On April 23 2012 23:25 Crownlol wrote: Excited to see this level of open-mindedness.
The fact is, the split from SSBM and SSBB ruined the smash community, and Source really hurt CS.
The quicker pros join the game that more people want to watch (thus monetizing it), the better.
I know you've been playing BW for 12 years, but the more open-minded the BW community is about switching to the newer, more popular game, the better.
Open-minded? Almost all BW players have tried SC2 at some point. There's certain things in BW that just made alot of sense imo. Designers probably never envisioned BW as a top-level competitive game, but it turned out that way. To completely ignore some of the things that made BW great makes SC2 really really hard for a lot of BW fans to accept. I mean yes, micro is there, macro is there. But you don't see defilers coming out at the last second to cast swarm to deny an area, nor do you see reaver harassment, or any sorts of equivalent. I'm really tired of this argument too. I'd just wish SC2 would change >.>
I would regard mmortal speed prism drops pretty much filling that role, not being entirely equivalent but filling some kind of similiar role. The new viper will be filling a close enough role of what the defiler had. Obviously you don't know shit. T_T
IMMORTAL drops? Who the hell drops immortals? I see Colossi drops more often than I see immortal drops. They were stylish for like two weeks in PvP and that's it.
The closest equivalent to Reaver drops in SC2 is hellion drops, and I don't understand how anyone with even a passing familiarity with either game could think otherwise. I guess baneling drops have a case to be made for them, but I've only ever seen reavers and hellions killing 20 workers in a shot.
sase does it quite often in all his match ups, he also uses prism/immortal micro in battles much like reaver/shuttle micro was used I bw, where micros damaged immortals by picking them up and messing up the ai and then dropping them, maximizing there damage output without them having to die. I've seen Sase do this many times, and winning battles through micro in situations where most other protoss players would've lost the battle and their immortals.
On April 23 2012 23:25 Crownlol wrote: Excited to see this level of open-mindedness.
The fact is, the split from SSBM and SSBB ruined the smash community, and Source really hurt CS.
The quicker pros join the game that more people want to watch (thus monetizing it), the better.
I know you've been playing BW for 12 years, but the more open-minded the BW community is about switching to the newer, more popular game, the better.
Open-minded? Almost all BW players have tried SC2 at some point. There's certain things in BW that just made alot of sense imo. Designers probably never envisioned BW as a top-level competitive game, but it turned out that way. To completely ignore some of the things that made BW great makes SC2 really really hard for a lot of BW fans to accept. I mean yes, micro is there, macro is there. But you don't see defilers coming out at the last second to cast swarm to deny an area, nor do you see reaver harassment, or any sorts of equivalent. I'm really tired of this argument too. I'd just wish SC2 would change >.>
I would regard mmortal speed prism drops pretty much filling that role, not being entirely equivalent but filling some kind of similiar role. The new viper will be filling a close enough role of what the defiler had. Obviously you don't know shit. T_T
IMMORTAL drops? Who the hell drops immortals? I see Colossi drops more often than I see immortal drops. They were stylish for like two weeks in PvP and that's it.
The closest equivalent to Reaver drops in SC2 is hellion drops, and I don't understand how anyone with even a passing familiarity with either game could think otherwise. I guess baneling drops have a case to be made for them, but I've only ever seen reavers and hellions killing 20 workers in a shot.
Uhh, many Korean protosses as well as top foreigners like Grubby and White-Ra regularly use the Immortal + Speed Prism in PvP. It's a viable build, not just a "tactic."
Also, the Immortal drop is better than the Siege Tank drop, the Hardened Shell is particularly useful in blocking Stalker shots, and trashing them with +armored hits. The Stalker is the main unit you want to deflect the Warp Prism, too. So it works quite well.
Colossus drop build isn't used by anyone at the top level - it's simply a tactic that's very underused. The only instance I remember seeing that at a high level was that memorable game where SaSe used Warp Prism pickup drop micro on a Colossus to stop a Zerg all in.
On April 24 2012 09:10 windsupernova wrote: Sadly stuff like Reaver drops won't be in SC2 ever. People on SC2 whine too much for something so explosive and volatile to make it into the game.
