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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1352 Posts
On August 30 2013 19:55 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 19:29 reminisce12 wrote:
Jangbi has the creativity to beat anyone in a bo5 match, but in terms of bo1 he wouldnt be ranked as high as a bisu or stork. I always had arguments with my friend whether JangBi or Bisu had the higher skill cap for the game, because both players had amazing potential that seemed to come short on multiple occasions (of course, the tendency being much more exaggerated in JangBi). He claimed that Bisu on his game was the most perfect protoss player, whereas I believed JangBi to be the ultimate protoss player. JangBi never struck me as the type to have the most guile, but his mechanics were always so crisp, and he truly was a beast when he was on form.
I actually think that's a really interesting argument. I've always held the (admittedly uncommon) belief that JangBi and Bisu at their peaks were actually very similar types of players. Not only were they mechanically above most of their fellow protoss brethren, but when playing well there was just a certain.... 'cleanness' to their play that's kind of hard to explain, like they had planned, read the situation, and executed that game perfectly, and I mean PERFECTLY.
The thing that really impressed me about Bisu late in his career, wasn't his history, wasn't his record, wasn't the flashy multitasking, certainly not his decision making (which was a bit inconsistent at best) it was just how... well thought out... his play was. Not a pylon out of place, his shuttle path flying exactly where there is a gap and his speedlots hitting exactly at a time and place where zerg doesn't want them to be. When playing well Jangbi's game seemed to have that same quality to it (more so in pvt, less so in pvz).
It was just something that I was impressed by in all their matchups, it showed when they could completely shut down vult harass with just a few goons due to pylon placements, it showed when their corsairs were constantly scouting/harassing, it showed when their entire army was always moving in PvP, but they'd always have the high ground in engagements. They didn't just do it well, they made it look effortless, clinical. The little details were so well thought out, and so well executed that you finish watching the game wondering whatever could the opponent have done about it, their build and their play seemed, for lack of a better word: flawless.
I always thought that it was their decision making that let them down. Bisu with his occasional brain farts in PvT(seriously build templars, not carriers). And Jangbi just seemed to not get PvZ at times, which is understandable, I don't think any protoss has truly understood the PvZ matchup besides Bisu. Whereas I felt stork and Nal_ra had better overall decision making, but their execution always had those little flaws, little bits of sloppiness that didn't matter because they had such control over the flow of the game, but didn't make their wins quite seem quite as clinical, their game not quite as perfect.
I think in the end I'd have to give it to Bisu (I might be a bit biased as a Bisu fan though), because his mechanics I think were, if not slightly better, at least were in areas more exceptional for progamers, they certainly held up better in his slump than JangBi's did.
That and there were alot of protosses that understood PvT quite well (sadly I don't consider Bisu one of those), but his understanding and feel for PvZ was truly something unique to Bisu.
But yeah, I always felt there was that... je ne sais quoi... that I felt Bisu and Jangbi shared at their best that other protoss didn't.
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STORK #1
We're doing personal opinions right? Yeah I give no justifications, Stork #1.
1. Stork
2-3: Bisu, Nal_rA
4. Jangbi
So yeah Jangbi's up there at #4 for me, he would not be there if it wasn't for the epic PvZ series against ZerO + OSL's over Fantasy. That game 4 vs. ZerO when he lost his natural and was lurker contained then he somehow broke out and the whole place was going nuts and the commentators were making it a historical push for the survival of the last standing heroes of Aiur and oh man that was one of the most memorable games ever.
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Y'all motherfuckers are forgetting about Best ..
Bisu
Stork
Best
Jangbi
Nal_Ra
Reach
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On August 30 2013 22:51 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Y'all motherfuckers are forgetting about Best ..
Bisu
Stork
Best
Jangbi
Nal_Ra
Reach
How would you put BeSt on top of Ra, I don't understand...
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On August 30 2013 23:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:51 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Y'all motherfuckers are forgetting about Best ..
Bisu
Stork
Best
Jangbi
Nal_Ra
Reach How would you put BeSt on top of Ra, I don't understand...
Well it's opinion based hehe but yeah i'd put it more like this.
Nal_Ra
Bisu
Reach
Stork
Jangbi
Anytime
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On August 30 2013 18:31 Letmelose wrote:
Stork
Other notable achievements:
WCG 2009 Grand Finals Champion
He only got second place there.
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In my opinion Jangbi one of the best protosses. He lost a lot. But when it is needed he could win. As I remember he won Flash in macro game in starleague and that was impressive.
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Jangbi is inconsistent. Sometimes the best in the world / truly epic and legendary. Other times, lazy and dull, letting his team down and way below expectations and his real abilities.
I love Jangbi, he is one of the most inspiring players to watch when he plays well. But his inconsistency doesn't grant him the greatness which otherwise 2 back-to-back OSL titles would. He did something amazing in BW which should place him at the highest tier of eternal glory, but it didn't feel like he completely owned it. More like, he pulled a ForGG twice, almost.
