In the end, they kept the promise. We can still trust OnGameNet. After a long 6 month break, a new season of Starleague will begin.
According to an eSports personal on the 21st, the new season of Starleague will begin with the OSL preliminaries on the 31st and the 1st of April. Though the sponsorship issue hasn't been solved out yet, they wanted to keep the fans entertained during the month break after the Proleague finals on April 8th.
Beginning in 1999 with PKO tournament, there have been 33 Starleagues to this date, including the latest tournament 'JinAir OnGameNet Starleague.' Starleague is one of the, if not THE, icon of eSports scene, with participants such as BoxeR, Yellow, Reach, iloveoov, NaDa, XellOs, Stork, Jaedong and Flash.
It was hard for OGN to schedule and carry out the next season of OSL due to Proleague scheduling and sponsorship issues. With such issues plus the scheduling of LoL tournament during OSL timeslot, there have been many rumors that OGN has terminated Starleague for good.
The schedules of the Progame teams confirm this news, although there haven't been any press release yet. According to the personal, the entire schedule for this season and the prize pool haven't been finalized, but he confirms that the preliminary round will be on the 31st and the 1st of April at Yongsan E-Sports B-Stadium (T/N PC Cafe style stadium next to the main stadium).
The personal said "They haven't finalized on the details of the tournaments, but the tournament will be held for sure."
Picture/Original article are property of OSEN. If there are any issues with this translation, including the copyright of the photo, please feel free to remove the pictures/articles in question.
EDIT @cheerdoo says that Prelims will be on 31st and 1st, Dual in Mid-April, then Group stages in May
FUCK YEAH! Flash bring home #4 baby. If Brood War is to end (don't worry it won't) then it would only be appropriate that the man who solved Brood war would be the one who finally broke the 3 starleague curse.
I really hope there can be some shot at a legit royal roader. Quite a bit of good/exciting rookies, especially protoss (dear, shy). Throw in some turn and last and we got ourselves some real hope.
This is awesome, I really hope this OSL breaks every audience records !
Is there a way for non-Koreans to purchase a premium stream to show our support ?
I'd honestly be down to pay $20+ to watch the season. But i dont think OGN would ever charge us.
With my shitty Chinese internet I wouldn't even be able to watch HD streams, I just wanna show my support. Maybe we should start to send donations.
I've always wondered, does OGN have official streams in China? I always thought they did. If not, that's such a waste of viewership D:
A Shanghainese online eSports TV (SiTV) has officially purchased broadcasting rights. They were also the local partners of OGN/KeSPA for SPL finals organization in Shanghai.
One thing that I want to point out: The prelim dates have been finalized (PC Cafe). It didn't say anything about the finalization of the whole schedule nor mentioned that ro16 (or even dual) will begin right after. However, the official press release is coming on the 26th (or so I have read). Hopefully by then, we will know about the exact details of this OSL.
This is awesome, I really hope this OSL breaks every audience records !
Is there a way for non-Koreans to purchase a premium stream to show our support ?
I'd honestly be down to pay $20+ to watch the season. But i dont think OGN would ever charge us.
With my shitty Chinese internet I wouldn't even be able to watch HD streams, I just wanna show my support. Maybe we should start to send donations.
I've always wondered, does OGN have official streams in China? I always thought they did. If not, that's such a waste of viewership D:
A Shanghainese online eSports TV (SiTV) has officially purchased broadcasting rights. They were also the local partners of OGN/KeSPA for SPL finals organization in Shanghai.
PLU is the go to for starcraft in chinese, recently they've partnered with SiTV who has the broadcast rights, the chinese caster XD=Love does a lot of the programs on both places.
I'm really excited. I've only been a BW fan for a few months now, and although I've read of OSLs of the past, I've been dying to watch one in real time.
Hooray ESPORTS!!!! Glad to see that they are going ahead with prelims regardless of when the actual league will commence! The scene cannot afford any more gaps in televised competitions. Must have constant BW to keep the fanbase!
On March 21 2012 15:56 Zzoram wrote: I really, really hope that Flash takes home a 4th OSL. It would be the perfect send off to Broodwar's final year.
Nah Jaedong winning would be the perfect send off :D
No, Flash winning would be, because Broodwar has to end with Flash holding the most titles. He's clearly the best player ever and the most consistent, so it would be a shame if he had to share the title record with NaDa.
This is awesome, I really hope this OSL breaks every audience records !
Is there a way for non-Koreans to purchase a premium stream to show our support ?
I'd honestly be down to pay $20+ to watch the season. But i dont think OGN would ever charge us.
With my shitty Chinese internet I wouldn't even be able to watch HD streams, I just wanna show my support. Maybe we should start to send donations.
I've always wondered, does OGN have official streams in China? I always thought they did. If not, that's such a waste of viewership D:
A Shanghainese online eSports TV (SiTV) has officially purchased broadcasting rights. They were also the local partners of OGN/KeSPA for SPL finals organization in Shanghai.
PLU is the go to for starcraft in chinese, recently they've partnered with SiTV who has the broadcast rights, the chinese caster XD=Love does a lot of the programs on both places.
thats.. interesting. is there any way to watch this ? some schedules or smthn ?
On March 21 2012 15:56 Zzoram wrote: I really, really hope that Flash takes home a 4th OSL. It would be the perfect send off to Broodwar's final year.
Nah Jaedong winning would be the perfect send off :D
send off? final year? eff that. bw won't be going anywhere
They struggled to find the money to do even ONE OSL this year. How is it not going anywhere? That's a clear sign that the financial situation with Broodwar is falling apart.
This is awesome, I really hope this OSL breaks every audience records !
Is there a way for non-Koreans to purchase a premium stream to show our support ?
I'd honestly be down to pay $20+ to watch the season. But i dont think OGN would ever charge us.
With my shitty Chinese internet I wouldn't even be able to watch HD streams, I just wanna show my support. Maybe we should start to send donations.
I've always wondered, does OGN have official streams in China? I always thought they did. If not, that's such a waste of viewership D:
A Shanghainese online eSports TV (SiTV) has officially purchased broadcasting rights. They were also the local partners of OGN/KeSPA for SPL finals organization in Shanghai.
PLU is the go to for starcraft in chinese, recently they've partnered with SiTV who has the broadcast rights, the chinese caster XD=Love does a lot of the programs on both places.
thats.. interesting. is there any way to watch this ? some schedules or smthn ?
It's nothing special, just live Proleague / OSL casted in Chinese, not sure it will be interesting for you.
Web streams can be found there : http://1.plu.cn/ , although most people watch it using Chinese streaming software such as PPStream.
It's played live delayed by a little less than one minute to add their commentaries on top of it. Casters are not bad at all, there's just sometimes that useless girl...
On March 21 2012 15:56 Zzoram wrote: I really, really hope that Flash takes home a 4th OSL. It would be the perfect send off to Broodwar's final year.
Nah Jaedong winning would be the perfect send off :D
No, Flash winning would be, because Broodwar has to end with Flash holding the most titles. He's clearly the best player ever and the most consistent, so it would be a shame if he had to share the title record with NaDa.
On March 21 2012 15:56 Zzoram wrote: I really, really hope that Flash takes home a 4th OSL. It would be the perfect send off to Broodwar's final year.
Nah Jaedong winning would be the perfect send off :D
send off? final year? eff that. bw won't be going anywhere
They struggled to find the money to do even ONE OSL this year. How is it not going anywhere? That's a clear sign that the financial situation with Broodwar is falling apart.
financial situation of all esport in S korea I would rather say..
Okay, so like... Bisu, man. Stomps through his prelims and into the ODT, crushes his group 2-0. Flattens his Ro16 3-0, kills Shine badly somewhere along the line (possibly in ODT and in the groups) before dropping Flash 2-0 in the Ro8. He then mauls Jaedong 3-0 in horribly lopsided games, before advancing to face Killer in the finals. Killer's had a yawn of a tournament, besting names like Soo, Hydra, and EffOrt - it's KvZ, so nobody's really surprised or expecting much.
This is Bisu's OSL, right? The fans show up in droves, everyone's expecting it to happen.
Killer is no Jaedong and he falls easily to a cannon rush in game 1. Bisu even has free time to build a heart out of pylons in the middle of the map.
Onto game 2, and Bisu again shows his supreme prowess at everything ever. He gets so bored that he queues up some dark templars and leaves his booth to arrange an impromptu meeting with his fangirls. Every five minutes or so he briefly retreats back to his booth to queue up some more DTs.
Game three and Killer still doesn't stand a chance. As Bisu orders his units into Killer's base to deliver the killing blow, he hits enter and types GG, and waits. He waits patiently, watching the zealots tear through Killer's defenses, waiting for that moment when he is to be crowned OSL champion. As Killer frantically goes to pull his last 3 drones to kill Bisu's 25 zealots, he notices his mouse isn't working. He types out "pp" and having learned his lesson, he waits for the refs to pause the game. Bisu, hearing the incoming chat noise and seeing the two little characters appear on screen, instantly slams his enter key and leaves the game. He bursts out of his booth triumphantly, as Killer sees "Congratulations! You are victorious!" on his screen. KeSPA rules that Bisu GG'd and left, so Killer was clearly the victory.
Game four is on Blood Bath, and Killer 4pools. Bisu loses ezpz.
Game five, Killer breaks out the dreaded hydra bust. Bisu cannot hold.
