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On January 29 2012 01:56 Epoch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 23:56 Sawamura wrote:On January 28 2012 23:42 Terrestrialrage wrote:On January 28 2012 13:02 Hinanawi wrote:
I think we've all been there, done that. Brood War is a legend, SC2 is a poorly designed cashgrab unworthy of the name 'Starcraft', supported by zealots with religious fervor for something they call 'ESPORTS' (which apparently is about supporting any competitive game, no matter how bad it is, because it's a video game). This is blatantly angry and has no place in this topic. Being a BW player some years ago, then picking up SC2 shortly after its release, I went back and played BW again a couple of months ago. My APM was higher, my macro was more solid, and my crisis management was smooth. It is so easy to get carried away in this "SC2 sucks, BW for life" and "Friggin hipsters, move to SC2 already" mentality, but the point is that you watch what you enjoy and play what you enjoy. BW pushed my base skills along pretty nicely, and SC2 refined my macro and helped me see the aspects of macro and timing that I never saw in BW. I currently watch both, play both, and theres nothing wrong with that. I watch SC2 during the day when the foreign tournaments are going on, and BW at night when i can watch that. Over all, they correlate strongly with one another and any game-bashing and anger in this thread is completely unnecessary. No one is saying you can't watch both games . If you like sc2 and bw than play both of it, I don't see anyone forcing another individual down his throat in order to convert them to their respective believes . On January 28 2012 23:52 Epoch wrote:On January 28 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On January 28 2012 12:08 MK4512 wrote:On January 28 2012 11:50 whatusername wrote:On January 28 2012 07:35 Epoch wrote:
So much distaste for sc2 here. Both sc2, and sc:bw are great games.
If sc2 is good enough for fucking Nada, Julyzerg, and Slayersboxer then it's good enough for you. It's fine if you don't like it. But none of you are too good for the game. Actually they were kind of washed up by the time they entered SC2 so.............................. Who the fuck cares if they're washed up or not. If they think it has strategic depth, than it fucking has strategic depth. I'm so suprised people turn so quickly. You sound really angry to be honest 
Epoch
So much distaste for sc2 here. Both sc2, and sc:bw are great games.
If sc2 is good enough for fucking Nada, Julyzerg, and Slayersboxer then it's good enough for you. It's fine if you don't like it. But none of you are too good for the game.
Woh what's with the *insert pro names * and them dictating what games should I play as a gamer . I will play what games I want, I wont blindly follow sc2 just because there were my previous heroes in broodwar . I will wish them luck, but don't expect me to enjoy watching sc2 like I do for broodwar. Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? I said it's fine if you don't like it, but that no one here is too good for it. First thing your statement says "If sc2 is good enough for fucking Nada, Julyzerg, and Slayersboxer then it's good enough for you" is already implying that okay if our bw heroes are saying sc2 is good than it must be good for us right ? From a mob perspective and bandwagon mentality of course I will say yes . But from an individual who plays the game for him self , why should I play something I don't enjoy ? It's fine if you don't like it. But none of you are too good for the game.
Second, you manage tell people it's fine you don't like it and in the end we can't because we just suck because we are not boxer caliber or nada so we as a fan don't have the right to choose the game we prefer to watch . Am right ? I don't get it, I don't go around to sc2 forum and keep telling people hey Flash is the best in town and plays broodwar and if you don't like it .Your opinion doesn't matter because your opinions are not worthy because you are not good at the game in the first place. Uh, you don't seem to understand. I'm saying that you aren't too good for it. Which you aren't. If those players are not above it, then none of you are. Period. I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm saying you are not too good for it. So don't act like you are. Do you not understand? lol it's a pretty simple point
Having read all of the above I must say that I have no idea what your "simple point" is. Why are you comparing professionals and people who play casually in the first place? Doesn't it fall on the game to be "good" instead of the player? Seriously, the more I think about this the more my head hurts. Too good for a game... what. Too good at what?
Sigh.
Is this some sort of trick statement?
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TO SC2 Fans:
Just tell us something good about SC2 that isn't already obtainable in BW because I think this thread is what its all about. If SC2 can offer BW fans something/anything better than BW, people might actually try it.
