Map (2)Queensbridge - Page 2

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traceurling

United States1240 Posts

January 18 2014 02:57 GMT

#21

Yeah by map stats I was curious about ZvP, PvT, and TvZ win %

Peeano

Netherlands5198 Posts

January 18 2014 21:16 GMT

#22

On January 18 2014 11:08 SynC[gm] wrote:
Maybe he just made up some random stats as an example? And then directed FS map stats as a prime example?

Not 100% sure, I'm curious as well, lol.

Bingo; I just made them up as an example.

And I'm glad to see vOdToasT has finally learned how to use TLPD.
I linked to the BW (Korea) FS stats, because I think it gives a more legit reading of the map than BW (SOSPA) map stats.
Here, FS - that the community considers to be the most balanced map - shows minor racial imba that is pretty much considered a fact.

SynC[gm]

United States3127 Posts

January 21 2014 01:17 GMT

#23

Why does the obs version only have 6 slots in total? 2 player slots and 4 observers slots?

Jukado

805 Posts

January 24 2014 17:37 GMT

#24

That was just for the testing phase, so that there was less chance of laggers and to get games going faster. Ive completely finished the map now though so here is the end result.

Version 1.0

[image loading]

My map stats comment earlier was meant to be a joke

I havent been collecting map stats data.

ErrantKnight

Switzerland186 Posts

January 24 2014 18:21 GMT

#25

The main is huge ! I feel I'll need a lot of turrets in TvP, nice job for the rest I'll try to convince a couple friends to play on this map.

KameZerg

Sweden1767 Posts

January 24 2014 20:21 GMT

#26

Gonna play this map? I suggest you pick Terran so you can go mech.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

January 25 2014 01:51 GMT

#27

On January 25 2014 03:21 ErrantKnight wrote:
The main is huge ! I feel I'll need a lot of turrets in TvP, nice job for the rest I'll try to convince a couple friends to play on this map.

Having big mains in a two spawn map is a good thing though, given that you cannot take another main to gain more macro space...

Grobyc

Canada18410 Posts

January 25 2014 02:10 GMT

#28

On January 25 2014 10:51 Freakling wrote:

Show nested quote +

Having big mains in a two spawn map is a good thing though, given that you cannot take another main to gain more macro space...

Yeah this is true. There's pretty much no other feasible place to build production on the map other than your main.

SynC[gm]

United States3127 Posts

January 25 2014 04:18 GMT

#29

Is the download link in OP the updated version of the map?

Never mind, found out by downloading, lol.

Jukado

805 Posts

January 30 2014 18:04 GMT

#30

Its true that 2 player maps generally have only 1 macro area so the mains have to be bigger than normal.

That said, depending how you measure it, the mains on this map are 26/28 wide and 27 tiles high. When you compare to Neo Ground Zero, New Sniper Ridge, Neo Jade and other modern maps then this map is not actually out of the ordinary. And those are all 4 player maps!
For example New Sniper Ridge is a whopping 37 high and 26 wide or 34 wide and 27 high depending on spawns.
Jade is 28 wide and 28 high, and Ground Zero is 26 high 32 wide.
Furthermore, New Sniper Ridge and Ground Zero have large naturals whereas the nats on Queensbridge are small.
Jade has low ground mains and has no unwalkable buffer zone around the edge of its mains. This makes certain drop timings much more powerful for the attacker.
So overall, what Im saying is that Queensbridge strikes a balance between older and newer maps. It has slightly larger mains than FS for example but they are smaller than the above 3 maps. Queensbridge also has a good air buffer around it and you can build turrets on the path between the nat and the 3rd.
The main and natural on Queensbridge work together to;
1. Adhere to the 5 turret rule
2. Allow plenty of production buildings for modern styles and
3. Not permit any timings to be more powerful than they are on other maps.

Its a case of the wolf is fed, and the sheep is not dead (and they both have cake and ate it too). Yay

Another consideration is how many air routes in. This map has corner mains so the surface area is limited unlike Destination for instance. Queensbridge does have a very tiny air route in through the natural which can allow an observer or a shuttle to sneak into the main but only if there isnt a floating building giving highground vision for the turrets at the nat. It also allows for slightly stronger muta harrass too etc. I dont normally include this feature but I think it works nicely here. You might want to consider putting an extra turret in the main near the ramp though like how some do on FS.

Hmm what else,
There is infact space for 8 gateways comfortably at the corner expos if one so desired. You could always make your starports there if you wanted to set up a carrier lategame strategy too. The corner expansions are quite generous in terms of building space.
In the interests of full disclosure, one imbalance of the map is build space at the naturals for armouries. The top right nat can fit 2 armouries but the bottom left nat cant. Its minor and I wanted to have it equal, especially as recalls could be quite common on this map, but other more important things took priority in the end. Its conceivable that a game in 1000 will be decided on this so apologies in advance.

