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On January 13 2007 03:30 hasuwar wrote:
you guys are crazy or stupid to think testie wouldn't win vs bghers.. from what it looks like, he plays bgh racewars all the time on west, or the twot imes i've went there and knows how to play bgh. aint hard to adapt to spending money faster, and unless a bgher is an ex low min player with good macro, i think it'll be over. I used to play east bgh 2v2s when i was bored, and they could never macro while fighting as well as me, and would always lose to macro eventually :O
Uhh if they couldn't "macro while fighting" they were newbs or semi newbs. Decent BGH players can multitask quite well, whereas top tier players are almost infallible in this respect.
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On January 13 2007 03:39 Gandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2007 03:30 hasuwar wrote:
you guys are crazy or stupid to think testie wouldn't win vs bghers.. from what it looks like, he plays bgh racewars all the time on west, or the twot imes i've went there and knows how to play bgh. aint hard to adapt to spending money faster, and unless a bgher is an ex low min player with good macro, i think it'll be over. I used to play east bgh 2v2s when i was bored, and they could never macro while fighting as well as me, and would always lose to macro eventually :O Testie/daze lost 1-3 to BGHers. Testie/idra won 4-3. Testie/mondi lost 0-1. Nobody's saying they cant win, only that it wont be a rout.
me/testie/mondi won 4-0 or 5-0, i dont think testie/mondi ever 2v2ed them
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The guys you beat were'nt hDn. They were babotoss/vivaldi and some other guys.
Testie himself said him and mondi lost a 2;2 to koolam/someone.
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You guys won 5-0 btw, not 4-0.
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Not to say babotoss/vivaldi aren't very good, but they're not hDn level.
And I'm not even saying you guys cant 5-0 hDn. Its definitely possible, but scorelines of 4-1, 3-2, 2-3, 1-4 and 5-0 are also possible, even if (much) less so.
I'm only trying to refute the "BGHers have no chance in hell" opinion (on BGH).
And for the record, I think testie would beat koolam 5-0 or maybe 4-1 (assuming a "lucky" win or mistakes on testie's part or a surprising build or something blah blah) on low maps. Though I doubt they'd be 10 minute rapes.
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umm lemme check exactly who you played....
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On January 13 2007 03:38 Gandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2007 03:21 BalloonFight wrote:On January 13 2007 02:52 Gandalf wrote:
I think a week is too little. You forget that top BGH players have played protoss and PvP far more then testie (since his being random means he plays all 9 match ups). Saying that testi'es PvP is better than any top BGHers PvP implies he is more "talented" than them. How can we make this assumption? Just because they play a different, less complicated map doesn't mean they're any less skilled.
The BGH elite have insanely good zealot/goon micro (and the other aspects of their game are very solid too), and they probably have had about 4x more practice at it than testie. Oh c'mon now Chris. Testie is a great player, and could EASILY get to top "Bgh" status within a week. Do you really think it would be so difficult for him to adapt? All he needs to "learn" is at exactly what point to add the 3rd and 4th and so on gateway. I bet his micro is as good if not better than the best bghers 1v1 players, whoever they may be.. since there aren't that many. All 1v1 BGH = is zealot micro early game, then late game goon production. The only difficult parts are knowing when to add gates, the constant micro/macro from 2-6 gates (which shouldn't be a problem for one of the best players) and transitioning to goons/dt tech. You make it sound like its the most difficult thing to learn for a ridiculously good player already. You've misinterpreted my post completely. I don't know why you're arguing about assimilating BGH strategies. I've clearly stated several times that strategy-wise BGH is a shallow map. Testie would need perhaps a day to deconstruct and assimilate all viable builds. Its easy as hell to learn BGH strategy, and I've said that repeatedly, so you've drawn a fallacious conclusion and have tried to counter it. Learning BGH BO's and when to add gates is easy as shit, so I don't quite get what you're trying to prove by hammering it in. Testies mid and late game micro might be better than BGH players, but I wouldn't be so sure about early game micro. Players like koolam have very, very solid micro with zealots and goons, and in a PvP on BGH, zealots and goons and early game play a major role. Its also hard to accurately assess micro and macro by watching replays, unless its BoxeR or oov or someone like