EPTMondragon vs Testie Best of 27 - Page 8
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nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
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LostDevil
Fiji283 Posts
On June 17 2005 09:47 ManaBlue wrote: He beat Mondi in a series PvZ for the first TLT final...what the fuck is your problem? Even if you don't like him overall, he is one of few that has contested Mondis ZvP greatness. Stop being a dick. Umm i was seriously asking a question... I know he was good considering I ob'ed him back in the day a few times when he was in his prime but everyone is always like Oh SMUFT TO THE RESCUE.. just wondering why... | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Bottom line is Elky, Smuft, Grrrrr, Slayer, Saft etc CAN start to play again seriously and maybe be the "best" again or something, but why should them ? To disprove some of you saying they suck now and would be totally raped by the good players now ? I think Smuft would have a decent chance vs Mondragon if he started to play again, but there is no way in hell we can find out because most probably he wont start playing again. Anyways my point is the level of players have not increased tremendously the last two-three years, and probably wont either, thus saying the best players two-three years ago would be without chance if they got back into gaming is not valid. | ||
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rSWisdom[9]
United States117 Posts
On June 17 2005 22:01 Guybrush wrote: Probably because people tend to forget pretty fast, and jump on conclusions way to fast. You can spot it easily among the "OMG Boxer is too old he's never gonna win anything anymore". Boxer is soon 25 and still playing in the top after five years. He was in the final of the biggest tournament in Korea around 6 months ago. Dont tell me he was lucky. The fact is that the game hasnt evolved that much, but the pool of good players have grown. Players doesnt get worse, but other players get better. There is no dominating #1 in Korea, and there havent been since Boxers prime. It's the same outside Korea. Two years ago Mondragon wasnt anything special, and two years from now someone else is going to be better than him. Maybe not because they are "better players" in terms of skill, but probably because Mondragon will lose his motivation and start doing other things. This happens to everyone excluding Testie, but he hasnt been as good as he is now before. Bottom line is Elky, Smuft, Grrrrr, Slayer, Saft etc CAN start to play again seriously and maybe be the "best" again or something, but why should them ? To disprove some of you saying they suck now and would be totally raped by the good players now ? I think Smuft would have a decent chance vs Mondragon if he started to play again, but there is no way in hell we can find out because most probably he wont start playing again. Anyways my point is the level of players have not increased tremendously the last two-three years, and probably wont either, thus saying the best players two-three years ago would be without chance if they got back into gaming is not valid. i like this argument, he actually gives examples and speaks very coherently. too bad most ppl are too lazy/dumb to write this well =] | ||
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OctoPuSs
Canada5279 Posts
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LastWish
2015 Posts
On June 17 2005 20:39 nArAnjO wrote: zvp on p2h = take exp, make lurks, go mass muta --> take islands = do whatever u want gg ^^ Yeah but that exp is kind of vunerable too. Like u may go some zealots + make cannons below expand and then corsair/shuttle to scout. Or mass goon to reaver could be useful, dragoons fireing from below at drones. Haven't tried it really yet, but it might work since the corridors are quite narrow. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 17 2005 18:26 FroZZoR wrote: p2h is like the worst map for zvp ever imo i don't see how u can say it favors z. it involves zerg trying to do gay tricks while turtling and staying alive and then probably losing a very long game. Chojja is a beast on p2h ZvP ;O | ||
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drift0ut
United Kingdom691 Posts
-If you were to compare progaming now compared to back then? First of all the maps have changed drastically, and the players are on a completely different level. I always think that the newcomers will be the strongest because it’s so hard to establish yourself as a progamer these days. When I first came to Korea, I just played and practiced regularly without too much pressure. However today, all the players practice very hard and are very good. I’m not going to try again because the players are just too good (laughs). The scale also has increased dramatically. When I first played in the Starleague final I only played in a small studio in Bundang (a district) and there weren’t many fans there either. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=28192 it seems unlikly to me that players like boxer have actually got worse, but he's no longer winning evrything which would suggest other players have got better. but then this is in korea and they are a few levels above that rest of the world anyway | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
Back then, strategical thinking and lower macro games were played, nowadays its all about monster macro and timing, Starcraft has certainly evolved, not necessarily through "tactics'" or the choice of units used in each matchup, but the ability of players has certainly increased by a lot. We'd be hardpressed to see a player play as well as Boxer as he did in say, his 2002 WCG domination vs blackman, but his macro is still weak. In a year there will easily be a player who can have that sort of ability (minus the artistical flair and cuteness Boxer has) who makes up for it fully with a dominating macro and timing. Oh wait, he' | ||
