So there is all this talk about how "the new sc2 fans dont understand our history"
Well teach me.
Tell me why this game you all love is so amazing, teach me why flash/bisu/jaedong/boxer were all so amazing.
Show me our favorite vods, tell me why I need to be appreciative. I want to learn.
I've played a few matches on iccup and omg is it hard, and I want to hear about these experiences from a hardened fan.
I want to at least have an understanding of broodwar so I can fully appreciate how far esports has come, so I can understand why a boxer/idea match is amazing, and why flash possibly coming to sc2 is a big deal.
Teach me, as a young sc2 fan who only knows StarCraft as sc2, please teach us all.
edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
Here are some of my favorite VODs on youtube for broodwar. See how much enthusiasm the commentators put into the game, the unparalleled suspense and excitement a certain comeback, rush or moment can give. Anyways I'm not a skilled forum poster but here are some of the moments of broodwar that I loved in the broodwar scene.
Honestly, my first suggestion is to get your hands on a copy of SC BW and play a few games against the computer, see how hard controlling things is, realize that without automine making workers is even more of a chore, etc. That will give you an appreciation of how difficult BW is on a mechanical level. Then I suggest digging up some english casts of great past games from youtube (I suggest klazart because I enjoyed his casting, but there are others such as cholera and diggity), and watch them. I'm at work so I can't exactly link any VODs/casts right now, but I'm sure someone can. Having English commentary helps in understanding what the heck is going on if you aren't familiar with the game.
You can always read liquipedia for additional information, and IIRC there is a thread with the best game/series ever somewhere in the BW section, I'm sure you could find it with a quick search.
Do you like DongRaeGu's ZvT style? Crisp Mutalisk control, fantastic engagements, terran armies disappearing in miliseconds, even the best of the best representatives of Terran race getting trashed? Do you think he's the first to reach the horizon of the matchup?
HELL NO!!!
Meet the guy who created that horizon: Lee Jae Dong
Entertaining cheese? Evil Genius in action? Creativity? Innovation?
Watch this rookie doing all of these on the best ZvTer alive:
Frankly, I'm pretty new to the BW scene, as i only started watching vods in late 2009. As such, I'm not well equipped to discuss the game's history, but i can point you to some great series that were recently played, in each non-mirror matchup, since just like in Sc2 these tend to be the most interesting. All vods have commentary, and you can find links to the later vods in the series on Youtube.
Jin Air OSL Finals - Fantasy v Jangbi - In the previous OSL, Fantasy won by defeating Jangbi's teammate and fellow Protoss player Stork. Jangbi, after having been in a persistent slump for almost a year, started playing very well toward the end of Proleague, and advanced to the finals of this OSL with a Ro8 win against Flash and a Ro4 win against young ZvP specialist Soo.
Game 1, with commentary from Nukethestars -
Bacchus OSL Semi Finals - Calm vs Fantasy - Another crazy series involving Fantasy, wherein he faces off against solid STX zerg player Calm. Technically speaking, this series sees both players play rather poorly, but it is still tremendously entertaining. The highlight occurs in game 4, where Fantasy goes fast gas, gets 4 pooled, defends, and goes for a unique response.
Game 1, with commentary from Nukethestars -
Bigfile MSL Ro8 - Snow v Jaedong - Jaedong, the reigning king of the zerg, faces off against young CJ protoss Snow, who up to this point had shown amazing PvT and not much else in the other matchups. In game one, Jaedong rolls over him, and everyone expects a 3-0. However, a week later when they return to finish the series, Snow plays the best PvZ of his life, and gives us one of the best series of the season.
Game 2 (skipping game 1, since it's basically a walkover), with commentary from RanshinDA -
On October 29 2011 01:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: be specific in what you want to know,I will help you as much as I can.
In short, everything.
What should a sc2 fan know about the broodwar scene in order to fully apprecciate this great series of games?
If I wanted to learn about flash and jaedong, where should I go?
I really wanted to cleave this thread up to the broodwar community - what do you think a new sc2 fan needs to know.
I don't know if you actually played BW yet, but if you really want to enjoy the VODs you watch, you should try playing it first. SC2BW (on appropriate settings of course) even if you don't have BW, once you've played a few games I think you can appreciate watching the pros more.
Guys, when were posting vods for people who haven't watched BW, we really should post them with english commentary. Remember, in all likelihood they've never watched games without it.
On October 29 2011 01:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: be specific in what you want to know,I will help you as much as I can.
In short, everything.
What should a sc2 fan know about the broodwar scene in order to fully apprecciate this great series of games?
If I wanted to learn about flash and jaedong, where should I go?
I really wanted to cleave this thread up to the broodwar community - what do you think a new sc2 fan needs to know.
I don't know if you actually played BW yet, but if you really want to enjoy the VODs you watch, you should try playing it first. SC2BW (on appropriate settings of course) even if you don't have BW, once you've played a few games I think you can appreciate watching the pros more.
I have played a few games against the computer. It was hard
On October 29 2011 02:26 deafhobbit wrote: Guys, when were posting vods for people who haven't watched BW, we really should post them with english commentary. Remember, in all likelihood they've never watched games without it.
TSL 1 and 2 would be a good place for you to start watching vods for BW. TSL2 playlist is on the YouTube channel nevake along with most vods in BW history.
i dont know what i can tell you but i'll share some of my favourite vods and see if u are amazed by them...
though it has such a bad quality, it think it is the best SC video i have seen it clearly demonstrates why starcraft is an art, why it is superior to other games.
goon vs vul + tank, this is a must in bw pvt, and sometimes it can be so epic, just like this one.
my idol reach great storm against flash, nice storm+nice flank
an of cuz this one is probably the most epic moment in foreign sc scene... nony vs idra. great storm
On October 29 2011 01:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: be specific in what you want to know,I will help you as much as I can.
In short, everything.
What should a sc2 fan know about the broodwar scene in order to fully apprecciate this great series of games?
If I wanted to learn about flash and jaedong, where should I go?
I really wanted to cleave this thread up to the broodwar community - what do you think a new sc2 fan needs to know.
I don't know if you actually played BW yet, but if you really want to enjoy the VODs you watch, you should try playing it first. SC2BW (on appropriate settings of course) even if you don't have BW, once you've played a few games I think you can appreciate watching the pros more.
I have played a few games against the computer. It was hard
Maybe try the campaign before. I's nice, and more progressive. The computer is not that hard, but you need to know what you're doing to beat him. He also only has two strat per race, except for terran, just one. It's almost impossible to go play 1v1 on iCCup without having watched progames/replays/read liquipedia though. For watching, it all depends on your tastes. BW has inspired cheese, long macro games, epic comebacks, odd strat not making sense, micro moments, harass heavy games, well, you name it, it exists.
On October 29 2011 02:26 deafhobbit wrote: Guys, when were posting vods for people who haven't watched BW, we really should post them with english commentary. Remember, in all likelihood they've never watched games without it.
F that noise. Korean commentary or go home!
No, you're wrong. If you know enough about the game to understand it without english commentary, by all means watch it with Korea. Korean commentators have more enthusiasm than anyone else, and turn a GG into an orgasmic experience.
With that said, someone who doesn't follow BW, and who doesn't understand how it works, will have no idea whats going on with Korean commentary, and probably won't bother to watch.
to me, the most awesome moments was when the game, no even rts itself, was figured out more and more.
the two most memorable moments of me was the reign of boxer and then the reign of his pupil oov.
boxer was the first to really micro, who probably used units the way blizzard didn't even imagine they could be used (dropship + tank) and abused immaruculous micro to win battles many others would have lost. he was such a great character in the world of esports and in Korea in general, that when he started his military service, he didn't need to do military chores, the military started to play starcraft.
oov was the first to really macro. no matter how often his opponent would crush his army, there was always another army on the horizon, most of the times even bigger than the previous ones. this is what earned him the nick cheater terran!
Play Brood War one year, and think about the hardships you've faced, then watch some big names playing Brood War, may be fpvods, doesn't matter, then you will appreciate bw scene.
For me, the only way to fully understand how things are things, is just to play the game.
On October 29 2011 01:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: be specific in what you want to know,I will help you as much as I can.
In short, everything.
What should a sc2 fan know about the broodwar scene in order to fully apprecciate this great series of games?
If I wanted to learn about flash and jaedong, where should I go?
I really wanted to cleave this thread up to the broodwar community - what do you think a new sc2 fan needs to know.
I don't know if you actually played BW yet, but if you really want to enjoy the VODs you watch, you should try playing it first. SC2BW (on appropriate settings of course) even if you don't have BW, once you've played a few games I think you can appreciate watching the pros more.
I have played a few games against the computer. It was hard
You don't have to have a certain skill level but I think most SC2 players don't realize how hard it is to keeping making workers and not have auto mine or control 30 zerglings at once or macro out of 10 gates without MBS. So once you get an idea of how hard it is actually play the game, you will love watching the pros more.
my idol reach great storm against flash, nice storm+nice flank
I want to talk a bit about this clip, with the low quality someone whose not used to BW might miss the epicness.
So, it's a pretty standard late game Pvt - Flash has a large group of tanks supported by vultures, goliaths, and vessels. He's standing against a wall to prevent a flank. Reach lands a solid stasis from an arbiter JUST before Flash's EMP hits, and charges in, with about 1/3 of the tanks disabled.
By itself, that's pretty cool, but the real epicness comes a few seconds later. Flash has his vessels to the right side of his army, since he needs them to detect Reach's cloaked army. However, Reach moves an arbiter in on the left, over the wall at flash's back, and uses it's cloak field to hide a shuttle with 2 HT's in it. He drops them right behind Flash's army, and is perfectly positioned to line up a few devastating storms that kill most of Flash's active tanks, letting his army sweep up the rest.
Keep your eye on the left half of the screen, that's where the epicness really lies.
On October 29 2011 02:26 deafhobbit wrote: Guys, when were posting vods for people who haven't watched BW, we really should post them with english commentary. Remember, in all likelihood they've never watched games without it.
F that noise. Korean commentary or go home!
No, you're wrong. If you know enough about the game to understand it without english commentary, by all means watch it with Korea. Korean commentators have more enthusiasm than anyone else, and turn a GG into an orgasmic experience.
With that said, someone who doesn't follow BW, and who doesn't understand how it works, will have no idea whats going on with Korean commentary, and probably won't bother to watch.
I agree with this. When I first started attending SC matches, I barely even paid attention to the games. As someone with only some level of RTS knowledge, and no knowledge specifically of SC, I had a really hard time figuring out what the hell was going on. I mean sure, two players clash their armies, the guy with the units left is probably the winner, but it wasn't interesting to watch. I fell asleep during sets 3 through 5 of CJ vs. SKT (and I feel terrible for it now, in retrospect) and even zoned out during games 4 and 6 of the SPL finals. But then I started watching a few older games that had eng commentary (Bisu vs. Savior MSL finals, Stork vs. Fantasy OSL finals), and I learned more about the game, the units, the dynamics between units, strategies, etc. By the time the Jin Air OSL finals came about, I went and could actually understand what was going on, which made it all the more exciting when the Korean commentators started yelling like crazy or the crowd started cheering and I would cheer with them. Understanding comes first; hype and excitement can follow after.
This is exactly the stuff i wanted. I'll be sure to show this to sc2 fans who dont know about the broodwar scene, keep them coming. I plan on watching them all after classes today
Epic rivalries give context to BW and all the intricacies outside of the game that define its lush history. I'll start with my 2 favorites and list some others:
Also, some interesting topics to do some research on: the Kkong line, the bonjwa line, royal roaders, legend of the fall, six dragons, the revolutionist, The Kim Carrier Curse, Leta's ppp incident, match fixing, the four kings, TBLS, booth girls, my_digital_toss(MDT), Jaehoon the PvX enigma. I would explain, but there are people on TL whose knowledge on these topics exceed mine, so i'll let them have at it. Can't think of much else. GL and enjoy!
PPPS: fpvod's from progamers. One example is Bisu's dizzying fpvod from one of the best games to date (you won't mind that the entire commentary is in korean, as you will have to use all of your concentration just to hold in the motion-sickness-induced-vomit): + Show Spoiler +
You'll have to start playing to understand. The games won't look that great until you play and understand the difficulty. Try to run 3-4 bases with good macro off 10+ production facilities and you'll understand what's going on.
People say that MBS and 12unit control groups should not matter when it comes to spectatorship, however it does. Why do you ask?Because managing 5 bases is incredibly hard, imagine having to make probes out of ~3 nexusses at the same time(with 1 click each). Then when they spawn you have to click each probe and tell them to start mining. Do we see it?No, however we do know that is being done. Losses can be attributed to fail macro and it differs the mediocre from the top players.
