• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 12:29
CET 18:29
KST 02:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview12Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2RSL Season 4 announced for March-April7Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft 2 Not at the Esports World Cup 2026 Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) HomeStory Cup 28 StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report
Brood War
General
Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates BW General Discussion Liquipedia.net NEEDS editors for Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Path of Exile Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Join illminati in Luanda Angola+27 60 696 7068
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2196 users

Foreigner Elo Ranks 2012 - 2015

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 21:17:13
August 21 2015 17:01 GMT
#1
[image loading]


Disclaimer: The following article is a compilation of self generated statistics. It's just an estimate and not a flawless one. Furthermore, it does include Scan as foreigner. If you feel the urge to place criticism, please do so after fully reading the text. By the way, this post is not related to Teamliquid, Broodwar.de, ICCup, Liquipedia or any platform, but my own doing. This post might or might not contain porn.



[image loading]


In the past weeks we have discussed whether or not (Wiki)Scan should be considered a foreigner or not. Personally, I found the discussion to be absurd - he's most definitely Korean and most definitely a member of the foreign community. Consequently, the subsequent discussions missed the point, and the underlying problems weren't understood by most, as semantics overtowered the core issue: Can Scan be beaten by the ordinary player? Probably not. However, how do you deliver "proof"? You can't, nor can this article. Yet, a ranking based on the Elo number might help to quantify his skill.

It doesn't end here. In the discussions players weren't tired to stress out that they're not in for the money. I believe that. What's in there then? Maybe competitive drive. Maybe the money isn't what really helps you to get your ass up and train some more. A somewhat regularly updated ranking might give you something in return for your effort, and even if it's just a small token of respect - it's at least something.


[image loading]
the basic idea: high Elo numbers demand celebration and increase fandom


Furthermore, numbers, even if not entirely objective, help writers and casters. We can use them to tell the audience how good someone is, even if the person hasn't won anything notable yet. It helps to justify posts advertisings streams of up and coming players. It helps showing trends... I think you get the idea.


[image loading]


Before there are numbers, you should first try to understand what Elo is, or why I chose it over any other rating. There's the simple reason that it's easier to calculate, interprete and archive than Glicko2...

... but that doesn't really matter. Elo rankings can be understood as - this is a very vague explanation - an estimator of skill. Skill can't be observed in nature, hence you have to calculate it artificially. This is done by simply assigning a start value to a player (1000) and giving or taking points depending on games won and lost. The higher the number, the better the player. How many points are assigned per won/lost match depends on the rankings of both players. It's rather difficult and the formula has more letters and symbols than the ordinary person likes. Anyhow:


[image loading]
magic goes in and a number comes out
Edit: Due to questions in the thread: Go and read more about that on Wikipedia if you're interested in the maths. The K Factors are taken from B.net)



The most important part is that the ranking only works if any player has a decent amount of games on his record. With less than 20 games the ranking is anything but accurate, with more it gets better, but only works once there are at least 30 games. My calculations showed that for our small scene the fluctuation of the rankings is rather high - if players have less than fifty games.

The biggest advantage is that you can indirectly read something out of the ranking. E.g. a player with 1700 points matched against one with 1500 will defeat a player with 3 out of 4 times. To be exact, the chances of winning with having 200 points more is 76%.

However, there are downsides to the ranking. For one, there's a thing called point inflation. This means that with more players entering, more and higher points will be distributed. As a result very good players in the beginning will score lower or equal than "above average" players a few thousand games later. This problem increases as we experienced periods in which good players left the scene and thus their rankings stagnated.

As the title suggests, I calculated the Elo ranks of all foreigners in between January 2012 and today. Events included are:

  • Defiler Tournaments, including the Super Tour
  • TLS 1 - 3 , TLC 1 - 4
  • Defiler Mini Tours, Defiler Gaz Tours
  • Gambit Cup, Nation War, SBWI Teamleague, some ICCup CL
  • small events (eon-, draw-, alc-, heroes of the storm-, hearthstone beta-, ... ,-tour)


The criteria were something like: It was open to everyone, hence any national event (Russian LANs, netwars cups, German KOTH) weren't included. Also, very badly archived tournaments are only partially analyzed - e.g. several Canadian-driven events, several of the bw.de tours and several ICCup grids and MCA tours. Sadly, I couldn't restore everything.

Last but not least, especially Defiler tournaments gave me a headache. There were plenty of smurfs, some of which I couldn't identify. However, since we have a really, really large sample size (about 20k games) it shouldn't skew the estimator too much. That leaves one thing: Defiler featured players like Terror[fOu] (pro), Neagle (hacker), Sunday (hacker), iiN.Jaedong (hacker), FengZi (Chinese pro) or IOPS'Sense (pro). Thanks to the power of hindsight, I added weigths to them, e.g. Sense started with a 1500 point lead, rather than the ordinary 1000 points.