At MLG, a hellion drop killed 22 workers in literally one shot.
Also, "explosive and volatile" is a good descriptor of early-game ZvZ, ling-baneling wars. And while it's true that a lot of people hate ZvZ for that reason, it's been like that since release with no indication of change.
On April 24 2012 09:10 Ideas wrote: Honestly I thought the shredder was one of the coolest ideas they had for SC2 but then got rid of it.
That's funny because I also thought that was potentially the best new unit in HotS, and I haven't been following expansion news so I didn't know they removed it...
The shredder was an utterly stupid idea. The replicant was an awesome single-player unit and dumb multiplayer one. The Viper is decent, the oracle is awesome and easily the best unit in HotS. It's good that Blizzard is trying to cure deathballs in HotS, and it's good that they're throwing out their bad ideas, but let's not pretend they weren't bad ideas.
On April 23 2012 23:25 Crownlol wrote: Excited to see this level of open-mindedness.
The fact is, the split from SSBM and SSBB ruined the smash community, and Source really hurt CS.
The quicker pros join the game that more people want to watch (thus monetizing it), the better.
I know you've been playing BW for 12 years, but the more open-minded the BW community is about switching to the newer, more popular game, the better.
Open-minded? Almost all BW players have tried SC2 at some point. There's certain things in BW that just made alot of sense imo. Designers probably never envisioned BW as a top-level competitive game, but it turned out that way. To completely ignore some of the things that made BW great makes SC2 really really hard for a lot of BW fans to accept. I mean yes, micro is there, macro is there. But you don't see defilers coming out at the last second to cast swarm to deny an area, nor do you see reaver harassment, or any sorts of equivalent. I'm really tired of this argument too. I'd just wish SC2 would change >.>
I would regard mmortal speed prism drops pretty much filling that role, not being entirely equivalent but filling some kind of similiar role. The new viper will be filling a close enough role of what the defiler had. Obviously you don't know shit. T_T
IMMORTAL drops? Who the hell drops immortals? I see Colossi drops more often than I see immortal drops. They were stylish for like two weeks in PvP and that's it.
The closest equivalent to Reaver drops in SC2 is hellion drops, and I don't understand how anyone with even a passing familiarity with either game could think otherwise. I guess baneling drops have a case to be made for them, but I've only ever seen reavers and hellions killing 20 workers in a shot.
Immortal drops are popular but only used in pvp. It can be used to kill probes, stalkers or even snipe colossus.
Not sure what you mean they were stylish for only 2 weeks. Iv'e seen a game recently of JYP vs WhiteRa where they both opened speed prism with 2 immortals.
I guess they're more viable than I thought, but they're not even close to a reaver. A reaver can end the whole game in a single shot. Immortals can't. Only Hellions have anything like that potential (An overlord full of +2 banelings can wipe a mineral line, but not as an opener).
On April 24 2012 10:26 Tump wrote: Colossus drop build isn't used by anyone at the top level - it's simply a tactic that's very underused. The only instance I remember seeing that at a high level was that memorable game where SaSe used Warp Prism pickup drop micro on a Colossus to stop a Zerg all in.
Liquid'Hero uses them. He can't make the Colossus and interesting unit, but I have to respect him for trying.
Helion/storm/etc drops are never going to be like reaver drops because workers are valued much more in BW then they are in SC2. With mules/larva inject/etc, command centers/nexuses/hatcheries take over this role and have bcecome more valuable than they are in BW. So well that helion drop that just killed 15 workers might look pretty cool, the effect is never felt the same way that a reaver doing the same would.
i dont see how the oracle is the best unit in hots... i mean protoss needs a harass unit but that unit doesnt even kill workers and the mineral field can be destroyed in 5 seconds by 4 workers... it got potential but i dont know, its like the ability the oracle have that "reveals what unit the enemy is creating" come on... if i see a Fusion core and starports with tecnolab i wont think he is making mass medvacs, i think it need another ability, also i think protoss doenst need the remplicant but protoss in starcraft 2 does need a versatile unit (that was the point of the replicant) maybe one in the twilight council.
I dont think the oracle will be ass great as 2 reavers in a shuttle.
