EPTEverybody should play a little SC2 - Page 15
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On January 30 2012 04:53 ClutchSC wrote: Second of all, I have to address a large majority of the BW community at large. What the fuck is your problem? Yes, BW has a higher skill cap as a game so far. Yes, the rivalries and games are more defined and can be extremely epic. And yes, the user interface of SC2 is very forgiving. But why, oh why do you have to shit all over SC2 constantly. We're all working towards developing eSports, but whenever I peruse through the BW section, all I see is hating on the SC2 scene; this just shouldn't happen. All that this achieves is the total alienation of a massive fanbase that BW players should be trying to appeal to. This is my request to a vast majority of the BW community; GROW THE FUCK UP. Grow up, so we can make eSports even bigger; SC2 has become the flagship of eSports and as much as you don't want to accept that, you have to. Once the BW community does accept that, we can all move forwards. Who knows, if the SC2 community gets into BW enough, there could even be MLG events that include it but this can only take once the BW community learns to drop the elitist attitude. I can only speak for myself, but I suspect many BW fans feel the same way: We don't give a shit about 'eSports'. We give a shit about competitive Brood War. 'X is hurting ESPORTS' started off as a joke, but I think some of you actually believe this. You actually believe that I'm supposed to support competitive SC2, LoL, Halo, and CoD just because they're video games and therefore 'esports'. You might say "but a lot of people don't take competitive video games seriously, so that's why we all need to band together!", and that would make sense...IF SC2 WAS A GOOD GAME, which it isn't. Games like that only serve to lower the opinion of competitive video games as a whole. So there's the whole cult saying if you say that a game is terrible it's 'hurting eSports' and is taboo. I'm sorry, but I didn't purchase a ticket on this cruise, and if SC2 is really the 'flagship' at the moment then I'd watch out for icebergs and make sure you have enough lifeboats ready on the S.S.ESPORTS. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On January 30 2012 04:53 ClutchSC wrote: First of all, nice job on the OP, I think you highlight some really neat aspects of why a fresh game like SC2 is appealing, and how high level mechanics can allow for playing to the mental aspect of SC2 right from the start, as opposed to the problem of being unable to constantly make SCVs or to do, what BW players would consider to be very simple, menial tasks. Second of all, I have to address a large majority of the BW community at large. What the fuck is your problem? Yes, BW has a higher skill cap as a game so far. Yes, the rivalries and games are more defined and can be extremely epic. And yes, the user interface of SC2 is very forgiving. But why, oh why do you have to shit all over SC2 constantly. We're all working towards developing eSports, but whenever I peruse through the BW section, all I see is hating on the SC2 scene; this just shouldn't happen. All that this achieves is the total alienation of a massive fanbase that BW players should be trying to appeal to. This is my request to a vast majority of the BW community; GROW THE FUCK UP. Grow up, so we can make eSports even bigger; SC2 has become the flagship of eSports and as much as you don't want to accept that, you have to. Once the BW community does accept that, we can all move forwards. Who knows, if the SC2 community gets into BW enough, there could even be MLG events that include it but this can only take once the BW community learns to drop the elitist attitude. Let them be mad, man. Its understandable why they are and they usually keep it to the BW forums anyway. BW is a better refined game with a higher skill ceiling, Ive finally gotten rid of my denial and accepted that after watching a couple Flash vs Jaedong games recently while comparing them to SC2 ZvTs like MVP vs Nestea. Seeing a game like BW slowly getting overshadowed by the young upstart SC2 must suck ass. I like SC2 and will stick to playing and watching SC2 over BW, but I have to admit that itll be sad if Korea fully switches off of BW | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:28 Hinanawi wrote: I can only speak for myself, but I suspect many BW fans feel the same way: We don't give a shit about 'eSports'. We give a shit about competitive Brood War. 'X is hurting ESPORTS' started off as a joke, but I think some of you actually believe this. You actually believe that I'm supposed to support competitive SC2, LoL, Halo, and CoD just because they're video games and therefore 'esports'. You might say "but a lot of people don't take competitive video games seriously, so that's why we all need to band together!", and that would make sense...IF SC2 WAS A GOOD GAME, which it isn't. Games like that only serve to lower the opinion of competitive video games as a whole. So there's the whole cult saying if you say that a game is terrible it's 'hurting eSports' and is taboo. I'm sorry, but I didn't purchase a ticket on this cruise, and if SC2 is really the 'flagship' at the moment then I'd watch out for icebergs and make sure you have enough lifeboats ready on the S.S.ESPORTS. Thx, Hina, couldn't have it expressed better. And so, there goes my 1000th. | ||