An outpouring of rage erupts across the internet as Bisu fans express their displeasure and dismay. Team Liquid is instantly drowned in the shitstorm and goes down. Every attempt to restore the website is immediately swamped in an unceasing torrent of anger. Eventually attempts are given up, and Team Liquid shuts down. In fact, every website shuts down as Bisu fans rage across the entirety of the internet. Meanwhile in Seoul (and, let's face it, everywhere else!) there is rioting in the streets. An angry mob attempts to literally tear Killer apart, but Jaedong arrives just in time to death stare them all away and escort Killer back to the KeSPA house.
The consequences of this new internetless age ripple through society, but fortunately there's still television, and BW does have lan support. Bisu will try again in the next OSL. One unfortunate casualty is that of Jaedong's career, for he now must be present at all official matches as a bodyguard to keep the fans in order. Still, with no internet people suddenly have a lot more free time on their hands to watch StarCraft, and this OSL is eventually heralded as a revitalization of professional Brood War.
seeded: jangbi, fantasy, soo, hydra flash jaedong bisu stork calm soulkey stats bogus leta best last horang2
Just replace Last by FBH and we're set
On March 21 2012 16:48 Kanil wrote: Is this the thread where I have to make my outlandish predictions about Bisu before he has a chance to lose in the prelims?
Okay, so like... Bisu, man. Stomps through his prelims and into the ODT, crushes his group 2-0. Flattens his Ro16 3-0, kills Shine badly somewhere along the line (possibly in ODT and in the groups) before dropping Flash 2-0 in the Ro8. He then mauls Jaedong 3-0 in horribly lopsided games, before advancing to face Killer in the finals. Killer's had a yawn of a tournament, besting names like Soo, Hydra, and EffOrt - it's KvZ, so nobody's really surprised or expecting much.
This is Bisu's OSL, right? The fans show up in droves, everyone's expecting it to happen.
Killer is no Jaedong and he falls easily to a cannon rush in game 1. Bisu even has free time to build a heart out of pylons in the middle of the map.
Onto game 2, and Bisu again shows his supreme prowess at everything ever. He gets so bored that he queues up some dark templars and leaves his booth to arrange an impromptu meeting with his fangirls. Every five minutes or so he briefly retreats back to his booth to queue up some more DTs.
Game three and Killer still doesn't stand a chance. As Bisu orders his units into Killer's base to deliver the killing blow, he hits enter and types GG, and waits. He waits patiently, watching the zealots tear through Killer's defenses, waiting for that moment when he is to be crowned OSL champion. As Killer frantically goes to pull his last 3 drones to kill Bisu's 25 zealots, he notices his mouse isn't working. He types out "pp" and having learned his lesson, he waits for the refs to pause the game. Bisu, hearing the incoming chat noise and seeing the two little characters appear on screen, instantly slams his enter key and leaves the game. He bursts out of his booth triumphantly, as Killer sees "Congratulations! You are victorious!" on his screen. KeSPA rules that Bisu GG'd and left, so Killer was clearly the victory.
Game four is on Blood Bath, and Killer 4pools. Bisu loses ezpz.
Game five, Killer breaks out the dreaded hydra bust. Bisu cannot hold.
An outpouring of rage erupts across the internet as Bisu fans express their displeasure and dismay. Team Liquid is instantly drowned in the shitstorm and goes down. Every attempt to restore the website is immediately swamped in an unceasing torrent of anger. Eventually attempts are given up, and Team Liquid shuts down. In fact, every website shuts down as Bisu fans rage across the entirety of the internet. Meanwhile in Seoul (and, let's face it, everywhere else!) there is rioting in the streets. An angry mob attempts to literally tear Killer apart, but Jaedong arrives just in time to death stare them all away and escort Killer back to the KeSPA house.
The consequences of this new internetless age ripple through society, but fortunately there's still television, and BW does have lan support. Bisu will try again in the next OSL. One unfortunate casualty is that of Jaedong's career, for he now must be present at all official matches as a bodyguard to keep the fans in order. Still, with no internet people suddenly have a lot more free time on their hands to watch StarCraft, and this OSL is eventually heralded as a revitalization of professional Brood War.
Killer's gonna win the OSL.
Haha I really liked the second part. I'd be part of the riots for sure.
i wonder what this will mean for future starleagues as finding one sponsor now is already proving to be quite a challenge. either way... GREAT NEWWWWWWWWWWWSS!!!
seeded: jangbi, fantasy, soo, hydra flash jaedong bisu stork calm soulkey stats bogus leta best last horang2
Why is Hydra seeded instead of flash? lol. also effort needs more love
All 4 semifinalists are seeded. Hydra made it to the Ro4 before getting knocked out by Fantasy. Flash only made the Ro8 before getting knocked out by Jangbi. He'll be seeded into the dual tournament, but not the Ro16.
seeded: jangbi, fantasy, soo, hydra flash jaedong bisu stork calm soulkey stats bogus leta best last horang2
Why is Hydra seeded instead of flash? lol. also effort needs more love
All 4 semifinalists are seeded. Hydra made it to the Ro4 before getting knocked out by Fantasy. Flash only made the Ro8 before getting knocked out by Jangbi. He'll be seeded into the dual tournament, but not the Ro16.
Oh right im retarded nvm, how did i remembered it wrong >_>
This is going to be... Amazing! I've waited for this for soo long! Its Bisus time to shine! First we take Proleague! THEN BISU TAKES OSL! SKT FIGHTING!
I'm still skeptical and pesimistic. It's just the qualifier only. NOT the main proper event yet.... They could even terminate it after qualifier ends like the MSL...
On March 21 2012 15:20 GTR wrote: my dreams of going to a live brood war final are still alive!
Me and my family will be in Korea on May 17-26. OSL Finals, let me watch you!
My best wishes to you!~ May it be the highlight of your trip and esports passion!!~
Honestly, I only want the cream of the crops in this OSL.... no Killer, SOo, Shine. pleaseeeeee. Does Hiya still have his progaming license?
On March 21 2012 16:48 Kanil wrote: Is this the thread where I have to make my outlandish predictions about Bisu before he has a chance to lose in the prelims?
Okay, so like... Bisu, man. Stomps through his prelims and into the ODT, crushes his group 2-0. Flattens his Ro16 3-0, kills Shine badly somewhere along the line (possibly in ODT and in the groups) before dropping Flash 2-0 in the Ro8. He then mauls Jaedong 3-0 in horribly lopsided games, before advancing to face Killer in the finals. Killer's had a yawn of a tournament, besting names like Soo, Hydra, and EffOrt - it's KvZ, so nobody's really surprised or expecting much.
This is Bisu's OSL, right? The fans show up in droves, everyone's expecting it to happen.
Killer is no Jaedong and he falls easily to a cannon rush in game 1. Bisu even has free time to build a heart out of pylons in the middle of the map.
Onto game 2, and Bisu again shows his supreme prowess at everything ever. He gets so bored that he queues up some dark templars and leaves his booth to arrange an impromptu meeting with his fangirls. Every five minutes or so he briefly retreats back to his booth to queue up some more DTs.
Game three and Killer still doesn't stand a chance. As Bisu orders his units into Killer's base to deliver the killing blow, he hits enter and types GG, and waits. He waits patiently, watching the zealots tear through Killer's defenses, waiting for that moment when he is to be crowned OSL champion. As Killer frantically goes to pull his last 3 drones to kill Bisu's 25 zealots, he notices his mouse isn't working. He types out "pp" and having learned his lesson, he waits for the refs to pause the game. Bisu, hearing the incoming chat noise and seeing the two little characters appear on screen, instantly slams his enter key and leaves the game. He bursts out of his booth triumphantly, as Killer sees "Congratulations! You are victorious!" on his screen. KeSPA rules that Bisu GG'd and left, so Killer was clearly the victory.
Game four is on Blood Bath, and Killer 4pools. Bisu loses ezpz.
Game five, Killer breaks out the dreaded hydra bust. Bisu cannot hold.
An outpouring of rage erupts across the internet as Bisu fans express their displeasure and dismay. Team Liquid is instantly drowned in the shitstorm and goes down. Every attempt to restore the website is immediately swamped in an unceasing torrent of anger. Eventually attempts are given up, and Team Liquid shuts down. In fact, every website shuts down as Bisu fans rage across the entirety of the internet. Meanwhile in Seoul (and, let's face it, everywhere else!) there is rioting in the streets. An angry mob attempts to literally tear Killer apart, but Jaedong arrives just in time to death stare them all away and escort Killer back to the KeSPA house.
The consequences of this new internetless age ripple through society, but fortunately there's still television, and BW does have lan support. Bisu will try again in the next OSL. One unfortunate casualty is that of Jaedong's career, for he now must be present at all official matches as a bodyguard to keep the fans in order. Still, with no internet people suddenly have a lot more free time on their hands to watch StarCraft, and this OSL is eventually heralded as a revitalization of professional Brood War.
Killer's gonna win the OSL.
That brought up so much bad feelings that I haven't felt in a long time. So fuck you, Kanil.
let's see where this takes us to. if it turnes out to be a major success i hope that there will be more osl s in the future! i mean we can still have dreams right?
I'm actually gonna root for Fantasy for this OSL. Flash is still yet to face a terran in an OSL/MSL finals . Stork, Movie, Effort, Zero, Jaedong 100x etc... what about an epic TvT Bo5 like their Bigfile MSL semi final series!?
loyal BW fans, we should really start a donation or something. O.o I really cannot watch this die. On the other hand, HOLY CRAP OMFG. My day cannot be ruined. You can try, but it can't.
