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Jangbi retires - Page 37
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larse
1611 Posts
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forumtext
575 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On August 30 2013 22:01 Chef wrote: I don't understand what you mean by Blizzard doesn't care about eSports. Yep, especially because they hosted the GOM Classic Seasons to get a foothold in Korea for when SC2 gets released. | ||
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
well.. best of luck, will never forget the last BW OSL finals and that fistpump even before fantasy gg'd. | ||
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Crackpot
58 Posts
GL HF | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Criticizing ID Software in favour of Blizzard is kinda insane. John Carmack is very altruistic and will do things that are just cool even if they don't necessarily increase profits (kinda like Blizzard used to do sometimes). This really does start to go off topic though. To complain that ID software doesn't support eSports doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Blizzard didn't support BW, it just made itself, and that's exactly the way it should be. It's my belief that except by indirect means like selling more copies of their games, it is bad for game developers to get rich off eSports. It creates all kinds of conflicts of interest (in that their goal is to sell stuff and make money, not necessarily to make eSports stable and legitimate, and ultimately those things end up being incompatible). For an eSport to truly ascend to the level of real sports it would really need to be freeware. Brood War was the closest we ever got before Blizzard started caring about [making money off] eSports lol. So yeah, don't misunderstand me hahahaha. I can't forgive them for the lawsuits they filed against the people who made eSports a reality at all rather than just bunch of random unrefined stupid tournaments no one but the #1 player could ever live off (if at all). They are grade A jerks, even if the law is on their side (more because no law has been made yet to protect significant cultures that arise out of such means). I don't know if Jangbi cares about any of that, though. Maybe indirectly, in the way the atmosphere is way less genuine in an artificial eSports scene. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On August 31 2013 02:13 larse wrote: Stork says he won't retire. With "he" he means himself and not JangBi right ? i am really sad that JangBi retired . He was the only protoss i cheered for and expected something from in SC2 . Well my only hope is for Free or Stork to do well , at this point i would even cheer for Bisu . Since there aren't many "old school" players left . It's so sad , back in the BW days i would rather be caught dead then cheer for a protoss player , now i just want to see the old greats still having some success . BTW does anybody have any idea of what Much and Iris are doing post military ? I know that Iris was/is coach in Azubu , but i have no idea what Much is doing ? We should have a thread for stalking retired progamers :D . | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 31 2013 03:53 Chef wrote: Criticizing ID Software in favour of Blizzard is kinda insane. John Carmack is very altruistic and will do things that are just cool even if they don't necessarily increase profits (kinda like Blizzard used to do sometimes). I'm not talking about John Carmack, the guy's fucking brilliant. But John Carmack isn't id. This isn't the 90s and early 00s anymore. id has forsaken its biggest brands in favor of just making engines and mediocre games that showcase those engines in attempts to make them sell better. That in itself is fine, things change, companies can't stay the same forever. But what really stings is that they keep running Quake tournaments at QuakeCon while giving them the least attention and putting in as little effort as possible, to the point where the events become an absolute joke, far worse than any premier tournament we've seen in SC2 and even worse than what WCG has become recently. And that's just pathetic. Pretending to still give a shit about one of the two franchises that made you what you are now, even when everything you're doing points to the contrary. If they just left it alone I would've been happier, instead of shitting on the legacy of the best competitive FPS game of all time more and more with every year. That is inexcusable. And I guarantee to you that this opinion is unanimous among what's left of the Quake community. As an outsider, it might seem odd to you, but trust me it's a pathetic sight to behold. It has nothing to do with Carmack. Things might have gone better if he were still at the helm, but at the same time the guy's passion has always been tech and programming so I can't fault him at all for choosing to focus on that. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
On August 31 2013 04:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I'm not talking about John Carmack, the guy's fucking brilliant. But John Carmack isn't id. This isn't the 90s and early 00s anymore. id has forsaken its biggest brands in favor of just making engines and mediocre games that showcase those engines in attempts to make them sell better. That in itself is fine, things change, companies can't stay the same forever. But what really stings is that they keep running Quake tournaments at QuakeCon while giving them the least attention and putting in as little effort as possible, to the point where the events become an absolute joke, far worse than any premier tournament we've seen in SC2 and even worse than what WCG has become recently. And that's just pathetic. Pretending to still give a shit about one of the two franchises that made you what you are now, even when everything you're doing points to the contrary. If they just left it alone I would've been happier, instead of shitting on the legacy of the best competitive FPS game of all time more and more with every year. That is inexcusable. And I guarantee to you that this opinion is unanimous among what's left of the Quake community. As an outsider, it might seem odd to you, but trust me it's a pathetic sight to behold. It has nothing to do with Carmack. Things might have gone better if he were still at the helm, but at the same time the guy's passion has always been tech and programming so I can't fault him at all for choosing to focus on that. At least they aren't actively hurting the scene to push a new product down our throats... | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 31 2013 04:19 Elroi wrote: At least they aren't actively hurting the scene to push a new product down our throats... I'm pretty sure if it was big enough they would, but eh... Anyway, the point is that Blizzard cares about eSports a shit ton more than id, even if their eSport of choice is SC2. And even then, looking at the big picture, killing a game in favor of another is still better than humiliating and neglecting another every year for no reason and no gain whatsoever. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 31 2013 04:37 Chef wrote: You're right that I don't know anything about the Quake scene, but unless id is telling them they're not allowed to run their own tournaments or build their own scene or is telling them they have to pay huge fees to run them, or that the existing scene had to get out of town because the new quake is in town... You don't get it... people said that Blizzard doesn't care for eSports... that's simply not true. They don't care about Brood War, that's a fucking shame, I agree, but they do care about StarCraft 2, no matter how incompetent their decisions may seem at times. On August 31 2013 04:37 Chef wrote: It is the scene's own fault that they aren't bigger. Not really, every skill-intensive game that's hard to get into and infinitely harder to master has suffered as gaming became more casual and more geared towards catering to a wider audience instead of actually providing interesting gameplay and deep mechanics. And even then I'd say Quake and Brood War are probably among the games least affected by that trend shift. On August 31 2013 04:37 Chef wrote: In Brood War's glory days no one ever thought Blizzcon's invitational with a few pros and top foreigners was shitting on e-sports. It was never meant to be anything more than fanservice and an aside to the rest of their convention. I don't know anything about Quakecon, but I'm getting the vibe it is just a nod, not literally supposed to be the professional scene. It's convention after all. Let me paint a picture for all the BW fans that think they have it so bad. This is gonna be a bit longer but I trust you have the patience to read it, if you really want a wider perspective on things. The Quake series was id's magnum opus, their crown jewel. It revolutionized first-person shooter both single-player and especially multi-player, it paved the way for competitive gaming and eSports in the Western world and even the id Tech engines it used were considered so great that other engines for some of the most popular games would be based on them (Valve's GoldSrc and Source and even the Call of Duty engine, among so many others). QuakeCon provided the biggest tournament in the West for a while, and even when it wasn't anymore, it still continued to be very reputable, well-organized and well-run. Of course the convention entailed much more than that, but there was still ample respect given to the competitors and their game, and things were looking great. But then id started gradually shifting their focus away from that, even though it was enjoying great success. Imagine you have a purebred, prize-winning dog, the kind that you teach tricks and take to shows were it leaves everyone in awe and garners nothing but admiration. But gradually you lose interest in your dog, and focus on other things. The dog still wants to be a champion, still wants to do tricks, still wants to go to shows and make people happy. But you don't take him there anymore. Eventually you start forgetting to take care of him, to wash him, to take him on walks and even to feed him. You don't care about dogs at all anymore. But you still keep him, because people remember that you once had an award-winning dog. He manages to survive one way or another, although he's now sick and fatigued and nothing but an empty, lifeless shell. You don't set it free nor do you put it to sleep. And every once in a while its heart starts pumping more vigorously as it remembers what once was and what could be, and it gets up and starts jumping excitedly. But you kick that damn mutt right in its fucking ribcage until it runs away back into the dark and decrepit basement. That's Quake. You have one of the most revolutionary FPS game series with an almost unparalleled depth and theoretical skill ceiling, both in its genre and gaming overall, now reduced to a measly community that, to boot, is split across 5 different games. All of which excellent, with subtle differences that may not seem relevant in theory but are completely game changing at the higher levels of skill. Still, that's 5 different games all of which hard to get into and infinitely harder to master. And QuakeCon, the tournament that reinforced the legacy of Quake, the legacy of id Software and the legacy of competitive gaming in the West, it used to be its StarLeague, its International, its LCS, its WCS. It wasn't just a convention with a fan-service tournament tacked onto it, it was considered the biggest and most prestigious tournament in Quake, that the top European players would attend to face off against the American ones. And now QuakeCon is a farce. It's a convention that for some reason continues to hold a Quake tournament, even though they are not putting the least bit of effort or interest into running; to the point where it's only announced like 2 weeks before fact; to the point where there's massive delays and down-time; to the point where it feels like an unwanted, tacked-on freak sideshow that's merely "tolerated" instead of supported or organized by the id staff; to the point where meaningless filler like raffles and various other random things are given much more attention than the pro players who bust their ass off every day to train and hone their skills, not for the money (which has shrunk considerably over the years) but because they love it. And this is how they're repaid, by the people whose legacy they've helped build essentially pissing all over them and their passion. It's a disgrace, it truly is... At least Blizzard still has ONE game they still care about, and as long as they don't run it into the ground with the same nonchalance as id did to Quake, they'll still be better. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
I do maintain that Blizz didn't care much about eSports beyond lip service during most of WoL, as evidenced by the balancing around gold league, ignoring the eSport's scenes concerns re: maps etc etc etc. They're clearly made a bit of a come around since late WoL and into HotS. But when I said they don't (currently) care about eSports, I mean in the sense that they don't seem to be competing very hard to be the One True eSport vs LoL, as they see eSports as community building and advertising for LotV and whenever they decide to make SC3. I think Blizz's big greedy plan for SC2 originally was the map marketplace (remember that, when they were going to let people sell customs and take a cut?), but that obviously fell apart. So, provided everyone in BW played nice and gave Blizz a fee, there's not much financial difference between pro BW and pro SC2 (remember, KeSPA wasn't paying Blizz, but Sonic is). So I don't think they'd be inclined to kill a cash inflow out of spite. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
