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On April 05 2012 04:27 JohnnyPG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:21 Dental Floss wrote:On April 05 2012 03:15 JohnnyPG wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 Archers_bane wrote:On April 04 2012 21:04 babysuperga wrote:
No!!! I watched SC2. It's so terrible!!!
I can't understand anything. I feel like its just comes down to one engagement that determines it all, maybe I have some bias but thats how I feel about watching pro sc2. Anyways, as long as their is still some BW, im happy Zergs also are doing some crazy multitasking babysitting all of the macro mechanics Oh boy, I can't wait to watch top zergs babysit their macro mechanics. Nothing more fun than watching efficient larva injects -_- By "babysitting all of the macro mechanics" I was referring to efficient larvae injects with creep spread while...you know...mutalisk harassing, scouting, all of the other things you would have to do to win as a pro Zerg. Good job being ridiculously literal though?
I think the point of contention here is that you are assuming that the people in the BW forum aren't familiar with SC2. The reality however is that the old-school BW fans were probably the most excited for SC2 of anyone and most of us in the BW forum have played and watched tons of SC2. I personally played ~1500 1v1s on the ladder and was diamond 2 seasons ago when I stopped playing.
The people posting in this thread aren't just randomly ripping on the game. They played it extensively and gave it more than a fair chance. I mean honestly if you picked 10 random people who post in the BW forum and 10 random people who post in the SC2 forum and made them play an SC2 tournament I can all but guarantee the BW people would win.
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On April 04 2012 21:06 Archers_bane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:04 babysuperga wrote:
No!!! I watched SC2. It's so terrible!!!
I can't understand anything. I feel like its just comes down to one engagement that determines it all, maybe I have some bias but thats how I feel about watching pro sc2.
There's still more truth to this then SC2 fans like to admit. "Get 3 bases and turtle to 200" is the best strat in that game, generally. There's apparently some attempt to move away from that in HotS by making units that are good but not good in the army to force smaller armies. It apparently helps a bit, but HotS is still a long-ass way off.
6m1hyg, though, actually fixes that and many other problems of SC2, which is why I've gotten evangelical over it. Not to the point where it's better than BW, but to the point where it's playing the same game. Sadly, it's not mainstream (yet), but I think the FRB Grand Tournament will be really exciting.
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On April 05 2012 07:14 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 21:06 Archers_bane wrote:On April 04 2012 21:04 babysuperga wrote:
No!!! I watched SC2. It's so terrible!!!
I can't understand anything. I feel like its just comes down to one engagement that determines it all, maybe I have some bias but thats how I feel about watching pro sc2. There's still more truth to this then SC2 fans like to admit. "Get 3 bases and turtle to 200" is the best strat in that game, generally. There's apparently some attempt to move away from that in HotS by making units that are good but not good in the army to force smaller armies. It apparently helps a bit, but HotS is still a long-ass way off. 6m1hyg, though, actually fixes that and many other problems of SC2, which is why I've gotten evangelical over it. Not to the point where it's better than BW, but to the point where it's playing the same game. Sadly, it's not mainstream (yet), but I think the FRB Grand Tournament will be really exciting.
While at it, remove the Xel' Naga towers too. One of the reason why BW need to keep your army mobile is because of the lack of battlefield sight. You need to constantly locate your armies to not get caught off guard by any backstab. With the introduction of the Xel'Naga towers, you are pretty much guaranteed to have the game end by a huge clash instead of small skimish there and there that requires you to put tons of practice time as it is APM intensive.
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Yeah, I never really liked the Xel Naga Towers myself. More often than not I think I get to the final stages in producing a map without ever having plans for adding a watchtower, and then feel pressured to add one. Everyone complains if there isn't one, and they have existed in pretty much all the maps so far. I hadn't thought too much about how it relates to deathballing and turtling, but I guess that's true.
I'm sure they can be used effectively from time to time, but I do think it would be good if most maps didn't have them.
Anyway, I hope SC2 can develop into something much better than it is in the future. I definitely don't think it's ready to completely replace BW yet, and I think BW has a lot left in it.
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This seems like a good time for my remaining favorite BW pros to hang up their mouses and go to college or something.