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KenNage
Chile885 Posts
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Hundisilm
Estonia99 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:14 fabiano wrote: Imagine WC4 was released and everybody you knew switched over to the newer game. Imagine the forum you used to so lovely participate in was flooded by newcomers saying that MVP and all other top SC2 players should switch to WC4 because SC2 is an old game and is not user friendly and is too hard to play. Imagine all the SC2 foreign tournaments disappearing into thin air. Now the only pro game tournament is GSL, and Gom still has not released any date when the next one will happen, not even guarantees there will be one after the last. Imagine Day[9] daylies on SC2 were gone, now he's doing WC4 daylies. Imagine TL now has changed its focus to WC4, and although they still keep good work with SC2, the vast majority of the users only talk about WC4. From TSL 42 on, now no more SC2, but WC4. Imagine that out of all SC2 teams, half of them disbanded, some focusing on WC4. And worst of all, imagine that WC4 is so much worse than SC2 in almost every single aspect from your point of view, after playing it and not enjoying almost anything in it. How would you feel? Sad probably, but I don't think most people would go about it by writing crap about WC4 every chance they get. As the latter part is the problem, then I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here? I can understand the switching topics being quite out of place for the BW community and how it can make you have negative feelings towards SC2 - a group of TL's BW-fans have literally made me feel a bit nauses about considering playing BW a bit, which is quite sad in my opinion (considered it at one point, but by now I honestly just don't want to for non-game related reasons). | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
There's no way to tell for sure what would be your reaction until the event actually happens, though. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
On January 30 2012 04:53 ClutchSC wrote: Second of all, I have to address a large majority of the BW community at large. What the fuck is your problem? It's honestly Dustin Browder and his team. Looking at the shit they did to the mutalisk, helion "micro" compared to vulture patrol micro, the "super thor", how bad psionic storm is, the new ultralisk, the new spell casters in general, anti micro spells like FF and fungal (though I don't have that much problem with FF it still can be a lot better), siege tanks that barely do anything compared to BW tanks, colossus "micro". Everything just screams tame and boring and I think it's a bad game, just like how dora the explorer: adventure through rainbowland is a bad game*. Do you want to know why we're actually bitter? Cause we wait 12 fucking years, almost a year full of leaks during alpha, and we're the most fucking excited people ever. You think the current sc2 fans are excited? It can't even compare. The BW fans were the first ones dying to get their hands on beta keys and lined up outside stores on launch day to get the game and then some of us found the game to be crap and were completely heart broken. 12 years to churn out crap, and yeah, it sucks cause we were let down so hard after having such high expectations. I still wish sc2 is a good game or hope it will turn into a good game but looking at the new ideas coming out it's obviously not going to be that way. Anyways, you shouldn't be so offended, casual oriented games like LoL and SC2 are on the rise and popular, so just go with it if you think it's a great game (and a lot of people agree with you). No one's a bad person, just a difference of opinion. It's not like if I met a sc2 fan I'd sock him in the face or anything, I just don't like the game he likes cause I happen to think it's crap, just like I think katy perry is crap but there are millions of people that I'm sure are intelligent and funny and good looking that disagree with me. As for why BW fans trash it, it's mostly because of what we think to be factually true. If a sc2 fan says marine splitting vs. banelings is just as hard as splitting against lurkers (when medics and marines are in different control groups and what now) or that helion micro is just as hard or fun as vulture micro of course we're going to say they're completely wrong, especially when the person saying it probably has never played bw in his entire life. It'd be like if I told you the League of Legends client is a masterpiece of art, you'd look at me like I'm stupid and after you list out all the things wrong with it and tell me it looks like something a second year college student made, I just say well I like Riot's aesthetic values and you're just jealous of LoL's stream numbers. LoL has merits, obviously, the client is not one of them. SC2 has merits, like graphics and UI, but unit balance and control when compared to BW are not among them. *I should qualify that, it's a bad game compared to SC:BW, fairly solid RTS game in general. Kinda like how a bunch of C&C or warhammer games are fairly solid RTS games. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19391 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:36 KenNage wrote: i feel the same way Hinanawi does, i dont give a crap about esports, i only care about bw I am a die hard sc:bw fan, but I actually do want eSports to succeed. And it's not so bw is played forever. I honestly hope SC2's end result can turn into the epic game BW made SC vanilla. I love watching competitive video games because it's such an intense mentality that so many people are missing out on by not watching the pros play. I want to go to MLG and be in love with the side events because the competitiveness of the game has escalated in the other genres too. There is such a future for competitive gaming and it would be awesome to see it grow into fruition. And on a personal note, if bw doesn't last for the next decade I really hope SC2 evolves into the game I know it can be. When I watched DRG vs MMA finals I actually was cheering like I do for BW. I'm following the SC2 scene now because I want to be personal with the players by the time the game does succeed and I know it will. Nothing will hurt eSports. Just love the game. Love others who love their game. And encourage each other to continue the love for the game they are interested in. We are all brothers of a great community and united we can bring this to the rest of the world. | ||
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ClutchSC
Canada34 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:14 fabiano wrote: Imagine WC4 was released and everybody you knew switched over to the newer game. Imagine the forum you used to so lovely participate in was flooded by newcomers saying that MVP and all other top SC2 players should switch to WC4 because SC2 is an old game and is not user friendly and is too hard to play. Imagine all the SC2 foreign tournaments disappearing into thin air. Now the only pro game tournament is GSL, and Gom still has not released any date when the next one will happen, not even guarantees there will be one after the last. Imagine Day[9] daylies on SC2 were gone, now he's doing WC4 daylies. Imagine TL now has changed its focus to WC4, and although they still keep good work with SC2, the vast majority of the users only talk about WC4. From TSL 42 on, now no more SC2, but WC4. Imagine that out of all SC2 teams, half of them disbanded, some focusing on WC4. And worst of all, imagine that WC4 is so much worse than SC2 in almost every single aspect from your point of view, after playing it and not enjoying almost anything in it. How would you feel? Your argument is completely invalid. First of all, the proposed WC4 scene would not replace the fans from SC2, simply add to the number of individuals in the eSports community which would only be a good thing. Also, if we were to put this to scale, your theoretical WC4 would have to have a fanbase of probably over 20 million people, an arbitrary number, but if we scale the numbers, that isn't a ridiculous number. This would mean that there would be a definitive option for televised eSports, which would be fucking awesome. Which would mean there would be space for SC2 on television as well, even if not as large relative to your proposed WC4. So if you ask how I would feel, it would be a little bit like heaven. Second of all, the comparison of BW to SC2 is much different than comparing SC2 to a potential WC4; while they are both eSports, they would be completely different games, whereas BW and SC2 share many aspects. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:14 fabiano wrote: Imagine WC4 was released and everybody you knew switched over to the newer game. Imagine the forum you used to so lovely participate in was flooded by newcomers saying that MVP and all other top SC2 players should switch to WC4 because SC2 is an old game and is not user friendly and is too hard to play. Imagine all the SC2 foreign tournaments disappearing into thin air. Now the only pro game tournament is GSL, and Gom still has not released any date when the next one will happen, not even guarantees there will be one after the last. Imagine Day[9] daylies on SC2 were gone, now he's doing WC4 daylies. Imagine TL now has changed its focus to WC4, and although they still keep good work with SC2, the vast majority of the users only talk about WC4. From TSL 42 on, now no more SC2, but WC4. Imagine that out of all SC2 teams, half of them disbanded, some focusing on WC4. And worst of all, imagine that WC4 is so much worse than SC2 in almost every single aspect from your point of view, after playing it and not enjoying almost anything in it. How would you feel? I don't think this is even possible for the guy to imagine. Some things only become visible once they hit you square in the face.  And look at all those "hurting eSport", "flagship of eSport".. youch >.< Oh, and nicely said, Hinanawi <3 | ||
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ClutchSC
