[R] Racial Balance from Top Players

On May 26 2006 08:42 gravity wrote:
If Jon Finkel said that going second was usually better in Magic: the Gathering (to make an even dorkier analogy), he would be wrong.

If Draco or Mondragon say PvZ is balanced when all the statistics say otherwise, they are wrong. It doesn't matter how good they are.

On May 26 2006 08:49 exalted wrote:


Just to play Devil's advocate, it really depends a lot on metagame. For example, I believe during Onslaught Block Constructed, it was generally accepted that going 2nd in certain matchups was the correct play (Slide vs Slide? I only played T2 so I don't know what other matchups going 2nd would be applicable in) Also going 2nd is often good in slower draft formats.

On May 26 2006 08:49 exalted wrote:


Just to play Devil's advocate, it really depends a lot on metagame. For example, I believe during Onslaught Block Constructed, it was generally accepted that going 2nd in certain matchups was the correct play (Slide vs Slide? I only played T2 so I don't know what other matchups going 2nd would be applicable in) Also going 2nd is often good in slower draft formats.

What I'm making in this point is that there is rarely a clear cut answer and most of the "imbalance" comes from metagame. Players who learn Black exclusively in Chess are at an inherent disadvantage from going 2nd, but can easily overcome in up into the highest caliber of play. I think it is pointless to let these little "edges" make you paranoid about what race or matchups you choose to play, becuase in reality they are quite irrelevant (I'm not talking about large imbalances, i.e. Gorky Island)

From a scientific empirical view though, this certainly is an interesting topic to discuss, but the last thing I need to hear after I beat a Protoss as Zerg is "imba matchup, w/e"

On May 26 2006 08:51 exalted wrote:
Another point that I think would be interesting to point out is that progamers play FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, from perfection. So even at their level of play imbalance is only a limiting belief that can be overcome with superior play (albeit with diminishing returns, it is excruciatingly straining both physically and mentally to go beyond the levels they are already playing at).

On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously.

On May 26 2006 08:51 exalted wrote:
Another point that I think would be interesting to point out is that progamers play FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, from perfection. So even at their level of play imbalance is only a limiting belief that can be overcome with superior play (albeit with diminishing returns, it is excruciatingly straining both physically and mentally to go beyond the levels they are already playing at).

On May 26 2006 09:14 gokai wrote:

Quoted for truth. I was pondering about this and your the first person to say it out loud.

On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:

I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts.

Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion.

On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o

And I agree.

On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:

Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis.

On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o

And I agree.

On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:

Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth.

On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:

Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on.

I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play.

Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.

On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0

It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.

On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:
*snipe*

On May 26 2006 09:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke.

I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all.

I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps.

There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more).

This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major.

On May 26 2006 04:42 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Uhm, 90%?
R-Point favours P, guillotine favours P, every single island favours P (islands used in big leagues: Hall of Valhalla, Estrella, Forbidden Zone, Isles of Siren, gorky, charity.. and the list goes on), forte is either equal or in Ps favour. Martians Cross favours P I *think*.

Requiem is about equal, 815 seems to be about equal, gaema gowon and nostalgia used to be about equal, gaia is equal, azalea is equal or close to it, arcadia seems to be about equal, luna is about equal.

Rush hour I'm not sure about, but I guess it has pretty bad stats.. Dahlia I'm not sure about but I think it favours zerg.

Maps that favour zerg:
Bifrost, mercury, ride of valkyries, arizona, cultivation period, peaks of baekdoo (from what we have seen so far, although very limited), legacy of char, jungle story, Korhal of Ceres..

Hm.