Look I'm not a huge fan of SC2, I admit that. But you'll see from my posts that I've watched quite a few SC2 events. I like IPL Fightclub, for example. I'll watch a couple of games when MLG is going. Very casual. But allow me to say this: if we momentarily suspend the argument of which game is more dynamic, we can all admit that SC2 is not nearly as enjoyable as an observer. During the gaps in action in SC2 games, we are constantly being bombarded with statistics and progress. MC's stalker blink is 50% upgraded, let's look at the income tabs, we can see Idra has lost X workers, Nestea has 15 broodlords morphing and exactly 12 more corruptors are about to hatch... There's a lot of suspense missing. The lack if information makes brood war a little intense. Like in a tense ZvP, a large battle ensues, protoss pushes zerg back, then the observer looks at a moving line on the minimap. We see 15 speedlots heading in, and the crowd and commentators go, "WAHH" In SC2, you already know when they're being built. Stats like how many workers were killed are cute, but not informative, beyond seeing that "a lot" of workers were killed, or seeing how unsuccessful some harasses are. But you don't need a worker kill tab to know these. And think about this: there was a famous game where Jaedong forgot to research consume vs Flash. No one knew about until the critical final battle. Everyone was like, "Holy shit!" But in SC2, if you keep somewhat track of all those progress tabs that are ALWAYS atop the screen, when someone forgets a critical upgrade, you hear commentators say, "HerO forgot storm research, this battle won't be pretty." Where's the fun? The outcomes of battles are a little more predictable because of all of this information. And here's an aesthetic complaint: unit animation of death in Brood War are sooo much more satisfying, vivid, loud. When I watch SC2, I see blobs of units die at a time. And when workers die they just kind of *poof* quietly.
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On April 05 2012 09:58 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
This seems like a good time for my remaining favorite BW pros to hang up their mouses and go to college or something.
Look I'm not a huge fan of SC2, I admit that. But you'll see from my posts that I've watched quite a few SC2 events. I like IPL Fightclub, for example. I'll watch a couple of games when MLG is going. Very casual. But allow me to say this: if we momentarily suspend the argument of which game is more dynamic, we can all admit that SC2 is not nearly as enjoyable as an observer. During the gaps in action in SC2 games, we are constantly being bombarded with statistics and progress. MC's stalker blink is 50% upgraded, let's look at the income tabs, we can see Idra has lost X workers, Nestea has 15 broodlords morphing and exactly 12 more corruptors are about to hatch... There's a lot of suspense missing. The lack if information makes brood war a little intense. Like in a tense ZvP, a large battle ensues, protoss pushes zerg back, then the observer looks at a moving line on the minimap. We see 15 speedlots heading in, and the crowd and commentators go, "WAHH" In SC2, you already know when they're being built. Stats like how many workers were killed are cute, but not informative, beyond seeing that "a lot" of workers were killed, or seeing how unsuccessful some harasses are. But you don't need a worker kill tab to know these. And think about this: there was a famous game where Jaedong forgot to research consume vs Flash. No one knew about until the critical final battle. Everyone was like, "Holy shit!" But in SC2, if you keep somewhat track of all those progress tabs that are ALWAYS atop the screen, when someone forgets a critical upgrade, you hear commentators say, "HerO forgot storm research, this battle won't be pretty." Where's the fun? The outcomes of battles are a little more predictable because of all of this information. And here's an aesthetic complaint: unit animation of death in Brood War are sooo much more satisfying, vivid, loud. When I watch SC2, I see blobs of units die at a time. And when workers die they just kind of *poof* quietly.
I think everyone is going to agree with you now because that's how opinions work.
Clearly there's people that disagree with the notion that BW is more fun to watch, so making an argument based on you having watched some casual SC2 concluding that we can now all agree that "SC2 is not nearly as enjoyabvle as an observer". Really?
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On April 05 2012 10:20 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:58 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
This seems like a good time for my remaining favorite BW pros to hang up their mouses and go to college or something.