In Starcraft 2, Macroing is much easier, you have MBS ,automining and stuff. This makes the skill difference between mediocre players and good players much smaller. I am currently in Diamond league in SC2, and let me tell you I suck at the game. However it is so easy that anyone can do it, the easiest division on ICCup BW, the D is harder then anything I have ever played against in Starcraft 2. I got absolutely demolished by any competent player SOLELY on his mechanics when it comes to macro.
In short, the terrible UI of BroodWar in it days actually attributes to the skill gap difference between mediocre and good players in Brood war. There is no such thing in Starcraft 2, as with warpgate tech, MBS, etc it is much easier for anyone. Therefore the skill gap is much smaller.
Is this a good thing?This is open to interpretation, I will admit that I personally find SCBW mechanically too taxing alone , I can not play it at on a high level(I get crushed whenever I attempt ICCup. Bonwja's as we know it exist partially because of this. Oov was famed for his incredible Terran macro, he was known to totally change the game solely based upon his incredible impressive macro mechanics. These days in Starcraft 2 everyone is on that level. Therefore the chance of a SC2 Bonwja is reduced, is it good?maybe, personally I like Bonwja's. People that are untouchable, and when beaten by a player considered inferior it adds to the suspense, the amazingness. SC2 is still young, and therefore there won't be a incredible Bonwja for years, however with reasons stated above one can not rely on superior macro mechanic skill to do so.
Smartcasting
In SC2 we know that you have smartcasting, If you do not know what this includes. Basically if you have a group of 7 templars and click T(for storm) and storm somewhere only 1 templar will storm. In Brood war this is a different story, 7 templars and you press T on a location?7 storms will occur on that area. This is the reason why we are amazed EACH time if a Protoss storms brilliantly like Jangbi,(famed to destroy Nada's complete tankline with the use of a couple templars) Or when a person totally fails with a storm. Storms change battles, they change the tide, and they were not the only spells, Dark swarm, emp stasis. The BW flawed IU actually made it impressive for us as spectators to see something which we knew we could NEVER achieve.
It basically reflects what I think aswell. Everything was so overpowerd in Brood war, storms do a whopping 112 damage. This while Storm in Starcraft 2 does only 80 damage. With the added use of smartcasting, 112 damage storms in SC2 would Break the game so hard and I will explain why. The dreaded Ball effect it looks like this
How many times have you heard it? Balls make SC2 unfun to watch etc.
However to understand why you need to understand how the ball actually does this rather then be screamed at by BW fan people.
Simply put, balls mean clumping, clumping means reduced surface area. This affects melee units especially, zerglings have hard time engaging even a ball of stalkers in a good amount. Even if you surround say 12 stalkers with 50 zerglings, not all 50 zerglings can even attack, most of them will run around like idiots tryinig to find a hole to fit in to attack. Sure the zerglings will come out on top, however as you see melee units are much weaker in that aspect compared to Brood War. Because there was no clumping there(save from air clumping like muta's sairs etc) this made zerglings effective and neglected the massive advantage that range gain over melee partially.
Not only Zerglings suffer from this, ranged units actually do too. Units with superior range, such as the Collosus have a easy time shooting with their 9 range from the safety of their ball. However units such as the hydralisks or the roach can hardly reach the collosi, why?Because it is in a ball and is effectivly BLOCKED by stalkers, forcefields(more on this later) and units due to clumping.
This also means splash is that much more powerfull, and things such as Psi storm can not possible have 112 damage, they would not only change the tide of a battle but destroy the very fun of the game. It would be horridly overpowerd.
Now I will move on to the visuals of the ball. People always say SC2 has superior graphics, I am not 1 to deny this(hell noone sane can) but there is something different about a ball as opposed to ''loose units''. Seeing ~30-40 units shoved in a surface area so small that they only contain such a small amount of the battlefield is for me personally offputting. Why?Because seeing streams of units come from different angles is so much more exciting. Hell it does not have to be a angle for me, if they run alongside each other it is so much more fun to watch for me. If you have never watched a Protoss break a siege tank line in BW then you should. It is hordes of zealots/dragoons coming in from a WIDE SPACE, how does it work in SC2?They come in a ball.
Micro
Ah micro, the sweetest of the Starcraft gameplay, where a unit in the hands of a good player is that much more potent then in the hands of a average player. It is this more then anything which visually directly affects the spectatorship of both games. Remember when people were amazed at MarineKingPrime when he microed his marines around banelings?I too was excited, it was perhaps the first step in true SC micro as we BW fans know it. However after that I have watched countless games of SC2 and.....nothing else happens.
This outlines what I am missing in SC2 at this moment. I will tell you about the most basic and some of the most micro intensive units in SCBW
The excitement that Brood war brings has alot to do with flawed AI and I will tell you why. I will tell you about the interesting units that Brood war has opposed to Starcraft 2.
The Reaver, Vulture and Scourge.
Reavers are very interesting units this, has to do with the fact that the scarab that it shoots is retarded. If you have ever watched BW you know that a scarab can dud alot of the times, however It can also cause HUGE damage to the opponent(read, ~8 workers dead in 1 shot). This adds to alot of suspense, will the Reaver kill or not?
Now we come to the Reaver equivalent that Protoss has gained, the Collosi
The Collosi is are impressive units to see (bzzzzzzzzzt), it is visually impressive but it is practically a boring unit, it attacks and that is about it. You can not micro anything with it.
Another unit which brings interest to the game is the Vulture, as you might know a vulture has spider mines. These bad boys are horridly overpowerd when used correctly, as the have a incredibly high splash damage and vultures come with them when upgraded, 3 of them to be exact. But they can turn the tide of a game incredibly fast, Normally vultures can not destroy dragoons at all. They do 25% damage against dragoons, a pitifull amount. However with proper micro and mine placement, a group of vultures can take out the unit it supposedly is countered by. And to counter that, a group of well controlled dragoons can take out each of the dangerous mines placed around them.
This clip says it all, it is micro from both sides and the one who does it best comes out on top, it is how it should be. The better player should win based upon his unit control, not his unit control alone though but amazing things can happen with vultures and alot of different units in the hands of good players.
Another example is the unit we know as the Scourge, these bastards are flying suicide units, like Banelings. And they could be avoided with micro or do tremendous damage with proper micro. I have said before that MKP splitting was something which resembled Brood war, now check the clip below
This was amazing to see, this shuttle juke. What made it more amazing is what he saved, he saved a shuttle with 2 high templars, some of the most costly units in the Protoss arsenal, Because it is so hard to macro in Starcraft 1, the units are much less likely to be replaced and need to be saved at all costs. The zerg their scourges are the buggers which are amazing to watch for both fails and success.
Supernovamaniac has elaborated a bit more about how amazing this and I will put his quote here if you want to read up on it as he explains it quite well. + Show Spoiler +
On March 09 2011 09:11 supernovamaniac wrote: With scourges chasing from behind, you can only turn at a certain angle to avoid the scourges hitting the shuttle from the back.
Though most players don't have to do this, Kal had to avoid the scourges coming in from the right top. Now, if this was the middle of the map, Kal can run away right bottom and keep his shuttle safe. However, there was no chance for Kal to do this as they were on the bottom of the map.
One wrong click in that video and the shuttle have exploded. Kal found the perfect angle to escape those scourges.
Now imagine for a second that we live in a dream world where scourges have entered SC2 through a incredibly weird dimension. The question is as a Protoss, when scourges fly near my deathball, can I micro my Collosi away from the Scourges while simutaniously targeting the scourges(and not the army that comes with it) to save my collosi. After which I proceed to destroy the Zerg army based upon my superior micro control? We can only hope.
I like OPs like this. Making the effort to understand BW as an SC2 fan. Very much appreciated I'll add vods when I find them, meanwhile have fun watching those posted above, you'll enjoy it.
I think you have to play BW to fully appreciate what you see when progamers play. The level of mastery compared to even your average competent player is just indescribable. It's like nothing you will experience in SC2 or any other game for that matter. The more you know about the game, the more impressive their play becomes
What makes this game awesome is not the amazing plays or games. The OP can watch all those amazing plays and never understand the awesomeness of the game because he doens't know how hard is to pull those things off.
In sc2 once you saw Boxer EMP a whole army you can go and do the same with a few clics just as good as he does.
But how many ppl can go and lock down 10 Battlecruisers or blind 6 observers in BW? even after watching boxer doing it?
HOw many ppl can have Jangbi like storms??
In BW it is not enough to plan doing it. Execution is so hard that when you see a perfect play like those mentioned your mind just blows of the sky.
I've never watched a full game of broodwar before only parts, but I could not wipe this massive banana grin i had on my face when i saw the mutalisks first attack that clump of marines and medics, something about that micro just seems like magic to me.
I'm sorry to all the current broodwar players who have grown up with this beautiful game and had to see its demise like this, i'm sad I wasnt here when BW was big, but I hope one day that the same magic that is felt in BW will be felt in SC2.
Alot of extensive post's have already covered highlights and specific games, aswell as general brood war theory. So i'll cover some things that haven't gotten much love yet.
Firstly i'd like to echo this sentiment:
On October 29 2011 05:21 Nazza wrote: GOMTV star invitationals are a good place to start.They are casted in english by tasteless.
Tasteless was really at his peak around this era if you ask me.
In addition to that Brood War leagues have a rich history of awe inspiring intros, so check out this neat compilation by plexa http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=96935. Admittedly it does add alot more if you know the story behind each player, but in many cases that won't even be neccesary. I would also advise anyone who isn't familiar with BW to try playing it on iCCup, it really makes you gain respect for those who can play it at a high level (not to mention that it's extremely hard fun).
Edit: The #1 entry in the top 10 isn't working, so here's a working link:
They've made other noteworthy intros after Plexa's top 10 post too, such as this one: (containing all the old bonjwa's + Reach and Anytime).
Guys, I don't think just linking different vods is the best way If only someone would write a full history of BW progression starting from early years when Koreans and non-Koreans were side by side as now in sc2 and then how it became more and more dominated by koreans how it slowly became the huge deal in Korea what impact it have on e-sports how the gamestyle developed from Boxer tank micro to Flash winning turtle every top player had his own thing, his own style, when you could guess who was playing just by looking at his strategy.
But that history has never been made, and who would try to do such a gigantic work? I mean think about it: you can write a full article about just 1 progamer, even 1 style, including lots of pics, explanations and VoDs but to make it on all the top players simultaneously + the game itself? This is more then just a book....this is more than encyclopedia...it's just too much
and if you use the "search" button you can easily find the fine-written articles by best starcraft writers about the top players and bury yourself into the depth of the game.
cheers!
P.S.: I do however (and this is just personal opinion) doubt that someone who has joined the world of esport gaming with sc2 will have the wisdom to appreciate that misterious land of brood war.
After watching all of these, I'm starting to understand why you guys care. I don't understand the game, but it looks different - and a good different. And holy bejesus is jaedong awesome. Flash videos are really cool; pretty much any video you guys hav been linked are like wtfwtfwtf awesome :D
On October 29 2011 05:54 imjorman wrote: After watching all of these, I'm starting to understand why you guys care. I don't understand the game, but it looks different - and a good different. And holy bejesus is jaedong awesome. Flash videos are really cool; pretty much any video you guys hav been linked are like wtfwtfwtf awesome :D
On October 29 2011 05:54 imjorman wrote: After watching all of these, I'm starting to understand why you guys care. I don't understand the game, but it looks different - and a good different. And holy bejesus is jaedong awesome. Flash videos are really cool; pretty much any video you guys hav been linked are like wtfwtfwtf awesome :D
It's even more amazing when you know whats going on and when you can appreciate just how hard it is to pull this stuff off.
On October 29 2011 01:57 imjorman wrote: edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
Now do you understand why I don't want progress bars and why I want passionate, yelling, narrative casting instead of analytical, predictive casting?
Go watch OGN's broadcast of SC2 WCG. Same BW commentators, way better b/c of them and b/c of no progress bars.
On October 29 2011 05:54 imjorman wrote: After watching all of these, I'm starting to understand why you guys care. I don't understand the game, but it looks different - and a good different. And holy bejesus is jaedong awesome. Flash videos are really cool; pretty much any video you guys hav been linked are like wtfwtfwtf awesome :D
It's even more amazing when you know whats going on and when you can appreciate just how hard it is to pull this stuff off.
The simplest things in SC2 are amazingly hard in BW. I remember the very first game I played of BW, I set my rally points and just kept making scvs. but for some reason, my money never seemed to go up quicker. Then I realized, I had to manually make them mine.
...