So maybe top 5 protoss of all time, if that. Hehe, not that such an accomplishment is bad, when you get compared to the likes of Nal_Ra, GARIMTO and Reach.
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On August 30 2013 22:42 OpticalShot wrote:
STORK #1
DINOTOSS4LIFE
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Any ranking that doesnt have Bisu and Nal_Ra as first and second is invalid :p
I'd rank Jangbi somewhere in the top 5 with Stork and Reach - probably 5th though.
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On August 31 2013 00:09 figq wrote:
Jangbi is inconsistent. Sometimes the best in the world / truly epic and legendary. Other times, lazy and dull, letting his team down and way below expectations and his real abilities.
I love Jangbi, he is one of the most inspiring players to watch when he plays well. But his inconsistency doesn't grant him the greatness which otherwise 2 back-to-back OSL titles would. He did something amazing in BW which should place him at the highest tier of eternal glory, but it didn't feel like he completely owned it. More like, he pulled a ForGG twice, almost.
So maybe top 5 protoss of all time, if that. Hehe, not that such an accomplishment is bad, when you get compared to the likes of Nal_Ra, GARIMTO and Reach.
Your post is really fair I must say as a huge Jangbi fan myself. If I had to make a list I would probably rate him as top 5 material.
1/2. Bisu/Stork, its so hard to choose between these. Bisu is a 3 time MSL Champion and was amazing in Proleague for such a long time, but on the other hand a real lackluster player in the OSL.
While Stork has been in 4 OSL finals, won 1 one of em, 3 times in the WCG Grand finals? won 1 of those and amazingly consistent in Proleague and both were gods of 2 different matchups.
3. Nal_Ra one of the most influential players ever across all races, I myself regard him as the Savior of the Protoss race.
4/5. Reach/Jangbi, I cant decide between these 2 either. Reach was in the scene for a looooong time, completely insane how long to be honest and he was one of the few Protosses that was even able to consistently beat the other top tier players of Zerg & Terran, but in terms of sheer skill at the game Jangbi has the edge and you 2 MSL silvers + the only back-to-back OSL Champion is no small feat either.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I don't know much about the different protoss' history but still aware of some of the winnings, old timers etc... I think Jangbi is top 5 with Bisu, Stork, Nal_Ra and Reach.
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Just saying.. I hadn't watched much of Jangbi.. until today. I saw a vod of him playing and I was very very impressed. He looked really gosu.
So I'd say he's up there..
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I give little more props to Reach and Nal_Ra.
While Bisu and Stork showed dominance in zerg and terran matchup respectively, they also played in an era where protoss wasn't so terrible (or in some cases even favored) thanks to maps, more figured out tech, etc.
When Reach won his OSL got his nickname Hero Toss, protoss was considered by far the worst race and he was one of 2 protosses to make OSL (the other being garimto, who got eliminated 0-3 in ro16). He was ray of hope during dark times for protoss and I think the fact that he held his own during the days of Mecury and Requiem (hell for protosses) should reflect a lot.
Nal_Ra's dominance in Proleague is also unparalleled. He had 9 consecutive wins in ace matches and carried then KTF MagicNs. He had very innovative and flash style and had a memorable hallucination recall game against GooDFriend. He pioneered corsair/reaver fast expansion build against Zerg and won games when all the other protosses were getting decimated by even average zergs.
Call me old school, but I'd rank them
1. Reach
2. Nal_Ra
3. Bisu
4. Stork
5. Everyone else (probably put Jangbi at top for his 2 OSL wins, but it's debatable)
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BeSt should be top 5 for having the most absurd macro known to mankind, he just threw his army away 50 billion times and still got 20+ gateways going.
Exaggerations aside, BeSt needs more love but yeah i agree with most of the top 5s. For me it's
1. Bisu
2. Nal_Ra
3. Stork
4. Reach
5. Jangbi
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imho jangbi's two osl victories are overrated because they made such a fantastic storyline.
in his first osl victory, the defeat of flash was largely due to flash's hurting wrists.
his second osl is generally tainted because many bw pros were already preparing for the switch to sc2 at that time. jangbi and fantasy were probably the only players who still put 100% into that osl. (which is also the reason why fantasy was able to embarass flash 3-0 in that semis...)
so yeah, i love jangbi and all, but i wouldnt rate him top 3 just because of these two osl titles...
imho, the ranking is as follows:
#1: bisu, for being the most accomplished toss, the revolutionist and also for having a superb proleague record. and for his handsomeness.
#2: stork, for being the second pillar and spearhead of toss for over half of bw's overall lifespan. and for being the second most skilled toss of all time.
#3: nal_ra, for his massive contribution to the evolution of toss strategies and builds and for being very successful by toss standards.
#4: reach, for being the only successful toss at a time when the race as a whole was in danger of dying out. and for his unparalleled manliness.