Look I'm not a huge fan of SC2, I admit that. But you'll see from my posts that I've watched quite a few SC2 events. I like IPL Fightclub, for example. I'll watch a couple of games when MLG is going. Very casual. But allow me to say this: if we momentarily suspend the argument of which game is more dynamic, we can all admit that SC2 is not nearly as enjoyable as an observer. During the gaps in action in SC2 games, we are constantly being bombarded with statistics and progress. MC's stalker blink is 50% upgraded, let's look at the income tabs, we can see Idra has lost X workers, Nestea has 15 broodlords morphing and exactly 12 more corruptors are about to hatch... There's a lot of suspense missing. The lack if information makes brood war a little intense. Like in a tense ZvP, a large battle ensues, protoss pushes zerg back, then the observer looks at a moving line on the minimap. We see 15 speedlots heading in, and the crowd and commentators go, "WAHH" In SC2, you already know when they're being built. Stats like how many workers were killed are cute, but not informative, beyond seeing that "a lot" of workers were killed, or seeing how unsuccessful some harasses are. But you don't need a worker kill tab to know these. And think about this: there was a famous game where Jaedong forgot to research consume vs Flash. No one knew about until the critical final battle. Everyone was like, "Holy shit!" But in SC2, if you keep somewhat track of all those progress tabs that are ALWAYS atop the screen, when someone forgets a critical upgrade, you hear commentators say, "HerO forgot storm research, this battle won't be pretty." Where's the fun? The outcomes of battles are a little more predictable because of all of this information. And here's an aesthetic complaint: unit animation of death in Brood War are sooo much more satisfying, vivid, loud. When I watch SC2, I see blobs of units die at a time. And when workers die they just kind of *poof* quietly. I think everyone is going to agree with you now because that's how opinions work. Clearly there's people that disagree with the notion that BW is more fun to watch, so making an argument based on you having watched some casual SC2 concluding that we can now all agree that "SC2 is not nearly as enjoyabvle as an observer". Really?
A simple "I disagree" would suffice 
You attack my generalization of public opinion, but fail to address any of my specific opinions. I wait patiently for a more thorough criticism of rant.
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On April 05 2012 10:40 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 10:20 Saechiis wrote:On April 05 2012 09:58 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
This seems like a good time for my remaining favorite BW pros to hang up their mouses and go to college or something.
Look I'm not a huge fan of SC2, I admit that. But you'll see from my posts that I've watched quite a few SC2 events. I like IPL Fightclub, for example. I'll watch a couple of games when MLG is going. Very casual. But allow me to say this: if we momentarily suspend the argument of which game is more dynamic, we can all admit that SC2 is not nearly as enjoyable as an observer. During the gaps in action in SC2 games, we are constantly being bombarded with statistics and progress. MC's stalker blink is 50% upgraded, let's look at the income tabs, we can see Idra has lost X workers, Nestea has 15 broodlords morphing and exactly 12 more corruptors are about to hatch... There's a lot of suspense missing. The lack if information makes brood war a little intense. Like in a tense ZvP, a large battle ensues, protoss pushes zerg back, then the observer looks at a moving line on the minimap. We see 15 speedlots heading in, and the crowd and commentators go, "WAHH" In SC2, you already know when they're being built. Stats like how many workers were killed are cute, but not informative, beyond seeing that "a lot" of workers were killed, or seeing how unsuccessful some harasses are. But you don't need a worker kill tab to know these. And think about this: there was a famous game where Jaedong forgot to research consume vs Flash. No one knew about until the critical final battle. Everyone was like, "Holy shit!" But in SC2, if you keep somewhat track of all those progress tabs that are ALWAYS atop the screen, when someone forgets a critical upgrade, you hear commentators say, "HerO forgot storm research, this battle won't be pretty." Where's the fun? The outcomes of battles are a little more predictable because of all of this information. And here's an aesthetic complaint: unit animation of death in Brood War are sooo much more satisfying, vivid, loud. When I watch SC2, I see blobs of units die at a time. And when workers die they just kind of *poof* quietly. I think everyone is going to agree with you now because that's how opinions work. Clearly there's people that disagree with the notion that BW is more fun to watch, so making an argument based on you having watched some casual SC2 concluding that we can now all agree that "SC2 is not nearly as enjoyabvle as an observer". Really? A simple "I disagree" would suffice You attack my generalization of public opinion, but fail to address any of my specific opinions. I wait patiently for a more thorough criticism of rant.
