On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: I know it has never been allowed, but it is total bullshit. Let me reiterate what I posted at GG.net
If you make a group of 5 HT and one zealot in order to move them forward with attack move, is that a bug?
If you group your science vessels with your tanks in order to move them is that a bug?
By definition, these units should not be able to move with attack move, because they dont have that command, yet they can when in a control group with other units. Should we ban that because they do not have the command?
A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic.
Period.
Mani, debating symantical definitions of what a "bug" is is completely irrelavent in the context of this arguement. HP lurks break the game just as bad as allied mines. In fact, they work almost identically in terms of consequence. That is a good comparison, not HTs being able to attack move.
If you really believe that's the case, make lurks move with attack move and patch HP lurk so it can't be done. Fixed right?
On November 15 2005 19:54 Grass.nS) wrote: The only unit that Blizzard intended to not fire when units are within range is the ghost and only when cloaked and in the stop or move command, but it DOES fire when put under hold position.
actually, it DOES NOT. except if it was not cloaked. when cloaked, the only way to make ghosts attack is right-clicking or clicking "A" and then left-clicking a unit/building.
You're wrong. They do attack anything in range when cloaked and under hold position.
As far to it being a bug or not, you could always ask Blizzard on their forums what they think and take their word as law. They designed the game, not us.
With that said, Blizzard does not own WCG and WCG are free to make their own rules as they see fit as they are the entity which promotes the event and awards the prizes.
If someone said "Hey, I'll give you a few grand if you win a few starcraft matches without using Hold Lurkers" would you take the chance to get the money?
Sure, why not?
Many people posting are not competing in the WCG finals. Let those competing petition for it to be allowed to the promoters. Their voices are the only voices who count in the matter besides those who run the event and if they choose to be silent then let them.
My personal feeling is that the "pro league" debate is somewhat pointless as the three korean progamers don't play zerg anyways, do they?
I think some of the other players have played in korean leagues, but unless XellOs is after the nickname "The Cheesy Zerg" then I don't think we'll be seeing him play as a Hold Lurk Zerg-master.
It is perfectly relevant to this discussion. In fact it is the only relevant thing. This isnt being disallowed because it is an "unfair advantage" or that "it is too powerful", it is being banned as a bug. So, me giving my opinion that it is NOT a bug is my argument for why it should be allowed.
Allied mines breaks the rules of the game because the player goes into an OUT OF GAME menu and manipulates settings already laid out in the rules. ie. one on one matchup. That is completely different than using in game AI to prevent a unit from firing.
Lastly, you say patch etc, to make it fixed. I dont think it is broken.
On November 13 2005 23:19 Manifesto7 wrote: I know it has never been allowed, but it is total bullshit. Let me reiterate what I posted at GG.net
If you make a group of 5 HT and one zealot in order to move them forward with attack move, is that a bug?
If you group your science vessels with your tanks in order to move them is that a bug?
By definition, these units should not be able to move with attack move, because they dont have that command, yet they can when in a control group with other units. Should we ban that because they do not have the command?
A lurker not attacking as part of a control group under the hold command i not a bug, it is strategy. Just because it does a lot of damage does not dispute the logic.
Period.
Your argument would make sense if not for the fact that hold position does not stop any other unit from attacking enemies. It's a bug.
I wish I'd gotten to this thread earlier so I could be the one making this comment.
XG3 works for Blizzard now, so let's all consider this an official statement.
Why is it a characteristic of the unit? Because the Lurkers are cloaked?
DTs attack when holding position. So do Wraiths, Ghosts unfortunately, so do units cloaked by Arbiters....
To stop attacking is obviously not a feature that the Hold Position command was meant to have.
Therefor, it is a bug.
Hold Positioning worker units, though, isn't a bug. Attack-moving with 4 HTs and a Zealot isn't a bug either. Enabling these commands for all units when group-selected is a feature that Blizzard deliberately put into the game to relieve the inconvenience of grouping all units separately.
As for whether or not I believe these kind of bugs should be banned, I definitely don't. These kind of minor glitches can easily be replicated by accident in everyday play, so I think it's ridiculous to ban them.
Hm, why isn't 4 HTs and a zlot using attack-move not a bug? Doesn't attack-move mean the unit is supposed to attack whatever is in it's way on the way to it's destination? If it doesn't have an attack, then it should just use the move command. By using the attack-move command and not attacking whatever's in its way, it's kind of like breaking the purpose of attack-move. The same way hold lurker is breaking the purpose of hold position.
IMO hold lurker bug must be allowed, as a terran I must say its just easy to control ur enemy's lurkers... just have a little bit of timing, some scv scout at his choke and u will see if lurkers are going out for lunch... This bug is only useful at early game, until u get vessels. If u loss ur mm with this trick just change to protoss user If u want to be good u must be prepared for this tricks, its just my opinnion
it is a bug, but its a good bug imo, it adds a cool feature to the game. Hold lurker isn't really THAT good, tvz is already in favour of terran, no reason to make it worse...
bah, i just read that. When i was playing, i started seeing some reps with this hold lurker thing, i always thought people was doing that by spamming "S". So i did it that way. You just place some random lings around your group of lurkers then when you see some units coming, you can start spamming waiting for your opponent to walk thru your lurker, then you release the "S" button. I think it is not a bug when you do that by controlling lurker+overlord since you can do it by some other ways. In fact, an average terran can deal with that, and as many of you said, it is just usefull until vessels come out. Anyways, i think it is up to wcg players to discuss about this....
Hold lurker can be done manually. Allied mines CANNOT. If I move my entire army through the minefield the front units will take the damage only and the mines will eventually blow each other decreasing the effect, while when allied u may wait until his units are in the middle and crush them from all sides. Also no zealot minefield runthrough would be possible which is very useful in PvT. Mines cannot be controlled, alliance changes it.
Imho every burrowed unit should have a bonus button for hold attack or position or whatever. The reason is that if a unit is burrowed and attacked it auto unburrows which is a bullshit - this can also abused by firebats. Also workers could have a Hold button I don't see why not.
On November 16 2005 04:31 Patriot.dlk wrote: blizzard patch it plz
It was a bug that was found almost instantly because of the eae it happens in a normal game by accident. People used it and it was great fun and helped balancing the Terran/Zerg matchup. So Blizzard accepted it as a quirk and made it legal by not fixing a widely known and routinely used in TV matches quirk for several years.
Some people are either to young to know the saying: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it." or they just don't understand the consquences.
Anyhow, WCG disallowing it is just plainout wrong, they create their own version of BW for scrubs that is less balanced and less fun and also creates a hell of a difficulty to referee. Among higher level players there seems to be an understanding to just ignore teh great power of the WCG rule masters anyhow.
Plz man, don't cry imbalance cuz of stop lurker ZvT. That is the fuckin lamest whiniest lil piece of shit thing you can do. There are millions of zergs in millions of situtaitons that can beat terrans without using stop lurker. It's not like stop lurker is required to win. It does change balance in a game but it's the same way a well planned and executed pinch or a well timed tech hit can work.
And I still think stop lurk is diff cuz of the hold position - not attack deal. All other units attack in hold , yes even ghosts to those tryin to lie and bs their argument in. As for whatever WCG allows and disallows, it is their rules and I don't think stop lurker is that big a deal. How actively have we seen it in tournament play lately? It's being used in decreasing rates.
On November 16 2005 07:51 Konni wrote: With your arguments, Mani, allied mines should be allowed too. They're not even a bug.
There exist game modi that do not allow allied mines (1v1 or FFA I think). So banning it to be able to use observer slots is not really that big a change from 1v1 mode, just a convenience wrapup.
EPT
