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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On January 13 2007 00:18 DarK]N[exuS wrote: Nobody doubts that testie can beat pretty much anyone in the BGH community 1:1 on low money. I think Testie can take any of them 1:1 on BGH too. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
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DarK]N[exuS
China1441 Posts
On January 13 2007 01:00 Aphelion02 wrote: I think Testie can take any of them 1:1 on BGH too. Ok. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
pretty sure, given a week, testie would either be the best or one of the top at 1v1 bgh. Don't get me wrong, these guys are good at bgh, and they are good at the basics, but I think almost any top foriegner could pick up bgh and be at least on the same level. Its like playing chess and then switching to checkers. (I'm not trying to say bgh is as easy as checkers btw;o) | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 13 2007 01:00 Aphelion02 wrote: I think Testie can take any of them 1:1 on BGH too. I heard testie said he thinks koolam would roll over him on BGH. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
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DarK]N[exuS
China1441 Posts
On January 13 2007 01:37 OverTheUnder wrote: pretty sure, given a week, testie would either be the best or one of the top at 1v1 bgh. Don't get me wrong, these guys are good at bgh, and they are good at the basics, but I think almost any top foriegner could pick up bgh and be at least on the same level. Its like playing chess and then switching to checkers. (I'm not trying to say bgh is as easy as checkers btw;o) I wasn't being sarcastic. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 13 2007 01:37 OverTheUnder wrote: pretty sure, given a week, testie would either be the best or one of the top at 1v1 bgh. Don't get me wrong, these guys are good at bgh, and they are good at the basics, but I think almost any top foriegner could pick up bgh and be at least on the same level. Its like playing chess and then switching to checkers. (I'm not trying to say bgh is as easy as checkers btw;o) I think testie has the potential to be one of the best 1v1 BGH players, but it will definitely take more than one week of practice. And I strongly disagree with the notion that "any top foriegner could pick up BGH and be at least on the same level". Why do you make such an assumption? Do you think BGH players are inherently stupid or disabled or something that even with 9 years of gaming, a low player can beat them with a week of practice? Just because they choose to play BGH doesn't mean they have less gaming potential. Your example about chess and checkers doesn't support your opinion. Although chess is indeed a more complex game, it is nothing like checkers. If you were talking about a snooker player switching to pool I could understand him taking very little time to get good. You said: "they are good at the basics". If by basics you mean micro, macro and multi tasking, then yes, top BGH players are insanely good at that. Since we have agreed that they are good at these three, we are left only with timing and strategy. Timing, of course, comes with experience, and top BGH players have 9 years of gaming. That leaves strategy. How will the fact that low maps are more strategically driven help a low player playing on BGH? Whats he going to do, fac port in TvP BGH? He'll get raped in five minutes. These guys have been playing BGH for years, and they have every viable strategy worked out. Not only that, they execute it with perfection. Being familiar with low map strategies doesn't mean anything. Every single viable strategy on LT has been worked out because its such an old map. BGH is not only as old as LT, it is also far simpler. How can we possible assume that after 9 years of playing BGH, there remains a viable build that they haven't discovered? By the way, testie/mondragon played and lost a single 2v2 vs koolam/(someone). I know neither their races nor the map. I'm not here to defend BGH players or to argue they are superior in any way, and I fully support the prevalent opinion that low maps ask more of the player. But lets not under estimate them unfairly, shall we? | ||
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ocoini
648 Posts
 But.. hey, anyways.. I lost some BGH 3v3/4v4 yesterday.. Game is diffrent - they are ALL turtles? Everyone seems content to build up huge force befor doing ANYTHING.. ;p. No matter what race they are it feels like playing a turtle terran all the time.. | ||
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
The BGH elite have insanely good zealot/goon micro (and the other aspects of their game are very solid too), and they probably have had about 4x more practice at it than testie. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
Also, I do believe that testie has the potential to become one of if not the best BGH player, but I personally feel it will take more than a week of practice. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 13 2007 02:38 ocoini wrote: I refuse to belive that someone would have been playing BGH for 9 years..!! someone save them...!!! But.. hey, anyways.. I lost some BGH 3v3/4v4 yesterday.. Game is diffrent - they are ALL turtles? Everyone seems content to build up huge force befor doing ANYTHING.. ;p. No matter what race they are it feels like playing a turtle terran all the time..Prepare for your ego to be shatterred. If they were turtling hardcore till they had a strong army, they were either A) newbs or semi newbs or B) good players fucking around. When good teams face off, the game is usually very fast paced and furious, and often the advantages gained during early game decide the outcome. Did you join a random game, or were your allies your friends? | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
