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OSL begins on March 31st - Page 20

Forum Index > BW General
482 CommentsPost a Reply
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ImbaTosS
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1699 Posts
March 22 2012 20:11 GMT
#381
I hate to ask- who is Park Wan Kyu..? I'm sure I love the dude, since he loves BW.
EleGant[AoV]
jaQi
Profile Joined December 2010
1121 Posts
March 22 2012 20:15 GMT
#382
On March 23 2012 05:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
I hate to ask- who is Park Wan Kyu..? I'm sure I love the dude, since he loves BW.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boohwal

Just scroll to 90s and beyond: In 1997 (...)

He's a big Bisu fan ^^ at least he is very often in the audience when Bisu plays.
moopie
Profile Joined July 2009
12605 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-22 20:22:58
March 22 2012 20:22 GMT
#383
On March 23 2012 05:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
I hate to ask- who is Park Wan Kyu..? I'm sure I love the dude, since he loves BW.

He's a singer who's a big fan of BW (and Bisu). He's attended a lot of matches and performed in the Jin Air OSL and at YellOw's retirement ceremony.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet.
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-22 20:34:59
March 22 2012 20:31 GMT
#384
Ok the design philosophy discussion has ended so i edited my post not to derail.

This guy is the rockman dude from Jinair?

Nice of him, really passionate guy
Stork[gm]
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
March 22 2012 20:41 GMT
#385
He looks like asian Jim Raynor =D
Tekken ProGamer
Airwaffle
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden50 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-22 22:51:17
March 22 2012 22:49 GMT
#386
Does anyone know how much money that is needed for one starleague? Or do anyone think they somehow might be able to find out? Because technically, if there is no sponsor for the next OSL, can't we just start a kickstarter for it and then try to get it sponsored in the name of "The Teamliquid Community"?

This would show the korean Broodwar scene how much support thet got in the international scene and maybe, the knowledge that we, the foreign fans, actually do exist would be able to revive the broodwar scene somehow, getting KESPA to open their eyes and give us streams that we can pay for or something.

I might be a bit too enthusiastic though, but I really think we still might bebig enough group of people to pull it off. I mean, at least the enthusiasm for the game hasn't died yet!

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying that I should do this, since I'm just a lurker. I'm saying that some well known Team Liquid member very well could.
Rococo
Profile Joined May 2011
United States331 Posts
March 22 2012 22:49 GMT
#387
More design discussion! Hide your daughters!.
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 23 2012 04:15 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 21:47 Rococo wrote:
Thrilled by this news.

On March 22 2012 16:08 Caihead wrote:
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.


Does simply underlining a word for emphasis make a claim self-evident? These things aren't flaws. Convinced yet?

All games are about arbitrary restrictions, rules. And every rule in BW's rule set was put there quite deliberately by its designers, whether they foresaw all the possible consequences or not*. It wasn't fairies that gave the Reaver an attack that needs to path to its target, or that programmed the AI by which it does so. And it was a 100% conscious design choice to include Reavers in the game despite the unpredictability of scarabs, which they were well aware of. Would they have done something different with different tools and resources? Of course, but when has that ever mattered? (Jaws was not made worse because the mechanical sharks kept malfunctioning and Spielberg was forced to rely on classic cinematic techniques to create suspense.)

The sole criterion by which you say a rule is flawed or not is how it shapes the gameplay experience, whether to be more challenging or less challenging, or more restrictive or less restrictive, or whatever it is the player is looking for. And this judgement, as you say, is very much a personal preference. You should have left it at that.

*And of course they didn't, because no designer does.


It's deliberate to cap the projectile limit of the game so that valkyries are useless in great numbers where as every other unit isn't? The limitations do make BW cooler, but that's very much a personal evaluation. It's like modeling and rear screen projections in old movies being replaced by more technically capable special effects and computer generated graphics; where the limitations made it cooler. What I'm saying is exactly why people hate the majority of new movies that are completely reliant on special effects, that people learn to understand why people liked old things even though they are technically flawed because of the design and human ingenuity to get around these limitations and not allowing them to influence the game's entertainment value. New film makers along with new game developers often forget basics of making a movie / developing a game like understanding how the audience / player base reacts, basics of camera work / story telling / incorporating varied game mechanics and situations etc.

There's no shame nor is it derogatory to say a certain system is flawed, I love modeling and precise camera work and practical special effects, but i'm not going to pretend that those things didn't limit film making. What I would love more is modeling, precise camera work, practical special effects, along with new computer technology all being incorporated; very few film makers understand / learn from past film making just as very few games developers learn from past mistakes.


