EPTBW General Discussion - Page 270
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On February 10 2019 22:42 ne4aJIb wrote: LancerX I vote for funny! | ||
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
top PvT ELO peaks of all time: jangbi - 2260 stork - 2259 bisu - 2255 best - 2218 nal_ra - 2214 snow - 2206 kingdom - 2201 reach - 2199 kal - 2195 free - 2194 so jangbi literally by 1 point haha. Although if you look at records stork has a much better winning percentage (66% for stork, 59% for jangbi) since jangbi had a huge slump in between the lost saga MSL and the jinair OSL. Best was/is great, but never got results like jangbi/stork.bisu did. In terms of current best PvTer, probably best or snow right? Rain is great too but didn't look too hot losing 2 Bo5s against sharp in the last couple months. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
On February 11 2019 05:19 Alpha-NP- wrote: I don’t know who is better but I know Best is an absolute PvT monster. Sick macro and he has a cool style as well. I’ve seen him using Dark Archons a lot recently in PvT against Science Vessels to Feedback them. He is very entertaining to watch. I probably haven't seen as many games as needed but it seems like best and snow would both be favored against any non-flash terran. But Snow probably has a better chance against flash because he's more aggressive and adaptable, whereas best mostly wants to out-macro his opponent ever game but he can't usually out-macro flash. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On February 08 2019 22:10 AntiHack wrote: Apparently APEX is killing OW so the Asmongold comment was a well rounded curse xD Edit: and in this very moment sc1 have more viewers then OW ahahah xD And killing Fortnite too (thanks god) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7088 Posts
im inlove with this game too.so maybe rip bw. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On February 11 2019 23:28 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im inlove with this game too.so maybe rip bw. Luckily rts don't get much competition this days ;D | ||
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
Looks like the layoffs only affected NA staff and that the SC esports division took a big hit :\ Not sure how it will affect SCR, looks like the dev team on it is still there? And all the esports stuff around it are based in Korea I think which seems unaffected by the layoffs for now? Although even if the entire SCR korean esports division was cut, wouldn't the ASL still run just fine as they're not affiliated? But the KSL would probably die. But for english SCR viewers a side-effect would be that a possible future dent in SC2 tournaments might cause casters to not be able to stay in korea and we'd lose most/all of them :\ | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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GTR
51694 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
I believe that they share the same studio with sc2/CT and he's talking about "studio" so who knows... | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On February 16 2019 08:13 GTR wrote: classic team is quite small, although i'm pretty sure a few of them have shifted their day-to-day work on sc:r to wc3 reforged. Classic Team moved entirely to wc3R apart of few devs. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
Just don't ask me who and how. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On February 11 2019 05:03 Ideas wrote: ELO is super flawed as a measure. First you have the general tendency of ELO inflation, and then you have that impact magnified by game inflation. If you were the best pvt player in 2000, you might have only played a handful of official games. If you went 3-2, your year of dominance hardly is recorded as anything impressive, and yet, it was. This continues on throughout the history of broodwar. Most games until 2006 were OSL or MSL, most games after 2006 were PL, which is also a totally different degree of seriousness. If you werent a tippy top player before PL became big, you often got no games on TV outside of a brief flash in the ro32 or 16 in OSL. But for well over a decade a player of a similar caliber would get games on tv all the time.It's pretty easy to see who is the best PvT ever, just go to TLPD. top PvT ELO peaks of all time: jangbi - 2260 stork - 2259 bisu - 2255 best - 2218 nal_ra - 2214 snow - 2206 kingdom - 2201 reach - 2199 kal - 2195 free - 2194 so jangbi literally by 1 point haha. Although if you look at records stork has a much better winning percentage (66% for stork, 59% for jangbi) since jangbi had a huge slump in between the lost saga MSL and the jinair OSL. Best was/is great, but never got results like jangbi/stork.bisu did. In terms of current best PvTer, probably best or snow right? Rain is great too but didn't look too hot losing 2 Bo5s against sharp in the last couple months. | ||
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Ideas
United States8179 Posts