Just for fun, sometimes its nice to look at maps side by side so lets include a few:

Blue Storm
+ Show Spoiler +

Matchpoint
+ Show Spoiler +

Polaris Rhapsody
+ Show Spoiler +

Benzene
+ Show Spoiler +

New Heart Break Ridge
+ Show Spoiler +

New Bloody Ridge
+ Show Spoiler +

Odd Eye 3
+ Show Spoiler +

Queensbridge
[image loading]

New Sniper Ridge
+ Show Spoiler +

Neo Ground Zero
+ Show Spoiler +

Neo Jade
+ Show Spoiler +

Destination
+ Show Spoiler +

Monte Christo
+ Show Spoiler +

Alternative
+ Show Spoiler +

Neo Chain Reaction
+ Show Spoiler +

Phyanketto

United States601 Posts

January 30 2014 21:03 GMT

#31

This looks like a really hard map for terran, considering the wide open natural, large space behind natural mins for mutas and reavers to hang out, and most importantly, large unbuildable terrain. Has it been tested a lot?

skzlime

Hungary462 Posts

January 31 2014 22:38 GMT

#32

it looks kinda bad for tvp midgame, because terran has trouble getting a 3rd base and defending the front at the same time. either the wide entrances to the naturals should be buildable for supply meatshield or the ramp at the 3rd needs to be narrower (the former i feel a LOT more important). however, once terran can secure 3 bases it becomes very easy to get a 4th, and a 200/200 ground protoss has nowhere to attack effectively, but i don't think the games will ever get to that point ^^
i imagine terrans would do a lot of 2base pushes because dropship play seems easy to deflect, and you can also set up a very strong high ground position above/below the protoss 3rd if he gets it too soon. i think 2 base arbiter on 7 gateways before 3rd nex is nigh unbeatable on this map currently.

tvz seems fairly balanced, but a little terran favored. terran needs more turrets at the natural, but should be fine vs mutas. can the bridges to the corner expos be made longer? that would make it a better 3rd location for zerg, which is easier to defend vs the 3tank1vessel push. i actually think a 3base mech switch into quick 4th gas would be quite strong (compact base layout and guaranteed easy-to-push zerg 4th), but good mine positioning during the transition for map awareness is harder than usual because of many possible attack paths in the midgame.

hacklebeast

United States5090 Posts

February 01 2014 16:42 GMT

#33

Original Message From CardinalAllin:
Thankyou very much for the detailed replay. Really appreciate it.
If you feel that you would be happy posting this reply into the thread itself, then that would be great but I dont want to pressure you to do so at all. Its totally up to you.
But again, thanks for posting this detailed impressions, its lovely for me.

Original Message From hacklebeast:
I'm probably not the right person to ask about it, but I'll give it a shot.

-overall I like it

-you should be able to build a pylon wall at the third with 3/4 pylons. It kind of looks like you cant, but i cant tell just from the pic.

-I think people are going to play this map wrong. Most maps split left/right, so people are inclined to lean towards that, but on this map it is a lot better to split up/down.

-if you think about it as a up down split, then the map is very constrictive in the mid. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it will make lat game pvp/pvz very interesting, but make late game tvp/tvt a grind.

-I would make the wall at the 3/9 oclock bases touch the geyser. This will take away some room to put turrets/mines to allow dropships/arbiters to have a chance to break up the stalemate mid.

-the corner expos are big enough that you can land units with drop/shuttle/overlord, and they would not be seen until after they all unload. Maps tend to not do this on corner expos, but I'm ok with encouraging drop play.

-make sure that a gateway is ling tight with the cliff at the topside natural on the top of the gateway. If it isn't, then you have to block the hole with a probe, or start the wall from the bottom. Either way, bot has a positional advantage.

hope it helps.

hacklebeast

Show nested quote +

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

February 01 2014 17:02 GMT

#34

On February 02 2014 01:42 hacklebeast wrote:
-make sure that a gateway is ling tight with the cliff at the topside natural on the top of the gateway. If it isn't, then you have to block the hole with a probe, or start the wall from the bottom. Either way, bot has a positional advantage.

Gateways are generally not tight at the top. They are tight at the right against a mineral patch/"full" cliff, though, so you can kind of make them tight at the top by placing some unwalkable tile next to the top right corner, like I did in one of my older maps:
[image loading]

This is of course pretty restricitve, because players need to place their Gate at the exact right spot to make it tight.

The better and much more flexible way to make any building tight against any cliff is by using neutral eggs/lurker eggs to bridge the gap (like I did on Oxide, for example; It's also done on (4)Fortress and (4)Golden Cross to some extend, but at least on Golden Cross the eggs are not really placed to close the gap...).

hacklebeast

United States5090 Posts

February 01 2014 17:37 GMT

#35

egg works. I didn't know if there were any terrain objects with negative walling values. I just want to avoid lings having to run by 215 degrees of cannon at one base, and only 45 degrees at the other (if that makes sense).

Jukado

805 Posts

April 16 2014 22:44 GMT

#36

Version 1.1
-Added backdoor expansions in corners (the building cannot be sieged from outside but the mineral workers can be)
-Made central hills larger with wider ramps
-Remixed naturals
-More buildable space outside naturals
-More unit blocking doodads (and cabbages)
-More buildable space at 3/9
-Tweaks to walling the corner expos

The natural choke is 6 tiles but can be made wider by killing the 3 eggs. There are unbuildable tiles which prevent terran from being able to wall the choke with 1 rax 2 depot.
Protoss can wall this choke with 3 pylons though.

Lots of pics in the spoiler below
+ Show Spoiler +