I think a bigger factor, however, is how much the top BGHers have been introduced to progaming, which is really the major reason why the SC skill level has evolved so much. From what I read of their forum, their top members are very familiar with the korean scene, and that doesn't bode well for us in this coming tourny. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 13 2007 02:58 Aphelion02 wrote: Actually, I think just playing one map can stunt your strategy, even for that map. All these greedy macro oriented builds these days (FD Terran, 14 CC), they were almost never done during the days when everyone played LT, yet other macro maps introduced their possiblities and these can be applied to the older maps as well. I think a bigger factor, however, is how much the top BGHers have been introduced to progaming, which is really the major reason why the SC skill level has evolved so much. From what I read of their forum, their top members are very familiar with the korean scene, and that doesn't bode well for us in this coming tourny. The chances that after 9 years of play there still remains undiscovered a strong, viable strategy for a map as simple as BGH are very, very, very, very slim. The BGH community isn't completely unaware of the low community. A lot of them watch pro reps, play low maps, and follow the OSL and MSL. Every new strategy they have seen, has been tried and tested on BGH, just like we learn strategies from better players. They have also been intuitive and tried strategies they themselves come up with, just as we do. How can the assumption that the low community has worked out several dozen strategies and plays for each map they've been exposed to, but the BGH community STILL hasn't exposed all the viable builds on BGH, be a fair analysis? New strategies evolving in the low community have often had a lot to do with the layout of new maps. It isn't so in the BGH community. There is only one map, and it has been drained dry. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
On January 13 2007 02:52 Gandalf wrote: I think a week is too little. You forget that top BGH players have played protoss and PvP far more then testie (since his being random means he plays all 9 match ups). Saying that testi'es PvP is better than any top BGHers PvP implies he is more "talented" than them. How can we make this assumption? Just because they play a different, less complicated map doesn't mean they're any less skilled. The BGH elite have insanely good zealot/goon micro (and the other aspects of their game are very solid too), and they probably have had about 4x more practice at it than testie. Oh c'mon now Chris. Testie is a great player, and could EASILY get to top "Bgh" status within a week. Do you really think it would be so difficult for him to adapt? All he needs to "learn" is at exactly what point to add the 3rd and 4th and so on gateway. I bet his micro is as good if not better than the best bghers 1v1 players, whoever they may be.. since there aren't that many. All 1v1 BGH = is zealot micro early game, then late game goon production. The only difficult parts are knowing when to add gates, the constant micro/macro from 2-6 gates (which shouldn't be a problem for one of the best players) and transitioning to goons/dt tech. You make it sound like its the most difficult thing to learn for a ridiculously good player already. | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 13 2007 03:21 BalloonFight wrote: Oh c'mon now Chris. Testie is a great player, and could EASILY get to top "Bgh" status within a week. Do you really think it would be so difficult for him to adapt? All he needs to "learn" is at exactly what point to add the 3rd and 4th and so on gateway. I bet his micro is as good if not better than the best bghers 1v1 players, whoever they may be.. since there aren't that many. All 1v1 BGH = is zealot micro early game, then late game goon production. The only difficult parts are knowing when to add gates, the constant micro/macro from 2-6 gates (which shouldn't be a problem for one of the best players) and transitioning to goons/dt tech. You make it sound like its the most difficult thing to learn for a ridiculously good player already. You've misinterpreted my post completely. I don't know why you're arguing about assimilating BGH strategies. I've clearly stated several times that strategy-wise BGH is a shallow map. Testie would need perhaps a day to deconstruct and assimilate all viable builds. Its easy as hell to learn BGH strategy, and I've said that repeatedly, so you've drawn a fallacious conclusion and have tried to counter it. Learning BGH BO's and when to add gates is easy as shit, so I don't quite get what you're trying to prove by hammering it in. Testies mid and late game micro might be better than BGH players, but I wouldn't be so sure about early game micro. Players like koolam have very, very solid micro with zealots and goons, and in a PvP on BGH, zealots and goons and early game play a major role. Its also hard to accurately assess micro and macro by watching replays, unless its BoxeR or oov or someone like that and the micro is some uber fancy shit. But when you play them, you realize the strength and the skill. I know this by personal experience. I've seen testie max out in 14 minutes and wondered, what is so awesome about that? I've done it in less! And I've never seen a testie rep where he did some crazy control move that left me wowed. But when I played him a few times, I was completely blown away. There was this one game where Pickle and I managed to kill of testie's ally in a 2;2 and it was rendered a 1v2. Testie was a two base toss, pickle was a THREE base toss, I was a two base zerg. Thats 5 bases to 2. But when we met in our first big battle, it was - a draw. We all lost all our units. Testie had more mass than pickle, and his micro and storms were picture perfect. (Five bases meant we recovered faster so we did win) Players like koolam have had 9 years of predominantly protoss practice. Testie, on the other hand, is a random player, which means roughly a third of his matches have given him protoss over the same amount of time. The OBVIOUS conclusion is that the ONLY way testie can have better control is IF he has GREATER INNATE TALENT. I fully agree that this is ENTIRELY possible, but you must also admit the possibility that it is NOT, and that koolam might actually have greater technical potential. Or are you going to state that there is no way in hell koolam could have better zealot/goon micro because testie is testie and is a low map player? I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just trying to make everyone aware of the facts and all the possibilities. Or at least of what I feel is a just analysis. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 13 2007 03:30 hasuwar wrote: you guys are crazy or stupid to think testie wouldn't win vs bghers.. from what it looks like, he plays bgh racewars all the time on west, or the twot imes i've went there and knows how to play bgh. aint hard to adapt to spending money faster, and unless a bgher is an ex low min player with good macro, i think it'll be over. I used to play east bgh 2v2s when i was bored, and they could never macro while fighting as well as me, and would always lose to macro eventually :O Testie/daze lost 1-3 to BGHers. Testie/idra won 4-3. Testie/mondi lost 0-1. Nobody's saying they cant win, only that it wont be a rout. | ||
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