Well, the generalization of public opinion was the only real problem with the post. The opinion is interesting and some people would agree. It's really a matter of opinion I think. I like both BW and SC2 when it comes to this. When it comes to all the information, I find SC2 more interesting if I'm taking an intellectual approach to the game and want to admire the strategy and play of the players, but it might be less exciting.
Of course, it's easier to admire the play of the players in BW just because the players are better, although because everything is more difficult they don't appear to be that much better and I'm left unimpressed as someone who doesn't play much BW anymore. Although I know about it's difficulty in my head, and I have played the game, I unrealistically expect them to play like it were as easy as SC2 and they could do way more stuff with the same amount of APM and mechanical skill.
On the other hand, though, I can get a bit bored of BW after watching too many games across many days, since I lack the ability to really see what's going on in the game. There's less content so it's just a bit more boring, and all the games start to feel like they are showing the same thing over and over. Of course the same can happen with SC2, and generally the SC2 strategy has become somewhat boring so I'm bored watching that as well, but having all the information there alerts me to the details of the game which increases interest.
Blizzard has developed ways for the spectator to better see what's going on, and overall I like it. ZvZ in BW, for instance, is boring to me since I can't see how many mutas are stacked so it just looks like two blobs shooting at each other until one retreats. Some people really like BW ZvZ, but I enjoy how Blizzard has lessened the amount air units stack up, among other things.
Pretty much a matter of opinion, though.
Edit: I'd also blame a lot of any of my boredom of BW on the fact that I'm not very invested in it. I haven't really developed favorite players or teams and I don't follow the story very closely, so that's a bit part of it. Fans can become invested in even the most boring of sports and find them interesting. Basically, when I'm bored of SC2 it's because it's lacking in something, and when I'm bored with BW it's because I'm not invested in it, and I don't appreciate the difficulty so much because I don't play it much anymore.
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I want to add something to MountainDewJunkie's point on excess of information. It also makes the casters and commentators shit. Kills their game sense.
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On April 05 2012 07:32 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 07:14 Ribbon wrote:On April 04 2012 21:06 Archers_bane wrote:On April 04 2012 21:04 babysuperga wrote:
No!!! I watched SC2. It's so terrible!!!
I can't understand anything. I feel like its just comes down to one engagement that determines it all, maybe I have some bias but thats how I feel about watching pro sc2. There's still more truth to this then SC2 fans like to admit. "Get 3 bases and turtle to 200" is the best strat in that game, generally. There's apparently some attempt to move away from that in HotS by making units that are good but not good in the army to force smaller armies. It apparently helps a bit, but HotS is still a long-ass way off. 6m1hyg, though, actually fixes that and many other problems of SC2, which is why I've gotten evangelical over it. Not to the point where it's better than BW, but to the point where it's playing the same game. Sadly, it's not mainstream (yet), but I think the FRB Grand Tournament will be really exciting. While at it, remove the Xel' Naga towers too. One of the reason why BW need to keep your army mobile is because of the lack of battlefield sight. You need to constantly locate your armies to not get caught off guard by any backstab. With the introduction of the Xel'Naga towers, you are pretty much guaranteed to have the game end by a huge clash instead of small skimish there and there that requires you to put tons of practice time as it is APM intensive.
What about BW, though? You don't see BW players leave notable amounts of supply sitting around waiting for possible backstabs. It's usually a worker or pylon near the minerals you can drill through to get into the back of a base. Not to mention spider mines and, to a lesser extent, overlords. And it's not like back stabs are less common in SC2. Hell, half the time an SC2 match ends in a base race because the two armies literally miss each other on the way to each other's bases.
I really think that SC2's big problem is that "I will turtle on 3 easily defendable bases to 200 food and then attack, possibly while taking a fourth" is the optimal strategy, meaning there's no reason to split your army.
