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Everybody should play a little SC2
An ex-BW and ex-SC2 players perspective.
Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +Inspired by Tasteless's panda-bear-guy commentary on GOM, I picked up BW a year prior to SC2 beta and became a middling C- Terran. I played the first stage of SC2 beta quite heavily on the EU server, amassing almost 3000 games (almost all of it 1v1 ladder as Protoss). I rarely got very far in tournaments, though thanks to somewhat high ladder rank I got to play against many top foreigners before the constant ladder resets made laddering unpleasant(damnit @ http://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/21550/ , was for several months in the top 200 EU). Obviously I was never a contender, but on the other hand I did get the occasional win against people like White-Ra and Strelok (which never could have happened in BW ;-). After the beta ended, I decided that I didn't want to continue playing SC2, and went back to casually playing BW. Nowadays I'm busy with other pursuits and don't play either game, although I catch the occasional game of Proleague.
This is a BW response to the complementary thread in the SC2 forum. From my brief SC2 venture, I think there's some value in BW players trying out SC2 if you haven't already. With BW mechanics, you can get right into the best parts of SC2: mindgames and army control. I don't mean to say that playing SC2 is like playing a micro map or some other subset of BW. Rather the comparatively smaller scale of SC2 allows you to focus more immediately on these aspects, which in turn can lead you to have a better appreciation of BW's pace and depth.
Limited Information and Safety
Both SC2 and BW are games of limited information, but there are more times in BW where you don't have to worry about what your opponent is doing because your build is already safe from it. For instance, in BW TvP, if the Terran siege expoes and the Protoss does a 1gate FE with the intention of taking a 3rd, there's a few minutes of equilibrium where the Terran can harass, expand, or make more facs but can't push out on the map because he doesn't have the siege tank count. Similarly, the Protoss will have a very hard time breaking the natural off only 2 bases and can chose to shuttle harass, take a 3rd, or tech up. This leads to complacence where both players know they can't lose in the next few minutes and angle for marginal advantages.
In SC2, you don't have this build safety until relatively later in the game. This forces you to be much more on your feet about what exactly your opponent is doing in case he was really just waiting to get a crucial tech unit to break your natural. But it also means you can fake aggression much easier and force your opponent to consider if your aggression is real or feinted. BW players are already accustomed to showing certain threats and not following through with them to try and trick your opponent into overreacting. This kind of thinking is rewarded perhaps even more in SC2, because there are fewer 'generally safe' strategies and your opponent will be forced to adapt immediately or risk dying.
So, even though BW is unquestionably more mechanically demanding, I found BW to be a bit too relaxing at times. After years of progamer replays and VODS to draw upon I could turn off my brain since I knew mutas weren't going to be at my base until 6:45. In SC2 the longer period of time where your opponent can flat out kill you forces you to constantly seek more information and be on your toes well into the midgame.
Scale
Recently, someone posted a cool full HD sized BW screenshot of the entire map with engagements all over. But when you're playing BW, you can only concentrate on a very small area of the game at a time. Even in a midgame push you're likely to have your army spread across two screens, you need to keep rallying units from another screen, and usually you need to switch to each screen of your base. This means it's very difficult for BW players to visualize the whole picture of what's going on, and this game sense is what ultimately separates good players from great players. Because many individual tasks are difficult to perform, it's hard to prioritize which tasks are the most important.
SC2 allows you to basically fit the entire game on a single screen. The design of the maps, unit collision, and economy lead to a game that is focused on winning a decisive engagement. Managing your macro can be done without switching screens at all; the primary concern is gathering scouting information to get the correct army composition, and then controlling your army effectively. But if you start visualing BW like you do in SC2 (one big screen), your play will greatly improve. It's easy to get caught up in winning all the little battles that you lose the war in BW, and SC2 might help you think more about spreading out your army correctly rather than perfecting your three base macro, because the former is more important in both games.
Positioning
The positioning in SC2, again due to scale, is more based on your unit control rather than map control. SC2 detractors often point to the 'ball' syndrome and lack of BW-esque map control units as evidence that positioning is not as important in SC2. SC2 is more focused on players having all their units grouped, positioned and ready at any time for an attack. In BW TvP, if you're macroing up a 200/200 push, but you wait until right before moving out to start hotkeying and grouping your units, you're vulnerable to having a bunch of rallied units stasis'd and being run over. In SC2 this is even more important; you need to constantly reposition your army because you have much less time than in BW to react to an opponent splitting your army with forcefield or running in with a big ball of stimmed maurauders. If you arn't already positioned correctly before the battle starts, you'll be dead.
