybernex=> forge BECAUSE of simcity). Circuit should be the most popular map in my opinion. I don't like other maps when both players have to show their best skills. I do like other maps when its individual leages but generally when progamers or we just want to play on ladder/casually to improve and practice i'd say circuit HAS to be the best.
FS is not Protoss favoured. It is 50% in ZvP.
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Just found this awesome thread and watched some of Flash's games vs Free. I knew his macro was good but looking at it in first person is just a totally different experience. The way he keeps his money so low while multi-tasking on so many different fronts is just out of this world. Keep the vods coming!
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On March 05 2016 18:46 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 04:42 Shinokuki wrote:On March 04 2016 12:22 vOdToasT wrote:
Now that Flash is back, I really think that the time has come to get rid of Fighting Spirit and Circuit Breaker.
(Source: Post KeSPA TLPD stats)
Even without Flash, those maps are Terran favoured. Imagine what they will be like with Flash. I agree with you on getting rid of FS as it is so heavily favored by terran and protoss that it isn't even funny. No wonder zerg progamers pick circuit because it is the most balanced map by far. Rush distance is just about right. FS rush distance is abnormally close. 8 barrack on fs vs zerg is just so easy to pull off because rush distance is ridiculously short. Just about everything about that map is bad for zergs and protoss(vs terran). As you know, zergs must constantly defend against rushes/timing pushes (toss deathball, 3 tank push death ball, +1 zlot, sairs, dt, MnM push( 4 barrack, 3 barrack) Not to mention that its extremely easy for terrans and protoss to get 3rd and that means zerg has to play much harder. Of course zergs can also hydra rush/ling rush but thats about it and it usually gets roflstomped by one of the most ridiculous simcity(toss makin gate=>nexus=>cybernex=> forge BECAUSE of simcity). Circuit should be the most popular map in my opinion. I don't like other maps when both players have to show their best skills. I do like other maps when its individual leages but generally when progamers or we just want to play on ladder/casually to improve and practice i'd say circuit HAS to be the best. FS is not Protoss favoured. It is 50% in ZvP.
It is. The fact that you said it is 50% in zvp even more enforces that FS isn't a balanced map.. ZvP generally is 54:46 somewhere like that. A true balanced map is where tvz is favored, zvp is favored, pvt is favored. On fs, zvt IS MASSIVELY unfavored while zvp is 50%. Its basically a death sentence for zergs. Come on with that poverty knowledge. FS is the best map good tosses can do 1 gate and get away with murder=> (gate=>nexus=>cybernex=>forge). Simcity is so ridiculous that toss can just block 10-20 lings with one cannon because opening is limited to one space. Zergs have to go eiher hydra first or deviate from a good build in order to respond to ridiculousness of protoss. Now what I meant by rush distance being so short was that zergs are subject to all kinds of timing pushes/rushes so zergs must cut down their drone(CRITICAL to economy) and respond faster to them by making sunks/units. Hence it is also easier for t/P to cheese.
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EPT