On March 21 2012 15:56 Zzoram wrote: I really, really hope that Flash takes home a 4th OSL. It would be the perfect send off to Broodwar's final year.
Nah Jaedong winning would be the perfect send off :D
No, Flash winning would be, because Broodwar has to end with Flash holding the most titles. He's clearly the best player ever and the most consistent, so it would be a shame if he had to share the title record with NaDa.
I'd have to say Hyuk winning would be the greatest ending to it all.
On March 21 2012 15:56 Zzoram wrote: I really, really hope that Flash takes home a 4th OSL. It would be the perfect send off to Broodwar's final year.
Nah Jaedong winning would be the perfect send off :D
No, Flash winning would be, because Broodwar has to end with Flash holding the most titles. He's clearly the best player ever and the most consistent, so it would be a shame if he had to share the title record with NaDa.
I'd have to say Hyuk winning would be the greatest ending to it all.
Sea passing the Ro8, winning OSL marks the end of BW. Calling it now + Show Spoiler +
it will never end :D:D
Fixed it.
This is probably the first time I am not cheering for anyone in particular, the mere announcement of this OSL made my week, I just want to see good games. If I was not already flying to see the PL Grand finals, I'd definitely fly to see this OSL finals. Let's just enjoy enjoy enjoy enjoy
if it starts in a little over a week, then shouldn't the brackets be3 out very soon. We need that mass speculation on who will make it or how tossgirl/reach/whoever actually have a chance this time.
On March 22 2012 00:07 CrtBalorda wrote: Finally, good god I hope its good, at least there will be a lot of hype behind it, considering there was 2 years? since the last OSL.
Flash and Fantasy on huge streaks, Jaedong still strong, Bisu probably able to rise to a challenge, Stork still strong, Leta strong.... This one is gonna be amazing. So many players did well during the PL it'll be exciting to see a proper individual tournament with them
On March 22 2012 00:07 CrtBalorda wrote: Finally, good god I hope its good, at least there will be a lot of hype behind it, considering there was 2 years? since the last OSL.
Jung Laden will make it to his third straight OSL finals. Flash will lose in the round of 8 to Hyuk, and his fanboys will start to realize that he is never going to win another OSL. Movie makes a miracle run to the finals, beating down Bogus in an amazing series in the semis. Fantasy wins his 2nd OSL.
Edit: The viewership is so high that companies are lining up to sponsor the OSL, like fanboys lining up to get a Bisu autograph.
This will be my first OSL and I'm damn excited. Seems like it'll be the last too but we can dream right? Plus, SVT and Youtube/MSL torrents are sill going.
시자ㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏ+ Show Spoiler +
ㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏ+ Show Spoiler +
ㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏㅏ악+ Show Spoiler +
I wonder who will elminate Bisu from the qualifiers this time. My bets are on hOn_sin, or herO[jOin]. Maybe Shine will fulfill his destiny and eliminate Bisu again.
LG should sponsor T8 and the new OSL, they're the main samsung rival on the korean/world market, it would be a very smart move but am i only dreaming? + Show Spoiler +
Not that I particularly like Bisu, It'd just be so satisfying to see Sea crush his old teammate and the #1 protoss at the same time. Would be so fitting :'D. But that assumes Sea makes it past the ro8...and actually does well vs Toss...or any TBLS members (group of death memories).
You guys are so passionate holy shit can't imagine what it would be like to be part of this awesome community, the sc2 community is pretty fucking terrible compared to this :O
I only started following BW when Jangbi won his OSL (it was literally the first games I saw since Klazart stopped casting). It would be awesome to be able to see one from start to finnish=)
Jaedong vs Bisu would be huge for ratings. Actually, any TBLS final would be. I'd be fine with any one of them winning, but it would suck if Jaedong or Stork got a 5th silver. BaBy would be a cool surprise.
On March 21 2012 16:48 Kanil wrote: Is this the thread where I have to make my outlandish predictions about Bisu before he has a chance to lose in the prelims?
Okay, so like... Bisu, man. Stomps through his prelims and into the ODT, crushes his group 2-0. Flattens his Ro16 3-0, kills Shine badly somewhere along the line (possibly in ODT and in the groups) before dropping Flash 2-0 in the Ro8. He then mauls Jaedong 3-0 in horribly lopsided games, before advancing to face Killer in the finals. Killer's had a yawn of a tournament, besting names like Soo, Hydra, and EffOrt - it's KvZ, so nobody's really surprised or expecting much.
This is Bisu's OSL, right? The fans show up in droves, everyone's expecting it to happen.
Killer is no Jaedong and he falls easily to a cannon rush in game 1. Bisu even has free time to build a heart out of pylons in the middle of the map.
Onto game 2, and Bisu again shows his supreme prowess at everything ever. He gets so bored that he queues up some dark templars and leaves his booth to arrange an impromptu meeting with his fangirls. Every five minutes or so he briefly retreats back to his booth to queue up some more DTs.
Game three and Killer still doesn't stand a chance. As Bisu orders his units into Killer's base to deliver the killing blow, he hits enter and types GG, and waits. He waits patiently, watching the zealots tear through Killer's defenses, waiting for that moment when he is to be crowned OSL champion. As Killer frantically goes to pull his last 3 drones to kill Bisu's 25 zealots, he notices his mouse isn't working. He types out "pp" and having learned his lesson, he waits for the refs to pause the game. Bisu, hearing the incoming chat noise and seeing the two little characters appear on screen, instantly slams his enter key and leaves the game. He bursts out of his booth triumphantly, as Killer sees "Congratulations! You are victorious!" on his screen. KeSPA rules that Bisu GG'd and left, so Killer was clearly the victory.
Game four is on Blood Bath, and Killer 4pools. Bisu loses ezpz.
Game five, Killer breaks out the dreaded hydra bust. Bisu cannot hold.
An outpouring of rage erupts across the internet as Bisu fans express their displeasure and dismay. Team Liquid is instantly drowned in the shitstorm and goes down. Every attempt to restore the website is immediately swamped in an unceasing torrent of anger. Eventually attempts are given up, and Team Liquid shuts down. In fact, every website shuts down as Bisu fans rage across the entirety of the internet. Meanwhile in Seoul (and, let's face it, everywhere else!) there is rioting in the streets. An angry mob attempts to literally tear Killer apart, but Jaedong arrives just in time to death stare them all away and escort Killer back to the KeSPA house.
The consequences of this new internetless age ripple through society, but fortunately there's still television, and BW does have lan support. Bisu will try again in the next OSL. One unfortunate casualty is that of Jaedong's career, for he now must be present at all official matches as a bodyguard to keep the fans in order. Still, with no internet people suddenly have a lot more free time on their hands to watch StarCraft, and this OSL is eventually heralded as a revitalization of professional Brood War.
THE GLORIOUS MANTOSS WILL WIN THIS OSL Reach goes on a rampage through the prelims Followed by beating ANYONE Beats Jaedong in Ro16 Beats Flash Plays Hyuk/Movie/Fantasy in finals If playing Fantasy, after Reach wins, Boxer comes around to play a show match in those costumes they used to wear <3 Yeah, a man can dream
Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
You cant voice your opinion here by indirectly saying you want BW dead "Darn, still not switching to SC2?" Here, the word "still" and the phrase in general, in my opinion was understood as you are tired of high class players still playing old ass ugly BW. And you want them to play SC2. You might not have meant it that way, but it felt like that to me.
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
I am itching to post "still not playing LoL yet ?" because it's currently the new esport in town actually . Big prize money,more tournaments, more events and more players . One day I have to watch a LoL osl and I guess it will be fun .
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
<RTS Comment> This isn't to say BW isn't one of if not the best RTS in the world right now, but it really could benefit from alot of improvements. If only blizzard would make BW HD or take what they learned from BW, SC2 and WC3 and make some kind of uber rts; unit micro in WC3 has more micro capacity for example because the game is much more focused on a few units for the majority of the game and nearly every unit has distinct micro-able abilities beyond Hold / move / attack (hell it's a game where unit turning radius / speed matters), I'm even gonna say that SC2 does have MUCH better Unit AI than BW, results of the automation is that it's alot more accessible but taking control away from the player is going to make it less "rewarding" for some people.
BW is definitely the most impressive over all but I doubt it's going to be the best RTS forever, as much as I love BW it's very much a personal preference.People need to understand that alot of the charms of BW come from the fact its so analog driven and nearly nothing is automated, and if you understand the nuances it becomes very rewarding to watch, but that is not a conscious design decision. It's simply a constraint imposed on the engine and technology available at the time. Gamers are going to ask for better designed, better scripted, better presented (with out even touching on graphics) games.
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
Skill debates between players of the two games I think is completely irrelevant, beyond RTS concepts the two games handle almost entirely differently. It's completely redundant to fan boy or anti-fan players who make switches between games just as it's redundant to say that basketball is a worse sport than baseball (or the other way around) after watching Michael Jordan perform badly play baseball; the two sports share team work and physical component concepts and that's it. Is it interesting to wonder / speculate how X BW player would do if they swapped to SC2? Yes, just as it is interesting to see how X SC2 player would do if he swapped to BW. Is it worth dividing an entire community when the community has common interests in seeing esports progress? Hell no. Because rather or not you prefer to watch it is entirely personal preference.
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
You cant voice your opinion here by indirectly saying you want BW dead "Darn, still not switching to SC2?" Here, the word "still" and the phrase in general, in my opinion was understood as you are tired of high class players still playing old ass ugly BW. And you want them to play SC2. You might not have meant it that way, but it felt like that to me.