The only thing i see that is really really good for protoss is the recall in the nexus.
i liked the idea of the shreder but it was OP, its like a storm but permanently,.
also.. lets not make this thread a HotS disscusion.... lets return to the topic
On April 24 2012 10:41 Lefiathen wrote: i dont see how the oracle is the best unit in hots... i mean protoss needs a harass unit but that unit doesnt even kill workers and the mineral field can be destroyed in 5 seconds by 4 workers... it got potential but i dont know, its like the ability the oracle have that "reveals what unit the enemy is creating" come on... if i see a Fusion core and starports with tecnolab i wont think he is making mass medvacs, i think it need another ability, also i think protoss doenst need the remplicant but protoss in starcraft 2 does need a versatile unit (that was the point of the replicant) maybe one in the twilight council.
I dont think the oracle will be ass great as 2 reavers in a shuttle.
The only thing i see that is really really good for protoss is the recall in the nexus.
i liked the idea of the shreder but it was OP, its like a storm but permanently,.
also.. lets not make this thread a HotS disscusion.... lets return to the topic
On April 24 2012 10:59 Caihead wrote: Why is there SC2 balance / strategy discussion in the BW general forums >_>
Soon TeamLiquid is thinking of combing the SC2 forum and the BW forum into a single "Starcraft forum" . These post are the first step to having a forum where BW and SC2 live side by side in peace and harmony.
On April 24 2012 10:38 1Eris1 wrote: Helion/storm/etc drops are never going to be like reaver drops because workers are valued much more in BW then they are in SC2. With mules/larva inject/etc, command centers/nexuses/hatcheries take over this role and have bcecome more valuable than they are in BW. So well that helion drop that just killed 15 workers might look pretty cool, the effect is never felt the same way that a reaver doing the same would.
edit: unless it's really early on in the game
But it also costs you a lot less to do, which is why you'll see 5329839482349 hellion drops a game when a Terran goes mech. Losing 15 workers isn't *as* devastating, but it can still basically end a game right there.
For people who never watched SC2, i feel like it will be hard to just watch it. All those shadows, lights, flashy things. As a fairly neutral (wc3 was my first game for a long time), i find the 2D in BW much easier to (literally) see than the 3D in SC2.
On April 24 2012 11:24 Release wrote: For people who never watched SC2, i feel like it will be hard to just watch it. All those shadows, lights, flashy things. As a fairly neutral (wc3 was my first game for a long time), i find the 2D in BW much easier to (literally) see than the 3D in SC2.
That's actually quite interesting to hear. As a guy who tries to watch BW and wouldn't be able to really see the amazing micro that everyone describes or most of all read map like some people are able to, I've never really adjusted to it after watching SC2 for two years. It's quite frustrating sometimes and I have tried to watch Proleague in Korean but it would be pretty hard for me to read the game at all from just looking at the map or the game screen.
On April 24 2012 11:24 Release wrote: For people who never watched SC2, i feel like it will be hard to just watch it. All those shadows, lights, flashy things. As a fairly neutral (wc3 was my first game for a long time), i find the 2D in BW much easier to (literally) see than the 3D in SC2.
On April 24 2012 10:59 Caihead wrote: Why is there SC2 balance / strategy discussion in the BW general forums >_>
Soon TeamLiquid is thinking of combing the SC2 forum and the BW forum into a single "Starcraft forum" . These post are the first step to having a forum where BW and SC2 live side by side in peace and harmony.
No thanks, I dont think they will.But if they are indeed moving us, I hope that's down with other Sports and Games.
On April 24 2012 10:59 Caihead wrote: Why is there SC2 balance / strategy discussion in the BW general forums >_>
Soon TeamLiquid is thinking of combing the SC2 forum and the BW forum into a single "Starcraft forum" . These post are the first step to having a forum where BW and SC2 live side by side in peace and harmony.
No thanks, I dont think they will.But if they are indeed moving us, I hope that's down with other Sports and Games.
If this day ever occurs, I will be a sad man. I hope that this part of TL doesn't change at least. There's a lot of history in these forums!
On April 24 2012 09:10 windsupernova wrote: Sadly stuff like Reaver drops won't be in SC2 ever. People on SC2 whine too much for something so explosive and volatile to make it into the game.
