EPT2. Violet
3. Bisu
4. Stork
5. Movie
6. Kal
7. Horang2
8. Flying
23. Free
Reach, Nal_Ra, Kingdom and Anytime were all before my time and I know nothing about GARIMTO
Jangbi in all-time protoss ranking? - Page 2
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Peeano
Netherlands5187 Posts
2. Violet 3. Bisu 4. Stork 5. Movie 6. Kal 7. Horang2 8. Flying 23. Free Reach, Nal_Ra, Kingdom and Anytime were all before my time and I know nothing about GARIMTO | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Edit: Jangbi edges out Reach, for me. Reach won when no other Protoss could, and he was also able to stand up to Oov; but Jangbi also won when nobody else could, and defeating Fantasy and Flash to win OSLs is more or less the same. Reach gets credit for being awesome at 2v2 as well, but I still think the double OSL win compared to the single OSL win puts Jangbi somewhat ahead. Edit2: @Caladbolg: Exactly, that's what I get too when I weigh all the factors together  | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
1. Bisu 2. Nal Ra 3. Jangbi/Garimto 4. Everyone else (with Stork probably on top) If you go by influence, Stork Grrr Reach and Anytime might make the top 5 and push Jangbi out. I myself prefer to assess things with a priority on (relative) peak performance and longevity/consistency, which would make my list something like this: 1. Bisu 2. Nal Ra 3. Stork 4. Jangbi (c'mon he's a member of the exclusive 2300 ELO club, and more importantly the back-to-back OSL winner club!) 5. Reach 6. Grrrr 7. Garimto 8. Kingdom 9. Anytime 10. Best Kal and Free would be CBNC | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
 BisuStorkNal_rAJangBiReachAnytimeBut it's kinda unfair on Jangbi since most player's didn't immediately fall off after their peaks, whereas JangBi's was cut short. Had he had more time to play he could have ended up above Nal_ra and Stork, if he won another starleague as well as performed well he'd have ended up above Bisu. As it stands his slump was a very signicant portion of his career that weighs his record down. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote: 1.Bisu 2.Stork 3.Jangbi 4.Nal_Ra 5.Reach 6.Anytime 7.BeSt 8.Garimto 9.Kingdom 10.Kal/Free This is about right I'd say. Jangbi would be #2 if Stork wasn't so consistent over a long period of time. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
Stork Nal_Ra Anytime = Jangbi then again I'm always forgetting that until Jang banged GARIMTO was the only one to win OSL 2 times as a toss, so maybe he should be around top3 too. | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On August 30 2013 16:53 Crisium wrote: 1. Bisu 2. Nal_ra 3. Stork 4. Reach 5. Jangbi Yes, in the end, Jangbi did better than both Reach and Stork in individual leagues. But Jangbi was never the best Protoss in SPL. 2008 and 2009 were the only seasons he did better than his teammate Stork, and actually the only SPL seasons where he was even a top 5 Protoss, let alone a top BW pro. JangBi from late 2008 to early 2009 was at his peak: a top toss in SPL and reaching 3 finals in a short period of time. JangBi in 2011 and 2012 was immaculate in his OSL runs (I still get shivers) but even then his SPL was very average. And don't forget that before his OSL run in late summer 2011, JangBi was a paewang: one of the worst progamers on the scene and a laughingstock to anti-fans and an embarrassment to fans. His OSL victory in Jin Air erased that status, but you cannot forget that he did not perform in SPL compared to Stork and Bisu who were tops for years and years. Nal_ra was the best Protoss hope against multiple bonjwas before Bisu. He beat NaDa in the finals when he was god (NaDa had won 4 of the previous 6 SLs), and waged the Holy Wars against Savior as the only Protoss hope before the revolutionist himself. He was tops in SPL, individual leagues, and defined Protoss builds over multiple generations (such as inventing FFE and Sair/Reaver). JangBi cannot be ranked higher than him: I won't allow it. Reach too was one of the few Protoss hopes against the greats of the other races: Boxer, NaDa, July and Savior playing all of them in finals while also defining macro Protoss play for years. JangBi is below these legends in total accomplishments, imo. Jangbi had a terrible slump but Stork and Bisu weren't top for years and years... they had their long slumps too, with Bisu even being taken off lineup for rest. Along with 2 OSL golds he also has multiple deep individual run silvers