Ok, now for the really last bit of information: Notorious cheaters and hackers have been removed from the finalized rankings, regardless of when the last incident happened; however, their ranking is "invisible" in my data base. This includes map hackers and other people without interest (e.g. aforementioned professionals).

For now, you can read the numbers. However, I recommend you read the article to the end, or you'll bound to critize some statements of the statistics, which will make you sound like a moron. Because they'll be explained...


[image loading]
Entire list of players on Google Drive, Post Teamliquid Legacy Starleague 3




[image loading]
Entire list of players on Google Drive, standing 21.8.2015



[image loading]


As you can see in the two pictures above, the rankings changed over time. I already mentioned it, the years 2014 and 2015 didn't feature nearly as many high class events than the previous years did. As a consequence a lot of players should have their status "active" removed. Others didn't participate in the toughest environments - but more on that soon.

It's hard to tell which tournament was the last "serious" one before the TLCs started again. In between the third Legacy Starleague finals, the ICCup Ladder Main Event finale and the Defiler Super Tournament a great amount of players vanished - while Scan re-appeared and started to dominate the scene. At first he dropped a couple of games while off-racing, others probably due to sickness (Defiler Super Tour), but then there was no more chance. Right now he leads the ranking of the "active" players by about 300 points. In other words, if the numbers are taken super serious, he will win 81 out 100 against trutaCz. This includes the assumption that he might switch races. However, again, if you take the number super seriously. In reality he might drop more if he off-races, and win even more if he sticks to Terran.

In before you post with a smug comment: Shortly after the Defiler Super Tournament Sziky's still top of the rankings by a few points and the rest of the foreigners would have had similar chances against the leading duo. It wasn't so easy to see if you didn't have enough experience going up against Scan yourself.

Other than that, the obvious fact remains that Sziky is basically untouchable. However, in between January 2012 and December 2014 several people made a good run for his throne, most notably eOnzErG, trutaCz and TechnicS. The least stable of all was the Spanish, as he entered a vast number of minor and fun events. TechnicS was the most consistent, but his period of leadership lasted the shortest. The Polish' dominace lasts until today, as can be extrapolated from the data on first glimpse.

Overall this paints a rather interesting picture: The Top 10 usually consists of one Protoss (Tama, Alfio, dRaW, Arcneon or dsaqwe, depending on what event was the most current [Defiler vs. TL events]), five or six Zerg (Sziky, eOn, tacz, Technics + Whistler/Julia/ZZZero/whoever) and two or three Terrans (usually Gargoyle + Pro7ect/Marwin/Heme + Terror/skzlime).

Event wise another interesting fact shows: The least "important" events are those hosted by Teamliquid. Even though attracting the best players, the TSLs usually only validated the rankings generated by Defiler and rarely helped to estimate "new" players in the data base. The only notable exception had been Julia. However, several players magically did better in TL events than in Defiler - for instance Andrey (dredredre), Sero (marginally though) or FremAN. This isn't surprising as Defiler offered more opportunities to play. As a consequence, the Defiler Series seemed to be the best portal to track the trends - be it the war between Sziky and Scan, or rising talents. Also, a number of "very good" players mostly showed in the Russian event series, but nowhere else: Ramms (until mid-2013), Gargoyle, Sea[SR], Zolotoi, Werdum (until late 2014), flisk (until early 2015).

As for "activating older and newer players" the second most important tournaments were those hosted by the Swedish Brood War Intiative. In those especially the Peruvians showed their capabilities - Dienmax, CastrO and several other somewhat notable players emerged.



[image loading]


The probably most surprising player to appear as "#1 Foreigner after Sziky" is (Wiki)gargoyle. In my wordpress blog I counted the Terran as a top 10 player in between 2010 and early 2013. However, not that much more.

His high placement in the Elo event rankings can be explained in parts. To begin with, he exclusively played in Defiler events - most serious ones (regular Defiler Tours) and some more less important ones (eOn Tour, Gaz Tours). In those, he has defeated a number of the best foreigners. The table above shows his games from the past year against players with more than 1150 points at the time. You can see how he's rather successful against top tier Zerg players, most of all people like TechnicS and eOnzErG. At the same time, Gargoyle usually had to leave early and thus (randomly) minimized the probability of being defeated in a Best of One against a relatively unskilled player.

The question remains where gargoyle should really be placed. My guess is that he would be able to maintain a 1300 rank in the current scene without much of an effort. Unless more really talented Protoss players emerge, his special match ups against Terran and Zerg will carry him on.


