Everybody should play a little SC2 - Page 16

On January 30 2012 05:42 fabiano wrote:
I highly doubt you would just be quiet about it. When you see something great being replaced for something less than acceptable the common reaction is to complain.

There's no way to tell for sure what would be your reaction until the event actually happens, though.

On January 30 2012 06:06 ClutchSC wrote:


The point you make is a somewhat fair one; however I have to disagree with the point you make about competitive video games. First of all, if you give a shit about competitive BW, you should support competitive eSports. The only way your beloved BW will grow is by tapping into the massive fanbase which has sprung up around SC2. I would disagree with your statement that SC2 isn't a good game, but that is subjective. However, you follow up your subjective statement, with a ridiculous one; saying that games that aren't BW lower the opinion of competitive video games is totally unfounded and ridiculous. All this opinion does is create a vision of elitist BW players which will prevent SC2 fans from taking part in the BW community and watching replays. And if you are looking at this objectively, the BW community has much more growth to experience from working alongside the SC2 community than vice-versa.

So all I ask, is that BW players follow the OP's example, and drop the fucking elitist attitude, because yes, I'm going to drop the cliche. BW Elitists are killing eSports.

On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.

ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is growing up to be just like your hero.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being a rock star.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say.
+ Show Spoiler +

Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer. The unprecedented level of cultural penetration achieved in Korea compared to anywhere else on the planet is the closest you'll get, realistically, and what you should wish ESPORTS to mean in the West as well. After all, some things are ESPORTS, and some things are just "competitive gaming."

On January 30 2012 06:37 ffreakk wrote:


I don't s'pose you expect people to reply "Your wish is my command"?

We didn't waltz into your SC2 section and sh*t all over it, so you ll be hard-pressed to find justifications for your coming here with words like "What the fuck is your problem?" or "Grow the fuck up!". We (not all, but a good number) don't share your "eSport" ideal, and also happen to think that your favourite game is trash. We were also decent enough to only discuss that in our own secluded area where you people usually don't frequent. We also don't appreciate you people waltzing in here, insulting us, then have the balls to think that they can tell us what we should think or do.

On January 30 2012 05:54 ClutchSC wrote:


Your argument is completely invalid. First of all, the proposed WC4 scene would not replace the fans from SC2, simply add to the number of individuals in the eSports community which would only be a good thing. Also, if we were to put this to scale, your theoretical WC4 would have to have a fanbase of probably over 20 million people, an arbitrary number, but if we scale the numbers, that isn't a ridiculous number. This would mean that there would be a definitive option for televised eSports, which would be fucking awesome. Which would mean there would be space for SC2 on television as well, even if not as large relative to your proposed WC4.

So if you ask how I would feel, it would be a little bit like heaven.

Second of all, the comparison of BW to SC2 is much different than comparing SC2 to a potential WC4; while they are both eSports, they would be completely different games, whereas BW and SC2 share many aspects.

On January 30 2012 06:06 ClutchSC wrote:


The point you make is a somewhat fair one; however I have to disagree with the point you make about competitive video games. First of all, if you give a shit about competitive BW, you should support competitive eSports. The only way your beloved BW will grow is by tapping into the massive fanbase which has sprung up around SC2. I would disagree with your statement that SC2 isn't a good game, but that is subjective. However, you follow up your subjective statement, with a ridiculous one; saying that games that aren't BW lower the opinion of competitive video games is totally unfounded and ridiculous. All this opinion does is create a vision of elitist BW players which will prevent SC2 fans from taking part in the BW community and watching replays. And if you are looking at this objectively, the BW community has much more growth to experience from working alongside the SC2 community than vice-versa.

So all I ask, is that BW players follow the OP's example, and drop the fucking elitist attitude, because yes, I'm going to drop the cliche. BW Elitists are killing eSports.

On January 30 2012 06:08 ClutchSC wrote:


This is exactly the type of BW community member that I wish the entire community would follow the example of.

I don't think that you realize how many people actually follow both scenes and feel offended the comments you mentioned. If you think SC2 is thrash, that's ok, it's your opinion, but there's no need to act like you are part of a hermetically closed-off community, because you aren't.

On January 30 2012 06:37 ffreakk wrote:


I don't s'pose you expect people to reply "Your wish is my command"?

We didn't waltz into your SC2 section and sh*t all over it, so you ll be hard-pressed to find justifications for your coming here with words like "What the fuck is your problem?" or "Grow the fuck up!". We (not all, but a good number) don't share your "eSport" ideal, and also happen to think that your favourite game is trash. We were also decent enough to only discuss that in our own secluded area where you people usually don't frequent. We also don't appreciate you people waltzing in here, insulting us, then have the balls to think that they can tell us what we should think or do.