Anyway, I'm just bitter because nal_ra lost, I don't even think the maps played much of a role in todays games - JJu is very good =/

On May 26 2006 09:40 gravity wrote:
FA, in that statement I was referring to the last two years, which have seen a major rise of Zerg strength in the post-Boxer/rise-of-July-and-co. era. In the last two years, the only P to win a starleague has been Anytime's primarily anti-Terran effort. Even including this, the likelihood of P winning only 0 or 1 out of the 11 Starleagues in the last 2 years is 7% if you assume that the races are balanced, which gives a 93% chance that the lack of Protoss performance is due to imbalance, and not just bad luck or a "bad patch" as you suggest. Nevermind that Ra is hardly going through a "bad patch"; he's playing at the top of his game right now.

On May 26 2006 09:40 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Oh so in that case TvZ and PvT are also imbalanced?

On May 26 2006 09:43 gravity wrote:

Possibly, but not neccessarily. The only thing the Starleague-winner stats say for sure is that P < the other races combined. It doesn't necessarily prove that Z is at fault rather than T, but other stats such as the PGTour stats suggest that in general PvZ is worse than PvT for Terran, pro-gamer Ps tend to be worse at PvZ than pro-gamer Zs percent-wise, etc.

On May 26 2006 09:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Uhm, how does P < the other races combined when P>T T>Z Z>P?

-_-

On May 26 2006 09:47 hasuprotoss wrote:
What I think people actually don't realize is that some progamers seem to be just "special" at one matchup. I think Ra has an outstanding PvZ record on Ongamnet, but a below 50% record in PvT.

And Boxer could be another example with his unfair TvZ record, but sub-50% TvP record.

On May 26 2006 09:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:

I'll say this - if you can come up with a way to improve PvZ balance, feel free to share it, it's not like I would be categorically against it (I used to/still do think that making the reaver attack upgrade give them +28 so they could 1 shot kill lurkers until they get 3 armor would be a good thing ).

On May 26 2006 09:47 gravity wrote:

P < the other races combined because they've won 1 SL out of 11, the one win under unusual circumstances at that. That was my point. "P>T T>Z Z>P" is a cliche, it doesn't mean that P has the same edge over T (if any, at the pro level) that Z has over P.

On May 26 2006 09:52 gravity wrote:

I think that change might be a little too subtle. Changing Storm back to 128 would be worth trying, in my opinion. Sure, it would be a big change, but what's the worst that could happen; P wins 2 MSL in a row instead of 3 Terran or Zerg in a row? I think people have gotten so used to P losing that they'd think the game had become imbalanced in P's favour if it was actually balanced for once. Besides, if that change was really too big in practice, you could try something like increasing templar movement speed, or your suggestion, instead.

On May 26 2006 09:53 Orome wrote:
Well obviously you can never generally say that a matchup is imbalanced in Starcraft, as a game's imbalance doesn't depend solely on the races, but also on the map the game is played on. If you make a statement about a matchup as a whole, you always have to include the map (i.e. P>Z on Gorky).

Following from that it would seem as though PvZ's imbalance was really just map-dependant, some maps favour P and some favour Z. While this is true, you also can't help but notice that it's a lot harder to make maps favour P (especially when you're not trying to make it T>P). Pretty much all the new original maps have turned out Z>P, which is sad, because a map like Peaks of Baekdu makes for really cool games.

So yeah, my take on the subject is that the imbalance depends on the map, but the maps tends to be either Z>P or T>P and because we had a Terran domination for so long, map-makers made their maps Z>P, rather than T>P (this will change again soon imo). I have no idea how to fix this though...

On May 26 2006 09:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:

But WHY should we only count this time period? If we count overall, zergs have won much less than protoss.

On May 26 2006 10:31 BlackDevil wrote:
What has been said so far:

- Pro-Players get a good idea of race balance
- Statistics reflects the actual winning rates of each race

Anyone has thought of yet another element?

- Change in strategy

I mean the discovery of the terran wall-in changed many odds, as did the use of arbiters in PvT. Before the invention of such strategies, EVERYONE contributing to the statistics ignores elements that determine the outcome and therefore the race balance. So even if statistics and opinions say that ZvsP is imba, what if tomorrow there would be a new element changing that matchup?

Just give it a thougt...