which are overlooked too often. When Jangbi won his first OSL there was no protoss hope, it was one of, if not the, hardest runs ever for OSL. Almost unanimously people expected a Terran winner (Flash/fantasy) and with zerg having a small chance to take them on. By the second OSL jangbi was the only protoss who people looked to be able to take down God Young Ho. Stork was the only protoss who was able to simultaneously perform well in individual league and proleague. Other protosses, the ones who excelled in proleague fell out quickly in individual, and the ones who got titles didn't meet expectations in proleague. With bias, I would rank Jangbi at 1. with less bias: 1. Bisu 2. Stork 3. Jangbi | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
I will include any notable achievements outside of the realms of the major individual leagues, but really, they are literally impossible to compare statistically and can only be weighed by judgement, which can only lead to preferential treatment even by those who have witnessed every single possible moment of each of these players' careers. Method of points are as follows: 1) 16 points for being a champion 2) 8 points for 2nd place 3) 4 points for reaching the round of four 4) 2 points for reaching the round of eight 5) 1 point for reaching the round of sixteen 6) No points for any finishes below the round of sixteen Stork 35 individual leagues attended 23 RO16s (65.71% success rate) 11 RO8s (31.42%) 8 RO4s (22.86%) 5 Finals (14.29%) 1 Championship (2.78%) Total number of points: 78 (13.93% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 Most Wins 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Champion 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 MVP WCG 2007 Grand Finals Champion 2008 GomTV Invitational 2nd place 2007 Shinhan ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Champion WWI 2008 Champion WCG 2008 Grand Finals 2nd place IEF 2008 2nd place IEF 2009 Champion WCG 2009 Grand Finals Champion Bisu 29 individual leagues attended 14 RO16s (48.28% success rate) 9 RO8s (31.03%) 6 RO4s (20.69%) 4 Finals (13.79%) 3 Championships (10.34%) Total number of points: 75 (16.16% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2006 SKY ProLeague R1 2nd place 2006 SKY ProLeague R2 Champion 2006 SKY ProLeague Grand Finals Champion WWI 2007 Champion IEF 2007 Champion 2008-2009 Shinhan ProLeague Champion 2008-2009 Shinhan ProLeague MVP GomTV Classic S2 Champion IEF 2010 Champion 2009-2010 Shinhan ProLeague 2nd place IEF 2011 Champion 2010-2011 Shinhan Winner's League Champion 2010-2011 Shinhan ProLeague Champion 2010-2011 Shinhan ProLeague MVP 2010-2011 Shinhan ProLeague Most Wins Nal rA 40 individual leagues attended 15 RO16s (37.5% success rate) 10 RO8s (25%) 8 RO4s (20%) 4 Finals (10%) 2 Championships (5%) Total number of points: 73 (11.41% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: Gemongsa MBC Team League Champion Life Zone MBC Team League Champion 2003 Pmang ProLeague Champion 2004 SKY ProLeague R3 2nd place 2004 SKY ProLeague R3 MVP 2004 SKY ProLeague R2 Most Wins Snickers All Stars R2 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 MVP 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 Most Wins 2005 SKY ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place WWI 2006 Champion Blizzcon 2007 2nd place Reach 53 individual leagues attended 18 RO16s (33.96% success rate) 12 RO8s (22.64%) 6 RO4s (11.32%) 4 Finals (7.55%) 1 Championship (1.89%) Total number of points: 66 (7.78% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2004 SKY ProLeague R2 Most Wins 2004 SKY ProLeague R3 2nd place Blizzcon 2005 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place IEST 2006 Champion JangBi 30 individual leagues attended 8 RO16s (26.67% success rate) 6 RO8s (20%) 5 RO4s (16.67%) 4 Finals (13.33%) 2 Championships (6.67%) Total number of points: 56 (11.67% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2007 Seoul e-Sports Festival 2nd place 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Champion 2007 Shinhan ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Champion GomTV Classic S2 2nd place Apart from the five above, no protoss players I know of (I've looked into Kingdom, and Garimto in particular) has individual league career points above 50 points. I have always had a special place in my heart for JangBi, and always believed him to have the highest skill cap of any protoss player to this date even though his contemporaries such as Stork, and