Damn dude you're reading way too much into those few words. Talk about switch has been going around for a few months. And April was mentioned in particular. So the still doesn't mean anything more than its dictionary definition. Are all you BW guys really sensitive about your sport or is it just you?
Edit: Also, if you're nitpicky about his post you should quote the word "Dam" not "still." The "dam" indicates unsatisfactory results, hence wanting BW dead. The 'still' really means nothing, man.
On March 22 2012 17:18 Dakure wrote: Damn dude you're reading way too much into those few words. Talk about switch has been going around for a few months. And April was mentioned in particular. So the still doesn't mean anything more than its dictionary definition. Are all you BW guys really sensitive about your sport or is it just you?
Edit: Also, if you're nitpicky about his post you should quote the word "Dam" not "still." The "dam" indicates unsatisfactory results, hence wanting BW dead. The 'still' really means nothing, man.
Mentioning SC2 when it has nothing to do with BW is a good way to piss people off, because we know that you're not saying mentioning it "just cause".
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
All this discussion of BW being a "flawed game" is just bullshit. If these so-called "design flaws" improve the game then how can they be flaws? Yes, a lot of things that we love about BW are unintentional on Blizzard's part. Who cares? They make the game better. Why on earth would we need to improve them?
I just don't understand why SC2 fans love to point out how BW is "flawed". Yes, maybe a large part of BW's balance was an accident. At least it is balanced and entertaining to watch. SC2 is neither. But oh wait, at least it is "more polished" and more "technically capable".
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
All this discussion of BW being a "flawed game" is just bullshit. If these so-called "design flaws" improve the game then how can they be flaws? Yes, a lot of things that we love about BW are unintentional on Blizzard's part. Who cares? They make the game better. Why on earth would we need to improve them?
I just don't understand why SC2 fans love to point out how BW is "flawed". Yes, maybe a large part of BW's balance was an accident. At least it is balanced and entertaining to watch. SC2 is neither. But oh wait, at least it is "more polished" and more "technically capable".
They are flaws because they aren't intentional design decisions as well as being glitches / bugs that any programmer would facepalm at? Are units supposed to be able to pass through a solid building because a worker is mining minerals next to it? And I made it clear that improving on certain things in certain ways, while not personally preferable to some people, are exactly what gamers are going to ask for. No one is going to ask programmers to intentionally leave glitches and bugs that are completely illogical in games nowadays, BW gets away with it because it's become a part of the officially sanctioned meta game via map making and official rules, even then certain bugs DO limit the effectiveness of certain units (imagine if reavers didn't dud, imagine if terrans didn't have to watch their Valkyrie count because of projectile limit, there was even debate about rather muta stacking should be allowed, rather lifting buildings to crush interceptors is a legitimate strategy, etc). I'm not looking for people to change BW, far from it, I'm asking people to understand why people love the game, why I personally love the game, despite its flaws. I made my post specifically to explain that it's personal preference and to discourage people from hating on either game.
And we should care because it's entirely possible to incorporate / create more imaginative combinations of unit control / positioning scenarios with new engines and technology that aren't even possible with in the BW engine, how much more amazing would new rts' be if there were officially sanctioned ways of controlling units that the programmers left in because they understand how illogical (by practical standards) concepts can be incorporated into a game that makes it more interesting to play / watch? Some obvious examples of ideas that they left in the game that you might not have even noticed from BW to SC2 are: you can control where the scv's position is while constructing a building by stopping construction and resuming it from a direction / with another scv. You can still avoid projectiles on ground units by lifting them in and out of dropships. Etc. An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
All this discussion of BW being a "flawed game" is just bullshit. If these so-called "design flaws" improve the game then how can they be flaws? Yes, a lot of things that we love about BW are unintentional on Blizzard's part. Who cares? They make the game better. Why on earth would we need to improve them?
I just don't understand why SC2 fans love to point out how BW is "flawed". Yes, maybe a large part of BW's balance was an accident. At least it is balanced and entertaining to watch. SC2 is neither. But oh wait, at least it is "more polished" and more "technically capable".
They are flaws because they aren't intentional design decisions as well as being glitches / bugs that any programmer would facepalm at? Are units supposed to be able to pass through a solid building because a worker is mining minerals next to it? And I made it clear that improving on certain things in certain ways, while not personally preferable to some people, are exactly what gamers are going to ask for. No one is going to ask programmers to intentionally leave glitches and bugs that are completely illogical in games nowadays, BW gets away with it because it's become a part of the officially sanctioned meta game via map making and official rules, even then certain bugs DO limit the effectiveness of certain units (imagine if reavers didn't dud, imagine if terrans didn't have to watch their Valkyrie count because of projectile limit, there was even debate about rather muta stacking should be allowed, rather lifting buildings to crush interceptors is a legitimate strategy, etc). I'm not looking for people to change BW, far from it, I'm asking people to understand why people love the game, why I personally love the game, despite its flaws. I made my post specifically to explain that it's personal preference and to discourage people from hating on either game.
And we should care because it's entirely possible to incorporate / create more imaginative combinations of unit control / positioning scenarios with new engines and technology that aren't even possible with in the BW engine, how much more amazing would new rts' be if there were officially sanctioned ways of controlling units that the programmers left in because they understand how illogical (by practical standards) concepts can be incorporated into a game that makes it more interesting to play / watch? Some obvious examples of ideas that they left in the game that you might not have even noticed from BW to SC2 are: you can control where the scv's position is while constructing a building by stopping construction and resuming it from a direction / with another scv. You can still avoid projectiles on ground units by lifting them in and out of dropships. Etc. An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
We can argue about technical details and definitiond under which a game is better tham the other with no end.
However, historically, its hard to argue that BroodWar is the game that has provided the most value as a competitive game; or if you want to say, "eSport".
Why watch the top RTS players, Brood War players, not play Brood War? BW and SCII are different games. You have no guarantee SCII will provide the resources for the players to display their skills to their full capacity. It defeats the purpose.
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
All this discussion of BW being a "flawed game" is just bullshit. If these so-called "design flaws" improve the game then how can they be flaws? Yes, a lot of things that we love about BW are unintentional on Blizzard's part. Who cares? They make the game better. Why on earth would we need to improve them?
I just don't understand why SC2 fans love to point out how BW is "flawed". Yes, maybe a large part of BW's balance was an accident. At least it is balanced and entertaining to watch. SC2 is neither. But oh wait, at least it is "more polished" and more "technically capable".
They are flaws because they aren't intentional design decisions as well as being glitches / bugs that any programmer would facepalm at? Are units supposed to be able to pass through a solid building because a worker is mining minerals next to it? And I made it clear that improving on certain things in certain ways, while not personally preferable to some people, are exactly what gamers are going to ask for. No one is going to ask programmers to intentionally leave glitches and bugs that are completely illogical in games nowadays, BW gets away with it because it's become a part of the officially sanctioned meta game via map making and official rules, even then certain bugs DO limit the effectiveness of certain units (imagine if reavers didn't dud, imagine if terrans didn't have to watch their Valkyrie count because of projectile limit, there was even debate about rather muta stacking should be allowed, rather lifting buildings to crush interceptors is a legitimate strategy, etc). I'm not looking for people to change BW, far from it, I'm asking people to understand why people love the game, why I personally love the game, despite its flaws. I made my post specifically to explain that it's personal preference and to discourage people from hating on either game.
And we should care because it's entirely possible to incorporate / create more imaginative combinations of unit control / positioning scenarios with new engines and technology that aren't even possible with in the BW engine, how much more amazing would new rts' be if there were officially sanctioned ways of controlling units that the programmers left in because they understand how illogical (by practical standards) concepts can be incorporated into a game that makes it more interesting to play / watch? Some obvious examples of ideas that they left in the game that you might not have even noticed from BW to SC2 are: you can control where the scv's position is while constructing a building by stopping construction and resuming it from a direction / with another scv. You can still avoid projectiles on ground units by lifting them in and out of dropships. Etc. An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
I enjoy reading your arguments and have nothing to add on either side but can you stop using rather for whether? Grammer Nazi sorry...
On March 22 2012 16:08 Caihead wrote: The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
Does simply underlining a word for emphasis make a claim self-evident? These things aren't flaws. Convinced yet?
All games are about arbitrary restrictions, rules. And every rule in BW's rule set was put there quite deliberately by its designers, whether they foresaw all the possible consequences or not*. It wasn't fairies that gave the Reaver an attack that needs to path to its target, or that programmed the AI by which it does so. And it was a 100% conscious design choice to include Reavers in the game despite the unpredictability of scarabs, which they were well aware of. Would they have done something different with different tools and resources? Of course, but when has that ever mattered? (Jaws was not made worse because the mechanical sharks kept malfunctioning and Spielberg was forced to rely on classic cinematic techniques to create suspense.)
The sole criterion by which you say a rule is flawed or not is how it shapes the gameplay experience, whether to be more challenging or less challenging, or more restrictive or less restrictive, or whatever it is the player is looking for. And this judgement, as you say, is very much a personal preference. You should have left it at that.
*And of course they didn't, because no designer does.
I can't translate anything since this article is from fomos.
But it seems like Park Wan Kyu is interested in donating money so that OSL can happen without a hassle. I don't know anything about how much he wants to donate or any other details except according to fomos, OGN staff has stated that this rumor is true.