On January 30 2012 06:37 ffreakk wrote:


I don't s'pose you expect people to reply "Your wish is my command"?

We didn't waltz into your SC2 section and sh*t all over it, so you ll be hard-pressed to find justifications for your coming here with words like "What the fuck is your problem?" or "Grow the fuck up!". We (not all, but a good number) don't share your "eSport" ideal, and also happen to think that your favourite game is trash. We were also decent enough to only discuss that in our own secluded area where you people usually don't frequent. We also don't appreciate you people waltzing in here, insulting us, then have the balls to think that they can tell us what we should think or do.

On January 30 2012 07:29 cursor wrote:
So true about "Getting wins off of people like White-Ra and Strelok, which would have never happened in SC1"

I don't see how they stand it. I saw White-Ra lose to a top 8 masters player on his stream, who did a very simple 1 base Terran push. Why? Because like the OP said, there is no way to be 100% safe in SC2 at any given time, from everything. I don't see how these old BW pros put up with the inconsistency of SC2.

Given that, yes, after playing sc2 I'm WAY better at SC1... faster and I use my hotkeys better. I would guess mainly because SC2 is a safer learning environment, you get to the "meta game" and 3-4 base wars much easier and, if you play more because it's easier, you improve faster. BW is punishing as hell for anyone who gets on ICCup for the first time for about 3 months.

Good OP

On January 30 2012 07:29 cursor wrote:
So true about "Getting wins off of people like White-Ra and Strelok, which would have never happened in SC1"

I don't see how they stand it. I saw White-Ra lose to a top 8 masters player on his stream, who did a very simple 1 base Terran push. Why? Because like the OP said, there is no way to be 100% safe in SC2 at any given time, from everything. I don't see how these old BW pros put up with the inconsistency of SC2.

On January 30 2012 07:35 mrafaeldie12 wrote:


Yes because every pro gamer plays ladder games how they play in tournaments....

Didn't Flash and Jaedong both lose to ForGG at an MSL or osl or something silly like that?

On January 30 2012 07:35 mrafaeldie12 wrote:


Yes because every pro gamer plays ladder games how they play in tournaments....

Didn't Flash and Jaedong both lose to ForGG at an MSL or osl or something silly like that?

On January 30 2012 06:52 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:

Conversely, "the only way your beloved SC2 will grow" is by cannibalizing the massive infrastructure that has sprung up around BW. You want our godlike players to transfer over in the hopes that they'll make your game more watchable. You want our central organization so that your scene can finally be more professional. You want our sponsors so that your players can earn salaries and have better facilities. You want our channel to pick up SC2 so that it'll be more accessible and legitimate. You want our fangirls so that you can dispel the cultural perception of two nerds having a sissyfight with a mouse and keyboard.

I can see how you could make the mistake that "competitive gaming" is a unifying cause that we should all get behind and support. Look, most of us here are not members of the Church of ESPORTS. We grew up around a game that already made it and set the bar, and we followed it because of its own merits and players and storylines. We didn't sign up to be venture capitalists trying to bring up every other fledgling scene just so that they could reach the same pinnacle. We don't really care if the Korean BW scene grows. We just want it to stop contracting at this point. Moreover, while growth might be nice for the foreigner scene, we've always been content with its subordinate relationship with Korea. Asking us to proselytize so that other games we're not completely interested in can reach the same success is a little bit much.

Lastly, I made this post a long time ago and I still stand behind it:

On January 30 2012 07:54 fabiano wrote:


All I want is to SC2 to be as good as BW so that I can enjoy the game with my friends who don't play BW. It seems like you guys think I want the worst to SC2, when I actually want it to be a better game, but the decisions Mr. Browder and co. are taking make me mad.

I do prefer BW infinite times over SC2, but I wholeheartely want SC2 to become a better game. I want us all together enjoy the scenes, but SC2 not only is going the wrong way, but its slowly taking BW out of the scene, and that is what makes me mad the most.

You know what, link me the most awesome SC2 games (please, no paid VODs :/) you think there has been played!

On January 27 2012 19:02 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Well the thing is, nearly all BW players have tried SC2 to a certain extent. Not many SC2 players have even seen BW.

It's easier to predict what an opponent is doing in BW simply because of things like larvae inject, mules and chrono boost in sc2. In BW you can predict aproximately what your opponents economy and production rate is going to be based on how many bases he is on. So even if you don't scout what buildings he has and such you can still cut more corners than you would be able to in sc2.

Less focus on mechanics = more focus on unit control and tactics