The difficulty in performing a simple action jut like that blew my mind and impressed me so much. I have respect for these guys just from having that LIMITED knowledge of BW. I can't imagine what Flash would do if he stepped into the SC2 arena. the damage would be unrivaled b y anything else in sports history ^^
On October 29 2011 01:57 imjorman wrote: edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
Now do you understand why I don't want progress bars and why I want passionate, yelling, narrative casting instead of analytical, predictive casting?
Go watch OGN's broadcast of SC2 WCG. Same BW commentators, way better b/c of them and b/c of no progress bars.
Well, to fully appreciate the pro's ability you may need to have some experience playing the game. Not even a lot, but just a little taste of some decent level 1v1 (which can just be holding your own at d level on iccup).
It's just incredible. It's a summation of all the multitasking that a pro has to do beyond just simple concepts of "cool micro" and "good macro". You have to go back to your base to make workers/send them to mine, there is no multiple building selection, hotkeys limited to 12 units, unit pathing, unit firing (units don't even fire correctly), true "magic boxing" (laying mines, storms). It's meticulous attention to detail, and it's just incredible to think 1 person is capable of doing all of that.
All though a lot of that may not seem that impressive just reading, so that's where some playing of brood war has to come in.
Now, I think other people have posted good clips that represent the game, and fpvod's will show you the speed/intensity that is required for a progamer. You only need to see a little to see that battles in sc:bw are a bit less "clumped", extend for screens, and last longer; even lasting for minutes at a time. The first time watching a muta harass and you can see that it's constant, active muta micro for 2-5 minutes; you're simply amazed by it. One recommendation I might have is check out all the "pimpest play" videos (one was posted on first page--2005 starleague best highlights), that unfortunately youtube has blocked a lot of the audio for some of them. Here's one from 2002, 2007, and two boxer videos. You'll note if you look for "pimp" plays a lot are splitting marines/making marines live much longer than they should. If you think marine micro in sc2 can be impressive you haven't seen anything yet + Show Spoiler +
But beyond battle mechanics (elaborated by others) there are some fundamental things that distinguish it from sc2 that are really important. --map control/usage of the map: in sc:bw, there is action all over the map. People expand to the corners of a map very early on, often having their third base be the opposite corner of the map (zerg does this zvp, zvt) ; protoss will do it as will in pvt. From what I see, sc2 you don't do this. All the races keep their expansions close to each other, unless they are trying to have a "ninja" expo or a gold base in a weirder location. But in bw, it's common practice, and it strategically makes battles occur all over the map. Similarly, very specific parts of a map can become extremely important and people battle over it for minutes on end. In sc2 there really isn't the same feel of high ground/positioning as there is in bw. --armies are too focused in 1 location in sc2. This kind of goes with the last one, but I don't really see nearly the same "action all over the map" or splitting up armies. This isn't even the same as "ball vs ball" sentiments; it's that often times your army is focused at one spot of the map. Some BW maps are GIGANTIC, and action gets spread out all over the place. --fundamental harassment design. In bw it's so impressive because people do minor harass all game long, all over the map, and it's very micro intensive. Muta micro lasts a long time in the mid-game zvt. Reaver/shuttle micro is often intensive, active micro for pvt and pvz. Shuttles with high templar (storm drops) happen a lot; vultures are constantly harassing, and terran will drop bio in tvz and tanks (with vultures) in tvp, tvt. Because the map is so spread out, late game you also get zerg with just a handful of zerglings and a defiler dark swarm somewhere and take out an expansion. In sc2 the main harass I see is either a) hellions (limited late game), b) terran drops or c) occassional warp ins/ling runbys to various expansions. But expansions are again kept in smaller distances to each other, so you don't particularly see a 4 zealot warp in actually take out an expansion.
To think someone, in the middle of all the other stuff they have to do, is able to do such micro-intensive harassment is just....awe inspiring multitask.
edit-- oh, also just smart casting/cloning, which other people have commented on. People are impressed by marine splitting or blinking in sc2--which does require good micro. But that micro is commonplace in sc1 and even more difficult--every spell is not smart casted, scourge splitting is really hard (all your scourge will run into the same unit), muta micro vs scourge is ridiculous (see chinese triangle, etc etc.
"esports" the korean commentators for brood war are really exciting. That's not to say artosis/tasteless/english casters aren't excited, but the koreans are always exciting, all the time. The crowd cheers enthusiastically, and even at run-of-the-mill proleague matches you hear fangirls/guys screaming all the time. The crowds for finals are huge (this is improving for sc2 western esports). And tournament design is different. With fewer tournaments, brood war is extremely "prestigious". You can't help but be hyped for every round of every tournament.
On top of that a lot of unique production value goes into every single tournament in bw. Check out this thread for awesome intro videos throughout time. someone else already linked to plexa's thread, but this thread all the intros basically get posted one of my favs:
a little long, but this is the greatest game i've ever seen. Games like this are why I love brood war
highlights if you don't want to watch the whole thing
defense at 10:00 harass and counter at 18:30 Battle at 26:00 with simultaneous storm drop Battle at 28:20 & incredible defense of 6:00 base soon afterwards plus the iconic image of jaedong dripping sweat after the game
the bnet attack series (only a few have eng subs) are also a good way to learn some basics/see commentated, friendly/casual fpvods. It's less intense but just as impressive, with some humour/personalities mixed in.You can also see games from tasteless's days at gomtv for the averatec-intel classics tournaments (3 seasons).
also if you like yellow's sc2 "code a" series check out nal_ra's oldboy series. ep 1:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 ^ savior thread... i don't think it needs any additional words but it just feels like bw has endless potential... later made even more evident by jaedong who with ridiculous mechanics set the bar even higher....
On October 29 2011 05:54 imjorman wrote: After watching all of these, I'm starting to understand why you guys care. I don't understand the game, but it looks different - and a good different. And holy bejesus is jaedong awesome. Flash videos are really cool; pretty much any video you guys hav been linked are like wtfwtfwtf awesome :D
One thing if you're having difficulty understanding, you might want to check out the old GOMTV classic series. Season 1, 2, and 3. They're still on GOM's website for free GOMtv Classic and have Tasteless (and later lil'Susie and Super Daniel Man) casting which makes things easier. I know people get down on Tasteless now for not being analytical enough, but in his BW days he was definitely both funny and analytical and pretty good at explaining things.
The other nice thing is you can see them in order and kind of get a feel for how the entire season progressed or else just watch the most viewed ones which are generally the final matches.
One thing that really helps in your appreciation for the game is when you go out and try the strategies and tactics the pro's are doing and then you find out just how hard it is to do what they do.
On October 29 2011 07:26 samaNo4 wrote: What is the name of the Proleague main comentator? He appeared in Hyung Joon becomes a progamer and he is the fucking boss.
There are different commentators for ogn/mbc but I think you are looking for lee seung won?
and whenever i think of flash, my favorite player <3, this game at around from the 23-24 minute mark, the scene where the two MnM armies converge, there is rarely a moment in bw progaming where i see a scene as menacing as this
a little long, but this is the greatest game i've ever seen. Games like this are why I love brood war
highlights if you don't want to watch the whole thing
defense at 10:00 harass and counter at 18:30 Battle at 26:00 with simultaneous storm drop Battle at 28:20 & incredible defense of 6:00 base soon afterwards plus the iconic image of jaedong dripping sweat after the game
Holy crap. Thanks for linking that game, I can't believe I'd never seen it before. It was absolutely fucking amazing.
there is no way an english caster can make that more exciting
on this i beg to differ in case no one else mentioned this have you heard of Klazart? hes the best english caster ive ever heard from broodwar.(not including tasteless and super dan) klazart is who i first started watching sc vods. he who got me into watching sc bw.
i can simply say this and be 100% right. every current progamer wishes sc2 was just a pure revamp of sc1 graphics. by that i mean nothing has changed, and only the graphics got updated to attrack new crowds. maybe keep some of the new mechanics, MBS, automine, but all in all. if the game had just been updated graphically i think everyone would be more satisfied, especially nony.
As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
a little long, but this is the greatest game i've ever seen. Games like this are why I love brood war
highlights if you don't want to watch the whole thing
defense at 10:00 harass and counter at 18:30 Battle at 26:00 with simultaneous storm drop Battle at 28:20 & incredible defense of 6:00 base soon afterwards plus the iconic image of jaedong dripping sweat after the game
I remember watching this game live.. If match point had more bases JD woulda pulled a win.. He just ran out of minerals Sad to see him lose after such an epic game.. And yeah.. dat sweat!
Hi imjorman, as a beginner you definitely want to watch some vods with english commentary first to get a rough feel for the game. Klazartsc is really entertaining and he's what got me into bw, so I highly recommmend you watch it. Heres a series between Flash and Calm
If you want analytical casting, go watch day9 vods. He did quite a few of them back in the day. The vods are at the last few pages http://blip.tv/day9tv#!page=77
And as some users pointed out earlier you can go to gomtv for their BW leagues, casted by tasteless. http://www.gomtv.net/league/index.gom Have fun!
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
Yes, you won't miss it. When proleague/star league games are on air, you can count on several streamers ready to fulfill your wishes. Tbh, you can't miss it.
I'm really enjoying this thread but genuinely speaking, I don't think anyone can convey the passion and ardor one has for brood war by simply typing words and linking VODS. To me, the spirit of brood war is too personal and stems from your own incessant and perseverance to following the scene throughout its many years of tears, joy, and explosions of emotion. I cannot express how much love I have for BW and I don't think anyone can, which is why it pains me that we can't transfer that same incredible feeling that resulted from a slow maturation and aging of an unlikely legend of a game.
I guess what I want to say is, this thread...it's like a small flashback and a hint of a taste of brood war. The true adoration comes to you by sticking with it and I am happy that you're loving brood war. To be trite, basically, I hope you're here to stay.
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
Yes, you won't miss it. When proleague/star league games are on air, you can count on several streamers ready to fulfill your wishes. Tbh, you can't miss it.
I'm really enjoying this thread but genuinely speaking, I don't think anyone can convey the passion and ardor one has for brood war by simply typing words and linking VODS. To me, the spirit of brood war is too personal and stems from your own incessant and perseverance to following the scene throughout its many years of tears, joy, and explosions of emotion. I cannot express how much love I have for BW and I don't think anyone can, which is why it pains me that we can't transfer that same incredible feeling that resulted from a slow maturation and aging of an unlikely legend of a game.
I guess what I want to say is, this thread...it's like a small flashback and a hint of a taste of brood war. The true adoration comes to you by sticking with it and I am happy that you're loving brood war. To be trite, basically, I hope you're here to stay.
Quite the passionate post, friend. I do, as well, hope I'm here to stay.
Now because I must ask, tell me about this scandal that plagued Broodwar...
After seeing all of these amazing VODs being posted I had to scrape to think of these.
Check out Garimto's amazing Zealot vs Zealot micro! (Early days of foreigners ~= Koreans) + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTURMfUH7t8 "Watch how he slowly evens up the game by pure micro skills.
Garimto won that game."
by.FlaSh's major rise to power (first major victory) in the GOMTV star invitational. (Stork was actually favored in this series, easily.) You can actually see FlaSh's character change from "average BW pro" to "future bonjwa" in this tournament, but you'd have to watch his whole bracket to see what I'm talking about. If you want to see that I suggest watching each video in its entirety and not just the games themselves. Here's game 1 from the finals. + Show Spoiler +
Context: SWL 2011 Finals, KT vs SKT. SKT is up 3-1 and Flash has been sent out. Bisu and Fantasy are both slumping hard, not to mention BeSt and Hyuk (lol) and even though SKT is up 3-1, the situation felt pretty grim for SKT fans. Bisu was recently knocked out of a starleague by Flash cheese. Watch as Bisu punishes Flash's greedy rax expand with a simple gateway expand. You can see Fantasy on the sidelines looking quite happy that he won't have to play Flash midway through Bisu's initial aggression.
I think before you can appreciate any of these vods, you have to play the game a bit. Go online and lose a few dozen 1v1s. It's the only way to get any semblance of understanding.
Edit: That is, play some games on iccup, not battle.net
Man, nothing gives me bigger nerd chills than watching old MSL/OSL intro videos.
Also, definitely watch the GOM classics season 1-3. That's where I started watching BW and even if you don't like BW it's worth it for the solo tasteless cast. http://www.gomtv.net/classic/
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
Yes, you won't miss it. When proleague/star league games are on air, you can count on several streamers ready to fulfill your wishes. Tbh, you can't miss it.