On March 21 2012 16:48 Kanil wrote: Is this the thread where I have to make my outlandish predictions about Bisu before he has a chance to lose in the prelims?
Okay, so like... Bisu, man. Stomps through his prelims and into the ODT, crushes his group 2-0. Flattens his Ro16 3-0, kills Shine badly somewhere along the line (possibly in ODT and in the groups) before dropping Flash 2-0 in the Ro8. He then mauls Jaedong 3-0 in horribly lopsided games, before advancing to face Killer in the finals. Killer's had a yawn of a tournament, besting names like Soo, Hydra, and EffOrt - it's KvZ, so nobody's really surprised or expecting much.
This is Bisu's OSL, right? The fans show up in droves, everyone's expecting it to happen.
Killer is no Jaedong and he falls easily to a cannon rush in game 1. Bisu even has free time to build a heart out of pylons in the middle of the map.
Onto game 2, and Bisu again shows his supreme prowess at everything ever. He gets so bored that he queues up some dark templars and leaves his booth to arrange an impromptu meeting with his fangirls. Every five minutes or so he briefly retreats back to his booth to queue up some more DTs.
Game three and Killer still doesn't stand a chance. As Bisu orders his units into Killer's base to deliver the killing blow, he hits enter and types GG, and waits. He waits patiently, watching the zealots tear through Killer's defenses, waiting for that moment when he is to be crowned OSL champion. As Killer frantically goes to pull his last 3 drones to kill Bisu's 25 zealots, he notices his mouse isn't working. He types out "pp" and having learned his lesson, he waits for the refs to pause the game. Bisu, hearing the incoming chat noise and seeing the two little characters appear on screen, instantly slams his enter key and leaves the game. He bursts out of his booth triumphantly, as Killer sees "Congratulations! You are victorious!" on his screen. KeSPA rules that Bisu GG'd and left, so Killer was clearly the victory.
Game four is on Blood Bath, and Killer 4pools. Bisu loses ezpz.
Game five, Killer breaks out the dreaded hydra bust. Bisu cannot hold.
An outpouring of rage erupts across the internet as Bisu fans express their displeasure and dismay. Team Liquid is instantly drowned in the shitstorm and goes down. Every attempt to restore the website is immediately swamped in an unceasing torrent of anger. Eventually attempts are given up, and Team Liquid shuts down. In fact, every website shuts down as Bisu fans rage across the entirety of the internet. Meanwhile in Seoul (and, let's face it, everywhere else!) there is rioting in the streets. An angry mob attempts to literally tear Killer apart, but Jaedong arrives just in time to death stare them all away and escort Killer back to the KeSPA house.
The consequences of this new internetless age ripple through society, but fortunately there's still television, and BW does have lan support. Bisu will try again in the next OSL. One unfortunate casualty is that of Jaedong's career, for he now must be present at all official matches as a bodyguard to keep the fans in order. Still, with no internet people suddenly have a lot more free time on their hands to watch StarCraft, and this OSL is eventually heralded as a revitalization of professional Brood War.
Killer's gonna win the OSL.
I laughed so hard at this. Best OSL prediction ever.
On March 22 2012 23:46 supernovamaniac wrote: I can't translate anything since this article is from fomos.
But it seems like Park Wan Kyu is interested in donating money so that OSL can happen without a hassle. I don't know anything about how much he wants to donate or any other details except according to fomos, OGN staff has stated that this rumor is true.
Park Wan Gyu is boss. What can I say? He really loves Starcraft.
On March 22 2012 23:46 supernovamaniac wrote: I can't translate anything since this article is from fomos.
But it seems like Park Wan Kyu is interested in donating money so that OSL can happen without a hassle. I don't know anything about how much he wants to donate or any other details except according to fomos, OGN staff has stated that this rumor is true.
Park Wan Gyu is boss. What can I say? He really loves Starcraft.
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
All this discussion of BW being a "flawed game" is just bullshit. If these so-called "design flaws" improve the game then how can they be flaws? Yes, a lot of things that we love about BW are unintentional on Blizzard's part. Who cares? They make the game better. Why on earth would we need to improve them?
I just don't understand why SC2 fans love to point out how BW is "flawed". Yes, maybe a large part of BW's balance was an accident. At least it is balanced and entertaining to watch. SC2 is neither. But oh wait, at least it is "more polished" and more "technically capable".
They are flaws because they aren't intentional design decisions as well as being glitches / bugs that any programmer would facepalm at? Are units supposed to be able to pass through a solid building because a worker is mining minerals next to it? And I made it clear that improving on certain things in certain ways, while not personally preferable to some people, are exactly what gamers are going to ask for. No one is going to ask programmers to intentionally leave glitches and bugs that are completely illogical in games nowadays, BW gets away with it because it's become a part of the officially sanctioned meta game via map making and official rules, even then certain bugs DO limit the effectiveness of certain units (imagine if reavers didn't dud, imagine if terrans didn't have to watch their Valkyrie count because of projectile limit, there was even debate about rather muta stacking should be allowed, rather lifting buildings to crush interceptors is a legitimate strategy, etc). I'm not looking for people to change BW, far from it, I'm asking people to understand why people love the game, why I personally love the game, despite its flaws. I made my post specifically to explain that it's personal preference and to discourage people from hating on either game.
And we should care because it's entirely possible to incorporate / create more imaginative combinations of unit control / positioning scenarios with new engines and technology that aren't even possible with in the BW engine, how much more amazing would new rts' be if there were officially sanctioned ways of controlling units that the programmers left in because they understand how illogical (by practical standards) concepts can be incorporated into a game that makes it more interesting to play / watch? Some obvious examples of ideas that they left in the game that you might not have even noticed from BW to SC2 are: you can control where the scv's position is while constructing a building by stopping construction and resuming it from a direction / with another scv. You can still avoid projectiles on ground units by lifting them in and out of dropships. Etc. An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
oh god not one of these again....
btw, ur using the wrong context when defining "flawed". who cares whether dragoon ai is a lack of optimization in the program code.
within the context of the game as an esports platform, hard dragoon ai is something that actually increases the skill-ceiling and hence improves the game from an esports viewpoint.
are you really going to say that mutalisk stacking is flawed? LOL you do know that mutalisk stacking is pretty much what makes ZvT viable and makes it infinitely more interesting
On March 22 2012 19:37 Caihead wrote:An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
Right clicking a vortex with a bunch of archons: the apex of high level play
On March 22 2012 13:31 Xinflames wrote: Not trolling, I want to see to see the best RTS players in the world play SC2. I was never into the BW scene, but I have heard how much higher the caliber of play is vs the current SC2 progammers. I think it will be very exciting to see the "old" vs "new" and really shake up the SC2 scene. And I lurk everyday on TL but hardly post, so I can't voice opinion? Just saying
If you want to see the best RTS players in the world, you might as well see them play the best RTS in the world. Why dillute the experience?
The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
All this discussion of BW being a "flawed game" is just bullshit. If these so-called "design flaws" improve the game then how can they be flaws? Yes, a lot of things that we love about BW are unintentional on Blizzard's part. Who cares? They make the game better. Why on earth would we need to improve them?
I just don't understand why SC2 fans love to point out how BW is "flawed". Yes, maybe a large part of BW's balance was an accident. At least it is balanced and entertaining to watch. SC2 is neither. But oh wait, at least it is "more polished" and more "technically capable".
They are flaws because they aren't intentional design decisions as well as being glitches / bugs that any programmer would facepalm at? Are units supposed to be able to pass through a solid building because a worker is mining minerals next to it? And I made it clear that improving on certain things in certain ways, while not personally preferable to some people, are exactly what gamers are going to ask for. No one is going to ask programmers to intentionally leave glitches and bugs that are completely illogical in games nowadays, BW gets away with it because it's become a part of the officially sanctioned meta game via map making and official rules, even then certain bugs DO limit the effectiveness of certain units (imagine if reavers didn't dud, imagine if terrans didn't have to watch their Valkyrie count because of projectile limit, there was even debate about rather muta stacking should be allowed, rather lifting buildings to crush interceptors is a legitimate strategy, etc). I'm not looking for people to change BW, far from it, I'm asking people to understand why people love the game, why I personally love the game, despite its flaws. I made my post specifically to explain that it's personal preference and to discourage people from hating on either game.