#5: jangbi, for many great performances in individual leagues and for having maybe the strongest peak play of any toss in the history of the game.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)
2.Stork (1 OSL gold, 3 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, 3 WCG Korea silver, high winrate in all matchups and only person to be able to beat consistently Bisu/JD/Flash)
3.Jangbi (2 OSL gold, 2 MSL silver, 1 GOMTv silver, sick winrate during his first peak in 2009, only protoss beside Stork and Bisu to have actually broken the symbolic 2300+ ELO)
4.Nal_Ra (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, also a Proleague monster, and his play was very influential)
5.Reach (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 2 MSL silver, was the single protoss doing consistently well in individual leagues hence the nickname Hero protoss)
6.Anytime (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, carried Lecaf Oz to win the first Shinhan bank Proleague
7.BeSt (1 OSL silver, longest PvP streak ever which is very relevant in this classment, only player capable of beating Flash consistently during his God mode period)
8.Garimto (2 OSL gold, but stopped his career very early, so we can't really say he was consistent for a super long period, or had a strong influence on the protoss race)
9.Kingdom (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL silver)
10.Kal/Free (always overshadowed by the other dragons, but were doing good both in individual leagues and Proleague and were good in all matchups)
Cant top this post, base on the results this may be the most accurate top 10 Protoss list. I wouldve given Jangbi a 3rd place as well.
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On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)
2.Stork (1 OSL gold, 3 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, 3 WCG Korea silver, high winrate in all matchups and only person to be able to beat consistently Bisu/JD/Flash)
3.Jangbi (2 OSL gold, 2 MSL silver, 1 GOMTv silver, sick winrate during his first peak in 2009, only protoss beside Stork and Bisu to have actually broken the symbolic 2300+ ELO)
4.Nal_Ra (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, also a Proleague monster, and his play was very influential)
5.Reach (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 2 MSL silver, was the single protoss doing consistently well in individual leagues hence the nickname Hero protoss)
6.Anytime (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, carried Lecaf Oz to win the first Shinhan bank Proleague
7.BeSt (1 OSL silver, longest PvP streak ever which is very relevant in this classment, only player capable of beating Flash consistently during his God mode period)
8.Garimto (2 OSL gold, but stopped his career very early, so we can't really say he was consistent for a super long period, or had a strong influence on the protoss race)
9.Kingdom (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL silver)
10.Kal/Free (always overshadowed by the other dragons, but were doing good both in individual leagues and Proleague and were good in all matchups)
this is pretty dead on.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 31 2013 01:29 Black Gun wrote:
imho jangbi's two osl victories are overrated because they made such a fantastic storyline.
in his first osl victory, the defeat of flash was largely due to flash's hurting wrists.
his second osl is generally tainted because many bw pros were already preparing for the switch to sc2 at that time. jangbi and fantasy were probably the only players who still put 100% into that osl. (which is also the reason why fantasy was able to embarass flash 3-0 in that semis...)
so yeah, i love jangbi and all, but i wouldnt rate him top 3 just because of these two osl titles...
imho, the ranking is as follows:
#1: bisu, for being the most accomplished toss, the revolutionist and also for having a superb proleague record. and for his handsomeness.
#2: stork, for being the second pillar and spearhead of toss for over half of bw's overall lifespan. and for being the second most skilled toss of all time.
#3: nal_ra, for his massive contribution to the evolution of toss strategies and builds and for being very successful by toss standards.
#4: reach, for being the only successful toss at a time when the race as a whole was in danger of dying out. and for his unparalleled manliness.
#5: jangbi, for many great performances in individual leagues and for having maybe the strongest peak play of any toss in the history of the game.
thing is, Jangbi said that he was playing BW for fun and also playing some SCII at that time so your second argument is invalid. First OSL about Flash's hurting wrists, well, I dunno if I agree with that, mostly since Flash made it that far with his wrists, what's one more player to win?
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On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)
2.Stork (1 OSL gold, 3 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, 3 WCG Korea silver, high winrate in all matchups and only person to be able to beat consistently Bisu/JD/Flash)
3.Jangbi (2 OSL gold, 2 MSL silver, 1 GOMTv silver, sick winrate during his first peak in 2009, only protoss beside Stork and Bisu to have actually broken the symbolic 2300+ ELO)
4.Nal_Ra (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, also a Proleague monster, and his play was very influential)
5.Reach (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 2 MSL silver, was the single protoss doing consistently well in individual leagues hence the nickname Hero protoss)
6.Anytime (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, carried Lecaf Oz to win the first Shinhan bank Proleague
7.BeSt (1 OSL silver, longest PvP streak ever which is very relevant in this classment, only player capable of beating Flash consistently during his God mode period)
8.Garimto (2 OSL gold, but stopped his career very early, so we can't really say he was consistent for a super long period, or had a strong influence on the protoss race)
9.Kingdom (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL silver)
10.Kal/Free (always overshadowed by the other dragons, but were doing good both in individual leagues and Proleague and were good in all matchups)
I agree with this list. I think it also reflects my opinions of the Protosses even without factoring in their tournament wins.
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EPT