At MLG, a hellion drop killed 22 workers in literally one shot.
Also, "explosive and volatile" is a good descriptor of early-game ZvZ, ling-baneling wars. And while it's true that a lot of people hate ZvZ for that reason, it's been like that since release with no indication of change.
Hellions drops are nothing like Reaver drops. Lets say you do a hellion drop and T backstabs your main, are you gonna lift your hellions and attack the army to defend? No you just leave them there, because hellions are useless except for killing workers. The dumbest part is that if you pull your workers, you are more likely to lose more, than if you just leave them there. At least a lurker has to burrow first giving you time to pull.
People always think the effectiveness and coolness of the Reaver drop is the potential to kill workers, I disagree, its the potential to completely annihilate an opponent (army, economy, structures, tech) with godlike micro.
On April 24 2012 09:10 windsupernova wrote: Sadly stuff like Reaver drops won't be in SC2 ever. People on SC2 whine too much for something so explosive and volatile to make it into the game.
At MLG, a hellion drop killed 22 workers in literally one shot.
Also, "explosive and volatile" is a good descriptor of early-game ZvZ, ling-baneling wars. And while it's true that a lot of people hate ZvZ for that reason, it's been like that since release with no indication of change.
Hellions drops are nothing like Reaver drops. Lets say you do a hellion drop and T backstabs your main, are you gonna lift your hellions and attack the army to defend? No you just leave them there, because hellions are useless except for killing workers. The dumbest part is that if you pull your workers, you are more likely to lose more, than if you just leave them there. At least a lurker has to burrow first giving you time to pull.
People always think the effectiveness and coolness of the Reaver drop is the potential to kill workers, I disagree, its the potential to completely annihilate an opponent (army, economy, structures, tech) with godlike micro.
Yeah, reavers aren't a one trick pony. There are so many different uses for them which makes them such an amazing unit. And it's all about how you handle it.
On April 24 2012 10:41 Lefiathen wrote: i dont see how the oracle is the best unit in hots... i mean protoss needs a harass unit but that unit doesnt even kill workers and the mineral field can be destroyed in 5 seconds by 4 workers
IF you see it. In BW, you have to keep an eye on your mineral patches because DTs don't give a "You're under attack" warning when they one-shot workers. A 45-second block on your mining is devestating, and the only way to catch it is to be paying close attention to your minerals. Thus, it makes the game more mechnically challenging, which is what people want.
On April 24 2012 10:38 1Eris1 wrote: Helion/storm/etc drops are never going to be like reaver drops because workers are valued much more in BW then they are in SC2. With mules/larva inject/etc, command centers/nexuses/hatcheries take over this role and have bcecome more valuable than they are in BW.
Wat. If anything, that's backwards. BW values bases more, and SC2 values the actual workers more, because you can put many more workers on a base in SC2. That's generally considered SC2's biggest problem, in fact, because it means you're not spread out and thus can keep a deathball instead of splitting.
On April 24 2012 09:10 windsupernova wrote: Sadly stuff like Reaver drops won't be in SC2 ever. People on SC2 whine too much for something so explosive and volatile to make it into the game.
At MLG, a hellion drop killed 22 workers in literally one shot.
Also, "explosive and volatile" is a good descriptor of early-game ZvZ, ling-baneling wars. And while it's true that a lot of people hate ZvZ for that reason, it's been like that since release with no indication of change.
Hellions drops are nothing like Reaver drops. Lets say you do a hellion drop and T backstabs your main, are you gonna lift your hellions and attack the army to defend? No you just leave them there, because hellions are useless except for killing workers.
Hellions are great against Zealots (though they're rare against Protoss), ling/banes, marines, and other hellions. They also tank shots well for your tanks to move up, and can beat bio/tank in small numbers. I'll grant that reavers are generally a better unit if the RNG gods smile upon you, but it's not like Hellions are a one-trick pony.
The dumbest part is that if you pull your workers, you are more likely to lose more, than if you just leave them there. At least a lurker has to burrow first giving you time to pull.
You know what help with that? Not having all your workers on one hotkey. That would allow you to split them in different directions, avoiding the splash. You're a BW player, so you ought to be able to handle that.
EPT