I'm really enjoying this thread but genuinely speaking, I don't think anyone can convey the passion and ardor one has for brood war by simply typing words and linking VODS. To me, the spirit of brood war is too personal and stems from your own incessant and perseverance to following the scene throughout its many years of tears, joy, and explosions of emotion. I cannot express how much love I have for BW and I don't think anyone can, which is why it pains me that we can't transfer that same incredible feeling that resulted from a slow maturation and aging of an unlikely legend of a game.
I guess what I want to say is, this thread...it's like a small flashback and a hint of a taste of brood war. The true adoration comes to you by sticking with it and I am happy that you're loving brood war. To be trite, basically, I hope you're here to stay.
Quite the passionate post, friend. I do, as well, hope I'm here to stay.
Now because I must ask, tell me about this scandal that plagued Broodwar...
One of my first Flash games was the Flash vs Mind game on Othello. Didn't really get how good flash was at the time until I saw a korean analysis of the game. I think the build Mind used in this game had a practice win rate of 100% or something very very close to that.
Just go through every English commentary ever posted by Klazart. That man will force you to love BW..... The excitement and entertainment are just so infectious. But hey.... That's BW for you. It's nice to see a SC2 fan come around and ask about why we defend BW so vehemently. Good on you <3
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
Yes, you won't miss it. When proleague/star league games are on air, you can count on several streamers ready to fulfill your wishes. Tbh, you can't miss it.
I'm really enjoying this thread but genuinely speaking, I don't think anyone can convey the passion and ardor one has for brood war by simply typing words and linking VODS. To me, the spirit of brood war is too personal and stems from your own incessant and perseverance to following the scene throughout its many years of tears, joy, and explosions of emotion. I cannot express how much love I have for BW and I don't think anyone can, which is why it pains me that we can't transfer that same incredible feeling that resulted from a slow maturation and aging of an unlikely legend of a game.
I guess what I want to say is, this thread...it's like a small flashback and a hint of a taste of brood war. The true adoration comes to you by sticking with it and I am happy that you're loving brood war. To be trite, basically, I hope you're here to stay.
The feelings you are trying to express in this post are so easy to relate to. I too hope you're here to stay. Bring friends. It's not possible to hate this stuff.
Used to totally hate Bisu when I first started watching back when protoss was OP in 2008. Then he kind of disapeared in 2009 along with every other protoss, and then totally went into a slump in 2010. A lot of people thought he was hopeless, but it was games like this that changed me into a fan of his and proved them wrong.
Used to totally hate Bisu when I first started watching back when protoss was OP in 2008. Then he kind of disapeared in 2009 along with every other protoss, and then totally went into a slump in 2010. A lot of people thought he was hopeless, but it was games like this that changed me into a fan of his and proved them wrong.
Disappeared in 2009? 2009 was when he had one of his highest winrates ever (73% overall). True, he didn't win any individual leagues, but 2009 was the year the SKT won proleague, so it's not like he was hiding in a cave somewhere.
Also, thanks for the links to Day[9]'s BW videos. He had so much passion and knowledge about the game, it's a pleasure to listen to his analysis and enthusiasm.
One Jaedong/Flash/Bisu all enter SC2 you'll understand why we appreciate BW so much. They're going to elevate that game to another level, and nobody will be able to catch up.
Seriously, got to play first before watching vods. You don't need to be good. At least either play the AI a few times or perhaps the campaign if you enjoy playing campaigns. It's hard to appreciate what you see onscreen unless you know just how hard it is to do them.
On October 29 2011 15:42 thunk wrote: One Jaedong/Flash/Bisu all enter SC2 you'll understand why we appreciate BW so much. They're going to elevate that game to another level, and nobody will be able to catch up.
MVP got one game off of Flash and he's winning golds in the GOMTV cups. ForGG is gonna have that place on their knees
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
Yes, you won't miss it. When proleague/star league games are on air, you can count on several streamers ready to fulfill your wishes. Tbh, you can't miss it.
I'm really enjoying this thread but genuinely speaking, I don't think anyone can convey the passion and ardor one has for brood war by simply typing words and linking VODS. To me, the spirit of brood war is too personal and stems from your own incessant and perseverance to following the scene throughout its many years of tears, joy, and explosions of emotion. I cannot express how much love I have for BW and I don't think anyone can, which is why it pains me that we can't transfer that same incredible feeling that resulted from a slow maturation and aging of an unlikely legend of a game.
I guess what I want to say is, this thread...it's like a small flashback and a hint of a taste of brood war. The true adoration comes to you by sticking with it and I am happy that you're loving brood war. To be trite, basically, I hope you're here to stay.
Quite the passionate post, friend. I do, as well, hope I'm here to stay.
Now because I must ask, tell me about this scandal that plagued Broodwar...
That's quiet easy to explain. If you know, or don't know. BW has Bonjwas, which are players whom dominated soo hard, they practically own the scene. Boxer, iloveoov, Nada and recently Flash (depending on who you ask.) Their were another player named Savior whom were among that group. Only Zerg player in a Terran dominated list. Savior was loved a long time ago, than, out of the blue, a player named Bisu, came and 3-0ed him. During a time where Savior was considered almost unbeatable. After this, Savior basically slumped and disappeared.
Than, several years after, Savior said he finally got over his mental game and is back to the scene. However, before he was able to really prove it, a rumor started going about Match Fixing. It caught the eye of Kespa, and they started to investigate it. After a little time has passed, Savior's name popped into the Match Fixing scandal, along with several others who went with it. It was proven and basically, all the players involved were Black Listed from BW forever (including Savior). All of his records were basically blacked out.
That wasn't too long ago, it was pretty hurting to hear and find out to be honest.
But I would like to say though, to the SC2 people whom are actually serious about trying to learn with an open mind. Thank you. It means quiet a lot to a lot of us.
On October 29 2011 01:57 imjorman wrote: edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
Now do you understand why I don't want progress bars and why I want passionate, yelling, narrative casting instead of analytical, predictive casting?
The Korean casters are analytical and predictive. Every time I watch a subtitled cast I learn things I'd never even thought about. Why the player is pushing out now instead of any other time. What specific thing the player is scouting for --- he's not just "scouting", he's looking for something specific, right now. As the game observer, you see exactly what's there and forget about what *could* be there, in the fog of war; and commentators help you get inside the progamers' heads and recreate the strategic thinking. Actually I often see Korean commentators ignoring the little stuff (OH NO HE LOST TWO MARINES SLOPPILY TO LURKERS) to carry on making a strategical point. The Korean commentators are great at analysis and prediction, they're usually spot on.
Basically they spend most of the time explaining what MAKES the current game so exciting, and the rest of the time hollering their heads off. It's just great.
Anyone who speaks Korean can correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that the Korean casters go way beyond "yelling narrative casting." That's exactly what I cannot stand about most English-speaking youtube commentators.
On October 29 2011 12:29 imjorman wrote: As I'm watching this, a switch flipped in my head. It's kinda like learning a new language and you hear how all the words relate back to English and then you understand where the English language comes from.
Similarly, as I'm watching these, I understand where SC2 comes from and why a lot of things that "are cool" are cool.
I'm watching my history here :D
please note that BW does still exist in the present and that the next season of Proleague will still be majorly BW.
I wasn't claiming it was dead, sorry I understand that my language reflects that, but I'm well aware that this is something that is still alive and well.
Will the Proleague by on the "on air" side bar of TL? If so, I really want to watch it, or if not, where can I find it/read info about it? (English preferably)
Yes, you won't miss it. When proleague/star league games are on air, you can count on several streamers ready to fulfill your wishes. Tbh, you can't miss it.
I'm really enjoying this thread but genuinely speaking, I don't think anyone can convey the passion and ardor one has for brood war by simply typing words and linking VODS. To me, the spirit of brood war is too personal and stems from your own incessant and perseverance to following the scene throughout its many years of tears, joy, and explosions of emotion. I cannot express how much love I have for BW and I don't think anyone can, which is why it pains me that we can't transfer that same incredible feeling that resulted from a slow maturation and aging of an unlikely legend of a game.
I guess what I want to say is, this thread...it's like a small flashback and a hint of a taste of brood war. The true adoration comes to you by sticking with it and I am happy that you're loving brood war. To be trite, basically, I hope you're here to stay.
Quite the passionate post, friend. I do, as well, hope I'm here to stay.
Now because I must ask, tell me about this scandal that plagued Broodwar...
Some players were profiting through illegal gambling; they'd lose official matches on purpose, and would either make money by betting on themselves to lose, or were being paid off by higher-ups staking money on them losing (not sure which).
It was illegal and it undermined the competition (who would sponsor a tournament where people lose on purpose?), so about 10 players got life bans, some of them very high-profile: Savior, Luxury, Yarnc, Hwasin, Upmagic, to name the most important. It was a pretty serious blow to Korean BW.
Edit: The real tragedy is that these kids were in way over their heads. The brokers turned a profit of 140 million won, while the players made a couple million each, or sometimes didn't get paid. (One million Korean won is about 900 U.S. dollars or 640 euros.) They were just being manipulated.
Edit2: And this is way off topic so we probably shouldn't be talking about it more here. Just wanted to answer that question.
On October 29 2011 01:57 imjorman wrote: edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
Now do you understand why I don't want progress bars and why I want passionate, yelling, narrative casting instead of analytical, predictive casting?
The Korean casters are analytical and predictive. Every time I watch a subtitled cast I learn things I'd never even thought about. Why the player is pushing out now instead of any other time. What specific thing the player is scouting for --- he's not just "scouting", he's looking for something specific, right now. As the game observer, you see exactly what's there and forget about what *could* be there, in the fog of war; and commentators help you get inside the progamers' heads and recreate the strategic thinking. Actually I often see Korean commentators ignoring the little stuff (OH NO HE LOST TWO MARINES SLOPPILY TO LURKERS) to carry on making a strategical point. The Korean commentators are great at analysis and prediction, they're usually spot on.
Basically they spend most of the time explaining what MAKES the current game so exciting, and the rest of the time hollering their heads off. It's just great.
Anyone who speaks Korean can correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that the Korean casters go way beyond "yelling narrative casting." That's exactly what I cannot stand about most English-speaking youtube commentators.
This is a fantastic post and I really hope one day English SC2 casts will be of the same type and quality. I think a big reason why Koreans learned BW faster than foreigners is because they are exposed to such quality commentary on a daily basis.
Anyway, this game was amazing (commentated by Klazart <3):
^^ SaviOr (Z) vs Iris (T); two CJ Entus teammates duking it out.
Iris was known for his very aggressive, in-your-face style (he later changed his name to Berserker).
SaviOr the Maestro was known for being a Bonjwa and for his defensive swarm style, army movement, tactics and strategies (reading/manipulating the game flow).
This game was the last (they were 2-2) in the OSL semifinals, so everything was on the line. Very intense game. + Show Spoiler [OSL results] +
another thing is the commentators, they are absolute world-class in terms of bringing the game closer to the fans. (there are more of the mbcgame ones, but i can't find them )
A good place to start is the Gom archives http://www.gomtv.net/gsi/vod/because they have English commentary from Tasteless. Flash has some incredible comebacks in his matches (see vs Saviour and Stork)
On October 29 2011 20:42 konadora wrote: another thing is the commentators, they are absolute world-class in terms of bringing the game closer to the fans. (there are more of the mbcgame ones, but i can't find them )
This VOD made me a BoxeR fan. You have never watch anything like this. Seriously.
Boxer vs Hiya 2007 Proleague. In time when boxer was shadow of his past, but he came out with brilliant strategy that nobody can think of (even commentators was confused).
Nooooo not this lol. Im surprised it took this long to get posted given how many people love that game but it always makes me a bit sad to see Bisu lose to that stuff
As a person who only really came into Starcraft with SC2 this thread is beyond awesome. I played the campaign years ago so i know how hard it is to keep track of everything. Just skimming through these and i am truly blown away, really thanks a lot.
I'm surprised nobody has posted this yet. This is why we love BW
Glad to see OP starts to understand us. Now he just has to play the game. While BW is already amazing in itself, one can only fully appreciate progamers' m&m vs lurker once he's tried it himself and failed miserably with twice as many units. Or Jangbi storms. Everytime I play PvT I imagine my high templars covering the battlefield with a sweet thunder carpet but they all end up being shot before they cast the single storm. + Show Spoiler +
Still hard to believe people enjoy watching a game with spells being smart-casted
So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
This thread brings a smile to my face . I wish more SC2 fans were as willing to embrace BW as you. Watching JangBi vs Fantasy recent finals was pretty inspirational for BW fans because of how toss rarely seems to claim gold nowadays. + Show Spoiler +
I watched last night Jaedong vs Flash in MSL when Flash 3-0'd him...pretty exciting, the disappointment from Jaedong and the excitement from Flash was just unreal.