You're basically just repeating what you said before without addressing the main point of my post, which was that in the context of a game a limitation should be evaluated solely by how it affects gameplay. Aside from the scope of effect, there isn't a significant difference between "Valkyries bug out in large numbers" and "Rooks can only move horizontally and vertically". Both are just restrictions on the use of a piece. Or, for that matter, between "you can only move 12 pieces at a time" and "you can only move 1 piece a turn".

Your movie analogy doesn't make sense because the tools used to make something are separate from its design. Whether a director uses CGI or practical effects for a particular movie is usually incidental to the rest of its construction. If she's directing a classic western and uses CGI to create a nice sunset, she won't then put Jar Jar Binks in every scene. Games don't have to do that sort of thing, either. It's okay to have advanced graphics, and even physics and other innovations, without thoughtlessly shoehorning in design elements just because they're considered "modern". (I brought up Jaws to give a popular example of something being shaped in a positive way by its creators not being able to do everything they wanted. It wasn't intended to draw some parallel concerning the clash of old and new technology. I love technology, and wish developers were pushing the envelope far more than they are currently.)


But more on topic, I hope Hydra gets his groove back. Quarter finalist of Jin Air but this season of PL he looked.. less than stellar.
SCnai
Profile Joined February 2010
322 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-22 23:27:39
March 22 2012 23:26 GMT
#388
On March 23 2012 07:49 Airwaffle wrote:
Does anyone know how much money that is needed for one starleague? Or do anyone think they somehow might be able to find out? Because technically, if there is no sponsor for the next OSL, can't we just start a kickstarter for it and then try to get it sponsored in the name of "The Teamliquid Community"?

Good Lord, I've been thinking about this only today and in fact have been composing a post in which to introduce the idea to TL... There's no chance we could sponsor it fully, but there is a chance we could make a contribution that mattered.
The legend of the fall, which everyone thought was only a dream, is being revived! Carriers, the symbol of Protoss, the hope of a million Protoss fans, are reviving the legend!
o[twist]
Profile Joined May 2008
United States4903 Posts
March 22 2012 23:28 GMT
#389
really terrific news, thank you
[Azn]Nada
Profile Joined April 2009
United States275 Posts
March 23 2012 00:17 GMT
#390
On March 23 2012 08:26 SCnai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 07:49 Airwaffle wrote:
Does anyone know how much money that is needed for one starleague? Or do anyone think they somehow might be able to find out? Because technically, if there is no sponsor for the next OSL, can't we just start a kickstarter for it and then try to get it sponsored in the name of "The Teamliquid Community"?

Good Lord, I've been thinking about this only today and in fact have been composing a post in which to introduce the idea to TL... There's no chance we could sponsor it fully, but there is a chance we could make a contribution that mattered.


This. I'd donate 50 USD easily, more if my parents didnt realize it (I'm in college, so they still track my bank account). Starcraft/the community around it has been a "brother" to me growing up, since im an only child, god knows what i'd do if it died haha.
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
March 23 2012 00:48 GMT
#391
lol @ people bringing sc2 in this thread, fuck that noise OSL IS COMING YEEEEEEEEEAH, we can talk about sc2 when the time comes.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
Airwaffle
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden50 Posts
March 23 2012 00:49 GMT
#392
Yeah, that's the spirit! I think the best thing would be to ask someone well known and well liked on the forums to start it. Maybe even somebody that knows korean and can communicate what we're trying to do to OGN/KESPA. Somebody we can trust. And then we'll try to get everybody talking about it, like if Sayle mentions it on his stream and stuff.

I guess the hardest thing would be to decide on how much money we would try to collect. Maybe kickstarter isn't really the best option, but I feel it has such a nice money meter, being able to see how much it's currently at and all. Makes you really feel how every contribution count. I think that's kinda important. Just to collect money via Paypal or something, I think might scare many of the potential small contributors away.

I'd really like something like this to happen.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-23 02:11:57
March 23 2012 01:31 GMT
#393
On March 23 2012 07:49 Rococo wrote:
More design discussion! Hide your daughters!.
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 23 2012 04:15 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 21:47 Rococo wrote:
Thrilled by this news.

On March 22 2012 16:08 Caihead wrote:
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.


Does simply underlining a word for emphasis make a claim self-evident? These things aren't flaws. Convinced yet?

All games are about arbitrary restrictions, rules. And every rule in BW's rule set was put there quite deliberately by its designers, whether they foresaw all the possible consequences or not*. It wasn't fairies that gave the Reaver an attack that needs to path to its target, or that programmed the AI by which it does so. And it was a 100% conscious design choice to include Reavers in the game despite the unpredictability of scarabs, which they were well aware of. Would they have done something different with different tools and resources? Of course, but when has that ever mattered? (Jaws was not made worse because the mechanical sharks kept malfunctioning and Spielberg was forced to rely on classic cinematic techniques to create suspense.)