[image loading]



Before we finish, some interesting graphs. Everyone likes them.

[image loading]


This graph shows how much Scan improved in his absence during 2013 and most of 2014. He came back and dropped some games with his off race, then suddenly overtook anyone else - from 1500 up to 1700. Sziky however remained where he was, the rising amount of his points can be explained by the "point inflation" appearing automatically over time. Most of the foreigners, even the best ones, still struggle to reach 1400 points and maintain that level. With the exception of trutaCz nobody came close crossing 1500 points.


[image loading]


This graph shows the leading three Zerg players TechnicS, eOnzErG and trutaCz. Notice how trutaCz limps from tree to tree and is now unreachable. It also contains the graph for Marwin, because he's my favourite Terran after Largo, though he doesn't fear the duck.


[image loading]


The last graphic shows how much Elo rankings might help to identify upcoming stars. I spammed these forums a lot, but had no evidence supporting my reasoning to just feature flisk's stream. Starting with the Defiler Super Tournament his points steadily went uphill - so much that he now belongs to the elite. If you don't know him, keep an eye on this player. He really is the player to improve the most!





That'd be all for now. I can't promise I will update this project regularly - but I will try. Also:

Happy Birthday Zaraki

helpers:
everyone who updated (Wiki)Smurf/list (<3 Malkiyah)
vOddy (proof reading some of this post)
++++++++++++
TerranZerg
Profile Joined May 2013
Russian Federation145 Posts
August 21 2015 17:13 GMT
#2
No lancerx in top 20?
| FlaSh | Hyuk | ♥Bisu♥ | 1a2a3a[fOu] |
vndestiny
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Singapore3441 Posts
August 21 2015 17:26 GMT
#3
Oh damn this is really cool. Much appreciated the work you put into this. A very interesting read indeed.
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
August 21 2015 17:29 GMT
#4
Could you elaborate some more about your ELO formula?

For example:

1) Why does ELO stay the same when you lose vs an equally rated opponent?

2) Is the K-value + or negative when you win or lose a game respectively? Or what does the K-value mean?

3) Some rationale about the 400 value?




Thank you for your effort, this will be a great help in the future. This adds another level of professionalism!
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
sas.Sziky
Profile Joined October 2011
Hungary332 Posts
August 21 2015 17:32 GMT
#5
nice work gj
reps)Largo
Profile Joined October 2011
Russian Federation192 Posts
August 21 2015 17:34 GMT
#6
huge work
put it to the main page asap
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 17:39:12
August 21 2015 17:38 GMT
#7
On August 22 2015 02:29 B-royal wrote:
Could you elaborate some more about your ELO formula?

For example:

1) Why does ELO stay the same when you lose vs an equally rated opponent?

2) Is the K-value + or negative when you win or lose a game respectively? Or what does the K-value mean?

3) Some rationale about the 400 value?




Thank you for your effort, this will be a great help in the future. This adds another level of professionalism!


I honestly didn't expect anyone to try to understand the formula, it was just a gimmick copy and pasted from the Liquipedia article (and that's only part of the formula, the complete one is documented at wikipedia). Anyhow.

1) It doesn't. It stays the same if you do a Remis. Elo comes from chess, where ties are possible, unlike in Brood War for the most part. If you have equal opponents (1000 vs 1000) you will win/lose 15 pts (25 for games <30).

2) The K Value is a weighting factor. The text states somewhere that you need 30 games on record before the estimator begins to work. Hence the K. I'm not entirely sure which ones are used, would have to look it up; iirc it's K=15 for n>30 and K=30 for n=<30, with n being number of games on record. These weights were taken from battle.net (google pvpgn source, it's in SOMEWHERE)

3) the 400 Value? The point is that Elo is really an estimator using Odds (all the exponential stuff in the formula). At some point you can "assume" that you can't possibly beat a player, e.g. a first time chess player with an IQ of 80 going up against Bobby Fisher in his prime. It's also prolly used to seed players, so that only equal players meet. I used it after tournaments. The 400 value punishes good players trying to feed on low level players - they'd win literally nothing and lose up to 50 points (iirc in the b.net system). However, this rarely happened in the observed population, only Scan/Sziky playing in the very first rounds of Defiler.

See also: (Wiki)Elo rating

or even better, go ask itsjustatank, he's always happy to write an essay about why Elo sucks. So does Birdie.
Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 17:43:28
August 21 2015 17:41 GMT
#8
You should reduce your formula to the most simplified form. The denominator of the division is unnecessarily complex.

10(x/400) = x/40

You can also simplify it further by doing..