Canada34 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:28 Hinanawi wrote: I can only speak for myself, but I suspect many BW fans feel the same way: We don't give a shit about 'eSports'. We give a shit about competitive Brood War. 'X is hurting ESPORTS' started off as a joke, but I think some of you actually believe this. You actually believe that I'm supposed to support competitive SC2, LoL, Halo, and CoD just because they're video games and therefore 'esports'. You might say "but a lot of people don't take competitive video games seriously, so that's why we all need to band together!", and that would make sense...IF SC2 WAS A GOOD GAME, which it isn't. Games like that only serve to lower the opinion of competitive video games as a whole. So there's the whole cult saying if you say that a game is terrible it's 'hurting eSports' and is taboo. I'm sorry, but I didn't purchase a ticket on this cruise, and if SC2 is really the 'flagship' at the moment then I'd watch out for icebergs and make sure you have enough lifeboats ready on the S.S.ESPORTS. The point you make is a somewhat fair one; however I have to disagree with the point you make about competitive video games. First of all, if you give a shit about competitive BW, you should support competitive eSports. The only way your beloved BW will grow is by tapping into the massive fanbase which has sprung up around SC2. I would disagree with your statement that SC2 isn't a good game, but that is subjective. However, you follow up your subjective statement, with a ridiculous one; saying that games that aren't BW lower the opinion of competitive video games is totally unfounded and ridiculous. All this opinion does is create a vision of elitist BW players which will prevent SC2 fans from taking part in the BW community and watching replays. And if you are looking at this objectively, the BW community has much more growth to experience from working alongside the SC2 community than vice-versa. So all I ask, is that BW players follow the OP's example, and drop the fucking elitist attitude, because yes, I'm going to drop the cliche. BW Elitists are killing eSports. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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ClutchSC
Canada34 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:48 BisuDagger wrote: I am a die hard sc:bw fan, but I actually do want eSports to succeed. And it's not so bw is played forever. I honestly hope SC2's end result can turn into the epic game BW made SC vanilla. I love watching competitive video games because it's such an intense mentality that so many people are missing out on by not watching the pros play. I want to go to MLG and be in love with the side events because the competitiveness of the game has escalated in the other genres too. There is such a future for competitive gaming and it would be awesome to see it grow into fruition. And on a personal note, if bw doesn't last for the next decade I really hope SC2 evolves into the game I know it can be. When I watched DRG vs MMA finals I actually was cheering like I do for BW. I'm following the SC2 scene now because I want to be personal with the players by the time the game does succeed and I know it will. Nothing will hurt eSports. Just love the game. Love others who love their game. And encourage each other to continue the love for the game they are interested in. We are all brothers of a great community and united we can bring this to the rest of the world. This is exactly the type of BW community member that I wish the entire community would follow the example of. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:06 ClutchSC wrote: The point you make is a somewhat fair one; however I have to disagree with the point you make about competitive video games. First of all, if you give a shit about competitive BW, you should support competitive eSports. The only way your beloved BW will grow is by tapping into the massive fanbase which has sprung up around SC2. I would disagree with your statement that SC2 isn't a good game, but that is subjective. However, you follow up your subjective statement, with a ridiculous one; saying that games that aren't BW lower the opinion of competitive video games is totally unfounded and ridiculous. All this opinion does is create a vision of elitist BW players which will prevent SC2 fans from taking part in the BW community and watching replays. And if you are looking at this objectively, the BW community has much more growth to experience from working alongside the SC2 community than vice-versa. So all I ask, is that BW players follow the OP's example, and drop the fucking elitist attitude, because yes, I'm going to drop the cliche. BW Elitists are killing eSports. SC2 and Massive Fanbase? I am confused User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:48 BisuDagger wrote: I am a die hard sc:bw fan, but I actually do want eSports to succeed. And it's not so bw is played forever. I honestly hope SC2's end result can turn into the epic game BW made SC vanilla. I love watching competitive video games because it's such an intense mentality that so many people are