EPTWCG bw rules: stop lurker not allowed - Page 2
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MaGnIfIcA
Norway2312 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
And this is BS basically. Quick tank+mnm+scan fast exp terrans are so much harder to beat without hold lurks =[ | ||
BroOd
Austin10833 Posts
On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: I know it has never been allowed, but it is total bullshit. Let me reiterate what I posted at GG.net If you make a group of 5 HT and one zealot in order to move them forward with attack move, is that a bug? If you group your science vessels with your tanks in order to move them is that a bug? By definition, these units should not be able to move with attack move, because they dont have that command, yet they can when in a control group with other units. Should we ban that because they do not have the command? A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic. Period. I have to disagree. The consequence of an action should always be taken into consideration. I'm intoxicated, but I find I oft think on a higher plane during such states. Anyway, follow me on this. Imagine you're holding a baseball. In instance A) you throw the ball at someone's lawn. In B), you throw it at their glass door. Disregarding intent, you're essentially performing the same action, only the result differs. The same applies to the "hold" command. Holding workers on your ramp in order to prevent access is a far cry from holding lurkers to tear apart a terran army. I have to agree with sadist in the fact that is very unfair. Lurkers weren't given a hold command for a reason, and I believe it's because it severely handicaps terran's early mobility vs smart zergs. We all saw what happened to Boxer. He played like a god damned GOD, and then got torn apart because he didnt expect hold-lurkers. I'm fully open to counter arguements, but the fact that people hold workers on ramps is completely irrelevant. | ||
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EarthSHaKe
Sweden73 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic. Period. True, but Hold has a different effect on a lurker than other units. A lurker stops attacking period under the hold command. No other attacking unit in the game does that. That makes hold lurker a special feature and a "bug" ... right? | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7231 Posts
Scenario 2: Hold SCV bug saves a game early by preventing a ramp break. How is it that we should allow 2 but ban 1? When you ask that the same action be judged only on its consequences you get into illogical situations like this. Plus you have a million problems with line drawing. The emphasis should NOT be placed on what may happen in the worst case/best case (as Brood did and I did to illustrate) it should instead be placed on what allowing it does overall for matchup balance. I believe it brings things closer to even. It's a move that's used infrequently (games/games played?) and it DEFINITELY does not tip the balance of TvZ away from T favor. Even in the games it is used it rarely results in an overwhelming advantage. What it really does is bring the matchup closer to overall balance. I wish there was something like this in PvZ. A little quirk that takes a reasonably balanced matchup and nudges it a little more in the even direction. EDIT: @superjongman Don't cloaked units like ghosts have strange behavior on stop and isn't it similar to the burrowed lurkers? | ||
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mnm
United States4493 Posts
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XG3
United States544 Posts
On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: I know it has never been allowed, but it is total bullshit. Let me reiterate what I posted at GG.net If you make a group of 5 HT and one zealot in order to move them forward with attack move, is that a bug? If you group your science vessels with your tanks in order to move them is that a bug? By definition, these units should not be able to move with attack move, because they dont have that command, yet they can when in a control group with other units. Should we ban that because they do not have the command? A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic. Period. Your argument would make sense if not for the fact that hold position does not stop any other unit from attacking enemies. It's a bug. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
Exploit the loophole WCG zergs!! | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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NoName
United States1558 Posts
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mnm
United States4493 Posts
It is a bug. That shouldn't even be disputed. Can someone contact one of them StarCraft progammers please? The game was not created so that you are supposed to hold lurkers with other units. Granted lurkers can be stopped by pressing s repeatedly. That is not a bug. But the fact that to keep the lurkers from attacking you have to use some roundabout way of doing it and Blizzard did not design it this way (its a side effect of the programming and not a direct effect/intentional) means it is a bug. (I'm curious as to what Excal's view on this is.) I think other people have different definitions of bugs.. as in.. the allowable moves in gameplay as opposed to those that shouldn't be allowed. That, however, is a whole nother issue. That isn't questioning whether or not it is a bug. It questions whether it should be outlawed or not. People have different opinions on this just as people have different opinions on many rules. Ultimately, it is the tournament director who gets to decide. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
hold lurker is bad. my personal view~ | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 13 2005 21:36 Sadist wrote: hold lurker is bullshit, terran basically cant laeve his base until vessel if you allow it, its really lame =) Scv-> build supply depot -> click -> scv -> build supply depot click, + there's really not a lot of places where a zerg could put his hold lurkers so you don't even have to check everywhere ;o Hold lurks are allowed in progaming leagues, they set the standards ;( | ||
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MadneZz
Sweden234 Posts
They fire as soon as enemies comes within range... Therefore the hold position lurker is a bug and should not be (ab)used. | ||
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Hot77.iEy
Finland1486 Posts
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Hwoarang
Korea (South)235 Posts
I tend not to use it cos i am bad at multi tasking and keeping an eye on the minimap and don't even realise the army has walked past it, so am better off just leaving the lurkers so they at least get some kills when the army first approach but whether it's intended or not (most likely not), it does give zerg a significant advantage, and as someone said, T gotta get a sci-ves before they can move out.. so I don't mind it being disallowed.. the scv under floating rax is also unfair in my view..and alsothere's the turret under the eng bay.. it's hard to draw the line.. as long as the rules are made well and clear before games should be ok PS but yeah allied mines should be banned ! | ||
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Raidern
Brazil3811 Posts
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RiSE
United States3182 Posts
WCG won't allow it, get over it. | ||
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DevAzTaYtA
Oman2005 Posts
hold position lurks maybe should not be allowed, but pressing S repeatedly should be, and since it's an offline event, they should be able to see this and make sure no one is cheating, or maybe bwchart can be used? -.- doing the same with goons under an arbiter is allowed, right?  oh and if you think stopping your lurks from firing creates significant imbalance, then why is it used in pro-gaming leagues? imo it only adds depth to the game. | ||
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