Like, if I were playing BW, and you gave me and only me MBS and automine and Unlimited Unit Selection and all the rest of the things that make SC2 easier, I don't think it would really help me get into the C ranks, because BW is about way more than that. If I had my whole army on 1 hotkey (or 3, as most SC2 pros do nowadays), it would probably make me worse because I'd be running my whole army across the map to deal with a drop.
That is, again, why I like FRB games. I had a Terran opponent run hellions into multiple bases at once because I need 4-5 instead of 2-3, and I wasn't nearly fast enough to deal with it. That "Damn these slow hands" feeling is pretty rare in SC2, pretty common in 6m1hyg, and the entirely of the BW game to me.
On April 05 2012 09:58 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Like in a tense ZvP, a large battle ensues, protoss pushes zerg back, then the observer looks at a moving line on the minimap. We see 15 speedlots heading in, and the crowd and commentators go, "WAHH" In SC2, you already know when they're being built. Stats like how many workers were killed are cute, but not informative, beyond seeing that "a lot" of workers were killed, or seeing how unsuccessful some harasses are. But you don't need a worker kill tab to know these. And think about this: there was a famous game where Jaedong forgot to research consume vs Flash. No one knew about until the critical final battle. Everyone was like, "Holy shit!"
There's definately an argument for turning those tabs off. I think that's more of a culture differnece, because lots of SC2 fans dream of winning an MLG or something and thus want to learn, whereas BW fans have no such aspirations and just want to be awed by great games. I do wish more tournaments would try it, but I can understand the feeling of "I don't know what to talk about....to the production tab!"
On April 05 2012 12:31 ShadeR wrote:
I want to add something to MountainDewJunkie's point on excess of information. It also makes the casters and commentators shit. Kills their game sense.
Shit at casting or at playing?
When I watch SC2, I see blobs of units die at a time. And when workers die they just kind of *poof* quietly.
Slightly off-topic: Why do BW drones explode? Are they full of propane? That always confused me.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49488 Posts
drone explode only when they are carrying gas.
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ugh...why not just have two parallel competitions? They are two different games. This is like having one half of a soccer match and one half of a volleyball game...its just silly, and its not going to make fans of either happy.
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On April 05 2012 09:58 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
This seems like a good time for my remaining favorite BW pros to hang up their mouses and go to college or something.
Look I'm not a huge fan of SC2, I admit that. But you'll see from my posts that I've watched quite a few SC2 events. I like IPL Fightclub, for example. I'll watch a couple of games when MLG is going. Very casual. But allow me to say this: if we momentarily suspend the argument of which game is more dynamic, we can all admit that SC2 is not nearly as enjoyable as an observer. During the gaps in action in SC2 games, we are constantly being bombarded with statistics and progress. MC's stalker blink is 50% upgraded, let's look at the income tabs, we can see Idra has lost X workers, Nestea has 15 broodlords morphing and exactly 12 more corruptors are about to hatch... There's a lot of suspense missing. The lack if information makes brood war a little intense. Like in a tense ZvP, a large battle ensues, protoss pushes zerg back, then the observer looks at a moving line on the minimap. We see 15 speedlots heading in, and the crowd and commentators go, "WAHH" In SC2, you already know when they're being built. Stats like how many workers were killed are cute, but not informative, beyond seeing that "a lot" of workers were killed, or seeing how unsuccessful some harasses are. But you don't need a worker kill tab to know these. And think about this: there was a famous game where Jaedong forgot to research consume vs Flash. No one knew about until the critical final battle. Everyone was like, "Holy shit!" But in SC2, if you keep somewhat track of all those progress tabs that are ALWAYS atop the screen, when someone forgets a critical upgrade, you hear commentators say, "HerO forgot storm research, this battle won't be pretty." Where's the fun? The outcomes of battles are a little more predictable because of all of this information. And here's an aesthetic complaint: unit animation of death in Brood War are sooo much more satisfying, vivid, loud. When I watch SC2, I see blobs of units die at a time. And when workers die they just kind of *poof* quietly.
totally agree..