And we should care because it's entirely possible to incorporate / create more imaginative combinations of unit control / positioning scenarios with new engines and technology that aren't even possible with in the BW engine, how much more amazing would new rts' be if there were officially sanctioned ways of controlling units that the programmers left in because they understand how illogical (by practical standards) concepts can be incorporated into a game that makes it more interesting to play / watch? Some obvious examples of ideas that they left in the game that you might not have even noticed from BW to SC2 are: you can control where the scv's position is while constructing a building by stopping construction and resuming it from a direction / with another scv. You can still avoid projectiles on ground units by lifting them in and out of dropships. Etc. An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
oh god not one of these again....
btw, ur using the wrong context when defining "flawed". who cares whether dragoon ai is a lack of optimization in the program code.
within the context of the game as an esports platform, hard dragoon ai is something that actually increases the skill-ceiling and hence improves the game from an esports viewpoint.
are you really going to say that mutalisk stacking is flawed? LOL you do know that mutalisk stacking is pretty much what makes ZvT viable and makes it infinitely more interesting
Why has no one on this thread actually read my post from start to finish. I already said that: 1.Whether a game has programming flaws / how capable the engine is irrelevant to how the meta game develops, how complex the game becomes, or how your personal enjoyment of the game is. 2. BW is the best RTS despite inherent design flaws, glitches, and bugs and the meta game has evolved around inherent limitations of the engine. But gamers themselves are not going to ask for new games with glitches / bugs in them because their own evaluation of games is dependent on a bug free game. This reminds me of counter strike where abusing jump and crouch speeds up the player, and firing then immediately switching to another weapon if it's bolt action. I'm critiquing it on a programming term only, again, is it logical for units to pass through solid objects because a worker is mining minerals next to it? Is it logical for projectiles to be limited where valkyries don't even fire and become useless? SC2 is an RTS where many of the inherent limitations of the engine have been removed and many processes are automated, and that makes it less rewarding for some people. 3. Discussing individual player skill between BW and SC2 is meaningless. 4. Starting hate between the two games when both communities are in reality the same community that both wants to see esports grow is stupid. 5. I personally like BW because of its analog nature and the meta game that has developed around it which has been officially endorsed and sanctioned, and I'm asking other people to understand why people enjoy the game. But even then many of the bugs and glitches have been banned from professional play. What I'm saying is that there can be intention to make an RTS (with out changing BW, I'm not replacing BW, I'm not looking to ask people to play a different game than BW) where there is the intention of having more unique unit positioning / mechanics if we learn from what makes BW unique and memorable.
And looking at the reactions I've gotten, most people think this means I'm criticizing BW, and every other comment is hating on SC2 for no apparent reason. It's just as stupid to hate on SC2 as a BW fan as it is to hate on BW as a SC2 fan. They can co-exist, and they have co-existed, and we need to deal with this community attitude of BW fans being elitists and SC2 fans being casuals when both parties are completely capable of critical thinking and analysis.
On March 22 2012 19:37 Caihead wrote:An excellent example of SC2 coming up with its own methods of meta-gaming with new abilities which were not inherent design decisions would be the archon toilet where you intentionally let your archons enter a vortex so you can deal massive aoe damage while the units reappear.
Right clicking a vortex with a bunch of archons: the apex of high level play
Christ, I'm not saying rather it's skillful, I'm saying that it's an inventive thing players came up with when they realized the mechanics of the game. Moving your army to bait the zerg into grouping up its army -> vortexing the army with archons -> zerg learning to split up his army is the same meta gaming process as stacking mutas -> irradiating stacked mutas -> knowing to split mutas to avoid irradiation damage. Can we stop inferring rather either game is "skillful" when I'm talking about mechanics and how these mechanics benefit the game even though in alot of cases they are inherent design flaws which could have been an official feature of a game if programmers begin to understand what makes BW so unique?
On March 22 2012 16:08 Caihead wrote: The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
Does simply underlining a word for emphasis make a claim self-evident? These things aren't flaws. Convinced yet?
All games are about arbitrary restrictions, rules. And every rule in BW's rule set was put there quite deliberately by its designers, whether they foresaw all the possible consequences or not*. It wasn't fairies that gave the Reaver an attack that needs to path to its target, or that programmed the AI by which it does so. And it was a 100% conscious design choice to include Reavers in the game despite the unpredictability of scarabs, which they were well aware of. Would they have done something different with different tools and resources? Of course, but when has that ever mattered? (Jaws was not made worse because the mechanical sharks kept malfunctioning and Spielberg was forced to rely on classic cinematic techniques to create suspense.)
The sole criterion by which you say a rule is flawed or not is how it shapes the gameplay experience, whether to be more challenging or less challenging, or more restrictive or less restrictive, or whatever it is the player is looking for. And this judgement, as you say, is very much a personal preference. You should have left it at that.
*And of course they didn't, because no designer does.
It's deliberate to cap the projectile limit of the game so that valkyries are useless in great numbers where as every other unit isn't? The limitations do make BW cooler, but that's very much a personal evaluation. It's like modeling and rear screen projections in old movies being replaced by more technically capable special effects and computer generated graphics; where the limitations made it cooler. What I'm saying is exactly why people hate the majority of new movies that are completely reliant on special effects, that people learn to understand why people liked old things even though they are technically flawed because of the design and human ingenuity to get around these limitations and not allowing them to influence the game's entertainment value. New film makers along with new game developers often forget basics of making a movie / developing a game like understanding how the audience / player base reacts, basics of camera work / story telling / incorporating varied game mechanics and situations etc.
There's no shame nor is it derogatory to say a certain system is flawed, I love modeling and precise camera work and practical special effects, but i'm not going to pretend that those things didn't limit film making. What I would love more is modeling, precise camera work, practical special effects, along with new computer technology all being incorporated; very few film makers understand / learn from past film making just as very few games developers learn from past mistakes.
Sad to see this holly thread turning into a BW vs SC2... Once again SC2 trolls are posting shits in a BW thread with total impunity and BW fans are feeding them.
On March 23 2012 04:19 gds wrote: Sad to see this holly thread turning into a BW vs SC2... Once again SC2 trolls are posting shits in a BW thread with total impunity and BW fans are feeding them.
I'm terribly sorry for posting general rts discussion materials in this thread, but people have not ceased posting here after I PM'ed some of them. Feel free to ignore my comments as you see fit, I just felt that it was important that these comments be made.
On March 22 2012 23:46 supernovamaniac wrote: I can't translate anything since this article is from fomos.
But it seems like Park Wan Kyu is interested in donating money so that OSL can happen without a hassle. I don't know anything about how much he wants to donate or any other details except according to fomos, OGN staff has stated that this rumor is true.
Park Wan Gyu is boss. What can I say? He really loves Starcraft.
On March 23 2012 05:11 ImbaTosS wrote: I hate to ask- who is Park Wan Kyu..? I'm sure I love the dude, since he loves BW.
He's a singer who's a big fan of BW (and Bisu). He's attended a lot of matches and performed in the Jin Air OSL and at YellOw's retirement ceremony. + Show Spoiler +
Does anyone know how much money that is needed for one starleague? Or do anyone think they somehow might be able to find out? Because technically, if there is no sponsor for the next OSL, can't we just start a kickstarter for it and then try to get it sponsored in the name of "The Teamliquid Community"?
This would show the korean Broodwar scene how much support thet got in the international scene and maybe, the knowledge that we, the foreign fans, actually do exist would be able to revive the broodwar scene somehow, getting KESPA to open their eyes and give us streams that we can pay for or something.
I might be a bit too enthusiastic though, but I really think we still might bebig enough group of people to pull it off. I mean, at least the enthusiasm for the game hasn't died yet!
Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying that I should do this, since I'm just a lurker. I'm saying that some well known Team Liquid member very well could.
On March 22 2012 21:47 Rococo wrote: Thrilled by this news.
On March 22 2012 16:08 Caihead wrote: The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
Does simply underlining a word for emphasis make a claim self-evident? These things aren't flaws. Convinced yet?
All games are about arbitrary restrictions, rules. And every rule in BW's rule set was put there quite deliberately by its designers, whether they foresaw all the possible consequences or not*. It wasn't fairies that gave the Reaver an attack that needs to path to its target, or that programmed the AI by which it does so. And it was a 100% conscious design choice to include Reavers in the game despite the unpredictability of scarabs, which they were well aware of. Would they have done something different with different tools and resources? Of course, but when has that ever mattered? (Jaws was not made worse because the mechanical sharks kept malfunctioning and Spielberg was forced to rely on classic cinematic techniques to create suspense.)
The sole criterion by which you say a rule is flawed or not is how it shapes the gameplay experience, whether to be more challenging or less challenging, or more restrictive or less restrictive, or whatever it is the player is looking for. And this judgement, as you say, is very much a personal preference. You should have left it at that.
*And of course they didn't, because no designer does.
It's deliberate to cap the projectile limit of the game so that valkyries are useless in great numbers where as every other unit isn't? The limitations do make BW cooler, but that's very much a personal evaluation. It's like modeling and rear screen projections in old movies being replaced by more technically capable special effects and computer generated graphics; where the limitations made it cooler. What I'm saying is exactly why people hate the majority of new movies that are completely reliant on special effects, that people learn to understand why people liked old things even though they are technically flawed because of the design and human ingenuity to get around these limitations and not allowing them to influence the game's entertainment value. New film makers along with new game developers often forget basics of making a movie / developing a game like understanding how the audience / player base reacts, basics of camera work / story telling / incorporating varied game mechanics and situations etc.
There's no shame nor is it derogatory to say a certain system is flawed, I love modeling and precise camera work and practical special effects, but i'm not going to pretend that those things didn't limit film making. What I would love more is modeling, precise camera work, practical special effects, along with new computer technology all being incorporated; very few film makers understand / learn from past film making just as very few games developers learn from past mistakes.
You're basically just repeating what you said before without addressing the main point of my post, which was that in the context of a game a limitation should be evaluated solely by how it affects gameplay. Aside from the scope of effect, there isn't a significant difference between "Valkyries bug out in large numbers" and "Rooks can only move horizontally and vertically". Both are just restrictions on the use of a piece. Or, for that matter, between "you can only move 12 pieces at a time" and "you can only move 1 piece a turn".
Your movie analogy doesn't make sense because the tools used to make something are separate from its design. Whether a director uses CGI or practical effects for a particular movie is usually incidental to the rest of its construction. If she's directing a classic western and uses CGI to create a nice sunset, she won't then put Jar Jar Binks in every scene. Games don't have to do that sort of thing, either. It's okay to have advanced graphics, and even physics and other innovations, without thoughtlessly shoehorning in design elements just because they're considered "modern". (I brought up Jaws to give a popular example of something being shaped in a positive way by its creators not being able to do everything they wanted. It wasn't intended to draw some parallel concerning the clash of old and new technology. I love technology, and wish developers were pushing the envelope far more than they are currently.)