On October 30 2011 01:31 imjorman wrote: So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
On October 30 2011 01:31 imjorman wrote: So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
On October 30 2011 01:31 imjorman wrote: So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
On October 30 2011 01:52 imjorman wrote: I watched last night Jaedong vs Flash in MSL when Flash 3-0'd him...pretty exciting, the disappointment from Jaedong and the excitement from Flash was just unreal.
Yeah, well, personally JD was behind in the mind games in every game, not really one of my favorites series.
Anyways, i want to introduce you, one of the must disgustings things to see: Turtle Terran. You never watched turtle terran till you watch Flash do it.
(WARNING: disgusting video below, could enrage zerg viewers, timestamped at 18:00)
On October 30 2011 01:31 imjorman wrote: So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
On October 30 2011 01:31 imjorman wrote: So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
Only a few months ago i watched a savior fpvod against bisu in one of the finals. I remember people here saying that was when bisu changed PvZ.
All i remember was being blown away at everything. Their plays are just so damn crisp. Watched a ton more after that haha and sometimes watch the oslmsl finals etc
On October 30 2011 01:31 imjorman wrote: So today I'm gonna have to do some homework, but after I get a little headway on this paper I have to have done soon, I'm gonna be playing a lot of BW...
Just played a few games as T against Z and holy wtf lurkers suck.
Watching some vods now.
You have to burrow them.
Sorry, I was playing as Terran. I think I'm gonna go T.
But like how do you learn the maps? Is it just playing a bunch?
I f you mean just learning their layout., juste play against the computer, or single player+black sheep wall (<3 cheatcodes^^). There also is a preview in multiplayer games.
I am a SC2 player but I am really jealous of BW guys .... I wish I had played BW for 10 or so years while I was waiting for another good Socom after 2.
I refuse to play BW .... not because I don't want to but I'm kind of afraid SC2 wont be fun anymore after I play BW. Maybe this is kind of stupid but yeah.
Right now I do watch a good bit of BW VoDs and I am playing the campaign.
This VOD made me a BoxeR fan. You have never watch anything like this. Seriously.
Boxer vs Hiya 2007 Proleague. In time when boxer was shadow of his past, but he came out with brilliant strategy that nobody can think of (even commentators was confused).
This VOD made me a BoxeR fan. You have never watch anything like this. Seriously.
Boxer vs Hiya 2007 Proleague. In time when boxer was shadow of his past, but he came out with brilliant strategy that nobody can think of (even commentators was confused).
Yea just posting here to say this thread is one of the best threads I've ever seen; it really shows what BW is about in all its dimensions.
Like any non narrow-minded sc2 fan who sees this will shit bricks (which is what happened to me some months ago).
You guys rock.
Also, to contribute somehow:
a game where outside the box strategy beats mechanical prowess,
and
Let me introduce you to the bravest man ever known by BW: KWANRO
Ever heard that boring motto some GSL caster loves to spread which goes by "When you get ahead, get more ahead!"? Well, let me tell you: that's bullshit. What do real men when they get cheesed?
Acutally this thread is good even for me, havent seen all of the videos posted, and most of them i just want to se again.
What i find though, and what is amazing about BW, is not only the winners but also the losers. After an OSL finals or a big tournament, i always feel sorry about the loser. Even though the player that i really hate loses. Its heart breaking to see the korean kids crying, and you could really see why. Second place is really the first loser, and they have put down So much time in practicing for the series all the way up to the finals. What i want to say is that it is really for real. They are playing their hearts out in a way i havent seen before in any other E-sports. This really comes to me especially when i watch July v Best from Baccus OSL 2008. + Show Spoiler +
Oh my god tushin is one of my absolute favorite players of all time but i cry when i watch best after that finals, especially since i know that he never won anything major thoroughout his career. To sided really, first two games he cheeses his way to victory and in the third game best is just too damn scared to go on the offensive. Doesnt even drop his reavers in like 15 min even though he has got 10 corsair. The game within the game / momentum is sooo huge, and its very apparent in the series
Just the emotions of the game is so awesome. Might take a couple of games before you get into it though. If you are a new player - ttry to keep yourself as spoiler free as posibile to be able to experience as many games in an osl/msl as possible without knowing the winner!
i could never imagine it happening to myself but i screamed like a korean girl in the bisu vs effort match. + Show Spoiler +
at the shuttle dodge towards the end
On October 30 2011 07:53 jlim wrote: Yea just posting here to say this thread is one of the best threads I've ever seen; it really shows what BW is about in all its dimensions.
Like any non narrow-minded sc2 fan who sees this will shit bricks (which is what happened to me some months ago).
Let me introduce you to the bravest man ever known by BW: KWANRO
Ever heard that boring motto some GSL caster loves to spread which goes by "When you get ahead, get more ahead!"? Well, let me tell you: that's bullshit. What do real men when they get cheesed?
On October 30 2011 07:08 ToguRo wrote: I am a SC2 player but I am really jealous of BW guys .... I wish I had played BW for 10 or so years while I was waiting for another good Socom after 2.
I refuse to play BW .... not because I don't want to but I'm kind of afraid SC2 wont be fun anymore after I play BW. Maybe this is kind of stupid but yeah.
Right now I do watch a good bit of BW VoDs and I am playing the campaign.
Your fears are well founded. This is exactly what happened to me. Now every so often i try to get back into sc2 and i just think, "why did i like this game again?"
On October 30 2011 07:53 jlim wrote: Yea just posting here to say this thread is one of the best threads I've ever seen; it really shows what BW is about in all its dimensions.
Like any non narrow-minded sc2 fan who sees this will shit bricks (which is what happened to me some months ago).
Let me introduce you to the bravest man ever known by BW: KWANRO
Ever heard that boring motto some GSL caster loves to spread which goes by "When you get ahead, get more ahead!"? Well, let me tell you: that's bullshit. What do real men when they get cheesed?
i could never imagine it happening to myself but i screamed like a korean girl in the bisu vs effort match. + Show Spoiler +
at the shuttle dodge towards the end
also shat bricks in second game
Thank you man, but I think you're a bit confused. The first game in my post is bisu vs great (also a zvp in medusa iirc). The game you're referring to is most likely this one:
On October 30 2011 08:06 soujiro_ wrote: bisu vs effort on medusa was awesome + Show Spoiler +
On October 30 2011 07:53 jlim wrote: Yea just posting here to say this thread is one of the best threads I've ever seen; it really shows what BW is about in all its dimensions.
Like any non narrow-minded sc2 fan who sees this will shit bricks (which is what happened to me some months ago).
Let me introduce you to the bravest man ever known by BW: KWANRO
Ever heard that boring motto some GSL caster loves to spread which goes by "When you get ahead, get more ahead!"? Well, let me tell you: that's bullshit. What do real men when they get cheesed?
i could never imagine it happening to myself but i screamed like a korean girl in the bisu vs effort match. + Show Spoiler +
at the shuttle dodge towards the end
also shat bricks in second game
Thank you man, but I think you're a bit confused. The first game in my post is bisu vs great (also a zvp in medusa iirc). The game you're referring to is most likely this one:
This VOD made me a BoxeR fan. You have never watch anything like this. Seriously.
Boxer vs Hiya 2007 Proleague. In time when boxer was shadow of his past, but he came out with brilliant strategy that nobody can think of (even commentators was confused).
This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
On October 30 2011 10:43 NukeTheStars wrote: This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
Hey, thanks for showing up. You reminded me of one of the most beautiful elements of BW progaming: televised in-game BM (no chat).
And you did so because you're the author of this fine piece of art:
I understand why BoxeR was so awesome at BW (I saw a montage of some of his most impressive games, and also saw his game against Hiya), but I don't understand why he isn't as great in SC2. He is still very creative, but not groundbreaking. Is this because SC2 is still new?
On October 30 2011 12:04 edc wrote: I understand why BoxeR was so awesome at BW (I saw a montage of some of his most impressive games, and also saw his game against Hiya), but I don't understand why he isn't as great in SC2. He is still very creative, but not groundbreaking. Is this because SC2 is still new?
No boxer was doing crazy shit when BW was a year or so old too. But during that time, he was miles ahead in skill of other people too. Or It may simply be that sc2 doesnt allow him the opportunity to do crazy stuff.
FACT: in 12 years of BW , no player has been able to dominate more than 4 years. (aprox.)
Call it outdated gamestyle, lost of motivation, mind burning, we cant never know for sure. but it happens to everybody. and boxer domination time was between 1999 and 2003 (aprox), so for someone that dominated like 8 years ago been "good" at current SC2 is pretty good enough actually.
We never expected July,Nada,Boxer, to win anything really, their prime was long time ago, but if they do it, of course we are gonna be happy for them.
On a side note, heh, maybe i just crushed some of your dreams but yes, the same is gonna happen to Idra,MVP, and MC, Idra has already some years in the BW scene, and i think he in his prime right know, i would say he has 2 more years before he goes down. History teach us that.
On October 30 2011 12:04 edc wrote: I understand why BoxeR was so awesome at BW (I saw a montage of some of his most impressive games, and also saw his game against Hiya), but I don't understand why he isn't as great in SC2. He is still very creative, but not groundbreaking. Is this because SC2 is still new?
No boxer was doing crazy shit when BW was a year or so old too. But during that time, he was miles ahead in skill of other people too. Or It may simply be that sc2 doesnt allow him the opportunity to do crazy stuff.
Thanks for the answer.
Also, do most players consider BW to be a perfectly (or almost perfectly) balanced game? What makes it so balanced? For how long was it constantly patched before Blizzard concluded that they couldn't change it anymore, it being so balanced?
On October 30 2011 12:04 edc wrote: I understand why BoxeR was so awesome at BW (I saw a montage of some of his most impressive games, and also saw his game against Hiya), but I don't understand why he isn't as great in SC2. He is still very creative, but not groundbreaking. Is this because SC2 is still new?
No boxer was doing crazy shit when BW was a year or so old too. But during that time, he was miles ahead in skill of other people too. Or It may simply be that sc2 doesnt allow him the opportunity to do crazy stuff.
Thanks for the answer.
Also, do most players consider BW to be a perfectly (or almost perfectly) balanced game? What makes it so balanced? For how long was it constantly patched before Blizzard concluded that they couldn't change it anymore, it being so balanced?
yes they do consider it to be perfectly balanced but not just because of patching,but the maps that are made every season that actually balance the game as we see it now.
the last balance patch was in 2001 I think...yeah 2001,after that all patches were just support patches bug fixing and all that stuff.
On October 30 2011 12:04 edc wrote: I understand why BoxeR was so awesome at BW (I saw a montage of some of his most impressive games, and also saw his game against Hiya), but I don't understand why he isn't as great in SC2. He is still very creative, but not groundbreaking. Is this because SC2 is still new?
No boxer was doing crazy shit when BW was a year or so old too. But during that time, he was miles ahead in skill of other people too. Or It may simply be that sc2 doesnt allow him the opportunity to do crazy stuff.
Thanks for the answer.
Also, do most players consider BW to be a perfectly (or almost perfectly) balanced game? What makes it so balanced? For how long was it constantly patched before Blizzard concluded that they couldn't change it anymore, it being so balanced?
The game is not perfectly balanced. Maps can still swing the game wildly in favor of one race or position over another. If you overlook maps, then yes, we consider the game perfectly balanced. What this means is that once the map has been considered, difficulties or losses in the game are all due to your limitation as a player, not an imbalance.
Blizzard stopped balance patching the game in 2005 I think? The only things I can remember them changing is like...the duration of Corsair Disruption Web...I actually don't remember any of it at all lol. They continued patching the game to fix errors, stability, performance, etc. The last patch I can remember came out in 2009 I think.
On October 30 2011 12:16 edc wrote: Also, do most players consider BW to be a perfectly (or almost perfectly) balanced game? What makes it so balanced? For how long was it constantly patched before Blizzard concluded that they couldn't change it anymore, it being so balanced?
Brood War had exactly three balance patches. They made changes in 1.04, 1.05, and 1.08. In each of those patches there was a fairly large list of changes, but in no other patch and at no other time was any balance change made. SC2's constant patching and adjusting is not anything like BW - not saying it's better or worse, but just different.
On October 29 2011 05:54 imjorman wrote: After watching all of these, I'm starting to understand why you guys care. I don't understand the game, but it looks different - and a good different. And holy bejesus is jaedong awesome. Flash videos are really cool; pretty much any video you guys hav been linked are like wtfwtfwtf awesome :D
Wait 'til the next season starts up and you watch games live.
On October 30 2011 12:36 edc wrote: ONE LAST QUESTION and I will stop badgering you veterans with my questions.