Adaptation
This last point mostly applies to BW players who picked up the game in the last couple of years. I think one of the trickiest things about starting BW for the first time in 2009 was that there was a very clear 'right' and 'wrong' way to do things. Even for players who had been playing longer than I have, it's easy in BW to get stuck in a mindset of "Given this position, I've seen the pros do this, now I'm going to replicate it." You're given the conclusion without all the experimentation that leads to it. When starting SC2 (at least this was the case in beta, and I suspect still now as the game is somewhat young) you don't have that advantage and you have to improvise. In BW, often you think that 'if only I was a little faster, or microed this a little better, I could have won', but in my experience the greatest leaps in my BW and SC2 experiences were when I figured out how to exploit a certain strategy, and not because I was able to rally SCVs faster. SC2 is useful because while the base gameplay is quite similar to BW, the rules are not so defined yet. Even though personally I enjoy the infinite challenges (to humans at least) poised by the BW UI, I think a BW player could become more experimental and adventurous after trying SC2.
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Indeed I remember that my APM went up to 130-140ish after I left SC2 back to BW (before SC2 about 90-100ish). I noticed that my multitasking got a bit cleaner, since I manage to view screens and realize everything on it much faster.
But overall BW will always be better then SC2 
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Nice to see that this thread is just as constructive as it's SC2 forum counterpart. Good job.
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I agree with most of the post except the" limited information and safety " part . Nothing is SAFE until you have scouted what the enemy is really doing , that is okay If I think he is going muta , I will keep scouting till I see a Muta with my own eyes. There is no relaxing in broodwar , nope not once I think I was in a safe zone that is playing against D- or D+ player . I am always on my toes getting more info so I can make the correct decision .
Most of my opponent are not really half hearted in their threat more like it's a double trap , he shows you a part of his units and than he keeps half of them some where else and you think you are safe to move out . You get sandwiched ....Here again I want to stress that there is no such thing as a safe zone or safe timing . You can even ask flash if there is such thing where a player can just relax because everything is already figured out and definitely flash will disagree with that kind of thinking . As for me I won't let my guard down , I will always try to verify the thing's that I fear about and find a way to deal with it .
Besides that the only part I like about sc2 is the MBS system , Also Bio play a great part in the terran warmachine in sc2 marine and marauder can be use in the late game in all matchups TvZ,TvP,TvZ . Other than that I kept comparing my units in broodwar and sc2 , I have the hard time thinking about where is my damn vultures and spider mines , Wraiths and especially medic . So yeah I did play a few sc2 in the cybercafe other than that not a lot because my laptop can't support the game .
Oh and the issue of scale we have the F2,F3,F4 hotkeys to save our macro buildings and rally location so it isn't much a issue for a bw player that he can't see the whole screen . Basically by pressing the save screen hot key's we could go back to the location of the base in a matter of seconds . Therefore I don't think I need to visualised the whole screen rather I only need to remember few key locations to focus my sight's on especially my macro area and the mini map which I spend most of my attention on it . Also playing sc2 did not improve my overview of the whole game in broodwar because If I want to know what's going on in the game , I will be collecting more intel about my opponent's movement, their unit and location .
On the issue of positioning I prefer bw unit's as for example in the case of me playing as a Terran , unit's like siege tank and siege mode, gives me a deck of cards to mess around with , and that I mean I can put few siege tanks in the middle of the map and some spider mines to ensure that I know what's coming if a 200/200 protoss army decided to flank me from the middle . Sure the siege tank and friends will not be able to hold for long but they will give me a few precious seconds to pull my tanks and vultures army back in to position and deter him from crushing my open route to my base . I don't see much of this play in sc2 though .
On January 27 2012 17:53 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
I don't get it.
ughh gecko , it's because some one made the same thread in sc2 with the title " Everyone should play a little BW "
Thread link goes here ---------- >http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306513
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Thanks for information. I've never played SC2, but it's nice to see an opinion on both games with pros and cons. So that if I ever try it, I know what to expect.
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Oh man this is an awesome post. Nice job. If every OP was half as good as this TL would be worth $100/year subscription.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
I've played SC2 enough to say you say some very wrong, and contradictory things. Also you seem to assign worth arbitrarily and say things that are flat out not true. Also you start with a statement and then put down 4 random paragraphs with no real structure to them. I'm feeling a whole lot of "meh" right now :/
On January 27 2012 18:06 EatThePath wrote:
Oh man this is an awesome post. Nice job. If every OP was half as good as this TL would be worth $100/year subscription.
really?
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On January 27 2012 18:08 Pholon wrote:
I've played SC2 enough to say you say some very wrong, and contradictory things. Also you seem to assign worth arbitrarily and say things that are flat out not true. Also you start with a statement and then put down 4 random paragraphs with no real structure to them. I'm feeling a whole lot of "meh" right now :/
lol, same reaction. really?