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On January 28 2012 23:59 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 21:15 Hundisilm wrote:On January 28 2012 20:32 hellbound wrote:Can't play what I don't own There should actually be a starter edition (free) for SC2 where you can play custom games on a couple of maps. As the matchmaking system isn't working you'd probably need a Friend or two as well. I'm guessing most people who are happy with their current game probably aren't going to switch another game (either from BW to SC2 or the other way around). Neither is that significantly better than the other to justify a switch, unless one is already inclined to try something new for one reason or another. Might be fun to occasionally relax and mess about though. You sure are assuming a lot. I didn't say I've never played it. I just didn't like it so I didn't buy it. Bought RA3 instead, no regrets. I'm not going to argue that there is not a single thing that is better in SCII than on BW. I don't get people who argue against a better UI or non retarded pathfinding, it is a strategy game not a who can click MOAR game(also irrefutable proof that Bliz does not give a single fuck about esports, they would have patched that shit into BW years ago otherwise), the sad reality is many things are worse. And I really don't have that much time to mess around. Being an adult is shit.
Eerrrrr....
I was just trying to point out that you don't need to own the game to play it - not exactly sure what I was assuming...
The last part wasn't actually being directed at you specifically, but more to the general audience (you know children and stuff )
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What's the next step? Going over to Dota forums and posting "Everyone should play a little LoL"?
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On January 29 2012 04:49 Bleak wrote:
What's the next step? Going over to Dota forums and posting "Everyone should play a little LoL"?
Good idea actually :D
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On January 29 2012 04:49 Bleak wrote:
What's the next step? Going over to Dota forums and posting "Everyone should play a little LoL"?
Dota vs LoL has similarities to BW vs SC2
LoL is less balanced and is dumbed down to appeal to more casual/younger players. SC2 is less balanced and is dumbed down to appeal to more casual players.
LoL also technically has better graphics than dota but dota's are still way better to look at because LoL has stupid, cartoony, graphics. SC2 technically has better graphics than BW but BW still manages to look better to me at least. SC2 is more frequently just balls of clumped units running into each other, in Brood War battles resemble battles.
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I swear there must be so many people who just reflexively defend BW/SC2 for no reason other than it's what they play. SC2 is fine, quit bashing on it I am still in disbelief that there's so many people that are so desperate to paint SC2 in a bad light.
Why would SC2 be anywhere near as high level as BW (In the pro scene or on ladder) when it's been out less than a 1/4 of the time?
Instead of comparing SC2 to BW, in reality we should be comparing it to SC1 because that's the stage of the game we're at in SC2's lifespan.
The points arent amazing in the OP but they aren't necessarily wrong either. There are things you can take from BW to SC2 and vice versa. It's almost hip on TL to take jabs at the "other" starcraft in virtually any situation where it can be somehow worked in, and I for one am sick of it.
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On January 29 2012 06:01 UndoneJin wrote:
I swear there must be so many people who just reflexively defend BW/SC2 for no reason other than it's what they play. SC2 is fine, quit bashing on it I am still in disbelief that there's so many people that are so desperate to paint SC2 in a bad light.
Why would SC2 be anywhere near as high level as BW (In the pro scene or on ladder) when it's been out less than a 1/4 of the time?
Instead of comparing SC2 to BW, in reality we should be comparing it to SC1 because that's the stage of the game we're at in SC2's lifespan.
This is so wrong and the same excuse has been used over and over again.
While it is certainly unfair to compare a mature game to a game in its infancy, you also cannot by any means compare SC vanilla to SC2. If you don't know why, then there is no reason to keep arguing.
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OP posts opinionated, well-meaning advocacy of SC2 as an inspiration for people to branch out and enjoy a fun game.
Gets head chewed off.
gg TL.
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On January 29 2012 06:05 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 06:01 UndoneJin wrote:
I swear there must be so many people who just reflexively defend BW/SC2 for no reason other than it's what they play. SC2 is fine, quit bashing on it I am still in disbelief that there's so many people that are so desperate to paint SC2 in a bad light.
Why would SC2 be anywhere near as high level as BW (In the pro scene or on ladder) when it's been out less than a 1/4 of the time?