The sole criterion by which you say a rule is flawed or not is how it shapes the gameplay experience, whether to be more challenging or less challenging, or more restrictive or less restrictive, or whatever it is the player is looking for. And this judgement, as you say, is very much a personal preference. You should have left it at that.

*And of course they didn't, because no designer does.


It's deliberate to cap the projectile limit of the game so that valkyries are useless in great numbers where as every other unit isn't? The limitations do make BW cooler, but that's very much a personal evaluation. It's like modeling and rear screen projections in old movies being replaced by more technically capable special effects and computer generated graphics; where the limitations made it cooler. What I'm saying is exactly why people hate the majority of new movies that are completely reliant on special effects, that people learn to understand why people liked old things even though they are technically flawed because of the design and human ingenuity to get around these limitations and not allowing them to influence the game's entertainment value. New film makers along with new game developers often forget basics of making a movie / developing a game like understanding how the audience / player base reacts, basics of camera work / story telling / incorporating varied game mechanics and situations etc.

There's no shame nor is it derogatory to say a certain system is flawed, I love modeling and precise camera work and practical special effects, but i'm not going to pretend that those things didn't limit film making. What I would love more is modeling, precise camera work, practical special effects, along with new computer technology all being incorporated; very few film makers understand / learn from past film making just as very few games developers learn from past mistakes.


You're basically just repeating what you said before without addressing the main point of my post, which was that in the context of a game a limitation should be evaluated solely by how it affects gameplay. Aside from the scope of effect, there isn't a significant difference between "Valkyries bug out in large numbers" and "Rooks can only move horizontally and vertically". Both are just restrictions on the use of a piece. Or, for that matter, between "you can only move 12 pieces at a time" and "you can only move 1 piece a turn".

Your movie analogy doesn't make sense because the tools used to make something are separate from its design. Whether a director uses CGI or practical effects for a particular movie is usually incidental to the rest of its construction. If she's directing a classic western and uses CGI to create a nice sunset, she won't then put Jar Jar Binks in every scene. Games don't have to do that sort of thing, either. It's okay to have advanced graphics, and even physics and other innovations, without thoughtlessly shoehorning in design elements just because they're considered "modern". (I brought up Jaws to give a popular example of something being shaped in a positive way by its creators not being able to do everything they wanted. It wasn't intended to draw some parallel concerning the clash of old and new technology. I love technology, and wish developers were pushing the envelope far more than they are currently.)


But more on topic, I hope Hydra gets his groove back. Quarter finalist of Jin Air but this season of PL he looked.. less than stellar.


Augh, fine.
+ Show Spoiler +

First of all. The engine that the game runs in, the platform the game runs in, these are all part of the tools that are used to make something. The BW engine is limited in this respect, the projectile limitation is a part of the limitations set out by the engine, so is unit collision / pathing through solid objects. These are figured out post release and blizzard has infact had official statements and attempts to fix these issues but they were unable to due to the nature of the engine that they built BW on. A inherent limitation based on the technology present at the time is absolutely not an intentional design decision, as much as it's an intentional design decision for atari 2600 games to require cartridges and be unable to render vector graphics. The intention of the original King Kong was to tell a story that had a giant ape in it, the choice to use models, puppets, rear screen projects, etc, were choices made because it was the best possible choices that they had at the time, based on the limitations of filming technology. If the director had access to modern day special effects and computer editing they would have absolutely tried using those too. Blizzard did an amazing job on BW with the technology that they had at the time, and I'm critiquing the technical aspects as they are, and I'm appreciating the game for what it is.

Alot of limitations do certainly become features of the game but, like I said, unless it's officially sanctioned as a positive feature of the game and recognized by the community, is only detrimental to the game. No one is going to argue that muta stacking, mineral pathing, etc haven't become intricate parts of the game, but that's only because the community agreed on these facts rather than rejecting them for being horrendously buggy. Whether or not it's a positive or negative feature is irrelevant to the fact that they are flaws.

And like I said, gamers are NEVER going to ask for newer games that have similar bugs or glitches with in them, unless there was an intention and explanation and actual understanding of how these mechanics benefit the game and make it more interesting. To do that you have to:
1. Understand the limitations of the engine or platform your game is on.
2. Understand that flaws and features that may be incidental could benefit or completely ruin a game.
3. Implement as many positive features and learn from past mistakes as possible.
Perfect examples of this:
Blizzard removed mineral glitching and unit glitching through objects entirely in SC2. It was entirely possible for them to have left that as an INTENTIONAL DESIGN DECISION, but they decided it was a UNDESIRABLE bug with in the BW engine, and even though the new SC2 engine is more than capable of handling that process, they removed it. So that aspect of play is completely gone completely from official matches.
Blizzard fixed projectile limits which were limitations of the previous game, so now you can have 8 player max pop armies and not worry about any projectiles limits or what unit you are producing.
Whether or not these features contributed to the game is entirely of your own opinion, but the technical advancement in the engine is undisputed. In my opinion removing many of the glitches that have become staple of BW made SC2 alot less exciting and bland.