On February 17 2019 07:17 Dazed. wrote: ELO is super flawed as a measure. First you have the general tendency of ELO inflation, and then you have that impact magnified by game inflation. If you were the best pvt player in 2000, you might have only played a handful of official games. If you went 3-2, your year of dominance hardly is recorded as anything impressive, and yet, it was. This continues on throughout the history of broodwar. Most games until 2006 were OSL or MSL, most games after 2006 were PL, which is also a totally different degree of seriousness. If you werent a tippy top player before PL became big, you often got no games on TV outside of a brief flash in the ro32 or 16 in OSL. But for well over a decade a player of a similar caliber would get games on tv all the time. Ya it's not perfect but still a pretty good tool to have. I think it's hard to argue against jangbi/stork/bisu as the top 3 most skilled PvTers of the kespa era. ELO inflation is real for sure, but just looking at games from the earlier era you can see that just every year the average player got better mechanically and strategically than the year before. Maybe I'm wrong but it always seemed like everyone in the pro-scene was working on the same skill and knowledge base of the game over time and players just kept getting better and better. To the point where if you watch top players from the early 2000s they just seem so much worse than top players of today. Not just strategic knowledge but straight-up their micro and macro and multitasking were not as good. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
If I had a choice in selecting a moment in time, I might vouch for JangBi too, but in its entirety, his protoss-versus-terran career results wasn't as astounding as others. Having the highest peak performance doesn't necessarily mean that you have the highest mean performance, and JangBi was plagued with inconsistencies, even in his favoured match-up. JangBi may be the most impressive specimen if you only regard his highlight reel plays and peak ELO points, but life isn't a highlight reel despite that being what most people remember you for, your actual overall worth as a player should take into account your lowest points as well as your highest, and JangBi was nowhere near as consistent even in his famed protoss-versus-terran match-up when compared to Stork. | ||
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Jealous
10391 Posts
On February 18 2019 11:53 Letmelose wrote: The problem with calling JangBi the best protoss-versus-terran player of all-time is that it was only true when JangBi felt like being the best. There is an argument to be had that JangBi was the most skilled at numerous aspects of the match-up, and was nearly unstoppable when in full motion, but the circumstances under which his magnificent talent shined wasn't a consistent factor in many of his professional matches. The most impressive players that stick to the mind aren't always the greatest players in terms of producing positive results, which is ultimately the end goal of competitive gaming. If I had a choice in selecting a moment in time, I might vouch for JangBi too, but in its entirety, his protoss-versus-terran career results wasn't as astounding as others. Having the highest peak performance doesn't necessarily mean that you have the highest mean performance, and JangBi was plagued with inconsistencies, even in his favoured match-up. JangBi may be the most impressive specimen if you only regard his highlight reel plays and peak ELO points, but life isn't a highlight reel despite that being what most people remember you for, your actual overall worth as a player should take into account your lowest points as well as your highest, and JangBi was nowhere near as consistent even in his famed protoss-versus-terran match-up when compared to Stork. I think that this is also the reason why Bisu is not in the conversation for best PvT, and why Best should be. Bisu's most consistent PvT form was during the early days of post-3.3.07 IMO, despite his MMR peak being listed as mid-2011. When people adapted to his style, his PvT weakness became apparent. This is also not to mention that like JangBi, he was inconsistent. I think that while Stork probably had a better fundamental understanding of PvT, Best had the better toolkit and was similarly consistent. That's just my opinion, though. If I were to name the best PvT players of the post-3.3 era, I'd put Stork/Best above JangBi, and JangBi over Bisu. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On February 18 2019 10:06 Ideas wrote: Def bisu/stork/jangbi were the best players during the most mechanically intense era of broodwar. But, how do you compare relative dominance for people outside of eachothers eras? Not only ELO inflation but the nature of what wins in 2000 vs 2010 are totally different. One is creative, exploratory, in an era with low returns [i.e if you read about yellows early days he was more or less starving], the other is iterative, marginal, with a corporate environment. Hell, a lot of the early games arent even in TLPD, the entire reign of Grr's dominance hasnt been put in, only his career once he moved to Korea. Is it 'more' dominant to dominate for a year, during a period of extreme meta shifts, relative poverty, and only the beginnings of structure, or to dominate for two years where the meta shifts are more subtle, theres cash flow and social respect, etc?Ya it's not perfect but still a pretty good tool to have. I think it's hard to argue against jangbi/stork/bisu as the top 3 most skilled PvTers of the kespa era. ELO inflation is real for sure, but just looking at games from the earlier era you can see that just every year the average player got better mechanically and strategically than the year before. Maybe I'm wrong but it always seemed like everyone in the pro-scene was working on the same skill and knowledge base of the game over time and players just kept getting better and better. To the point where if you watch top players from the early 2000s they just seem so much worse than top players of today. Not just strategic knowledge but straight-up their micro and macro and multitasking were not as good. Top that off with someone like Nalra, who was arguably in an inbetween period, he gets the disbenefits of ELO inflation and exists in an entirely incomparable period to the dragons. | ||
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