Instead of comparing SC2 to BW, in reality we should be comparing it to SC1 because that's the stage of the game we're at in SC2's lifespan.
This is so wrong and the same excuse has been used over and over again. While it is certainly unfair to compare a mature game to a game in its infancy, you also cannot by any means compare SC vanilla to SC2. If you don't know why, then there is no reason to keep arguing.
It's silly to say that you can't/shouldn't compare them, it's a different situation but the fact still remains that we are comparing a fully fleshed out expansion to a game that came out relatively recently. There has to be a middle ground between saying "SC2 isn't as good as BW in our opinion and thus it is worthless" and "BW is outdated and it's time to move on."
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On January 29 2012 06:08 Alacast wrote:
OP posts opinionated, well-meaning advocacy of SC2 as an inspiration for people to branch out and enjoy a fun game.
Gets head chewed off.
gg TL.
Well, it was saying that SC2 improves your BW skill, which is actually true if you're really bad at Brood War and not really true if you're like D+ or better (which is more a function of the SC2 community being way more noob-friendly and not all trying to emulate TLBS).
And then, of course, it turns into a BW vs SC2 thread. but like the "everyone should play BW" version in the SC2 forums.
On January 29 2012 02:47 shaftofpleasure wrote:
TO SC2 Fans:
Just tell us something good about SC2 that isn't already obtainable in BW because I think this thread is what its all about. If SC2 can offer BW fans something/anything better than BW, people might actually try it.
Because SC2 is much less refined that BW, you can design your own builds and have them work pretty well, and that kind of problem-solving is pretty fun for a lot of people. BW doesn't have that, because it's basically solved. If I want to get good at BW, I need to have Liquipedia open on my other screen and just practice it like I'm studying for a test. SC2 lets me dick around a lot more and kind of do my own thing and still be at a Plat-with-some-diamond level. If I tried to experiment on ICCUP, I'd just get crushed because there aren't any "casual" BW fans anymore. It's a very difficult game to get into.
It's also fucking impossible to play BW as a random player because no one wants to play with you. ICCUP is all about improving and being competitive and I just want to play a fun game without hackers 
Also, a lot of people (myself included), don't have admin access to their router, and trying to play BW games when you can't host them is a fucking nightmare. The 20-minute wait and then you get bunker rushed is far and away the biggest reason I don't play BW more.
The second-biggest reason is the ICCUP map pool being Fighting Spirit, Python, Destination, and that one guy who likes Tau Cross, for the last 5 years.
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SC2 people are sooo sensitive 
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On January 29 2012 06:08 UndoneJin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 06:05 fabiano wrote:On January 29 2012 06:01 UndoneJin wrote:
I swear there must be so many people who just reflexively defend BW/SC2 for no reason other than it's what they play. SC2 is fine, quit bashing on it I am still in disbelief that there's so many people that are so desperate to paint SC2 in a bad light.
Why would SC2 be anywhere near as high level as BW (In the pro scene or on ladder) when it's been out less than a 1/4 of the time?
Instead of comparing SC2 to BW, in reality we should be comparing it to SC1 because that's the stage of the game we're at in SC2's lifespan.
This is so wrong and the same excuse has been used over and over again. While it is certainly unfair to compare a mature game to a game in its infancy, you also cannot by any means compare SC vanilla to SC2. If you don't know why, then there is no reason to keep arguing. It's silly to say that you can't/shouldn't compare them, it's a different situation but the fact still remains that we are comparing a fully fleshed out expansion to a game that came out relatively recently. There has to be a middle ground between saying "SC2 isn't as good as BW in our opinion and thus it is worthless" and "BW is outdated and it's time to move on."
I really hate this stupid argument. SCII has all the years blizz have been developing RTS in it since war1. However long that has fucking been. It is not a brand new concept in its infancy. Why do bases have ramped exits into naturals? MBS, smarcast automine have been around forever. Et cetera, et cetera ad nauseam. Comparing them in this light is utterly retarded.