missing out on by not watching the pros play. I want to go to MLG and be in love with the side events because the competitiveness of the game has escalated in the other genres too. There is such a future for competitive gaming and it would be awesome to see it grow into fruition. And on a personal note, if bw doesn't last for the next decade I really hope SC2 evolves into the game I know it can be. When I watched DRG vs MMA finals I actually was cheering like I do for BW. I'm following the SC2 scene now because I want to be personal with the players by the time the game does succeed and I know it will. Nothing will hurt eSports. Just love the game. Love others who love their game. And encourage each other to continue the love for the game they are interested in. We are all brothers of a great community and united we can bring this to the rest of the world. Would somebody please give this man a medal? | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
Ahh, in the past, everything was better. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
you guys that arent following a scene that is slowly but steadily fading away just dont know how it feels. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:06 ClutchSC wrote: The point you make is a somewhat fair one; however I have to disagree with the point you make about competitive video games. First of all, if you give a shit about competitive BW, you should support competitive eSports. The only way your beloved BW will grow is by tapping into the massive fanbase which has sprung up around SC2. I would disagree with your statement that SC2 isn't a good game, but that is subjective. However, you follow up your subjective statement, with a ridiculous one; saying that games that aren't BW lower the opinion of competitive video games is totally unfounded and ridiculous. All this opinion does is create a vision of elitist BW players which will prevent SC2 fans from taking part in the BW community and watching replays. And if you are looking at this objectively, the BW community has much more growth to experience from working alongside the SC2 community than vice-versa. So all I ask, is that BW players follow the OP's example, and drop the fucking elitist attitude, because yes, I'm going to drop the cliche. BW Elitists are killing eSports. Bolded the important part. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. If it did, then all those CoD4 players would have resulted in a massive surge to the competitive Quake scene. I've accepted BW's eventual death, I see the writing on the walls, I'm not blind. I don't need your sympathy, your "oh you poor dying BW community, if only you'd admit that SC2 is awesome then maybe some of us would grace your pathetic little forum with our presence and maybe you can survive just a bit longer". What you have is the newer game, more fresh blood, more players. What you want, and lack, is validation. Validation from a proven gem of a competitive video game like Brood War. That's why you make these ridiculous posts where you lord your healthier competitive scene over us and say "Come on, just say it. Tell me my game is good, tell me it's a worthy 'ESPORT'. Who are you to deny me this? Don't you know your game is dying? I'll stop calling you an elitist if you just tell me what I want to hear and say that SC2 is the new flagship of competitive video games!" It's not, and from what I've seen of HotS so far, I doubt it ever will be. I'm not a nostalgic elitist who hates things because they're popular. If and when a new competitive RTS as good as BW comes out, I'll be the first one in line to support it. It just saddens me that it won't be Starcraft 2, the game that shares the same name and should have been good enough to take that mantle. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:24 blubbdavid wrote: 2010 was such a nice year. No one back then on TL even knew what "ESPORTS" was, and SC2 players were playing SC2, and BW players were playing BW, and both fanbases were insulting eachother as usual. Then someone made a joke about "hurting ESPORTS", and now, in 2011 we have masses of TL users following the semi-religious concept of "ESPORTS". Ahh, in the past, everything was better. I like WhiteRa's version. "Cybersports" Sounds much cooler imo. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:08 ClutchSC wrote: This is exactly the type of BW community member that I wish the entire community would follow the example of. I don't s'pose you expect people to reply "Your wish is my command"? We didn't waltz into your SC2 section and sh*t all over it, so you ll be hard-pressed to find justifications for your coming here with words like "What the fuck is your problem?" or "Grow the fuck up!". We (not all, but a good number) don't share your "eSport" ideal, and also happen to think that your favourite game is trash. We were also decent enough to only discuss that in our own secluded area where you people usually don't frequent. We also don't appreciate you people waltzing in here, insulting us, then have the balls to think that they can tell us what we should think or do. | ||
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