I dont even need to write any long post, cause all my thoughts, you just pointed out.
bravo
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I think SC2 does have some charms of its own if you give it a chance, mainly present in the TvT and TvZ matchups, but as a sequel it doesn't meet the usual expectations for what a sequel should be. Good sequels generally either do most of what the first game did and more (Diablo 2), or they do something new entirely (Warcraft 3). SC2 largely just does less than what BW did. People get caught up on names, saying "Bring X unit back and SC2 will be better", and this gives some SC2 fans the impression that we're just averse to change, but really the loss of individual units is secondary to the loss of ideas at work.
Take the Reaver. It's not just that they removed the Reaver, nothing is like the Reaver in SC2. I don't mean the micro intensiveness but the core idea of a ranged unit that can't attack through obstructions, or that needs to buy its ammunition, or that is so slow it needs another unit to get around. Nothing is like the Vulture (a very mobile unit that goes around laying down little immobile units). Nothing is like the Scourge (effectively a melee flier). Nothing is like Stasis, or Plague, or Defensive Matrix. There are some new ideas, both good and bad ones*, but not nearly as many as there are ideas that either didn't make the transition or are only present in a lesser form (take Dark Swarm => PDD or Arbiter => Mothership). Notice that I haven't even mentioned anything added in BW.
SC2 is a decent game in a vacuum, and I think what success it's had in the West is due to it mostly being approached that way, but this dual game format would force it to be seen as a sequel. If the rumor is true it'll be interesting to see the reaction of the foreign SC2 community.
*Mostly bad ones in my opinion. Early on in SC2's development someone, maybe Browder, must have decided that the single worst thing about BW is how hard it can be to end games after getting a lead. A general theme was to take away the defender's advantage of ramps, with warp gates, cliff walking, blink, medics and dropships being combined into one unit, and all of that on top of smarter pathing AI making ramps less of an army bottleneck and large armies just as mobile as small armies, on top of the removal of space control units and spells, ON TOP OF the removal of low ground to high ground % miss. I think these things are largely why players are more reluctant to spread their assets outward in SC2, moreso than resource gathering rate, though that may also be a factor.
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On March 24 2012 01:50 Kiett wrote:
Hey guys. I think we should ask them to put some other games in too. Something like...
Set 1: BW
Set 2: SC2
Set 3: LoL
Set 4: DotA 2
Set 5: Fifa Online
Set 6: WoW Arena
Ace Match: Tic Tac Toe
IT WOULD BE THE COOLEST GAME LEAGUE EVER!
I remember that league. It sucked ass.
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On April 05 2012 05:25 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 05:59 1Eris1 wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 Megaliskuu wrote:On April 03 2012 04:33 Apex wrote:On April 03 2012 03:59 Skwid1g wrote:On April 03 2012 03:55 Taekwon wrote:On April 03 2012 03:40 duncan.mc wrote:On April 03 2012 02:53 hauton wrote:
This makes no sense
SC2 has zero traction in Korea anyways. It's long past its expiry date. Nobody cares about a game released nearly 2 years ago.
Mixing SC2 with BW won't get me to start watching SC2, I'll just stop watching BW. Period. You're using this argument as a BW fan? Uh, huh. Except Brood War just so happens to already be the rave. Use your head. Except s c2 does have a huge fanbase outside of Korea.They're trying to garner more attention inside Korea as well as getting the foreign fans to watch like GOM has. With that being said, they shouldn't be together in any way. Same teams for both games would be nice, but neither team should influence one another. Having sc2 being mixed with BW doesn't make sense imo, I enjoy watching sc2 but mixing them is an AWFUL idea. I'm hoping it's just a separate team league for SC2, but I guess we'll see. Meh, it seems to be more high-profile but not necessarily huge fanbase. Someone earlier said it best: zealous but not large. So many people here are so blind, sc2 has a huuuuuge fanbase outside of korea man, just look at MLGs and streams and stuff. I don't care for the game and wouldn't even be sad if the entire sc2 scene died overnight, but to say it isn't really popular is just delusional. Popular/huge are subjective terms. MLGs best numbers were 250k I believe and GSL seems to average a few hundred thousand on its code S vods. (this isn't all of the sc2 fans either, but I imagine it makes up the core percentage that can be classified as solid fans) Now hundreds of thousands is certainly a lot of people, much more than most of us can picture, but it pales (and I mean pales) in comparison to BW at its height and it is still considerably less than the Korea fan base to this day. 250k accross all games, including LoL and COD. Probably less that 40% of that is SC2 Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:18 JohnnyPG wrote:On April 05 2012 03:01 Azriel wrote:
This is going to make Blizzard/Kespa look like ass when SC2 dies in a year or so. I have never understood why pro BW anti SC2 comments like this dont even receive a warning, if I said this about BW, I would have been banned. And you are incorrect, SC2 has a massive and dedicated fanbase in the foreign scene, and it only will be growing. Once North America catches on, and starts offering professional gamers real money like a real job, you will see it become a legitimate path to follow out here, and any and all talent in NA will bloom more then it has. And honestly, once The Big 3 (JD, Flash, Bisu) switch over to Sc2, their massive fanbase will follow them into Sc2, there might be some that dont, but if you dont think that the vast majority of people wouldnt watch Jeadong play even fucking League of Legends, you are deluding yourself x) If you actually believe this you are deluding yourself. SC2 is not destined to become mainstrean in North America. The fanbase is shrinking not growing. Nothing will make SC2 replicate the success of BW in Korea.