that and the micro is some uber fancy shit. But when you play them, you realize the strength and the skill. I know this by personal experience. I've seen testie max out in 14 minutes and wondered, what is so awesome about that? I've done it in less! And I've never seen a testie rep where he did some crazy control move that left me wowed. But when I played him a few times, I was completely blown away. There was this one game where Pickle and I managed to kill of testie's ally in a 2;2 and it was rendered a 1v2. Testie was a two base toss, pickle was a THREE base toss, I was a two base zerg. Thats 5 bases to 2. But when we met in our first big battle, it was - a draw. We all lost all our units. Testie had more mass than pickle, and his micro and storms were picture perfect. (Five bases meant we recovered faster so we did win) Players like koolam have had 9 years of predominantly protoss practice. Testie, on the other hand, is a random player, which means roughly a third of his matches have given him protoss over the same amount of time. The OBVIOUS conclusion is that the ONLY way testie can have better control is IF he has GREATER INNATE TALENT. I fully agree that this is ENTIRELY possible, but you must also admit the possibility that it is NOT, and that koolam might actually have greater technical potential. Or are you going to state that there is no way in hell koolam could have better zealot/goon micro because testie is testie and is a low map player? I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just trying to make everyone aware of the facts and all the possibilities. Or at least of what I feel is a just analysis.
Why write so much? Testie is one of the most talented SC players ever. He is good enough to win against top korean players so there is a good chance he will win against top BGH players.
Other than that we'll have to wait and see..
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Braavos36399 Posts
er isnt this going to be between normal forum members, not the elite? in that case why is everyone talking about if testie would win on bgh
all its going to do is expose how bad normal forum members of TL are on bgh and how bad their forum members are on low
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On January 13 2007 03:38 Gandalf wrote:
Players like koolam have had 9 years of predominantly protoss practice. Testie, on the other hand, is a random player, which means roughly a third of his matches have given him protoss over the same amount of time. The OBVIOUS conclusion is that the ONLY way testie can have better control is IF he has GREATER INNATE TALENT. I fully agree that this is ENTIRELY possible, but you must also admit the possibility that it is NOT, and that koolam might actually have greater technical potential. Or are you going to state that there is no way in hell koolam could have better zealot/goon micro because testie is testie and is a low map player?
low maps generally lead to more micro and more different kinds of micro meaning that he has more experience with unit control in general, but i dont think i ever played koolam so i dont really know how they compare.
those games were fun, we should play more of them.
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On January 13 2007 05:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
er isnt this going to be between normal forum members, not the elite? in that case why is everyone talking about if testie would win on bgh
all its going to do is expose how bad normal forum members of TL are on bgh and how bad their forum members are on low
just from glancing over the site it seems like theirs is more of a small community site whereas tl.net draws a far wider range of people, their average forum member is gonna be closer to their best in skill than tl's i think.
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On January 13 2007 02:01 Gandalf wrote:
I'm not here to defend BGH players or to argue they are superior in any way
i laughed out loud
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Braavos36399 Posts
gandalf, i think we CAN safely assume that the top low money guys are more talented than the BGH guys.
we can all pretty much agree that the main advantage the top BGH players have is that they've played the map more than testie or mondragon or whoever.
if testie and mondragon played BGH as much (or even 1/2 as much) as the BGH guys did, even you said that they'd win. that translates to more talent.
i mean take it to the extreme, if we have Nada and Savior playing BGH, less than a dozen games and they'd be the best BGH players. yes it'd take longer than the top foreigners (less talent) but the potential is still there.
regardless thats not what this showmatch is about.
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Are there going to be any rules on postcount/time joined ect to play? I assume we want "known regulars" to play.
Not that I'm brave enough to play due to being rusty as hell.