I would love to hear what you think is flat wrong, or arbitrarily positively valued. (seriously)
OP resonates a lot with me, but I am showing support for a good, well-written post from a worthy source, not some words I am happy to hear cause I find them agreeable.
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On January 27 2012 17:53 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
I don't get it.
Get out of my head.
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On January 27 2012 18:19 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 18:08 Pholon wrote:
I've played SC2 enough to say you say some very wrong, and contradictory things. Also you seem to assign worth arbitrarily and say things that are flat out not true. Also you start with a statement and then put down 4 random paragraphs with no real structure to them. I'm feeling a whole lot of "meh" right now :/
lol, same reaction. really? I would love to hear what you think is flat wrong, or arbitrarily positively valued. (seriously) OP resonates a lot with me, but I am showing support for a good, well-written post from a worthy source, not some words I am happy to hear cause I find them agreeable.
It reads a lot like his very own impressions, e.g. him not being under stress or under stress too little. I don't know who or where he played, but BW is a shitload of stress, given that your opponent is somewhat around your level. There are more points like his impressions on micro management and such. Hard to phrase in words, especially since I (still) don't get what he wants me to do with his text. I see no point in like... is that some sort of recruitment, or?
Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand, I'll just deal with it.
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You found BW to be a little bit too relaxing at times? What can I say, personally I found this very eccentric, to say the least. Whenever I played on iccup I was tensed up from the start to the gg. You are truly working every second from start to finish.
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On January 27 2012 18:30 writer22816 wrote:
You found BW to be a little bit too relaxing at times? What can I say, personally I found this very eccentric, to say the least. Whenever I played on iccup I was tensed up from the start to the gg. You are truly working every second from start to finish.
BW is a very mapped out game for certain builds. If I scout 3 hatcheries TvZ, I feel pretty confident of the path the game will take until the 8-9 minute mark if we are of comparable skill. If I keep my scout alive long enough, he can't really ling-allin me without me being ready for it. If I chose to play standard 2-3 barracks into 9 minute push after surviving his muta harass (incoming at 6:45), the game is pretty much known until I start the push. All you have to do is keep your vessel on schedule while defending the muta harass. I can scan in time to prepare for 3h lurkers instead of muta, and there isn't much deviance in the build. The game only becomes more interesting if either player screws up microing (but usually just minor advantages are made) or when we get into the late game after defilers come out, where either I scored an advantage by killing Z's natural/third, or he scored an advantage by repelling the 9 minute push. Personally I always felt very comfortable playing this build because it's simply mechanical, there's very little thinking that you have to do during the build except micro and macro. So correct, I don't feel there's much tension in a situation like that.
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You should play more peruvian zergs...
And personnally, as a D level zerg, Ifeel like I've died to attacks at every timing possible from the moment terran can build marine/toss can build zealot until the lategame, and I haven't played that many games...
No idea how you play midgame tvz too oO
As for sc2, if you don't mind the price, I'd advise to play some games. Not really for your reasons though.
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So if I'm getting this right, basically you're saying that sc2 is as hard to play as bw because you have to play mindgames, and in bw you don't have to?
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On January 27 2012 18:28 Gecko[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 18:19 EatThePath wrote:On January 27 2012 18:08 Pholon wrote:
I've played SC2 enough to say you say some very wrong, and contradictory things. Also you seem to assign worth arbitrarily and say things that are flat out not true. Also you start with a statement and then put down 4 random paragraphs with no real structure to them. I'm feeling a whole lot of "meh" right now :/
lol, same reaction. really? I would love to hear what you think is flat wrong, or arbitrarily positively valued. (seriously) OP resonates a lot with me, but I am showing support for a good, well-written post from a worthy source, not some words I am happy to hear cause I find them agreeable. It reads a lot like his very own impressions, e.g. him not being under stress or under stress too little. I don't know who or where he played, but BW is a shitload of stress, given that your opponent is somewhat around your level. There are more points like his impressions on micro management and such. Hard to phrase in words, especially since I (still) don't get what he wants me to do with his text. I see no point in like... is that some sort of recruitment, or? Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand, I'll just deal with it.
If I could give one answer: It's a lot easier to feel "safe" in BW. By that I mean, you know what you're supposed to do, and it's just up to you to execute. You know that if you lose after "responding correctly", it's not because of a strategic error, you just messed up your control, or got behind on macro, or you got caught by a spider mine. Right now in SC2, it often feels like you are alone with your wits in the wild west because we don't have the signposts of 10 years of pro play metagame development. It might be a false sense of security, but BW often lacks the seat-of-the-pants quality because most of the time you can say "I've seen this before", or at least you tell yourself that.
Also it's just riffing on the other thread in the SC2 forum (which is equally as idiosyncratic).