...I have followed every MLG since the beginning, there is thousands upon thousands more viewers then there used to be, what in the hell are you talking about dude? When I started playing, there was roughly 500K players on battlenet at any given time, now when I go on, it is EXTREMELY rare, and I mean "holy shit this never happens" rare that I see it dip below 800K people, usually when i play it is 1 million or 1 million plus people online, and you are actually going to claim with a factual tone that the fanbase is shrinking?
.....lawl? How do you figure?
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Pretty sure the Bnet stats are for all of Battle.net, which includes DII and WC3 and WoW.
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^ If that is true I will most definitely eat my words. But that doesnt really make too too much sense to me, I would think that it would total far more then that if all of the WoW junkies were getting counted also.
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On April 05 2012 15:07 JohnnyPG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 05:25 Pelopidas wrote:On April 03 2012 05:59 1Eris1 wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 Megaliskuu wrote:On April 03 2012 04:33 Apex wrote:On April 03 2012 03:59 Skwid1g wrote:On April 03 2012 03:55 Taekwon wrote:On April 03 2012 03:40 duncan.mc wrote:On April 03 2012 02:53 hauton wrote:
This makes no sense
SC2 has zero traction in Korea anyways. It's long past its expiry date. Nobody cares about a game released nearly 2 years ago.
Mixing SC2 with BW won't get me to start watching SC2, I'll just stop watching BW. Period. You're using this argument as a BW fan? Uh, huh. Except Brood War just so happens to already be the rave. Use your head. Except s c2 does have a huge fanbase outside of Korea.They're trying to garner more attention inside Korea as well as getting the foreign fans to watch like GOM has. With that being said, they shouldn't be together in any way. Same teams for both games would be nice, but neither team should influence one another. Having sc2 being mixed with BW doesn't make sense imo, I enjoy watching sc2 but mixing them is an AWFUL idea. I'm hoping it's just a separate team league for SC2, but I guess we'll see. Meh, it seems to be more high-profile but not necessarily huge fanbase. Someone earlier said it best: zealous but not large. So many people here are so blind, sc2 has a huuuuuge fanbase outside of korea man, just look at MLGs and streams and stuff. I don't care for the game and wouldn't even be sad if the entire sc2 scene died overnight, but to say it isn't really popular is just delusional. Popular/huge are subjective terms. MLGs best numbers were 250k I believe and GSL seems to average a few hundred thousand on its code S vods. (this isn't all of the sc2 fans either, but I imagine it makes up the core percentage that can be classified as solid fans) Now hundreds of thousands is certainly a lot of people, much more than most of us can picture, but it pales (and I mean pales) in comparison to BW at its height and it is still considerably less than the Korea fan base to this day. 250k accross all games, including LoL and COD. Probably less that 40% of that is SC2 On April 05 2012 03:18 JohnnyPG wrote:On April 05 2012 03:01 Azriel wrote:
This is going to make Blizzard/Kespa look like ass when SC2 dies in a year or so. I have never understood why pro BW anti SC2 comments like this dont even receive a warning, if I said this about BW, I would have been banned. And you are incorrect, SC2 has a massive and dedicated fanbase in the foreign scene, and it only will be growing. Once North America catches on, and starts offering professional gamers real money like a real job, you will see it become a legitimate path to follow out here, and any and all talent in NA will bloom more then it has. And honestly, once The Big 3 (JD, Flash, Bisu) switch over to Sc2, their massive fanbase will follow them into Sc2, there might be some that dont, but if you dont think that the vast majority of people wouldnt watch Jeadong play even fucking League of Legends, you are deluding yourself x) If you actually believe this you are deluding yourself. SC2 is not destined to become mainstrean in North America. The fanbase is shrinking not growing. Nothing will make SC2 replicate the success of BW in Korea. ...I have followed every MLG since the beginning, there is thousands upon thousands more viewers then there used to be, what in the hell are you talking about dude? When I started playing, there was roughly 500K players on battlenet at any given time, now when I go on, it is EXTREMELY rare, and I mean "holy shit this never happens" rare that I see it dip below 800K people, usually when i play it is 1 million or 1 million plus people online, and you are actually going to claim with a factual tone that the fanbase is shrinking? .....lawl? How do you figure?