Bisu outperformed him in general. JangBi bursted into the professional scene with the prophecy that he will one day be the ultimate protoss player, but failed tremendously again and again, despite having one of the cleanest, most-hard-to-mirror mechanics around. I've never been a fan of Bisu, despite his massive accomplishments both as a player, and a trend setter. Stork has always been the standard against which top protoss players were compared against. However, JangBi always was the fallen angel that I waited on to succeed. He was one of my favourite protoss players, and although he will never be remembered as the greatest, he certainly made his mark as a legendary player. | ||
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
On August 30 2013 17:43 Iplaythings wrote: I'd put him behind Ra, Bisu, Stork and Reach who I'd place top 4 in no particular order This is pretty much my thought on it. He was doing really well before he went down in a slump. Then came back and played amazingly for the last good while. The inconsistency over a longer period of time there really seems to be what puts the others ahead of him for me personally. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On August 30 2013 18:31 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler + From a pure statistical point of view, just in terms of major individual leagues (34 Ongamenet StarLeagues spanning from 1999 to 2012, and 26 MBC StarLeagues including the four major KPGA precursors, spanning from 2002 to 2011), because these two are pretty much the only consistent form of competition that can be cross referenced from different eras. I will include any notable achievements outside of the realms of the major individual leagues, but really, they are literally impossible to compare statistically and can only be weighed by judgement, which can only lead to preferential treatment even by those who have witnessed every single possible moment of each of these players' careers. Method of points are as follows: 1) 16 points for being a champion 2) 8 points for 2nd place 3) 4 points for reaching the round of four 4) 2 points for reaching the round of eight 5) 1 point for reaching the round of sixteen 6) No points for any finishes below the round of sixteen Stork 35 individual leagues attended 23 RO16s (65.71% success rate) 11 RO8s (31.42%) 8 RO4s (22.86%) 4 Finals (14.29%) 1 Championship (2.78%) Total number of points: 78 (13.93% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 Most Wins 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Champion 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 MVP WCG 2007 Grand Finals Champion 2008 GomTV Invitational 2nd place 2007 Shinhan ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Champion WWI 2008 Champion WCG 2008 Grand Finals 2nd place IEF 2008 2nd place IEF 2009 Champion WCG 2009 Grand Finals Champion Bisu 29 individual leagues attended 14 RO16s (48.28% success rate) 9 RO8s (31.03%) 6 RO4s (20.69%) 4 Finals (13.79%) 3 Championships (10.34%) Total number of points: 75 (16.16% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2006 SKY ProLeague R1 2nd place 2006 SKY ProLeague R2 Champion 2006 SKY ProLeague Grand Finals Champion WWI 2007 Champion IEF 2007 Champion 2008-2009 Shinhan ProLeague Champion 2008-2009 Shinhan ProLeague MVP GomTV Classic S2 Champion IEF 2010 Champion 2009-2010 Shinhan ProLeague 2nd place IEF 2011 Champion 2010-2011 Shinhan Winner's League Champion 2010-2011 Shinhan ProLeague Champion 2010-2011 Shinhan ProLeague MVP 2010-2011 Shinhan ProLeague Most Wins Nal rA 40 individual leagues attended 15 RO16s (37.5% success rate) 10 RO8s (25%) 8 RO4s (20%) 4 Finals (10%) 2 Championships (5%) Total number of points: 73 (11.41% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: Gemongsa MBC Team League Champion Life Zone MBC Team League Champion 2003 Pmang ProLeague Champion 2004 SKY ProLeague R3 2nd place 2004 SKY ProLeague R3 MVP 2004 SKY ProLeague R2 Most Wins Snickers All Stars R2 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 MVP 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 Most Wins 2005 SKY ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place WWI 2006 Champion Blizzcon 2007 2nd place Reach 53 individual leagues attended 18 RO16s (33.96% success rate) 12 RO8s (22.64%) 6 RO4s (11.32%) 4 Finals (7.55%) 1 Championship (1.89%) Total number of points: 66 (7.78% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2004 SKY ProLeague R2 Most Wins 2004 SKY ProLeague R3 