Do any of you find the old graphics of BW appealing? I find them very much so . They have an aged yet smooth and beautiful look IMO.
I really don't notice the graphics anymore. BW is BW. The graphics are dated, sure, but unless you actively compare it to another game, it really doesn't matter. I'm waaay past comparing BW to other games.
The biggest advantage BW graphics have is that everything is very clear and easily visible while still being fully immersive. You never feel like you're not looking at what the game is showing you. You always see a tank shooting at a goon, a ling running towards a marine, etc. It never feels like you're seeing a pixel blob look at something kind of like a tank. That the graphics aren't questionable in that sense is all that really matters as far as their actual look goes.
On October 30 2011 12:36 edc wrote: ONE LAST QUESTION and I will stop badgering you veterans with my questions.
Do any of you find the old graphics of BW appealing? I find them very much so . They have an aged yet smooth and beautiful look IMO.
BW graphics, even in 2011, are amazing because they are simple and fit in an rts. 3D graphics (and the over-lightning everywhere) in an rts just feel wrong but that's obviously just my opinion.
The only thing I would like to see, related to graphics, in BW would be an increased resolution.
On October 30 2011 12:04 edc wrote: I understand why BoxeR was so awesome at BW (I saw a montage of some of his most impressive games, and also saw his game against Hiya), but I don't understand why he isn't as great in SC2. He is still very creative, but not groundbreaking. Is this because SC2 is still new?
i have to say that it is because right from the start, every players' mechanics are too advanced. boxer, with above-average mechanics and his crazy strategies when the game was first released, allowed him to be ahead of everyone else. but when it reached 2004-ish, boxer started to win much much less. by then, progamers have started to be more solid with their mechanics. they had 4 years to see all the different types of cheeses that boxer pulled off, and understood how to counter them. boxer couldn't keep up with the mechanics to play at their level consistently, thus faltering off into nothing more than a icon in the progaming industry. he did show occasional macro prowess, such as vs Magma on Neo Requiem, vs Flash on Python, or vs Calm on Longinus. but he couldn't keep it up on a consistent level, and you know what happens afterwards.
fast forward to his SC2 career. macro and mechanics are easier now, yes. but in SC2, it's just like as though he's been thrown back into post-2004. he has a hard time keeping up, cheeses won't work unless it's beautifully tailored (eg: Reality vs Jaedong on Monte Cristo, Boxer vs Hiya on Blue Storm, Flash vs Bisu on Monty Hall) because the rest of the player pool are so ahead in mechanics. even if boxer manages to pull off some crazy shit in SC2, he can't keep that up forever and cheese every single game. it's sad to admit this, but boxer will never become anything big in SC2.
The gamma for the game is perfect. All the maps are brightly lit and such. There's never some part of the game where it's hard to see a certain unit or so. Always highly visible to the eye.
Just stumbled upon this thread and it made my fucking day. Thanks to all of you who posted the Vods; those were things I absolutely needed to see. Everyone who plays SC2 needs to see this stuff.
On October 30 2011 10:43 NukeTheStars wrote: This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
kipsate mentioned early on about how nice it is to watch streams of units flow in. two games come into my mind:
1) JulyZerg (yes, that julyzerg) vs BeSt
watch this entire game. the endless stream of units, the crazy storms, the insane macro by both players, even the surprise everyone felt somewhere in the middle of the game when the observer switched screen, only for us to see over a dozen ultralisks and commentators going "whoa... WHOA..." and the audience screaming and gasping in the background... it feels so different from seeing SC2 late game, even though i really enjoyed games like Nestea vs MVP on that 4 player map where MVP just destroyed nestea with defense and ghosts' snipe ability.
I played a little bit of SC1 vanilla in 1998. I was young, and I was terrible, and I only completed the Terran campaign. I loved the lore, the characters, but the game was difficult and I just wasn't any good at real time strategy games.
I didn't find out about the professional BW scene until around the time people started talking about the StarCraft 2 beta. I had never watched a professional BW game until I started watching beta SC2 matches on youtube.
I have a lot of respect for Brood War and infinite respect for the players who have created this sport. Even if I cannot understand some of the things I see in Brood War videos, it still feels more impressive than anything in SC2 simply because I remember how damn difficult StarCraft was. Brood War feels like the better game, the more difficult game, and sometimes I think everyone would be happier if SC2 was simply an updated version of Brood War with improved pathfinding, UI and graphics.
For those of you that have been on Team Liquid for years, I can imagine how you feel. It must feel like you see nothing but ignorance and disrespect regarding a game and a culture you have loved for a long time. With SC2 has brought a ton of idiots who can't be bothered to respect Brood War or even the commandments of Team Liquid, and that can only deepen the resentment you may already feel.
I know a lot of people who are sticking to Brood War gave SC2 a chance in beta or at release. The mechanics are different and the game felt terrible until things started to be figured out. If you watched professional SC2 in the beginning, all you saw were one base builds and two deathballs smashing into each other until one player loses his army and the game. Honestly, there's still a lot of things that aren't understood about the game - but it's getting better and the game is getting more interesting to spectate.
You don't have to give up Brood War, and anyone saying you need to can go fuck themselves. If Brood War pros really are coming to StarCraft 2, next year might be amazing.
I love both BW and SC2 even though I don't watch Brood War. I hope that everyone one day can do the same.
On October 30 2011 10:43 NukeTheStars wrote: This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
OMG its nuke! This guy is a hero for BW. If you want some english commentary of the OSL games look no further than his channel on youtube, which is probably one of the last "big" english BW channels that are still active on youtube.
On October 30 2011 10:43 NukeTheStars wrote: This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
OMG its nuke! This guy is a hero for BW. If you want some english commentary of the OSL games look no further than his channel on youtube, which is probably one of the last "big" english BW channels that are still active on youtube.
Agreed, definitely. A huge reason why I came to enjoy BW games so much were Nuke's commentary and all those fantastic hype videos. He's smart and extremely entertaining. Check out his videos for sure. Keep fighting the good fight, Nuke. Spread that BW love :D <3
BW feels so different from SC2. I kinda played it wayyyyy back then , and now i forgot most of the thing already. all i knew was making BCs, lol. i think BW graphic really is out of date, the visual appealing could use some work. i play sc2 exclusively, in sc2 because units are so easy to control, and you can select the entire army at once, because of that every big battle ends in about 10~20 sec. however, in BW, the battle seem to lasts longer and two armies can't really a move into each other. Battles between two pros are also very methodological and fun to watch. i hope they would introduce this type of play in Hots but the new units just steer sc2 away from BW even more so. i think i understand why many BW wouldn't want to switch to sc2, cuz it doesn't resemble BW at all.
Let me introduce you to the bravest man ever known by BW: KWANRO
Ever heard that boring motto some GSL caster loves to spread which goes by "When you get ahead, get more ahead!"? Well, let me tell you: that's bullshit. What do real men when they get cheesed?
By invoking the name of Kwanro, I feel obligated to give the link to the <fanfare> Kwanflow Chart.
I also recommend watching the "10 Years Star Age" series that MBC game made a few years ago. It is really long but worth the time invested (and you don't need to watch the whole thing at once.) It shows a lot of the history of BW and gives you a lot of fun games to watch! (You may have to ask around about particular games; some of the games they show are pretty old.) Here is the link to the first part of the first episode (each is at least three hours long and there are 5 episodes.) All of them can be found on the nevake Youtube account...along with casted VODs of the first two TSLs and a LOT of other VODs.
Let me introduce you to the bravest man ever known by BW: KWANRO
Ever heard that boring motto some GSL caster loves to spread which goes by "When you get ahead, get more ahead!"? Well, let me tell you: that's bullshit. What do real men when they get cheesed?
By invoking the name of Kwanro, I feel obligated to give the link to the <fanfare> Kwanflow Chart.
I also recommend watching the "10 Years Star Age" series that MBC game made a few years ago. It is really long but worth the time invested (and you don't need to watch the whole thing at once.) It shows a lot of the history of BW and gives you a lot of fun games to watch! (You may have to ask around about particular games; some of the games they show are pretty old.) Here is the link to the first part of the first episode (each is at least three hours long and there are 5 episodes.) All of them can be found on the nevake Youtube account...along with casted VODs of the first two TSLs and a LOT of other VODs.
On October 30 2011 17:18 HellionDrop wrote: BW feels so different from SC2. I kinda played it wayyyyy back then , and now i forgot most of the thing already. all i knew was making BCs, lol. i think BW graphic really is out of date, the visual appealing could use some work. i play sc2 exclusively, in sc2 because units are so easy to control, and you can select the entire army at once, because of that every big battle ends in about 10~20 sec. however, in BW, the battle seem to lasts longer and two armies can't really a move into each other. Battles between two pros are also very methodological and fun to watch. i hope they would introduce this type of play in Hots but the new units just steer sc2 away from BW even more so. i think i understand why many BW wouldn't want to switch to sc2, cuz it doesn't resemble BW at all.
I play SC2 exclusively now too for the same reasons you do: the game is just so much easier to play.
I still believe that BW is the superior game by a gargantuan margin, though. I just burned out trying to get better when I couldn't get out of D+ after six months of play, lol.
On October 30 2011 12:36 edc wrote: ONE LAST QUESTION and I will stop badgering you veterans with my questions.
Do any of you find the old graphics of BW appealing? I find them very much so . They have an aged yet smooth and beautiful look IMO.
I dont think anyone at all feels badgered to answer questions about BW haha, its always really nice when people are interested in BW despite the fact that its so 'old'
And i much prefer BWs graphics over sc2s, for two reasons. one is because sudden, jerky kind of micro movements (such as a marine split against lurkers) look better in these graphics imo. The other is that its much easier to tell apart units and properly see the number of units, even with zerg. Though I do prefer flying unit and spell graphics in sc2 (other than dark swarm, fuck that looks so sexy)
On October 30 2011 17:18 HellionDrop wrote: BW feels so different from SC2. I kinda played it wayyyyy back then , and now i forgot most of the thing already. all i knew was making BCs, lol. i think BW graphic really is out of date, the visual appealing could use some work. i play sc2 exclusively, in sc2 because units are so easy to control, and you can select the entire army at once, because of that every big battle ends in about 10~20 sec. however, in BW, the battle seem to lasts longer and two armies can't really a move into each other. Battles between two pros are also very methodological and fun to watch. i hope they would introduce this type of play in Hots but the new units just steer sc2 away from BW even more so. i think i understand why many BW wouldn't want to switch to sc2, cuz it doesn't resemble BW at all.
I play SC2 exclusively now too for the same reasons you do: the game is just so much easier to play.
I still believe that BW is the superior game by a gargantuan margin, though. I just burned out trying to get better when I couldn't get out of D+ after six months of play, lol.
I switched to playing sc2 for exactly that reason, ironically enough my accounts are stuck in gold/plat, whereas i got C- with toss and D+ with zerg on iccup. Quite depressing :/
On October 29 2011 01:57 imjorman wrote: edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
Now do you understand why I don't want progress bars and why I want passionate, yelling, narrative casting instead of analytical, predictive casting?
The Korean casters are analytical and predictive. Every time I watch a subtitled cast I learn things I'd never even thought about. Why the player is pushing out now instead of any other time. What specific thing the player is scouting for --- he's not just "scouting", he's looking for something specific, right now. As the game observer, you see exactly what's there and forget about what *could* be there, in the fog of war; and commentators help you get inside the progamers' heads and recreate the strategic thinking. Actually I often see Korean commentators ignoring the little stuff (OH NO HE LOST TWO MARINES SLOPPILY TO LURKERS) to carry on making a strategical point. The Korean commentators are great at analysis and prediction, they're usually spot on.
Basically they spend most of the time explaining what MAKES the current game so exciting, and the rest of the time hollering their heads off. It's just great.
Anyone who speaks Korean can correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that the Korean casters go way beyond "yelling narrative casting." That's exactly what I cannot stand about most English-speaking youtube commentators.
Not enough love for the strategic positioning and map control oriented TvT matchup which is completely missing in SC2.
By far my favorite mirror in BW with the ultimate test of patience, game sense, and decision making.
I present to you:
1) Bigfile MSL - Bo5 Flash vs Fantasy Series The most epic TvT series of modern time. Watch the whole series if you have 3 hours of spare time. If you just want some taste of positioning strategic RTS, watch game 1. Ultimate showcase of both player's ability beyond their limits.+ Show Spoiler +
And the comeback is absolutely ridiculously surreal!!
2) Shinhank Bank Proleague - ACE vs STX Ace match FBH vs Bogus Hugely underrated game because it is just a regular Proleague Ace match, but IMO it is the best TvT under the influence of the modern TvT metagame shift. The perfect balances between positioning/harass, ground-air composition, small and large battles are shown in this beautiful TvT!
show this thread to the SC2 forum, where everyone is basically talking as if flash and bisu have already switched over like it was the most obvious thing to happen in the world.