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On January 29 2012 07:32 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 06:08 UndoneJin wrote:On January 29 2012 06:05 fabiano wrote:On January 29 2012 06:01 UndoneJin wrote:
I swear there must be so many people who just reflexively defend BW/SC2 for no reason other than it's what they play. SC2 is fine, quit bashing on it I am still in disbelief that there's so many people that are so desperate to paint SC2 in a bad light.
Why would SC2 be anywhere near as high level as BW (In the pro scene or on ladder) when it's been out less than a 1/4 of the time?
Instead of comparing SC2 to BW, in reality we should be comparing it to SC1 because that's the stage of the game we're at in SC2's lifespan.
This is so wrong and the same excuse has been used over and over again. While it is certainly unfair to compare a mature game to a game in its infancy, you also cannot by any means compare SC vanilla to SC2. If you don't know why, then there is no reason to keep arguing. It's silly to say that you can't/shouldn't compare them, it's a different situation but the fact still remains that we are comparing a fully fleshed out expansion to a game that came out relatively recently. There has to be a middle ground between saying "SC2 isn't as good as BW in our opinion and thus it is worthless" and "BW is outdated and it's time to move on." I really hate this stupid argument. SCII has all the years blizz have been developing RTS in it since war1. However long that has fucking been. It is not a brand new concept in its infancy. Why do bases have ramped exits into naturals? MBS, smarcast automine have been around forever. Et cetera, et cetera ad nauseam. Comparing them in this light is utterly retarded.
SC2 isn't a Blizzard game. Its designers are Command And Conquer vets that got hired by Activision. Not exactly a recipe for long term success. BW was balanced with map design and adaptation by players, and a few tweaks to units. SC2 is getting balanced by Activision coding hard counters, which is the perfect way to make a game totally uninteresting.
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In an attempt to make a productive comment in what is rapidly becoming a cesspool of a thread:
I'm watching In_Dove play SC2 for the first time, and it occurs to me that it'd be hella entertaining to have a day where a bigger name (but likely not pro) SC2 player and one of the top foreign BW players streamed themselves playing each others' games for the first time. And then go back, obviously, but it'd be really fun if we got, like, Puppykiller (who's one of the loader BW-only people) or Project or something playing SC2 and ....um....who's a good SC2 player who never played BW? Maybe one of the WC3 players? I don't think anyone's never played BW. And, anyway, they could rage at the game while playing it and it'd probably be really funny, is where I was going with that.
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On January 29 2012 06:38 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 06:08 Alacast wrote:
OP posts opinionated, well-meaning advocacy of SC2 as an inspiration for people to branch out and enjoy a fun game.
Gets head chewed off.
gg TL. Well, it was saying that SC2 improves your BW skill, which is actually true if you're really bad at Brood War and not really true if you're like D+ or better (which is more a function of the SC2 community being way more noob-friendly and not all trying to emulate TLBS). And then, of course, it turns into a BW vs SC2 thread. but like the "everyone should play BW" version in the SC2 forums. Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 02:47 shaftofpleasure wrote:
TO SC2 Fans:
Just tell us something good about SC2 that isn't already obtainable in BW because I think this thread is what its all about. If SC2 can offer BW fans something/anything better than BW, people might actually try it. Because SC2 is much less refined that BW, you can design your own builds and have them work pretty well, and that kind of problem-solving is pretty fun for a lot of people. BW doesn't have that, because it's basically solved. If I want to get good at BW, I need to have Liquipedia open on my other screen and just practice it like I'm studying for a test. SC2 lets me dick around a lot more and kind of do my own thing and still be at a Plat-with-some-diamond level. If I tried to experiment on ICCUP, I'd just get crushed because there aren't any "casual" BW fans anymore. It's a very difficult game to get into. It's also fucking impossible to play BW as a random player because no one wants to play with you. ICCUP is all about improving and being competitive and I just want to play a fun game without hackers Also, a lot of people (myself included), don't have admin access to their router, and trying to play BW games when you can't host them is a fucking nightmare. The 20-minute wait and then you get bunker rushed is far and away the biggest reason I don't play BW more. The second-biggest reason is the ICCUP map pool being Fighting Spirit, Python, Destination, and that one guy who likes Tau Cross, for the last 5 years.
