SC2 in Proleague? - Page 53

unit

United States2621 Posts

October 21 2011 19:08 GMT

#1041

On October 20 2011 02:36 Gann1 wrote:
goodbye GSL, it was nice knowing you

goodbye tastosis, it was nice hearing you

in all seriousness kespa better hire someone to cast for the games, especially since a new sc2 starcraft league would be done right, creating a unbelievable amount of hype around the individual player, the way it should be done and that can only happen with the proper amount of time between series.

villageidiot

353 Posts

October 21 2011 19:52 GMT

#1042

On October 22 2011 04:08 unit wrote:

Show nested quote +

Most owners of the kespa are local korean companies, so integration of foreign scene is a vague thing. However people in US and Europe could start using korean telecommunication service providers...

Torpedo.Vegas

United States1890 Posts

October 22 2011 01:51 GMT

#1043

I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?

My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.

At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion.

endy

Switzerland8970 Posts

October 22 2011 02:19 GMT

#1044

BW used to be the #1 e-sports game, it's even the game that defined e-sports. But foreigners tend to jump on the latest shiny toy available.

On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.

I'd say it will all depends on SC2 add-ons. If HotS and the next one fail badly (ie : no new interesting units, only units boring as hell like the Colossus) SC2 may not live very long. But if the two add-ons are what BW was to SC vanilla, I can see SC2 lasting a while.
Also you mention Barcrafts and amounts coming from 3rd party sources, but you need to remember that most big gaming companies like coL or EG are all multigaming companies and can switch very quickly from a game to another, whichever brings more exposure to the sponsors.

On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion.

You are totally misunderstanding BW fans. We were incredibly excited by SC2 release, and had high expectations. SC2 didn't live up to our expectation, yet it somehow killed our foreigner scene (TSL1+2 <3), and threatens our beloved Korean scene (RIP MBCGame, you'll be missed). So let's not tell us BW fans how to use our time.
As for your question, SC2 will eventually become more successful than BW - it is already out of Korea - but you can't compare two different areas, we didn't have HD streams back then, e-sports wasn't accepted like it is today (once again, BW paved the road for SC2) which means it was harder for potential sponsors to get exposure.

I am looking forward to seeing the new Proleague season, and having a SC2 proleague may be the occasion to increase BW's exposure which is definitely a good thing.

Gann1

United States1575 Posts

October 22 2011 02:23 GMT

#1045

On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?

My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.

At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion.

BW is old and doesn't have flashy graphics

When BW was new, the mechanisms that have worked for sc2: massive amounts of money pumped into it by blizzard, internet streams, and most importantly, a base to build upon, didn't exist. It caught on in Korea without any of these things, but the conditions weren't right for that to happen in the rest of the world.

SC2 is HUGELY inflated due to constant attention that it wouldn't have gotten if not for the base it got from BW. The third party sources you speak of know nothing of the game, they're just putting their advertising budget where it's going to be seen by a lot of people. They'd have done the same for BW if it caught on here like it did in Korea in the late 90s.

I think the survival of SC2 as an "international e-sports thing" depends on the foreigners' ability to keep up with the Koreans. They're doing well for now, but how long will that last once KeSPA takes over (it will)? Once the Koreans pull away again, the foreign scene will all jump to the next game, hoping they can keep up there. Did you (general you) think that the entire foreign BW scene jumped to SC2 overnight because it was a better game? No, it was because they were light-years behind the Koreans.

babylon

8765 Posts

October 22 2011 02:41 GMT

#1046

On October 22 2011 00:32 [F_]aths wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2011 22:50 gn0m wrote:

On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote:

On October 20 2011 22:02 gn0m wrote:

On October 20 2011 21:00 [F_]aths wrote:

On October 20 2011 19:58 Dante08 wrote:

On October 20 2011 18:24 [F_]aths wrote:

On October 20 2011 11:09 NeVeR wrote:
KeSPA...... why? x__x

I really think this will affect BW negatively if it were to happen. It can't do anything but divert more attention and fans from BW to SC2. I just hope that its affect on the BW scene will be minimal if it goes through.

Broodwar had its time. The game lived much longer than anyone could imagine. If the Kespa cares about business, it is only logical to transistion eventually.

Hi in case you noticed SC2 is not doing well in Korea.

Not yet, which is understandable as most top pro gamers still play Broodwar. It's the players who bring the skill and excitement.

You definitely got a point; good players make the game more exciting. But many of the flaws of SC2 exist due to the game design itself. Obviously, we haven’t seen what amazing players can do in SC2 yet and I’m positive that the game play will become more exiting in the future. But given the design of the game, I find it hard to believe that a S-class BW player somehow would improve the game to a whole new level. Trough the many limitations of BW, there is an endless amount of tasks that a progamer can excel in. Paradoxically, the streamlined design of SC2 acts more like a limit for the truly skilled players. I mean, it wouldn’t be that exciting to see Jangbi filling a screen with clutch storm when pretty much any progamer can do the same.