On October 29 2011 01:57 imjorman wrote: So there is all this talk about how "the new sc2 fans dont understand our history"
Well teach me.
Tell me why this game you all love is so amazing, teach me why flash/bisu/jaedong/boxer were all so amazing.
Show me our favorite vods, tell me why I need to be appreciative. I want to learn.
I've played a few matches on iccup and omg is it hard, and I want to hear about these experiences from a hardened fan.
I want to at least have an understanding of broodwar so I can fully appreciate how far esports has come, so I can understand why a boxer/idea match is amazing, and why flash possibly coming to sc2 is a big deal.
Teach me, as a young sc2 fan who only knows StarCraft as sc2, please teach us all.
edit: Watching these now. OMG OMG OMG OMG is the passion amazing. the casters are awesome, and even though I don't really understand the game, I can kinda begin to understand why you guys care so much.
day9 daily numer 100 + sAviOr
This is one of the most amazing games i have seen... and i watch bw progaming since 2003
On October 30 2011 10:43 NukeTheStars wrote: This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
Regarding this i have a question. Where and how do you watch these leagues live?
nanashin/gtr/kiante/others (eton4170? something like that) will stream it live. It will be on teamliquid sidebar under "ON AIR"; either at 13:00 KST or 18:00 KST (typical times of proleague/matches). There will always be live report threads made in brood war section for the matches. However the broadcast schedule will have to change some for the next season, as the format may change a tiny bit/mbc game will not be broadcasting it anymore come the new year. Historically other streamers have streamed in the past, so sorry for not giving many people credit.
nanashin plays kpop in between sets, so if you like that watch his stream.
edit- also, mokitra, the god of broodwar fandom, has been incredibly fast in uploading every single vod at blazing speeds (same day; sometimes within like 5 hours of completion) to the youtube account nevake. You can go there and find previous vods as well. Torrents will be posted in the "vod tracker" thread in bw general, and vods will be posted in the "small vod thread" in bw general. Both those threads are stickied to the very top of the brood war general forum. He puts it into a spoiler-free format as well ("set 1" "set 2"...."set 7") and some people have made the uploads into playlists. Others will upload vods too, just mokitra has been the guy to go for in a while.
tl;dr-- streamed under "ON AIR" when live; uploaded to the account nevake on youtube very quickly in vod form. Also posted as torrents in vod tracker thread and vods in small vod thread, both in brood war general.
Beyond the stuff you see, its the stuff you dont see. Stork had the best understanding of pvt of any protoss and when the littlest things happen, like he snipes your first tank, he knew exactly how to win right there.
On October 29 2011 02:01 rift wrote: Liquipedia is a good start.
As stupid as this is for me to say, it's actually not. LP tries to keep a neutral tone, so it's often difficult to see the passion people feel for some particular aspect of the scene by reading LP articles.
On October 30 2011 10:43 NukeTheStars wrote: This thread rules. After all the negative, worthless nonsense I've seen on this site recently, seeing a thread full of pure love is awesome.
As some users said, to get the full picture you'll need to watch some Proleague and OSL when they start back up again. Watch live, if you can. It's fuuuuuun. If you can't catch games live, there are always vods.
Regarding this i have a question. Where and how do you watch these leagues live?
In the BW calendar (which is difficult to find / sort through coz of SC2 nowadays) search for when the games are due to be played. Under the "On Air" section on the right hand side of TL.net there will be a list of the current 'live' matches being played. Pick a stream (GTR, nanashin, blindrawr, fold etc) and watch. You can also follow the chat in the threads.
OFC if you're in Korea, just go to the Ongamenet studio... which would be AWESOME! (wish I could go...)
I may be a Starcraft II player now but this games still does emotional shit to me I can't explain. I really wish I could have been apart of the Teamliquid community when I played Broodwar -_-
After seeing some of this vods there are 2 big things that i notice that SC2 seems to lack to big wow moments.
Huge armies that fill an entire screen and more, (not a ball of units like SC2), and lacking of micro, with fast responding units (very high aceleration). Muta micro for instance looks much less impressive in SC2 because they take so long to acelerate compared to BW.
On October 31 2011 06:06 Apolo wrote: After seeing some of this vods there are 2 big things that i notice that SC2 seems to lack to big wow moments.
Huge armies that fill an entire screen and more, (not a ball of units like SC2), and lacking of micro, with fast responding units (very high aceleration). Muta micro for instance looks much less impressive in SC2 because they take so long to acelerate compared to BW.
Mutas don't accelerate that fast in BW either, it's just that you don't let them slow down to begin with, that's the trick.
On October 31 2011 06:06 Apolo wrote: After seeing some of this vods there are 2 big things that i notice that SC2 seems to lack to big wow moments.
Huge armies that fill an entire screen and more, (not a ball of units like SC2), and lacking of micro, with fast responding units (very high aceleration). Muta micro for instance looks much less impressive in SC2 because they take so long to acelerate compared to BW.
Mutas don't accelerate that fast in BW either, it's just that you don't let them slow down to begin with, that's the trick.
The game requires that the units stop to release one of those glaves so they gimped that unit in a different game.
( Even the unit sounds are superb ) This type of harass isn't possible unfortunately. http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/732 This is one is sort of similar, but done by a terran instead of a zerg. ( Commentators = White kids though )
On October 30 2011 17:18 HellionDrop wrote: BW feels so different from SC2. I kinda played it wayyyyy back then , and now i forgot most of the thing already. all i knew was making BCs, lol. i think BW graphic really is out of date, the visual appealing could use some work. i play sc2 exclusively, in sc2 because units are so easy to control, and you can select the entire army at once, because of that every big battle ends in about 10~20 sec. however, in BW, the battle seem to lasts longer and two armies can't really a move into each other. Battles between two pros are also very methodological and fun to watch. i hope they would introduce this type of play in Hots but the new units just steer sc2 away from BW even more so. i think i understand why many BW wouldn't want to switch to sc2, cuz it doesn't resemble BW at all.
I play SC2 exclusively now too for the same reasons you do: the game is just so much easier to play.
I still believe that BW is the superior game by a gargantuan margin, though. I just burned out trying to get better when I couldn't get out of D+ after six months of play, lol.
and that is why pro bw is impressive, despite hours of practice there is no way i could do jangbi storms, jaedong multi muta micro etc etc.
On October 30 2011 17:18 HellionDrop wrote: BW feels so different from SC2. I kinda played it wayyyyy back then , and now i forgot most of the thing already. all i knew was making BCs, lol. i think BW graphic really is out of date, the visual appealing could use some work. i play sc2 exclusively, in sc2 because units are so easy to control, and you can select the entire army at once, because of that every big battle ends in about 10~20 sec. however, in BW, the battle seem to lasts longer and two armies can't really a move into each other. Battles between two pros are also very methodological and fun to watch. i hope they would introduce this type of play in Hots but the new units just steer sc2 away from BW even more so. i think i understand why many BW wouldn't want to switch to sc2, cuz it doesn't resemble BW at all.
I play SC2 exclusively now too for the same reasons you do: the game is just so much easier to play.
I still believe that BW is the superior game by a gargantuan margin, though. I just burned out trying to get better when I couldn't get out of D+ after six months of play, lol.
and that is why pro bw is impressive, despite hours of practice there is no way i could do jangbi storms, jaedong multi muta micro etc etc.
Exactly. I honestly dislike SC2. I hate the deathballs and all that, but I'm addicted to Squad TD right now, and my friends and I play team games a lot.
ok let me tell you about a protoss who wasnt as mechanically gifted as bisu and doesnt have the level of game knowledge as stork, but he produced the sickest games when he was at his best. This may also be something to remind everyone including the bw fans of him since he is somewhat forgotten right now.
Let me introduce to you, my hero, Violet. (I hope you come back this season, I miss you).
Yeah he wasnt the best protoss, but god damn, trust me when I say this, but you feel more "Thrill" in his games than watching the best protosses out there. Let me give you examples.
vs Bisu - a super intense PvP.
vs Hogil - a crazy crazy PvZ on one of my favorite maps, HBR
vs Hyuk - watch it and youll probably scream like a little girl too
vs Hero - contained me? ok ill just make some hts and bust out later
actually just search for his games from 2009 onward. you'll find many good games.
If you want to see some of the most artistic, and simply jaw dropping strategy and tactics- check out savior. He was the best management style zerg of his time, simply unstoppable!
(spoilers) This game should have 1 million views. GGplay maybe wasnt the best zerg of his era, but he played this particular game like he was. His multitasking and crisis managment in this game could be on par with modern top zergs easily. This game has all, plagues, swarms, hold lurkers, flanking, harrasing, drops. The moment when GGplay control like 4 control groups of units and trying to flank iris from all sides... man. Iris was doing all he could, but GGplay deflected almost everything Iris throwed at him.
I still dont know how the fuck did he defend that upper expo, iris killed his nydus and ggplay managed to cast like 5 swarms of irradiated defiler.... :O He also killed like 15-20 vessels in that game. Incredible game, probably the best zvt of all time for me, also given the fact it was OSL finals ace match and 3game comeback from ggpplay makes it one of best SC experience you can get.
On October 31 2011 21:36 bgx wrote: (spoilers) This game should have 1 million views. GGplay maybe wasnt the best zerg of his era, but he played this particular game like he was. His multitasking and crisis managment in this game could be on par with modern top zergs easily. This game has all, plagues, swarms, hold lurkers, flanking, harrasing, drops. The moment when GGplay control like 4 control groups of units and trying to flank iris from all sides... man. Iris was doing all he could, but GGplay deflected almost everything Iris throwed at him.
I still dont know how the fuck did he defend that upper expo, iris killed his nydus and ggplay managed to cast like 5 swarms of irradiated defiler.... :O He also killed like 15-20 vessels in that game. Incredible game, probably the best zvt of all time for me, also given the fact it was OSL finals ace match and 3game comeback from ggpplay makes it one of best SC experience you can get. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5W6aIyBx5U
i blogged about it some time ago, it still is one of the most spinechilling nerdgasmic moment in BW history for me.
On October 31 2011 04:03 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I may be a Starcraft II player now but this games still does emotional shit to me I can't explain. I really wish I could have been apart of the Teamliquid community when I played Broodwar -_-
On October 31 2011 04:03 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I may be a Starcraft II player now but this games still does emotional shit to me I can't explain. I really wish I could have been apart of the Teamliquid community when I played Broodwar -_-
you still can!!!! i was a sc2 player my self, but i start playing and i met elegant. he was so nice and learned me so muchts about the game!!!!, even im not that active on tl i love the bw comutity!!!! so you hop in join sgs and you already got like 30 friends who are almost always on skype!!! iccup isnt everything, you got fish and brain with fish with almost a constand 30-60k players!!!!
so dont think bw is dead already, cuzz it ISNT and it can revive and if sc2 doesnt get harder they come back to bw!!! i promise!!!
I seriously don't get the thought process behind "Well I'd try to enjoy BW, but I'm an SC2 player!"
Well, I sure would LIKE to drink water, but I already breathe air!
Anyhow:
I know people will disagree and bring up Boxer vs Joyo, but as far as I'm concerned this is the best comeback ever. From the direct moment FBH obtains his seemingly insurmountable advantage, Flash plays a perfect game of Starcraft.
I know people will disagree and bring up Boxer vs Joyo, but as far as I'm concerned this is the best comeback ever. From the direct moment FBH obtains his seemingly insurmountable advantage, Flash plays a perfect game of Starcraft.
Seriously, the end of that game is just so badass.
I know people will disagree and bring up Boxer vs Joyo, but as far as I'm concerned this is the best comeback ever. From the direct moment FBH obtains his seemingly insurmountable advantage, Flash plays a perfect game of Starcraft.
Seriously, the end of that game is just so badass.
360 degree surround + scv pull + simultaneous drop. Just nothing like it in SC2 thus far.
Man, the whole game was epic. Seriously, non stop action and jousting for position with constant ferrying of reinforcement with dropships. And even when FBH is surrounded there is still an uncertainty of how the final battle will play out.
What makes that Flash vs FBH comeback even cooler is the fact that it was a game Flash absolutely had to fucking win. It was an ace game that KT had to win, or they would lose all hope of getting to the play-offs. You know, he just wouldn't allow himself to lose it. Might just be my favourite game of all time.
FBH played so incredibly well in the early game. It's something that people don't talk about because it is eclipsed by Flash's insane comeback, but FBH's earlygame TvT micro when it comes to seige tank positioning is crazy.