But more on topic, I hope Hydra gets his groove back. Quarter finalist of Jin Air but this season of PL he looked.. less than stellar.
On March 23 2012 07:49 Airwaffle wrote: Does anyone know how much money that is needed for one starleague? Or do anyone think they somehow might be able to find out? Because technically, if there is no sponsor for the next OSL, can't we just start a kickstarter for it and then try to get it sponsored in the name of "The Teamliquid Community"?
Good Lord, I've been thinking about this only today and in fact have been composing a post in which to introduce the idea to TL... There's no chance we could sponsor it fully, but there is a chance we could make a contribution that mattered.
On March 23 2012 07:49 Airwaffle wrote: Does anyone know how much money that is needed for one starleague? Or do anyone think they somehow might be able to find out? Because technically, if there is no sponsor for the next OSL, can't we just start a kickstarter for it and then try to get it sponsored in the name of "The Teamliquid Community"?
Good Lord, I've been thinking about this only today and in fact have been composing a post in which to introduce the idea to TL... There's no chance we could sponsor it fully, but there is a chance we could make a contribution that mattered.
This. I'd donate 50 USD easily, more if my parents didnt realize it (I'm in college, so they still track my bank account). Starcraft/the community around it has been a "brother" to me growing up, since im an only child, god knows what i'd do if it died haha.
Yeah, that's the spirit! I think the best thing would be to ask someone well known and well liked on the forums to start it. Maybe even somebody that knows korean and can communicate what we're trying to do to OGN/KESPA. Somebody we can trust. And then we'll try to get everybody talking about it, like if Sayle mentions it on his stream and stuff.
I guess the hardest thing would be to decide on how much money we would try to collect. Maybe kickstarter isn't really the best option, but I feel it has such a nice money meter, being able to see how much it's currently at and all. Makes you really feel how every contribution count. I think that's kinda important. Just to collect money via Paypal or something, I think might scare many of the potential small contributors away.
On March 22 2012 21:47 Rococo wrote: Thrilled by this news.
On March 22 2012 16:08 Caihead wrote: The debate between which game is better comes down to very simple terms: BW is extremely analog, and many of its inherent design flaws (pathing ai, scarab ai, control group, building grouping, lack of queued orders, etc) have become staple and audiences enjoy watching people perfect their control around these inherent flaws (let's not beat around the bush here, these are flaws, but they are flaws that have made the game much more interesting to watch due to the nature of the engine). Pro-gamers have developed so many techniques from these inherent flaws such as muta stacking (different movement speed units grouped together), avoiding scarab shots, pushing workers / units through minerals or pylon walls, landing units in between tank shots due to them firing simultaneously in range, etc; the progaming scene and the meta has evolved around these facts so much that official maps like outlier are specifically designed so workers / units can glitch through minerals. SC2 is extremely polished, alot of the inherent flaws of BW have been removed or entirely eliminated, the game is much faster and more fluid because of this; but as a result many people who love the analog nature and nuances of BW feel alienated. However I don't think it's a question that the SC2 engine is much more technically capable.
Does simply underlining a word for emphasis make a claim self-evident? These things aren't flaws. Convinced yet?
All games are about arbitrary restrictions, rules. And every rule in BW's rule set was put there quite deliberately by its designers, whether they foresaw all the possible consequences or not*. It wasn't fairies that gave the Reaver an attack that needs to path to its target, or that programmed the AI by which it does so. And it was a 100% conscious design choice to include Reavers in the game despite the unpredictability of scarabs, which they were well aware of. Would they have done something different with different tools and resources? Of course, but when has that ever mattered? (Jaws was not made worse because the mechanical sharks kept malfunctioning and Spielberg was forced to rely on classic cinematic techniques to create suspense.)
The sole criterion by which you say a rule is flawed or not is how it shapes the gameplay experience, whether to be more challenging or less challenging, or more restrictive or less restrictive, or whatever it is the player is looking for. And this judgement, as you say, is very much a personal preference. You should have left it at that.
*And of course they didn't, because no designer does.
It's deliberate to cap the projectile limit of the game so that valkyries are useless in great numbers where as every other unit isn't? The limitations do make BW cooler, but that's very much a personal evaluation. It's like modeling and rear screen projections in old movies being replaced by more technically capable special effects and computer generated graphics; where the limitations made it cooler. What I'm saying is exactly why people hate the majority of new movies that are completely reliant on special effects, that people learn to understand why people liked old things even though they are technically flawed because of the design and human ingenuity to get around these limitations and not allowing them to influence the game's entertainment value. New film makers along with new game developers often forget basics of making a movie / developing a game like understanding how the audience / player base reacts, basics of camera work / story telling / incorporating varied game mechanics and situations etc.
There's no shame nor is it derogatory to say a certain system is flawed, I love modeling and precise camera work and practical special effects, but i'm not going to pretend that those things didn't limit film making. What I would love more is modeling, precise camera work, practical special effects, along with new computer technology all being incorporated; very few film makers understand / learn from past film making just as very few games developers learn from past mistakes.
You're basically just repeating what you said before without addressing the main point of my post, which was that in the context of a game a limitation should be evaluated solely by how it affects gameplay. Aside from the scope of effect, there isn't a significant difference between "Valkyries bug out in large numbers" and "Rooks can only move horizontally and vertically". Both are just restrictions on the use of a piece. Or, for that matter, between "you can only move 12 pieces at a time" and "you can only move 1 piece a turn".
Your movie analogy doesn't make sense because the tools used to make something are separate from its design. Whether a director uses CGI or practical effects for a particular movie is usually incidental to the rest of its construction. If she's directing a classic western and uses CGI to create a nice sunset, she won't then put Jar Jar Binks in every scene. Games don't have to do that sort of thing, either. It's okay to have advanced graphics, and even physics and other innovations, without thoughtlessly shoehorning in design elements just because they're considered "modern". (I brought up Jaws to give a popular example of something being shaped in a positive way by its creators not being able to do everything they wanted. It wasn't intended to draw some parallel concerning the clash of old and new technology. I love technology, and wish developers were pushing the envelope far more than they are currently.)
But more on topic, I hope Hydra gets his groove back. Quarter finalist of Jin Air but this season of PL he looked.. less than stellar.
First of all. The engine that the game runs in, the platform the game runs in, these are all part of the tools that are used to make something. The BW engine is limited in this respect, the projectile limitation is a part of the limitations set out by the engine, so is unit collision / pathing through solid objects. These are figured out post release and blizzard has infact had official statements and attempts to fix these issues but they were unable to due to the nature of the engine that they built BW on. A inherent limitation based on the technology present at the time is absolutely not an intentional design decision, as much as it's an intentional design decision for atari 2600 games to require cartridges and be unable to render vector graphics. The intention of the original King Kong was to tell a story that had a giant ape in it, the choice to use models, puppets, rear screen projects, etc, were choices made because it was the best possible choices that they had at the time, based on the limitations of filming technology. If the director had access to modern day special effects and computer editing they would have absolutely tried using those too. Blizzard did an amazing job on BW with the technology that they had at the time, and I'm critiquing the technical aspects as they are, and I'm appreciating the game for what it is.
Alot of limitations do certainly become features of the game but, like I said, unless it's officially sanctioned as a positive feature of the game and recognized by the community, is only detrimental to the game. No one is going to argue that muta stacking, mineral pathing, etc haven't become intricate parts of the game, but that's only because the community agreed on these facts rather than rejecting them for being horrendously buggy. Whether or not it's a positive or negative feature is irrelevant to the fact that they are flaws.
And like I said, gamers are NEVER going to ask for newer games that have similar bugs or glitches with in them, unless there was an intention and explanation and actual understanding of how these mechanics benefit the game and make it more interesting. To do that you have to: 1. Understand the limitations of the engine or platform your game is on. 2. Understand that flaws and features that may be incidental could benefit or completely ruin a game. 3. Implement as many positive features and learn from past mistakes as possible. Perfect examples of this: Blizzard removed mineral glitching and unit glitching through objects entirely in SC2. It was entirely possible for them to have left that as an INTENTIONAL DESIGN DECISION, but they decided it was a UNDESIRABLE bug with in the BW engine, and even though the new SC2 engine is more than capable of handling that process, they removed it. So that aspect of play is completely gone completely from official matches. Blizzard fixed projectile limits which were limitations of the previous game, so now you can have 8 player max pop armies and not worry about any projectiles limits or what unit you are producing. Whether or not these features contributed to the game is entirely of your own opinion, but the technical advancement in the engine is undisputed. In my opinion removing many of the glitches that have become staple of BW made SC2 alot less exciting and bland.
It just seems like you are upset over the word "flaw", would you preferred if I just called them incidental / unintentional features? There's a difference between saying a game has flaws and saying a game is flawed in that I'm passing judgement on it. Is Deus Ex flawed? Is the original mario brothers / pokemon flawed? Yes, all of these games have flaws, and alot of the flaws are based on the platform and technology they ran on; as do Brood War, as do SC2. There's no point pretending that we have a flawless game. Allied mines, buildings crushing interceptors, glitching workers to teleport, build anywhere, or making the command center float closer to the minerals, etc, these are all features that have been banned from official play because they would give the player an unfair advantage so much so that it breaks any competitive play.