On May 26 2006 09:14 gokai wrote:

Quoted for truth. I was pondering about this and your the first person to say it out loud.

Man, imagine if we somehow evolve to have 2000 apm. The progaming scene would be sooooo different.

On May 26 2006 09:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:
This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major.

On May 26 2006 09:53 Orome wrote:
Well obviously you can never generally say that a matchup is imbalanced in Starcraft, as a game's imbalance doesn't depend solely on the races, but also on the map the game is played on. If you make a statement about a matchup as a whole, you always have to include the map (i.e. P>Z on Gorky).

On May 26 2006 10:34 StRyKeR wrote:


Actually, Starcraft registers movements at a rate of 1/20 per second, so the theoretical APM max is 60*20 = 1200 per minute.

On May 26 2006 10:10 mdb wrote:


Hey FA, I thought your hands hurt. How can you write so much :D

On May 26 2006 10:01 gravity wrote:

I'd say the last couple of years are more informative for a few reasons:

1. Some of the very oldest leagues (including 2 P wins) were played under 1.07
2. Boxer's appearance on the scene caused a Terran boom, giving P something to take advantage of (since P is equal to or has a slight edge over T).

and most importantly

3. The recent past is a better predictor of the future than the far past. Therefore, the fact that P won a good number of leagues several years ago isn't very reassuring when they're doing badly now.

On May 26 2006 10:23 nArAnjO wrote:
Well, just to let you know that Julyzerg said in a recent interview that in fact he thinks that ZvP favours zerg. There's no agreements even in the top players and July is clearly better than anyone u can ask here (ie testie, fa, etc)

On May 26 2006 10:39 Random() wrote:


It's harder, more stressful, easier to fuck up if you play P in ZvP, but that's not imbalance, you whiners Some strange logic you have What IS imbalance, then, in your opinion?

On May 26 2006 10:34 StRyKeR wrote:


Actually, Starcraft registers movements at a rate of 1/20 per second, so the theoretical APM max is 60*20 = 1200 per minute.

On May 26 2006 12:59 SuperJongMan wrote:
This has got to be one of the shittiest threads in forever.
Come on, imbalance in SC? Unheard of -_-;; People are just bitter cuz Tosses got creamed on this season. Even on PL, bo1 PvZs are not one sided either... geez, imbalance arguments are so stupid and hurt my head.
Just 2 months ago people were riding Pusan's dick saying WOO MACRO SPIRIT.. and cuz he got wiped (LOL, not a fan -_-) ppl forget the toss enthusiasm just awhile ago. Or Anytime for that matter.

Here's my prophecy... Stork will finally realize his full potential and he will be Hero Toss #2.
If not, we still have kingdom who is top 4 MSL ~_~ Woo woo!
And July saying ZvP favors Z is probably why he is #1 ZvP user in the world -_-;; It's like Boxer saying hey I feel T > Z -_-;; no fuckin duh?

On May 26 2006 13:38 polarwolf wrote:
So what? You bash Sea because he tries to copy oov's style?
I think all in all, OOV is the most successful player of starcraft ever.
He won 2 OSL and 3 MSL, that is outstanding, no other player managed to do that, except of Nada.

Maybe this gives a new influence to this thread:

Is macro the most important part of starcraft? We all know, that OOV's and Nada's gaming style depends heavily on macro...

And your smart players were not as successful as them.

On May 26 2006 14:02 polarwolf wrote:
HMM, what do you mean, frozenarbiter?
You think this is kind of coincidence? If they had met other gamers, they wouldn't have won?
Yeah, this is always a problem of tourneys with KO-System. I think it would be more fair to make a league like in soccer, but it would not be such interesting and dramatic to watch...

So, I could argue that anytime[gm] was dependent on not meeting a zerg player on his way to the OGN title (expect for group stage)

=> so again: p < z ???