People don't wanna see your dog anymore. There's no comparison here. The responsibility is on the fans to create the tournament they want. If there's no fans who wanna do that then this is what you get. Where is the injustice? You reap what you sow. In Brood War's case, Blizzard took all the fruits of the Korean scene's labours and the salted the lands so that nothing but their new salty game could grow. Your complaint about how the tournament was run sloppily is valid, and I'm sure that's disappointing for people who still love Quake and feel that's the only thing a year they have to look forward to... but shit at least no one is telling them not to try and do better. Top foreigners complained constantly about how WCG was run, and it was the biggest tournament for them, and eventually WCG cut out Brood War completely when they thought the foreign scene was competitive enough anymore... but I never really shat on WCG because of that. People always had the option of doing something better, and sometimes that happened (TSL could be an example). It's way better for a game to peter out because the fans left / lost the motivation to keep it alive, than because the developer wants to make a statement about the IP rights it's about to start throwing its weight around with (after over 10 years of a laissez-faire policy), messing with tonnes of people's jobs. I read your whole post and I really don't agree. You can blame id for having a badly run tournament, but you can't blame them for Quake not being an eSport... | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On August 31 2013 05:30 Chef wrote: Quake has always been a hard game to spectate. It's the only FPS I've been able to follow at all, since it was 1v1. FPSes generally, especially team-based, are a mess to spectate. In Brood War's case, Blizzard took all the fruits of the Korean scene's labours and the salted the lands so that nothing but their new salty game could grow. ???? | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 31 2013 05:30 Chef wrote: Quake has always been a hard game to spectate. No? On August 31 2013 05:30 Chef wrote: People don't wanna see your dog anymore. There's no comparison here. The responsibility is on the fans to create the tournament they want. No? The community still handles Quake far better than id, just like the BW community handles BW far better than Blizzard did. On August 31 2013 05:30 Chef wrote: In Brood War's case, Blizzard took all the fruits of the Korean scene's labours and the salted the lands so that nothing but their new salty game could grow. I thought there's still an amateur league going on with plenty of former Kespa pros? On August 31 2013 05:30 Chef wrote: I read your whole post and I really don't agree. You can blame id for having a badly run tournament, but you can't blame them for Quake not being an eSport... It has been an eSport for the longest time. And then suddenly id decided they don't give a shit about it anymore. Which coupled with the massive popularity of games like CoD 4 and onward, lead to a massive decline. Just like Blizzard's legal battles with Kespa and the advent of LoL lead to a massive decline in BW. The difference is that Blizzard tried to kill Brood War to make way for StarCraft 2. id killed Quake to make way for... absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. No new game, no new service, nothing. I feel like you took my post and strawman'd it to oblivion. I'm not trying to argue about which eSport should have been more successful or that it's exclusively id's fault that Quake isn't as big as it was in its prime. All I'm saying is that you can't accuse Blizzard of not caring about eSports when they're still actively supporting at least one competitive scene. Even if it's not the one we like, even if it's not the better one. Compared to id who are supporting none at all and have proven time and time again that they do not give a single flying fuck anymore. We're all salty. But you're jumping to the wrong conclusions and fail to look at things from a wider perspective. I'm done now. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
You're saying id killed Quake, but all they did was stop making stuff for it. That's about as indirect as it gets. Blizzard played an active role. I thought there's still an amateur league going on with plenty of former Kespa pros? That's not eSports, that's not a stable scene with players who have salaries to live off. That's a bunch of people playing tournaments for a game with a prize pool, like almost all competitive games have. There is no structure or support and there's nothing Sonic can do about that unless Samsung and KT and SKT all suddenly decide they want to sponsor BW teams again, which isn't happening anytime soon. You're arguing about something that was never a professional institution. Again, it's not the same at all, you're the one trying to compare two things that have nothing in common. I don't know how you can defend that Quake is a good spectator's game. If it were we wouldn't be talking about this cause it'd be really popular. A random person can watch 20 minutes and feel like they've gotten all they can get out of it. The variety in it is too subtle for a casual player, even those who played a bit of Quake back in the day. You can't simultaneously say the game is dying because there's too many casual players not smart enough for it and that it's an easy game to get into and watch at the same time. If it's all relative, then Quake having good spectator value means BW had god-like spectator value ;p I think even BW was just 'pretty good.' BW could make people who only played casually watch it and want to play more or at least see more. Quake I think you already had to be a decent player to get anything out of it. Did you ever meet anyone who watched hours and hours of Quake but was the equivalent of D- in BW? | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
The greatest protoss in OSL history. My favourite protoss Jangbi! Best of luck in all your future endeavours. I hope to see you play BW sometime in the future... | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
But for some part i think you're not really arguing against eachother, but against some frustration, coming up from misread posts. | ||
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