The replays I've seen (looking for pimpest plays) were of just average PvP hunters skill compared to korean lowhunters tosswars kor-asia style. I assueme that if it was koolam who won vs fayth, then that guy can play really good vs top kor teamplay teams. I assume that there are other players on his level too.
I do want to see him play even if he want really a part of their community ect. I mean we have players better than fayth that could play him. It's just for fun anyways.
Did not think this post fully through coz my nose started to bleed.
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The main thing is, I can't figure out why BGHers who have even been exposed to low money would stick with BGH. Is it cause its easier to find games, playing with a team, or afraid of being a noob at low money and losing their status as elite players in their own realms? That seems like picking the blue pill to me.
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On January 13 2007 06:19 Aphelion02 wrote:
The main thing is, I can't figure out why BGHers who have even been exposed to low money would stick with BGH. Is it cause its easier to find games, playing with a team, or afraid of being a noob at low money and losing their status as elite players in their own realms? That seems like picking the blue pill to me.
i played alot of BGH with the european BGH community (mainly obsed  )
from what i can say it's not "taking the blue pill". its just BGH is less of a challenge to have fun but skilled games when you don't have 3+ hours a day to spend on BW.
being even decent on low money takes you an awful lot of time where you have no/very little fun while playing, especially when you have no RL friends to play with you or at least some online buddies.
The more skilled people of the european community even play hunters or play on the asian b.net. (don't flame me about that, it does make a difference!)
They enjoy BW just like all the other players, from the comp stompers to the fa$te$t guys to UMS players. we all play the same game, and everybody enjoys it just the way he is most comfortable with.
i for my part don't even play BW actively anymore, but i enjoy theorycrafting as much as watching replays/oberserving or the watching MSL/OSL. not a blue pill, either. just the way i do it.
edit: corrected the funniest typo that ever happened to me.
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...
The scores are wrong on BGH..
Testie / Daze lost 3-4 didn't we?
Testie / Idra won I can't remember.
Testie / Mondragon / Idra went 5-0 (but Kural aka Koolam did not play)
Testie / Kural are 17-0 vs BGHers. He's an amazing ally. And he will be difficult to beat on BGH & possibly low.
He's quite talented. I really like how his units are always moving, and killing peoples at a greater rate. He's used to constant warfare with his units. I'm sure with enough practice, and if he were a low player, he'd still be known.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On January 13 2007 05:44 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2007 05:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
er isnt this going to be between normal forum members, not the elite? in that case why is everyone talking about if testie would win on bgh
all its going to do is expose how bad normal forum members of TL are on bgh and how bad their forum members are on low just from glancing over the site it seems like theirs is more of a small community site whereas tl.net draws a far wider range of people, their average forum member is gonna be closer to their best in skill than tl's i think.
Agreed. My money is on BGHers.com . In addition to your point, they specialize on BGH and are going to have much better timing and knowledge of strategies on that map than almost anyone here (the only exception I can think of is Testie).
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Testie/Kural is a strong team, 0-3 vs them. GG's we play again ;P
Also, most of you guys who are posting here negatively about the map BGH and its players, you guys seemed to relate strongly to public games. I mean come on, are the public 1v1 games any good too? You guys all play in separate channels and make a separate private room for 1v1 right? Thats exactly what us, at BGHers.com do too. Its just too general for you guys to describe us like that. I, too was a low money map player, always so proud about how much wins I can settle in public games. Until you start playing inhouses with the known BGH players, you will learn more about the map. Its just not about build order, micro, and macro, its more in depths of strategy, teamwork, timing too. I'm sure you guys have WOWed over the p wars done in Brood War Kor-Asia of Asia server. It's exactly like that, the difference that stands is a slight change in build order because of the resources gained from Hunters and BGH.
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Gandalf, are you just making up the scores on the past TL games on BGH? Testie and Idra, both who played the matches, have refuted your claims. It's like you're just pulling the scores out your ass the whole time to make your argument. If you don't know what the scores were, don't mention what they were, it's very disingenious, especially when you try to use it to support your argument.
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Testie should teach koolam the ropes of low 
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EPT