The game may or may not be improved with the expansions but the fact that Blizzard is hell-bent on removing techniques that “was not intended in the game” doesn’t bode well. I much prefer a game that evolves trough innovative play, rather than by patches.

I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws.

With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Overall, SC2 takes a somewhat different skill set than BW to excel in pro play, but I don't see that it is somehow proved that BW requires the "better" or "more worthy" skillset. We just got used to it over the years. Who can perform SC2 drops like Ganzi did? Not even your everyday western online cup winner. SC2 does not allow any diamond or master player to show amazing play like top playes.

In SC2, Koreans still own white dudes, but SC2 got more accessible for white dudes. This allows for a much larger player-base. Through quantity comes quality, as we have more potential gosus. So even if one feels that SC2 compromized the BW experience (which is debatable, I think) one also should see the bright side. While the BW pro scene did not die out yet, I think it is clear for everyone that SC2 is the future; if one likes it or not. It's our turn to ensure that this future is as enjoyable as possible.

By bugs, I mean muta-stacking for example, a technique that drastically improves the ability to micro mutalisks. This technique is hard as hell to master but in the hands of a skilled player it is very rewarding. There is no reason to remove bugs that improves gameplay. Yet, Blizzard has removed this technique which makes mutalisks a boring unit that can A-move. How exciting. Whats more disturbing is that Blizzard removes SC2-specific techniques without really knowing how these will impact the game in the long run, just because they weren’t “intended to be in the game”.

The whole “different skill set” has been discussed to death already, I don’t understand why people still bring this up. For anyone who have watched BW its very obvious that there are no set of skills in SC2 that are not present in BW, there is just less skill in certain areas compared to BW. Where exactly are the pros supposed to spend their extra APM? Sure, macro is a lot easier in SC2 but its also less micro and multitasking heavy. So Bisu should use his extra APM on micro that already is easier and less APM-intensive than he is used to? In other words, they removed too much in SC2 without replacing it with something new.

Yes, SC2 is a lot more popular in the west and that I can live with. But I still don’t understand why SC2 needs BW players to be enjoyable, especially when I don’t see how they are going to improve a game when the flaws exist due to game design. Lastly, I disagree that SC2 is the future. Certainly in the west but not in Korea. The foreign BW scene was already dead when SC2 was released so the success outside of Korea didn’t come as a surprise. But BW is very much alive in Korea whereas SC2 got a mixed reception. BW outlived WC3 in Korea and I think the same thing will happen with SC2 unless it improves a lot with the expansions.

WC3 got some attention in the western world but still got overshadowed by SC2. Is SC2 the better game? I think while SC2 is way easier to grasp, it also has a lot more depth than WC3 even though WC3 offers hero units and an inventory for items.

I disagree with you that SC2 has more depth than War3. War3 is an insanely complicated and unique game that has been, over the years, figured out very well (and is thus stagnating quite a bit in terms of strategy and gameplay nowadays, but that's a discussion for another time).

The other thing about War3, though, is that it was (and still is) an all-around poor spectator sport. It's not a game you can watch and understand if you're not familiar with it. It's not flashy like SC2 where things die in a split-second in gigantic pools of blood, and it's not "clear" like SCBW; I've played the game since release, and oftentimes, when I watch big, major battles in War3, I still can't fully comprehend what's going on, because a lot of shit happens onscreen that my brain has trouble processing at the normal game-speed. (But maybe this is just me.) It looks slow, and the "big moments" are defined more by units not dying vs. units dying (as it is in other RTS games). Excitement doesn't translate well, and all in all, it's more of an acquired taste than anything else.

As for why War3 got outlived in Korea, I'm going to blame the map scandal. Goddammit, Korea.

Gann1

United States1575 Posts

October 22 2011 02:45 GMT

#1047

WC3 to me is a game that's fun to play, but I never did get into watching it

aimaimaim

Philippines2167 Posts

October 22 2011 02:56 GMT

#1048

When beta was released .. Quality of the games sucked but what irked me the most is the over-hype it was getting especially from the ones who couldn't make it to the big scene in korea and talk as if BW didn't exist. Look at where they are now, they had dreams of becoming great players in SC2 but some of them just couldn't cut it.

So much promotion .. so much hype .. it felt like SC2 was being crammed into our head, forcing the scene to switch. And when that silly lawsuit came, that was it for me. Idk about the others but SC2, as it is now, can't cut to the greatness of BW.

Don't get me wrong, back in 2007, I've been extremely anticipating for SC2 but as news about its development, it made me skeptical and when the game was released and I had a feel of it, it sucked. Quality of games just doesn't cut it and add that to the over-hype being poured into it by these foreign community figureheads, you could say I'm waiting for SC2 to become atleast half of what BW is in terms of spectatorship.

Antisocialmunky

United States5912 Posts

October 22 2011 03:12 GMT

#1049

...

I mean they will have to pay out the butt for it after all the shenanigans but that would be epic. But would this mean the BW teams would make SCII teams or would it mean IM, OGS play in GSTL and SC2PL?