On November 01 2011 13:14 koreasilver wrote: FBH played so incredibly well in the early game. It's something that people don't talk about because it is eclipsed by Flash's insane comeback, but FBH's earlygame TvT micro when it comes to seige tank positioning is crazy.
FBH, back in the day...holy shit. That man was only held back by a strangely horrendous TvP. His other MU's were near perfect by his hey days standards.
FBH has an uncanny siege tank range vision, like he knows exactly how far and where to position his siege tanks in order to reach the opponent siege tanks but not get spotted.
In my opinion these is the best finals to be introduce in to broodwar ,very high level broodwar and lot's of crazy strategies and heart wrenching moments if you are a fan of one of those players .Iris was leading 3-0 however ggplay made a great come back and for these to be happening in the finals . I am quite jealous for all the people who caught these live . All the sets are worth watching .
GGplay vs Iris is the best OSL finals to start watching BW ever.I spoilerd the download links for the VODs in case you want it to forever be a part of your hard drive. + Show Spoiler +
what a sick sick thread. Haven't watched BW in a while (besides som Flash games) but damn this is just a trip down memory lane. Also there's a ton here i', not sure i've seen before.
Good to see how welcoming people are in this thread. Makes u feel good lol...
OMG.... Dude you know what I realize no one has ever told any sc2 player ever?
Mutalisks. They don't understand what mutalisks were like in BW.
The thing is, You've never used a mutalisk. They are INSANELY hard to control, stack, move, attack with, and also Very fragile!!! As a D Zerg i hate zvt because i have NO idea how to effectively use mutalisks.
Here is a basic FPVOD of muta micro
Don't look that good right? half the mutas in this video are at half health.
ok now look at this tutorial
(RET!!!!!!!! )
The thing is, at the pro level, mutalisks can 100% pick a part a T player whos turrets are just 5 seconds too late.
ZvZ used to be exciting too, Hydra plays at 600apm btw.
I LOVE ZVZ
Scourge were cool too, they were 200 dmg suicide bombs and that could hit and kill everything or nothing :O :O
anyways hopefully you now have some more respect for mutas. and this is another reason i don't like sc2, because muta harass is just NO where near as good.
On November 04 2011 16:23 Sawamura wrote: hydra v jaedong games are the best to watch if you want to see muta micro at it's best make yourself depressed.
I haven't watched brood war for over a year, but I'd really like to start watching again this coming season. The only problem is I don't know who is who any more! Can you guys get me up to speed on things? I know the obvious good players right now, but I want to know about the other guys.
Who is up and coming right now? Who does teamliquid really like/hate to watch and why? What teams should dominate this season? Is there anything I should know about from last season?
Bisu was kinda slumping back when I was last watching, but I'm seeing his name everywhere these days -- he's back in top shape? Is calm still good?
Bisu attained most wins ever in proleague last year.
Flash is still beastly but just had surgery.
Jaedong is still amazing by ordinary standards but last year wasn't his best.
Effort is coming back and is said to be really good.
Stork is a perpetual mystery, but still has it in him.
Baby seems to have stabilized at about A-level.
Hydra become good out of nowhere.
Zero leveled up.
Jaehoon leveled up several times in a row. He plays for real now.
Kal went to Air Force Ace to get his head screwed on straight after getting smacked around by Flash and Jaedong so much.
Fantasy is still Fantasy. Kicks ass in playoffs and OSL, veers wildly in proleague.
Oh yeah, and Jangbi just won an OSL, avenged the protoss race, and saved Brood War forever. Root for him at all times.
FBH has somehow transformed ACE into an actual team and is someone to look out for.
Calm is... Calm.
KT, SKT, CJ, and the new team are expected to lead the new proleague season. KHAN and Woongjin could go toe-to-toe with them. ACE is doing great for ACE but won't win proleague. STX... they have problems.
Edit: hahahah forgot Light. Yeah, Light is #7 on ELO, he's doing just fine.
On November 05 2011 01:24 Djabanete wrote: Bisu attained most wins ever in proleague last year.
Flash is still beastly but just had surgery.
Jaedong is still amazing by ordinary standards but last year wasn't his best.
Effort is coming back and is said to be really good.
Stork is a perpetual mystery, but still has it in him.
Baby seems to have stabilized at about A-level.
Hydra become good out of nowhere.
Zero leveled up.
Jaehoon leveled up several times in a row. He plays for real now.
Kal went to Air Force Ace to get his head screwed on straight after getting smacked around by Flash and Jaedong so much.
Fantasy is still Fantasy. Kicks ass in playoffs and OSL, veers wildly in proleague.
Oh yeah, and Jangbi just won an OSL, avenged the protoss race, and saved Brood War forever. Root for him at all times.
FBH has somehow transformed ACE into an actual team and is someone to look out for.
Calm is... Calm.
KT, SKT, CJ, and the new team are expected to lead the new proleague season. KHAN and Woongjin could go toe-to-toe with them. ACE is doing great for ACE but won't win proleague. STX... they have problems.
Edit: hahahah forgot Light. Yeah, Light is #7 on ELO, he's doing just fine.
Awesome Thanks! I'm just checking out recent ELO. Some names are unfamiliar, but I'm sure I'll catch on. Awesome to hear Light is doing well. How are sea and mind doing? Movie? Is Leta still building wraiths?
I'm sure the game is played out pretty similar to a year ago, but are there any new strategic trends floating out there? Last I watched, terran players were just starting to mech more often against zerg and sometimes even doing little valkyrie builds with bio or mech. Zerg were starting to 2 hatch a lot more often against terran. TvP was just the usual slugfest. Fantasy was really into his drop play against protoss and stork was playing beautiful pvt. Zvp was all sim city and snipping templar, etc.
On November 05 2011 01:24 Djabanete wrote: Bisu attained most wins ever in proleague last year.
Flash is still beastly but just had surgery.
Jaedong is still amazing by ordinary standards but last year wasn't his best.
Effort is coming back and is said to be really good.
Stork is a perpetual mystery, but still has it in him.
Baby seems to have stabilized at about A-level.
Hydra become good out of nowhere.
Zero leveled up.
Jaehoon leveled up several times in a row. He plays for real now.
Kal went to Air Force Ace to get his head screwed on straight after getting smacked around by Flash and Jaedong so much.
Fantasy is still Fantasy. Kicks ass in playoffs and OSL, veers wildly in proleague.
Oh yeah, and Jangbi just won an OSL, avenged the protoss race, and saved Brood War forever. Root for him at all times.
FBH has somehow transformed ACE into an actual team and is someone to look out for.
Calm is... Calm.
KT, SKT, CJ, and the new team are expected to lead the new proleague season. KHAN and Woongjin could go toe-to-toe with them. ACE is doing great for ACE but won't win proleague. STX... they have problems.
Edit: hahahah forgot Light. Yeah, Light is #7 on ELO, he's doing just fine.
Awesome Thanks! I'm just checking out recent ELO. Some names are unfamiliar, but I'm sure I'll catch on. Awesome to hear Light is doing well. How are sea and mind doing? Movie? Is Leta still building wraiths?
I'm sure the game is played out pretty similar to a year ago, but are there any new strategic trends floating out there? Last I watched, terran players were just starting to mech more often against zerg and sometimes even doing little valkyrie builds with bio or mech. Zerg were starting to 2 hatch a lot more often against terran. TvP was just the usual slugfest. Fantasy was really into his drop play against protoss and stork was playing beautiful pvt. Zvp was all sim city and snipping templar, etc.
Don't be so sure recent proleague games has change PvZ now has so many timing attacks to kill zergs these days it's just so amazing , TvT has now been divided in to two types of play wraith vs wraith or Dropship . Flash is dominating TvT now days compared to last year 2010 where he didn't even make it through msl . Zerg these days do a mixture of 3 hatch lurker drops and 3 hatch muta , Jaedong goes for his standard Muta micro and zergling flanking on the ground for a sure kill on the first batch of mnm trying to get map control .
TvP now days is mostly Carrier Fest with the return of 2 base carrier and ground troops to support it , Protoss has finally found a solution to protect their high templars from getting emp that is by keeping them in the shuttle until they are needed . ZvP these days are pretty much Muta's or Hydra or if you like Hive tech play Action won a game from Bisu really convincingly talking about mass flanking and PLAGUEEEEEe .
Fantasy in these year Jin Air Osl 2011 plays surprisingly standard in TvP and he got rolled over Jangbi , on the other hand his Mech TvZ has been figured out by zero and Neo G Soulkey by using queens to snipe tanks with broodling . Broodwar has never gone dull , Game has been a mixture of really aggressive opening these days . The game is still changing <3.
ZvP now days going solely with a single unit type without mixing your units , like zergling,hydra,muta,lurkers to flank protoss army you don't stand a single chance .
If you haven't been watching bw lately you should watch Action famous late game play vs Bisu
the bnet attack series (only a few have eng subs) are also a good way to learn some basics/see commentated, friendly/casual fpvods. It's less intense but just as impressive, with some humour/personalities mixed in.You can also see games from tasteless's days at gomtv for the averatec-intel classics tournaments (3 seasons).
On October 29 2011 23:40 elagrion wrote: This VOD made me a BoxeR fan. You have never watch anything like this. Seriously.
Boxer vs Hiya 2007 Proleague. In time when boxer was shadow of his past, but he came out with brilliant strategy that nobody can think of (even commentators was confused).
On November 05 2011 01:24 Djabanete wrote: Bisu attained most wins ever in proleague last year.
Flash is still beastly but just had surgery.
Jaedong is still amazing by ordinary standards but last year wasn't his best.
Effort is coming back and is said to be really good.
Stork is a perpetual mystery, but still has it in him.
Baby seems to have stabilized at about A-level.
Hydra become good out of nowhere.
Zero leveled up.
Jaehoon leveled up several times in a row. He plays for real now.
Kal went to Air Force Ace to get his head screwed on straight after getting smacked around by Flash and Jaedong so much.
Fantasy is still Fantasy. Kicks ass in playoffs and OSL, veers wildly in proleague.
Oh yeah, and Jangbi just won an OSL, avenged the protoss race, and saved Brood War forever. Root for him at all times.
FBH has somehow transformed ACE into an actual team and is someone to look out for.
Calm is... Calm.
KT, SKT, CJ, and the new team are expected to lead the new proleague season. KHAN and Woongjin could go toe-to-toe with them. ACE is doing great for ACE but won't win proleague. STX... they have problems.
Edit: hahahah forgot Light. Yeah, Light is #7 on ELO, he's doing just fine.
Awesome Thanks! I'm just checking out recent ELO. Some names are unfamiliar, but I'm sure I'll catch on. Awesome to hear Light is doing well. How are sea and mind doing? Movie? Is Leta still building wraiths?
I'm sure the game is played out pretty similar to a year ago, but are there any new strategic trends floating out there? Last I watched, terran players were just starting to mech more often against zerg and sometimes even doing little valkyrie builds with bio or mech. Zerg were starting to 2 hatch a lot more often against terran. TvP was just the usual slugfest. Fantasy was really into his drop play against protoss and stork was playing beautiful pvt. Zvp was all sim city and snipping templar, etc.
Don't be so sure recent proleague games has change PvZ now has so many timing attacks to kill zergs these days it's just so amazing , TvT has now been divided in to two types of play wraith vs wraith or Dropship . Flash is dominating TvT now days compared to last year 2010 where he didn't even make it through msl . Zerg these days do a mixture of 3 hatch lurker drops and 3 hatch muta , Jaedong goes for his standard Muta micro and zergling flanking on the ground for a sure kill on the first batch of mnm trying to get map control .
TvP now days is mostly Carrier Fest with the return of 2 base carrier and ground troops to support it , Protoss has finally found a solution to protect their high templars from getting emp that is by keeping them in the shuttle until they are needed . ZvP these days are pretty much Muta's or Hydra or if you like Hive tech play Action won a game from Bisu really convincingly talking about mass flanking and PLAGUEEEEEe .
Fantasy in these year Jin Air Osl 2011 plays surprisingly standard in TvP and he got rolled over Jangbi , on the other hand his Mech TvZ has been figured out by zero and Neo G Soulkey by using queens to snipe tanks with broodling . Broodwar has never gone dull , Game has been a mixture of really aggressive opening these days . The game is still changing <3.
ZvP now days going solely with a single unit type without mixing your units , like zergling,hydra,muta,lurkers to flank protoss army you don't stand a single chance .
Yeah I'd say the #1 strategic change in BW of late has been the mech switch and the mass queen counter. There was a time when floating away 6 raxes to build 6 factories would have been so baffling, let alone building 10 queens as a counter to that...
EPT
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