On May 26 2006 14:02 polarwolf wrote:
HMM, what do you mean, frozenarbiter?
You think this is kind of coincidence? If they had met other gamers, they wouldn't have won?
Yeah, this is always a problem of tourneys with KO-System. I think it would be more fair to make a league like in soccer, but it would not be such interesting and dramatic to watch...

So, I could argue that anytime[gm] was dependent on not meeting a zerg player on his way to the OGN title (expect for group stage)

=> so again: p < z ???

On May 26 2006 15:26 SuperJongMan wrote:


Boxer too had hit a slump once long ago. Right during July's rise, which is why I personally think he won.

Ra's slump is debatable, if you look at OSL and MSL yeah he was absent for a very long time but no one considered Ra anything short of a top level Toss.

Kingdom too seems to be emerging from Mediocricy again.

There has never been a truly consistant SC only-top finishing player, but yeah, you're right.. Boxer is the closest thing to one and Nada. I think if Nada didn't have issues at home, he would still be right up here. He'll be back soon, I sense it. His recent games look much sharper than when he was falling apart.

Everyone needs time to adapt and evolve.

On May 26 2006 15:26 SuperJongMan wrote:

Ra's slump is debatable, if you look at OSL and MSL yeah he was absent for a very long time but no one considered Ra anything short of a top level Toss.

On May 26 2006 09:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Np, Gokai


Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke.

I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps.

There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more).

This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major.



I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here:

This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ

Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze.

Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W
Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow).


Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice)
Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center.

Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games.

Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx
Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest.

Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague.
Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games).

He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings.
Didn't watch.

Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague.
I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map.
Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe.

Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely).
Didn't watch these.

MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;<


Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague.

BO3+s Ps have lost:
Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost.

Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think.

Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0

Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers

Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too)
Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char?
Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?)
Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle).

Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006)

Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period.

If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow?

A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post:
Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good.
Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck).

Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least)
Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order.
Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order.

Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing

I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : >

I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind).

Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O


Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..?

In summary:

Starleagues won/top 3 finishes:

Terran:
Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1)
Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2)
Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1)
Sync 1 (OGN 1)
Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1)
Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1)

Protoss:

Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC)
Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1)
Garimto 2 (OGN 2)
Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1)
Anytime 1 (OGN 1)
Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1)
Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1)
Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN)

Zerg:
July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2)
Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1)
IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1)
Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2)
Junwi 3rd place 1
Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1)
The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D)

WCG Winners:
Terran:

Boxer 2 (2001, 2002)
Xellos 1 (2004)
Elky 2nd place 1 (2001)
Midas 2nd place 1 (2004)
Androide 2nd place 1 (2005)

Zerg:
Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name)
Ogogo 1 (2003)
Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002)
I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000)

Protoss:
ForU 1 (2005)
Fisheye (2003)

GhemTV:

Terran:
Nada 1
Oddysay 1

Protoss:
Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay)

Zerg:
H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so).

KT-KTF Premiere League:

Terran:
Nada 1 (winning the first one)
Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one)

Zerg:
Julyzerg 1 (winning the second)
Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second)

Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D

And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final?



Thx.

Thx also to hasuprotoss.


And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one.

So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem).

Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this:


I proved COMPLETELY 100% false.

I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran.

However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg?

I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important...

ETC.
Hard to explain I guess.

On May 26 2006 14:32 gokai wrote:
Sorry if I was bashing sea. I believed all the hype about him, so I got dissapointed when I saw his vods. I really respect this guy's skills. I agree with you, that macro based terrens (oov, nada) have proven to be more successful than micro/mind based terrens (Boxer). And sea being a new generation gamer chose wisely to focus on oov like macro. This kid has the potential to be oov 2.0 but currently he's only gotten to 0.7-0.8, but this is debateable. I really hope he sharpens his decision making skills next osl. Because when he reaches oov 1.0, it'll be prime time for him to take an OSL title. After that he'll have plenty of time to reach oov 2.0, if that is even possible.

On May 26 2006 15:34 gokai wrote:

What happen to Nada at his home? I had a hunch something happened to his personal life, which cause his slump.