I used the movie example because physical assets / tools / environments to make a game / movie are completely independent of how the movie is directed, casted, acted, shot, how good the story is, how it's persented, and so on. Just as a game is. But the technology presented limits what tools the director has to work with and good directors always find ways to hide the limitations of the time and maximize on what the technology is able to present, a huge part of that is learning from past mistakes. Every essential feature we just take for granted in games now like save states for games only started with the invention of memory batteries in cartridges once games became too long for gamers to play through in 1 sitting, then people learning that "geez gamers like the ability to save and load games, and our console has no built in memory capacity what so ever so we need to incorporate it on the cartridge as a work around", and slow evolutions of save states and save files derived from that and the associated technology as it advanced.
You have to understand that games technology has advanced ridiculous margins with the development of technology since the 70s, and there's absolutely no shame in admitting that a game is flawed in technical aspects, hell there's a reason why so many people still play, collect, watch, and compete on the NES or Genesis. But all directors / game makers want more tools and better technology to present their master piece, whether or not that technology is misused depends entirely on if you learn from the past mistakes.
On March 23 2012 09:49 Airwaffle wrote: Yeah, that's the spirit! I think the best thing would be to ask someone well known and well liked on the forums to start it. Maybe even somebody that knows korean and can communicate what we're trying to do to OGN/KESPA. Somebody we can trust. And then we'll try to get everybody talking about it, like if Sayle mentions it on his stream and stuff.
I guess the hardest thing would be to decide on how much money we would try to collect. Maybe kickstarter isn't really the best option, but I feel it has such a nice money meter, being able to see how much it's currently at and all. Makes you really feel how every contribution count. I think that's kinda important. Just to collect money via Paypal or something, I think might scare many of the potential small contributors away.
I'd really like something like this to happen.
Just showing up at KeSPA HQ with a wad of cash probably won't do - as smaller as it became, korean BW is still at corporate level. A proper way of doing this would be to offer to buy the foreign broadcast rights, set up a subscription system to at least fund an english caster and grow from there. However I guess IEG already has the rights, anything like that would benefit them rather than the league until the contract is up.
Also i think the sponsoring isn't rly gonna work out... It's not gonna be an attractive sponsor to them, they'd rather have a big company name I guess and on top of that i don't think there's any way the few bw fans here could come up with an amount that comes even close to the amount needed...
Sry for being negative but imo it's just not a very realistic plan
On March 23 2012 05:11 ImbaTosS wrote: I hate to ask- who is Park Wan Kyu..? I'm sure I love the dude, since he loves BW.
He's a singer who's a big fan of BW (and Bisu). He's attended a lot of matches and performed in the Jin Air OSL and at YellOw's retirement ceremony. + Show Spoiler +
Ooooh, that's where Bisu's Lonely Night song comes from. Awesome
With the retirement of Hiya, there will be a wildcard up for grabs in the prelims, just like when Hogil retired. We all know what happened to the guy who won THAT wildcard.
On March 26 2012 17:14 Ryo wrote: With the retirement of Hiya, there will be a wildcard up for grabs in the prelims, just like when Hogil retired. We all know what happened to the guy who won THAT wildcard.
On March 26 2012 17:14 Ryo wrote: With the retirement of Hiya, there will be a wildcard up for grabs in the prelims, just like when Hogil retired. We all know what happened to the guy who won THAT wildcard.
Oh great point ! Another fun fact to hype this OSL !
I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
I hope as many stars as possible qualify so we'll have the most stacked OSL of all time.
But not sure if T1 players will have a lot of preparation time though. With finals looming and especially knowing how intolerant T1 is with individual leagues preparation . Moreover Bisu might be required to prepare for 2 maps. Bisu and Best might be under prepared compared to their opponents
Interesting that their doing the prelims for 2 days. As far as I can remember, didnt they just do it all, even the wildcards if there was one, in one day?
On March 26 2012 18:56 iLoveKT wrote: Interesting that their doing the prelims for 2 days. As far as I can remember, didnt they just do it all, even the wildcards if there was one, in one day?
Yes. I guess because this time it's on a weekend they may have other shows lined up? Anyway, we'll know once they release the brackets to the media outlets.
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
Ok, lets shake hands for a Flash-Bisu Final and enjoy whatever happens)
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
Ok, lets shake hands for a Flash-Bisu Final and enjoy whatever happens)
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
Ok, lets shake hands for a Flash-Bisu Final and enjoy whatever happens)
Jaedong v Flash final would be good ......
Meh, Jaedong v Bisu will be good as well and there are several other finals that can sound really good, but Flash-Bisu will be epic proportions:-)))))
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
Ok, lets shake hands for a Flash-Bisu Final and enjoy whatever happens)
Jaedong v Flash final would be good ......
Meh, Jaedong v Bisu will be good as well and there are several other finals that can sound really good, but Flash-Bisu will be epic proportions:-)))))
Bisu can't pvt to save his life at least Jaedong is good vs Terran like Flash.
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
Ok, lets shake hands for a Flash-Bisu Final and enjoy whatever happens)
Jaedong v Flash final would be good ......
Meh, Jaedong v Bisu will be good as well and there are several other finals that can sound really good, but Flash-Bisu will be epic proportions:-)))))
Bisu can't pvt to save his life at least Jaedong is good vs Terran like Flash.
Oh cmon, at least he didn't have a LolFailMine moment like a certain Protoss.
On March 26 2012 17:45 M2 wrote: I am KT/Flash fan since the beginning of the competative broodwar, but if this is the last OSL I sincerely hope Bisu can take it, so Protoss race also (or almost) accquire its indisputable leader who have won everything(or almost). Broodwar needs its icons to stay in the history as the greatest (or one of the greatest) games for all time)
I am a SKT fan since the beginning, and huge Bisu fan, and I wouldn't mind to see Flash winning a 4th OSL because while he's indisputably the best player in BW history, he's still tied to Nada in terms of Starleagues won.
Waaaaah, that reminds me of that Israeli teacher who sent love messages to Iranians on Facebook LOL
Ok, lets shake hands for a Flash-Bisu Final and enjoy whatever happens)
Jaedong v Flash final would be good ......
Meh, Jaedong v Bisu will be good as well and there are several other finals that can sound really good, but Flash-Bisu will be epic proportions:-)))))
Bisu can't pvt to save his life at least Jaedong is good vs Terran like Flash.
Oh cmon, at least he didn't have a LolFailMine moment like a certain Protoss.
Still not as horrible when losing to players like hOn_sin just look at how sloppy bisu get's when he was busting the nat from the lock down . I was totally rolling on the floor laughing at the 1a2a3a bisu tried to do and the goons just died to siege tank fire while they shot the ebay .
Jangbi is going to defend his title this year, only to lose it to Stork in next OSL. Don't ask me if Stork will be able to defend his title, because i don't know.
Are these prelims going to be similar to the last one which technically weren't broadcasted games but they still casted some games? Like having cameras in the PC Room? Or are we not going to be able to wacth these at all??
On March 27 2012 08:43 rslee wrote: Are these prelims going to be similar to the last one which technically weren't broadcasted games but they still casted some games? Like having cameras in the PC Room? Or are we not going to be able to wacth these at all??
its always like that since a lot of games are played at the same time,otherwise it would take A LOT of time just for the Pro-Am preliminaries, they show a lot of games, most of them being the finals of each group/attractive games ^^
On March 27 2012 08:43 rslee wrote: Are these prelims going to be similar to the last one which technically weren't broadcasted games but they still casted some games? Like having cameras in the PC Room? Or are we not going to be able to wacth these at all??
its always like that since a lot of games are played at the same time,otherwise it would take A LOT of time just for the Pro-Am preliminaries, they show a lot of games, most of them being the finals of each group/attractive games ^^
On March 27 2012 08:43 rslee wrote: Are these prelims going to be similar to the last one which technically weren't broadcasted games but they still casted some games? Like having cameras in the PC Room? Or are we not going to be able to wacth these at all??
its always like that since a lot of games are played at the same time,otherwise it would take A LOT of time just for the Pro-Am preliminaries, they show a lot of games, most of them being the finals of each group/attractive games ^^
How many players will play in this OSL and what kind of Round will be the 31 of March? Ro128? Where are players and brackets or i'm wrong with something?
On March 27 2012 18:28 Modesty00 wrote: How many players will play in this OSL and what kind of Round will be the 31 of March? Ro128? Where are players and brackets or i'm wrong with something?
"New Beginning Not the End" Dual Tournament, where 12 from the qualifiers meet 12 from the players who advanced in previous OSL, will occur on April 14th. Not sure anyone had mentioned an actual date..
yes yes yes!!! Looking forward to Jangbi and Horang2 to make some top level epic entertainment :D BW forever in my heart! This will not be the last year of broodwar!
On March 27 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote: Sooooo, any speculation on why Ace isn't participating? Is this the first time that a team has decided not to participate in OSL?
edit: nvm, saw it in the Qualifier Group thread.
What was the reason?!
And will anybody be streaming the qualifiers on TL?
On March 27 2012 19:26 eviltomahawk wrote: Sooooo, any speculation on why Ace isn't participating? Is this the first time that a team has decided not to participate in OSL?
edit: nvm, saw it in the Qualifier Group thread.
What was the reason?!
And will anybody be streaming the qualifiers on TL?
EPT![[image loading]](http://cwcontent.asiae.co.kr/amgimagelink/0/2012032114301964953_1.jpg)
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