EPTWCG bw rules: stop lurker not allowed - Page 3
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DevAzTaYtA
Oman2005 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27156 Posts
PS. To reiterate, maybe lurkers were given a roundabout way to hold for a reason. Im a little intoxicated, but I cant imagine they would eliminate one without taking away the other. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
If people are arguing that hold lurker with overlord should not be allowed, while the spam S technique should be, what about the attack-building-in-fog-of-war method? | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On November 14 2005 05:07 RaGe wrote: lol there are worse things, like in 2002(?) they obligated random players to tell their race in the first minute of the gameor something roflcopter ! lool ! wtf !? | ||
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
it's not like the observer over turret bug which prevents the turret from firing at all, it's not like the floating drone bug or whatever like these. i'm not sure, but i don't think this is a rule that was ever in use in any other tournament. i can't believe how they took this decision, it's totally stupid. and unfair. | ||
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a-game
Canada5085 Posts
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CoralReefer
Canada2069 Posts
On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: I know it has never been allowed, but it is total bullshit. Let me reiterate what I posted at GG.net If you make a group of 5 HT and one zealot in order to move them forward with attack move, is that a bug? If you group your science vessels with your tanks in order to move them is that a bug? By definition, these units should not be able to move with attack move, because they dont have that command, yet they can when in a control group with other units. Should we ban that because they do not have the command? A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic. Period. I think the difference is that the high templar still don't attack, they are just given a move command instead, an ability they already have on their own. Whereas with the hold lurker command, lurkers are given a new ability. I guess it depends on what race you use. I know that when I play terran, it can be frustrating to lose a buttload of marines without using detection (which is sort of similar for PvT and mines except obs are much cheaper and mines don't kill you over and over again  ). | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3685 Posts
On November 13 2005 23:16 Random() wrote: Stop lurker is a bug How the fuck is that a bug? You can hold positions with any units, such as marines+scv. Isnt that the same bug then? But that is allowed.. noob | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
When you go out, vessel in your army or not, you always scan for flanking from the zerg, for lurkers ahead, etc. (thats what i do and think its the most logical thing to do). Imo, hold position lurkers are just a way to exploit either the stupidity and overmechanics or the unawareness and unpreparedness of the terran; theres a reason to why this is allowed in korean tournaments. I myself play tvz more than pvz and i really havent in my whole life had any trouble with stop lurkers even not from lack of trying from my zerg opponent. | ||
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racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
Hold position, on any unit, does not stop them from attacking. It stops them from moving. On the lurker, it stops them from attacking. That is breaking what hold position does. There is no way to stop any other units from attacking, save for spamming S. That's why it's a bug. That's why its not like grouping things without attack move with things that do. That unit is following the order with the rest, and if it could attack it would. A lurker being issued with hold reacts differently from every other unit being issued the hold command. If hold position worked on a lurker it would respond the exact same way as without it because it is rooted to the ground. What you want is a hold attack, which does not exist in the game of the starcraft except through this bug. It's not the same as holding other units | ||
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Sadist
United States7310 Posts
Terran 2 rax exps, zerg goes 2-3 hatch relatively fast lurker, so by the time your first group of marines with medics get their, the eggs have hatched for maybe 10 seconds already. Zerg puts lurkers outyside of their base far away from their sunks, you put your marines outside their base, right ontop of their bullshit hold lurkers, then they unhold and all of your units die. Then they rape you with their ling lurker Or what kimwanchul did quite often, 1 hatch lurker on mercury with hold, which beat androide a few times because really its quite gay and youc ant leave your base vs hold lurker. | ||
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Overlord
Romania651 Posts