GOMtv reported that the GSL had over 50 million foreign viewers early last year, and last they reported, those numbers were doubling by the season. The number one country that tuned in to their site was the United States, though obviously many other countries can be found on that list. Also notable was the 12 million viewers from China.
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MLG, however, only reported about 250k viewers in December of last year, but with a 225% growth in viewers from 2010.
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I wonder what the definition of "viewer" is, however. 50 million in the GSL vs. 250k in MLG seems like a huge difference, and I would have expected those to be closer. Not sure if they're countinig in the same way, or if they are, then GSL is WAY better known.
Does anyone have stats on how many people were solid fans/viewers of bw back in its prime? Though as I just looked up online, South Korea itself only has a population of about 50 millioin. Unless every single person in South Korea watched bw, I doubt you can claim that sc2 is not more popular worldwide than bw was in korea back in the day. And considering that sc2 is still growing (not slowly, either), you can DEFINITELY not say that the fanbase is shrinking, and it wouldn't be wise to assume that the fanbase is going to shrink anytime in the next few years, at least.
As someone before me said, the fanbase for sc2 isn't likely to get smaller until after both expansions have been released and have had a few years to cool off. Kind of like how bw is now. Once the game is old, people will lose interest.As of right now, all signs point to sc2's growth, not demise.
And no, for the record, I'm not anti bw - it's a great game, but sc2 is what has the spotlight now. The idea of combining both games into one league is... well, it's definitely interesting. I hope that the format doesn't end up being as awkward as it sounds (each player having to prepare to play both games? Really? The quality of practice and therefore gameplay that each pro will be able to show for it will be cut in half, if that's the case) and what I would rather see is maybe teams forming that have bw players AND sc2 players, but still competing in different leagues, or at least in team matches where both games are played in an overall series.
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Change is never pleasant. I love sc2 since it got me hooked to starcraft, watch every big tournament, play myself and get my friends to play as well.
I love Broodwar as well, but mostly because of the legends and the things that have happened in the past. I don't know a lot about the game, I don't watch a lot of vods either I just check results and read old articles about people like iloveoov, Boxer, Flash etc.
But SC2 still has this future ahead of it. Broodwar, sadly enough, has a lot of teams quitting, sponsors changing to other games/sports, leagues stopping and so on. Therefore the BW scene should slowly transition to sc2, move along with time.
It worries me that Heart of the Swarm is about to come out, since it will probably bring a lot of imba at the start and that's no way to compete on.
And everyone who says that the best tactic in sc2 is to just 3base or 2base and wait for 200, is just being bias and hasn't actually watched more than 5 games. Sc2 has most of BW's builds and there are way more to be discovered.
Plus being so korea isolated is the bane of BW, and the international scene is what brings forth sc2's rising. Half the world wants to see their own players play. Just look at how many fans Idra has ^.^
I look forward to BW pros coming to SC2, and I wonder if they will do as well as suspected. I hope so!
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