RaGe
Belgium9950 Posts
On June 18 2005 06:34 exalted wrote: Guybrush - I disagree Back then, strategical thinking and lower macro games were played, nowadays its all about monster macro and timing, Starcraft has certainly evolved, not necessarily through "tactics'" or the choice of units used in each matchup, but the ability of players has certainly increased by a lot. We'd be hardpressed to see a player play as well as Boxer as he did in say, his 2002 WCG domination vs blackman, but his macro is still weak. In a year there will easily be a player who can have that sort of ability (minus the artistical flair and cuteness Boxer has) who makes up for it fully with a dominating macro and timing. Oh wait, he' hmm I think its all about how you look at it when you really think about it, strategical thinking hasnt become less important, it has become more evident. On pro level you can almost never outthink your opponent anymore, but that doesnt mean it isnt that important anymore. It's like saying splitting your 4 scvs perfectly isnt important anymore because everyone can do it. It's just not what matters these days. These days achievement is a result of different factors; experience, luck, speed, concentration only to name a few. But there will never be a perfect starcraft player. Never. | ||
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Jim
Sweden1965 Posts
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lightman
United States731 Posts
On June 17 2005 16:25 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I agree that Mondragon is much better today, and that Smuft has always had a strong PvZ (not godlike or anything but pretty damn strong). He won TLT because he was the better player of the two. Today he would most likely lose on the same maps. There's no reason to scream for Smuft because Mondragon dominates the foreign PvZ scene, it makes no difference. and with this: On June 17 2005 22:01 Guybrush wrote: Bottom line is Elky, Smuft, Grrrrr, Slayer, Saft etc CAN start to play again seriously and maybe be the "best" again or something, but why should them ? To disprove some of you saying they suck now and would be totally raped by the good players now ? I think Smuft would have a decent chance vs Mondragon if he started to play again, but there is no way in hell we can find out because most probably he wont start playing again. Anyways my point is the level of players have not increased tremendously the last two-three years, and probably wont either, thus saying the best players two-three years ago would be without chance if they got back into gaming is not valid. I can't call who would win a current Smuft vs Mondragon matchup but I think that if Smuft gets there with a couple of practice weeks it would be a very very awesome series of games. Mondragon = Best ZvP outside korea, that's for sure Smuft = PvZ k, is not his best matchup, but it's just pretty very damn strong and solid enough to molest Mondragon | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Fact: Nada had as good macro two-three years ago as he has now. Fact: Other players have caught up to this macro (midas, oov, etc) False: Everything is about macro/execution/timing now. Which again leads to my point - The overall level of the best players havent increased alot, but the pool of best players have grown, meaning that instead of the 10 top - now 50 top players in the world can beat each other on any given day. Maybe even more. | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
 Sry.I said "Where's Smuft when you need him" more as a joke than anything else. BW will never get him back from poker, so it's pointless to even talk about it. He just always comes up whenever people talk about Mondi PvZ so I threw it out there. To the guys saying the maps favoured P, shut your face. Smuft won on a still slightly Zerg favoured map pool, because he was the better player. No one with half a brain has ever disputed that Smuft deserved the TLT title, so stop making yourself look stupid. As for the original topic; I don't get why they don't play a smaller series, let's say bo9, on a bigger map pool with RvZ. After watching the quality of some of the games I can say that there is little entertainment to be found. They're great players and much more capable of producing a worth while series playing to win, rather than for fun.  But I guess that's what this little match was always about.Either way, these games prove/show/imply/suggest absolutely nothing about either player or their abilities. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4144 Posts
http://www.gosus.com/news/comments.php?news=86&sid=3a6cb6b6dab9e87f891cb4df83bdd9ce | ||
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
 He just knows both sides of that MU inside out.Now this is interesting. The only MUs remaining are mondi playing Z. Testie needs 3 games to win. This may prove to be entertaining after all.  These are the games I've really been waiting for. | ||
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MannerKiss
United States2398 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28781 Posts
after mondi won the pvz 2-1 I think he will take it 14-13. the him zerg series will end 7-2 in his favour. | ||
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Refrain[FriZ]
Canada4337 Posts
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
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