On November 14 2005 06:24 racebannon wrote: You guys seriously don't know what hold POSITION is if you think it's a fine bug. Hold position, on any unit, does not stop them from attacking. It stops them from moving. On the lurker, it stops them from attacking. That is breaking what hold position does. There is no way to stop any other units from attacking, save for spamming S. That's why it's a bug. That's why its not like grouping things without attack move with things that do. That unit is following the order with the rest, and if it could attack it would. A lurker being issued with hold reacts differently from every other unit being issued the hold command. If hold position worked on a lurker it would respond the exact same way as without it because it is rooted to the ground. What you want is a hold attack, which does not exist in the game of the starcraft except through this bug. It's not the same as holding other units You miss a thing: there are units that do not attack, when holding position: for example overlords. So there are two types of "hold position": for attacking and for non-attacking units. When you select your lurk together with your overlord, you "give" him the ability to hold position without attacking. When you select scv and marine, u give the scv the ability to hold position and attack. If you would select overlord and scv then scv's would hold position and don't attack. This could be usefull when doing the rax over scv trick, cause sometimes scv's attack their units which the backfire and get in your base. In conclusion there are two types of hold position, and hold lurker shoudl be allowed imho. Also SSSS shoud be allowed. Fog of war method, and shift+click methods are obviously bugs on the other hand. | ||
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Overlord
Romania651 Posts
On November 14 2005 06:37 Sadist wrote: why is this even a debate, heres a clear cut reason why hold lurker shoudl be banned. Terran 2 rax exps, zerg goes 2-3 hatch relatively fast lurker, so by the time your first group of marines with medics get their, the eggs have hatched for maybe 10 seconds already. Zerg puts lurkers outyside of their base far away from their sunks, you put your marines outside their base, right ontop of their bullshit hold lurkers, then they unhold and all of your units die. Then they rape you with their ling lurker Or what kimwanchul did quite often, 1 hatch lurker on mercury with hold, which beat androide a few times because really its quite gay and youc ant leave your base vs hold lurker. This could happen when the zerg is using 20-30 burrowed lings too, wtf. Why is one ok and the other not? There ARE counters to this, u are welcome to use them: eng bay cancel, scan, firebat splash (in case of lings). And no, i'm not zerg, am an impartial random player  | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28733 Posts
so it's not the same as allied mine at all, even tho I know people didn't make the comparison here, but imo, the possibility of hold lurk helps balance tvz, while allied mine breaks tvt. and that's why I think it's bullshit that it's not allowed. | ||
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greatmeh
Canada1964 Posts
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racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
On November 14 2005 07:14 Overlord wrote: You miss a thing: there are units that do not attack, when holding position: for example overlords. So there are two types of "hold position": for attacking and for non-attacking units. When you select your lurk together with your overlord, you "give" him the ability to hold position without attacking. When you select scv and marine, u give the scv the ability to hold position and attack. If you would select overlord and scv then scv's would hold position and don't attack. This could be usefull when doing the rax over scv trick, cause sometimes scv's attack their units which the backfire and get in your base. In conclusion there are two types of hold position, and hold lurker shoudl be allowed imho. Also SSSS shoud be allowed. Fog of war method, and shift+click methods are obviously bugs on the other hand. That is not two types of hold position at all, that's a ridiculous conclusion that very conveniently serves zerg players. There is one hold position. It stops a unit from moving. Any unit with an attack continues to attack, but will not move. The lurker is the only unit with an attack component that will not use it when the hold command is issued to him. Why should a unit that doesn't even have hold position get this special treatment, and have a command work differently ONLY for it, for a reason other than it being a bug in the game? The fact is that there is way more reason to ban it than to allow it. I don't mind it either way, but I really hate poorly thought out reasons to keep it in the game and people desperately trying to make it appear as though it's not a bug in the game. If ladders and tournaments want to ban this bug, zerg players should accept it. If they want to allow it, rejoice and use it to your heart's content. But you cannot argue it and you should be grateful it is so widely accepted as it is because it is a huge bug in the game. | ||
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CCHS
United States614 Posts
On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: I know it has never been allowed, but it is total bullshit. Let me reiterate what I posted at GG.net If you make a group of 5 HT and one zealot in order to move them forward with attack move, is that a bug? If you group your science vessels with your tanks in order to move them is that a bug? By definition, these units should not be able to move with attack move, because they dont have that command, yet they can when in a control group with other units. Should we ban that because they do not have the command? A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic. Period. Tru Dat | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
The only reason why there is controversy on this matter is because there are several different ways to do it, and since it doesn't really hurt the game, it's usually allowed. | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
IMO they let it be b/c they realized it's good for game balance. | ||
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