2nd place Blizzcon 2005 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 2nd place 2005 SKY ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place IEST 2006 Champion JangBi 30 individual leagues attended 8 RO16s (26.67% success rate) 6 RO8s (20%) 5 RO4s (16.67%) 4 Finals (13.33%) 2 Championships (6.67%) Total number of points: 56 (11.67% of the total possible score if he finished champion in all his attempts) Other notable achievements: 2007 Seoul e-Sports Festival 2nd place 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Champion 2007 Shinhan ProLeague Grand Finals 2nd place 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Champion GomTV Classic S2 2nd place Apart from the five above, no protoss players I know of (I've looked into Kingdom, and Garimto in particular) has individual league career points above 50 points. I have always had a special place in my heart for JangBi, and always believed him to have the highest skill cap of any protoss player to this date even though his contemporaries such as Stork, and Bisu outperformed him in general. JangBi bursted into the professional scene with the prophecy that he will one day be the ultimate protoss player, but failed tremendously again and again, despite having one of the cleanest, most-hard-to-mirror mechanics around. I've never been a fan of Bisu, despite his massive accomplishments both as a player, and a trend setter. Stork has always been the standard against which top protoss players were compared against. However, JangBi always was the fallen angel that I waited on to succeed. He was one of my favourite protoss players, and although he will never be remembered as the greatest, he certainly made his mark as a legendary player. I'm really confused about the math in your post. | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On August 30 2013 18:22 saltywet wrote: Jangbi had a terrible slump but Stork and Bisu weren't top for years and years... they had their long slumps too, with Bisu even being taken off lineup for rest. Stork is the definition of Proleague consistency. He ranked top 6 in Protoss for every SPL from 2005-2012 except 2006. Oh yes Bisu slumped, but he was still the #1 of any race in SPL twice (2009 and 2011), and was top 6 Protoss three more times (2006, 2010 and 2012). Yeah, he was still top 6 toss in 2010 when everyone was hating on him for his SL failures. JangBi was the second best Protoss in SPL in both 2008 and 2009, and never again set foot in the top 6. I will join Letmelose in throwing some stats around. Best SPL records for Protoss 2005-2012: Going by +/- split for "top ranked", fyi, not total wins. 2012 (R1 only, no hybrid): 1. 15-6 Stork 2. 13-7 Bisu 3. 7-2 Dear 4. 14-10 Stats 5. 12-8 Best 6. 7-5 Brave 2011: 1 .66-15 Bisu 2. 48-30 Stats 3. 43-29 Stork 4. 31-18 Movie 5. 27-16 Horang2 6. 30-23 Jaehoon 7. 22-16 Shuttle 2010: 1. 32-18 free 2. 31-20 Stork 3. 29-18 Best 4. 20-11 Stats 5. 21-13 Snow 6. 30-23 Bisu 7. 38-33 Kal 2009 (Hello dragons): 1. 55-15 Bisu 2. 34-22 JangBi 3. 35-24 Kal 4. 33-22 Best 5. 35-25 free 6. 33-24 Stork 2008: 1. 14-4 Pure 2. 14-5 JangBi 3. 12-4 Best 4. 12-8 Stork 5. 12-9 Kal 6. 3-1 Nal_rA (Only 4 games, but still the 6th best split, though free is 6th in wins with a 10-12 record) 2007: 1. 34-14 Anytime 2. 31-11 Stork 3. 32-19 free 4. 19-9 Pusan 5. 23-15 Much 6. 10-7 Rock 2006: 1. 8-3 RainBOw 2. 10-6 Pusan 3. 8-4 Much 4. 4-1 Daezang 5. 11-10 Anytime 6. 5-5 Bisu 7. 4-4 Reach 2005: 1. 11-3 Kingdom 2. 13-7 nal_ra 2. 13-7 Pusan 4. 16-13 Stork 5. 7-5 Much 6. 5-3 Rage | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On August 30 2013 18:58 Lachrymose wrote: I'm really confused about the math in your post. I was in a rush when I wrote the post, so there might be some calculation errors or typos. I'll just explain how I reached the career points using Stork. Stork won a single championship, for which he gains 16 points (16 x1). He reached 5 finals, so he gains an additional 32 points (8 x 4), counting out the championship which I accounted for. He reached 8 round of fours, so he gains an additional 12 points (4 x 3). He reached 11 round of eights, so he gains an additional 6 points (2 x 3). He reached 23 round of sixteens, 12 of which failed to progress any further, so he gains an additional 12 points (1 x 12). His total score is 78 (16 + 32 +12 + 6 + 12). His total score had he won all his 35 attempts would have been 560 points, and the 78 points he gathered is 13.93% of that hypothetical score. The percentages next to each of the rounds are his success ratio when taking into account his 35 attempts. For example, Stork managed to reach the round of sixteen 23 times out of 35, which happens to be 65.71%. I hope this clears things up a little bit. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On August 30 2013 19:29 reminisce12 wrote: Jangbi has the creativity to beat anyone in a bo5 match, but in terms of bo1 he wouldnt be ranked as high as a bisu or stork. To be honest, no protoss player in the history of the game has managed to perform regardless of the circumstances except for perhaps Stork. Even Bisu, widely regarded as the greatest protoss player of all time, has had severe flaws in his game that prevented him from succeeding at the highest level regardless of the situation. In fact, he was incredibly influenced by various circumstances, and needed certain set ups to post results (but when the stars lined up, he really took off). For example, during his early reign of terror in MBC StarLeagues, he failed to perform equally well in the ProLeague despite being in the reigning ProLeague champions. His focus was heavily focused on individual leagues (which he did incredibly well in), and Sea was left to carry to team in the ProLeague stages. It was a stark contrast to the likes of July, back when he was the best player around, he literally carried the team on his shoulders by playing 1v1s, 2v2s, ace-matches, and even the odd games playing off-races. It is true that Bisu came into his own in the latter stages of his career as a ProLeague monster. However, you'll also notice that he was quite mediocre in the 2009-2010 Shinhan ProLeague due to the fact that the kind of BO1 in that setting was different due to the fact that there were exposed entries. Bisu simply couldn't perform to the same level when the opposing team knew which map he was going to play in. Of course, there's also the fact that he came short in the vast majority of individual leagues he participated, as an ironic contrast to the early stages of his career. JangBi was indeed one of the most streaky players in the history of the game, and his ProLeague performances were quite medicore for a player in posession of such loftly skills. However, it cannot be pinned down to being poorer in BO1 settings. There's only one protoss player in the history of the game that managed to perform consistently regardless of the settings, and that's Stork. I'm not quite sure how much of Bisu's outstanding performances for SK Telecom T1 was due to the set-up of the team, and how much of it was due to his personal capabilities. However, there's no denying that ProLeague performances aren't necessarily are perfect indicator of BO1 capabilities of a player. I always had arguments with my friend whether JangBi or Bisu had the higher skill cap for the game, because both players had amazing potential that seemed to come short on multiple occasions (of course, the tendency being much more exaggerated in JangBi). He claimed that Bisu on his game was the most perfect protoss player, whereas I believed JangBi to be the ultimate protoss player. JangBi never struck me as the type to have the most guile, but his mechanics were always so crisp, and he truly was a beast when he was on form. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1656 Posts
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
On August 30 2013 16:30 kidleaderr wrote: Bisu Stork Jangbi Nal_ra deserves to be above Jangbi imho. First off he had better results, he was responsible for some of BW's evolution and also he was more solid overall. I think Jangbi is 4th in all respects. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
So: Bisu Ra Stork Reach Jangbi I also feel Jangbi's 2nd gold shouldn't carry the same weight as earlier ones due to the transition - despite how enjoyable his run was. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On August 30 2013 16:43 Chairman Ray wrote: Jangbi to me was the best preparation protoss. His skill naturally wasn't very good, as denoted by his constant slumps and poor performance in proleague, but when he trains hardcore for a tournament, his results are spectacular. I think Kal and free are also Protosses worth mentioning. I don't know about that. Of course everybody remembers his storms; I think micro management wise he was one of the best and quickest of all time. I always thought his sloppiness was more a psychological thing... | ||
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