1/ x/40 = 40/x

Nice work on the ELO though, keep it up ~ I hope this math advice helps with simplifying the process.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
August 21 2015 19:03 GMT
#9
this is some great work, i salute you! given the recent drama about Scan it is nice to see a data analysis that can at least indicate, that he, indeed has outclassed the foreign players in recent times.
Broodwar for life!
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
August 21 2015 19:19 GMT
#10
On August 22 2015 02:13 TerranZerg wrote:
No lancerx in top 20?


IMO the #1 ranked protoss if none left would have probably been Dewalt as he did the best in defiler tours. Lancer loses as much as he wins in these and that's why his ELO doesn't jump.
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
August 21 2015 19:31 GMT
#11
Cool stuff! Is there any way to view a full list of elo ranked players?
juvenal
Profile Joined July 2013
2448 Posts
August 21 2015 19:59 GMT
#12
On August 22 2015 02:41 Eywa- wrote:
You should reduce your formula to the most simplified form. The denominator of the division is unnecessarily complex.

10(x/400) = x/40

You can also simplify it further by doing..

1/ x/40 = 40/x

Nice work on the ELO though, keep it up ~ I hope this math advice helps with simplifying the process.

those are powers what you could do is this:
[image loading]
Michael Probu
Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
August 21 2015 20:08 GMT
#13
On August 22 2015 04:59 juvenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2015 02:41 Eywa- wrote:
You should reduce your formula to the most simplified form. The denominator of the division is unnecessarily complex.

10(x/400) = x/40

You can also simplify it further by doing..

1/ x/40 = 40/x

Nice work on the ELO though, keep it up ~ I hope this math advice helps with simplifying the process.

those are powers what you could do is this:
[image loading]

That actually makes much more sense, I couldn't understand how the formula worked as a multiplication it wasn't clear to me when looking at it due to the layout.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
August 21 2015 21:12 GMT
#14
On August 22 2015 04:31 Atom[Bomb] wrote:
Cool stuff! Is there any way to view a full list of elo ranked players?


there are links right under the top 10 tables.
art_of_turtle
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States1202 Posts
August 21 2015 22:41 GMT
#15
anyone notice that Greenelve has a higher ELO than themarine?
Flash should fear Sacsri
LRM)TechnicS
Profile Joined May 2008
Bulgaria1565 Posts
August 21 2015 22:42 GMT
#16
On August 22 2015 02:26 vndestiny wrote:
Oh damn this is really cool. Much appreciated the work you put into this. A very interesting read indeed.


+1

Thx, Gecko
Enjoy the game
Glioburd
Profile Joined April 2008
France1911 Posts
August 22 2015 08:10 GMT
#17
Nice work, interesting to read, as usual
"You should hate loosing, but you should never fear defeat." NaDa.
deus_073
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Romania187 Posts
August 22 2015 11:16 GMT
#18
This is great work! Highly appreciated.
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2041 Posts
August 22 2015 13:22 GMT
#19
Great work! Although I participated in various events and I'm not even on the list.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
August 23 2015 07:46 GMT
#20
On August 22 2015 22:22 kogeT wrote:
Great work! Although I participated in various events and I'm not even on the list.



Player Rating Win Lose % Games Total

koget 1043 14 11 0,56 25


You're in the database, just like about 800 other players. I just selected the ones with >20 games. Must have missed you in the process.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 31m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ForJumy 207
TKL 198
BRAT_OK 55
Harstem 43
UpATreeSC 41
MindelVK 7
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 29320
Calm 3656
Bisu 1141
Jaedong 550
GuemChi 529
BeSt 383
Mini 267
actioN 184
ggaemo 108
Shuttle 108
[ Show more ]
Hyuk 91
Hyun 75
Backho 49
Shinee 45
JYJ 41
Hm[arnc] 31
Yoon 30
Free 27
scan(afreeca) 27
IntoTheRainbow 21
910 19
Sacsri 17
ivOry 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 10
Rock 7
HiyA 6
Dota 2
qojqva1948
Dendi622
XcaliburYe75
Counter-Strike
fl0m1395
oskar154
ptr_tv105
adren_tv96
Other Games
gofns9527
Grubby2922
FrodaN1683
B2W.Neo1221
hiko754
Beastyqt378
Liquid`VortiX177
ArmadaUGS81
Mew2King67
Trikslyr41
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 75
• poizon28 44
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 47
• FirePhoenix15
• Michael_bg 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV355
League of Legends
• TFBlade1847
• Stunt648
• Shiphtur425
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 31m
The PondCast
16h 31m
WardiTV Invitational
18h 31m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
RongYI Cup
2 days
herO vs Maru
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-03
HSC XXVIII
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W7
Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.