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On January 27 2012 18:45 Trap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 18:30 writer22816 wrote:
You found BW to be a little bit too relaxing at times? What can I say, personally I found this very eccentric, to say the least. Whenever I played on iccup I was tensed up from the start to the gg. You are truly working every second from start to finish. BW is a very mapped out game for certain builds. If I scout 3 hatcheries TvZ, I feel pretty confident of the path the game will take until the 8-9 minute mark if we are of comparable skill. If I keep my scout alive long enough, he can't really ling-allin me without me being ready for it. If I chose to play standard 2-3 barracks into 9 minute push after surviving his muta harass (incoming at 6:45), the game is pretty much known until I start the push. All you have to do is keep your vessel on schedule while defending the muta harass. I can scan in time to prepare for 3h lurkers instead of muta, and there isn't much deviance in the build. The game only becomes more interesting if either player screws up microing (but usually just minor advantages are made) or when we get into the late game after defilers come out, where either I scored an advantage by killing Z's natural/third, or he scored an advantage by repelling the 9 minute push. Personally I always felt very comfortable playing this build because it's simply mechanical, there's very little thinking that you have to do during the build except micro and macro. So correct, I don't feel there's much tension in a situation like that.
Good zerg player's would have kept you in base before your 9 minute push can even do a single thing in my opinion and by the time you are about to punish the zerg for the lack of lurkers because he went for a 3 hatch build in to muta's he would have lurkers and zerglings waiting to flank your ultimate 9 minute push . I have seen every kind of a crazy stuff zerg's can do destroy my fragile terran bio army and no way am I comfortable with the thought that the zerg's on 3 gas and is about to get defilers . Your opponent's sound really one dimension in their play style, while on the other hand here Zerg's on iccup are not to be mess with . They do not lack in the terms of creativity in fact they are really cunning .
On January 27 2012 18:51 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 18:28 Gecko[Xp] wrote:On January 27 2012 18:19 EatThePath wrote:On January 27 2012 18:08 Pholon wrote:
I've played SC2 enough to say you say some very wrong, and contradictory things. Also you seem to assign worth arbitrarily and say things that are flat out not true. Also you start with a statement and then put down 4 random paragraphs with no real structure to them. I'm feeling a whole lot of "meh" right now :/
lol, same reaction. really? I would love to hear what you think is flat wrong, or arbitrarily positively valued. (seriously) OP resonates a lot with me, but I am showing support for a good, well-written post from a worthy source, not some words I am happy to hear cause I find them agreeable. It reads a lot like his very own impressions, e.g. him not being under stress or under stress too little. I don't know who or where he played, but BW is a shitload of stress, given that your opponent is somewhat around your level. There are more points like his impressions on micro management and such. Hard to phrase in words, especially since I (still) don't get what he wants me to do with his text. I see no point in like... is that some sort of recruitment, or? Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand, I'll just deal with it. If I could give one answer: It's a lot easier to feel "safe" in BW. By that I mean, you know what you're supposed to do, and it's just up to you to execute. You know that if you lose after "responding correctly", it's not because of a strategic error, you just messed up your control, or got behind on macro, or you got caught by a spider mine. Right now in SC2, it often feels like you are alone with your wits in the wild west because we don't have the signposts of 10 years of pro play metagame development. It might be a false sense of security, but BW often lacks the seat-of-the-pants quality because most of the time you can say "I've seen this before", or at least you tell yourself that. Also it's just riffing on the other thread in the SC2 forum.
To be honest , lets get real here you can be a macro bot in broodwar and yet with those armies if you don't have any experience what it can do or how to use it . That macro advantage you have is nothing to a player who is much more superior than you in many ways . Mechanical superiority doesn't equates to strategical prowess . Better strategical players can deal with situations in a much more efficient way than a person who knows nothing but macro.
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Well the thing is, nearly all BW players have tried SC2 to a certain extent. Not many SC2 players have even seen BW.
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its true that, sc2 is revolves around knowing exatcly what your opponent is doing even on lower levels, as zerg its pain in ass because you need to drone approprietly or you are dead. Of course same can happen in bw, but as you said the boundaries of general safety are MUCH larger in bw (im not talking about professional level mind you), also because you can outmicro or outmultitask your opponent to negate some damage, more often you can see "scissors" cut through rock in bw rather than sc2. The things like larger saturation, faster maxing, and general unit counter other unit mechanic is bad for some people and good for other as some people really believe in this version of strategy. I would preffer it to be in the middle rather than build order counter/unit counter based. I would love if SC2 gave more tools to open the boundaries of safety a little, just like zone control/high ground/microability does.
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This last week has basically been making mirror sc2 vs bw threads in both forums....
Be cool, and play both 8)
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EPT