Well let's say you are approaching broodwar the wrong way . Build order work's to a certain extent but it will not work every time. When I started out as terran my TvP is e- at best, tried out the Flash build but I hated it because I have to play so defensively, tested out midas FD and tweak it a little bit to suit the new style of playing which is getting a faster CC and by the time my cc is up my Tanks will arrive at my natural to deal with the Goon's pressure .
Most of the times I don't try to carbon copy what the pro's doing for example oh by 24 supply I must build this rather, I try to get the idea what he is trying to do and figured out the reason he is building that unit or cutting scv's at that particular moment of the game . I usually play by feel rather than " Micro and Macro like a bonjwa" .
I use to have this stack of papers having written details of all the build orders of my games, but in the end did it help me ? Nope I was so busy following the build orders to death that I am not reacting properly to the situation is at hand in front of me . You can't rely on build order to win you games you know ...
Also MOTW is basically are voted by the users, some times we get some new maps because we have been playing fighting spirit 1001 times already and if you check this week maps there has been quite a lot of new map's added in to the pool and python is nowhere in the list . Well for me, Playing against random player always make me nervous as they will be very cheesy and do some crazy insane strategy or hit me at a weird timing . So yeah I don't usually play with random unless I am in " I Don't give a damn " mode at that time.
I am wondering what race are you playing ? What's stopping you from playing creatively ?
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a lot of these posts have made the thread a thinly veiled sc2 hate thread :/
All the respect in the world to BW-- great game, great community. <3 SC2 forever though. With regards to OP, I think Pholon had a point, but there were a few things that I liked in the post.
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To the people saying my post sounded 'angry', I am angry. Yes, "I mad, bro." Mad that the game I looked forward to for so long (Starcraft 2) turned out to be the way it is. Mad that Battle.net 2.0 is so goddamn awful, mad at automine and smartcast. Mad that I'm apparently a hipster because I don't see Brood War --> SC2 as an inevitable transition or an upgrade. Mad that people who never followed BW think that 'Boxer was the bonjourgo of BW and he's not even that good in SC2, so herpaderpderp!' And yes, okay, you win: I'm mad that SC2 is sucking the lower tier players and fresh blood out of BW (because lower tier players ARE necessary for a healthy competitive scene).
But I keep that out of the SC2 forums because trolling is impolite. This, however, is in the BW forums, and I really wish you would all just go away.
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On January 29 2012 11:09 Hinanawi wrote:
To the people saying my post sounded 'angry', I am angry. Yes, "I mad, bro." Mad that the game I looked forward to for so long (Starcraft 2) turned out to be the way it is. Mad that Battle.net 2.0 is so goddamn awful, mad at automine and smartcast. Mad that I'm apparently a hipster because I don't see Brood War --> SC2 as an inevitable transition or an upgrade. Mad that people who never followed BW think that 'Boxer was the bonjourgo of BW and he's not even that good in SC2, so herpaderpderp!' And yes, okay, you win: I'm mad that SC2 is sucking the lower tier players and fresh blood out of BW (because lower tier players ARE necessary for a healthy competitive scene).
But I keep that out of the SC2 forums because trolling is impolite. This, however, is in the BW forums, and I really wish you would all just go away.
I feel exactly the same way as you do man. I mean i have been waiting for sc2 so long and was expecting something awesome. Instead of that i got a game that i haven't enjoyed a little bit and the worst part is that i basically got the game i love (foreign bw) stolen from me. Yes, i am also mad.
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On January 29 2012 05:52 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 04:49 Bleak wrote:
What's the next step? Going over to Dota forums and posting "Everyone should play a little LoL"? Dota vs LoL has similarities to BW vs SC2 LoL is less balanced and is dumbed down to appeal to more casual/younger players. SC2 is less balanced and is dumbed down to appeal to more casual players. LoL also technically has better graphics than dota but dota's are still way better to look at because LoL has stupid, cartoony, graphics. SC2 technically has better graphics than BW but BW still manages to look better to me at least. SC2 is more frequently just balls of clumped units running into each other, in Brood War battles resemble battles.
This is very true, I don't like 3d gfx in RTS games because what happens is the units all stack on top of each other.
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EPT