It just seems like you are upset over the word "flaw", would you preferred if I just called them incidental / unintentional features? There's a difference between saying a game has flaws and saying a game is flawed in that I'm passing judgement on it. Is Deus Ex flawed? Is the original mario brothers / pokemon flawed? Yes, all of these games have flaws, and alot of the flaws are based on the platform and technology they ran on; as do Brood War, as do SC2. There's no point pretending that we have a flawless game. Allied mines, buildings crushing interceptors, glitching workers to teleport, build anywhere, or making the command center float closer to the minerals, etc, these are all features that have been banned from official play because they would give the player an unfair advantage so much so that it breaks any competitive play.

Here's a thread to show what I mean, most of these have either been incorporated into official play, or banned. Alot of the more ridiculous ones are completely game breaking.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=66532

I used the movie example because physical assets / tools / environments to make a game / movie are completely independent of how the movie is directed, casted, acted, shot, how good the story is, how it's persented, and so on. Just as a game is. But the technology presented limits what tools the director has to work with and good directors always find ways to hide the limitations of the time and maximize on what the technology is able to present, a huge part of that is learning from past mistakes. Every essential feature we just take for granted in games now like save states for games only started with the invention of memory batteries in cartridges once games became too long for gamers to play through in 1 sitting, then people learning that "geez gamers like the ability to save and load games, and our console has no built in memory capacity what so ever so we need to incorporate it on the cartridge as a work around", and slow evolutions of save states and save files derived from that and the associated technology as it advanced.

You have to understand that games technology has advanced ridiculous margins with the development of technology since the 70s, and there's absolutely no shame in admitting that a game is flawed in technical aspects, hell there's a reason why so many people still play, collect, watch, and compete on the NES or Genesis. But all directors / game makers want more tools and better technology to present their master piece, whether or not that technology is misused depends entirely on if you learn from the past mistakes.


bgx I r sorry
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Jragon
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1471 Posts
March 23 2012 03:05 GMT
#394
oh yes
"Bisu is just too good." - Jaedong (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218995) "Bisu hyung's play is just too good" - Flash (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225861)
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
March 23 2012 03:06 GMT
#395
Flash will 5-0 Jangbi in a Bo3. That is how good he is.
That or a 2-1. Either way...
☺
Soap
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil1546 Posts
March 23 2012 03:21 GMT
#396
On March 23 2012 09:49 Airwaffle wrote:
Yeah, that's the spirit! I think the best thing would be to ask someone well known and well liked on the forums to start it. Maybe even somebody that knows korean and can communicate what we're trying to do to OGN/KESPA. Somebody we can trust. And then we'll try to get everybody talking about it, like if Sayle mentions it on his stream and stuff.

I guess the hardest thing would be to decide on how much money we would try to collect. Maybe kickstarter isn't really the best option, but I feel it has such a nice money meter, being able to see how much it's currently at and all. Makes you really feel how every contribution count. I think that's kinda important. Just to collect money via Paypal or something, I think might scare many of the potential small contributors away.

I'd really like something like this to happen.


Just showing up at KeSPA HQ with a wad of cash probably won't do - as smaller as it became, korean BW is still at corporate level. A proper way of doing this would be to offer to buy the foreign broadcast rights, set up a subscription system to at least fund an english caster and grow from there. However I guess IEG already has the rights, anything like that would benefit them rather than the league until the contract is up.
zergling_1
Profile Joined March 2012
China1 Post
March 23 2012 13:11 GMT
#397
好的,毕姥爷Fighting
Kaolla
Profile Joined January 2003
China2999 Posts
March 23 2012 13:29 GMT
#398
不好,说英文吧~
or something like that >_<;

Also i think the sponsoring isn't rly gonna work out... It's not gonna be an attractive sponsor to them, they'd rather have a big company name I guess and on top of that i don't think there's any way the few bw fans here could come up with an amount that comes even close to the amount needed...

Sry for being negative but imo it's just not a very realistic plan
its me
Misder
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1557 Posts
March 23 2012 13:45 GMT
#399
^.^ So happy~
Whaaaa?
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 23 2012 14:00 GMT
#400
On March 23 2012 05:22 moopie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 05:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
I hate to ask- who is Park Wan Kyu..? I'm sure I love the dude, since he loves BW.

He's a singer who's a big fan of BW (and Bisu). He's attended a lot of matches and performed in the Jin Air OSL and at YellOw's retirement ceremony.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Ooooh, that's where Bisu's Lonely Night song comes from. Awesome
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
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