Ribbon

United States5278 Posts

October 22 2011 03:39 GMT

#1050

On October 22 2011 11:19 endy wrote:

Show nested quote +

BW used to be the #1 e-sports game, it's even the game that defined e-sports. But foreigners tend to jump on the latest shiny toy available.

It's still the #1 e-sports game in Korea (by far), and it was never an e-sports game in the west, so what do you mean "used to"?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271983
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269650
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=270501
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277169
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271579
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271696
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274013

Yeah, it's so doomed. Nothing preventing you from sponsoring a tournament yourself, by the way. If BW means so much to you, you should contribute to it. If you'd rather one big tournament a ear over a ton of smaller ones, you're free to collaborate. I'm consistently surprised by how many people claim to love Brood War yet don't support it in any meaningful way.

and threatens our beloved Korean scene

Well that's just fucking wrong. Korean BW's problems have nothing to do with the five people in Korea who watch SC2.

I am looking forward to seeing the new Proleague season, and having a SC2 proleague may be the occasion to increase BW's exposure which is definitely a good thing.

I'm fairly certain Koreans know about BW. The Proleague finals were the most popular program among teenage boys, after all.

darklordjac

Canada2231 Posts

October 22 2011 03:48 GMT

#1051

Wait what I just saw this now

endy

Switzerland8970 Posts

October 22 2011 04:54 GMT

#1052

On October 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's still the #1 e-sports game in Korea (by far), and it was never an e-sports game in the west, so what do you mean "used to"?

Show nested quote +

Why do you sound like ignoring the fact 98% of the top foreigners have switched to SC2 ?
SC2 was released. Almost all top players switched. We don't even have our own WCG anymore.
How can't I say SC2 killed the foreign scene ?

On October 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well that's just fucking wrong. Korean BW's problems have nothing to do with the five people in Korea who watch SC2.

That whole broadcasting affair between Blizzard/KeSPA/OGN/MBC was only because of SC2's release, Blizzard wouldn't have given a damn otherwise. It only weakened the TV channels, which were already not making much profit if any at all; and after the match fixing scandal, that affair made BW less "clean" thus less attractive for sponsors.

I am looking forward to seeing the new Proleague season, and having a SC2 proleague may be the occasion to increase BW's exposure which is definitely a good thing.

On October 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote:
I'm fairly certain Koreans know about BW. The Proleague finals were the most popular program among teenage boys, after all.

Obviously Koreans already know about BW. I believe the SC2 proleague run by KeSPA will replace GSLs and will also target the foreign audience. Just like on standard TV channels, you could have some advertising after an SC2 game saying "coming next... OSL ro16, don't miss that game etc." which could increase BW's viewers numbers, bringing more sponsors for BW.

Ribbon

United States5278 Posts

October 22 2011 05:15 GMT

#1053

On October 22 2011 13:54 endy wrote:

Show nested quote +

Dude, you never had WCG. It was a competition to see who'd be allowed to lose to whatever Korean showed up that day. And since none of the top foreigners ever could compete with Koreans to begin with, I don't see trading Nony for Pro7ect as a loss. There are new foreigners playing BW.

Show nested quote +

That whole broadcasting affair between Blizzard/KeSPA/OGN/MBC was only because of SC2's release, Blizzard wouldn't have given a damn otherwise. It only weakened the TV channels, which were already not making much profit if any at all; and after the match fixing scandal, that affair made BW less "clean" thus less attractive for sponsors.

I bolded the part you made up.

Show nested quote +

Obviously Koreans already know about BW. I believe the SC2 proleague run by KeSPA will replace GSLs and will also target the foreign audience.

The hell it will. KeSPA doesn't care if foreigners watch. And I'm not sure they even want Koreans watching.

Just like on standard TV channels, you could have some advertising after an SC2 game saying "coming next... OSL ro16, don't miss that game etc." which could increase BW's viewers numbers, bringing more sponsors for BW.

OGN does not, and never did, care how many foreigners are watching. Neither do their sponsors (Save Samsung), which are Korean companies. And there's no way KeSPA SC2 will lead into BW. It'll be buried at 3am in between Happy Days and anime porn.

hydrogg

United States377 Posts

October 22 2011 05:23 GMT

#1054

On October 22 2011 14:15 Ribbon wrote:
OGN does not, and never did, care how many foreigners are watching. Neither do their sponsors (Save Samsung), which are Korean companies. And there's no way KeSPA SC2 will lead into BW. It'll be buried at 3am in between Happy Days and anime porn.

That's not completely true. They were going to have the proleague finals in China until they had to move it because of the typhoon. They wouldn't have it in China if they only cared about Koreans watching.

rasers

Sweden691 Posts

October 22 2011 05:25 GMT

#1055

On October 22 2011 14:23 hydrogg wrote:

Show nested quote +

y they care about China 2 cause china has quite a big a SC:BW fanbase.

but for all the west foreigner they dont give a fuck.

and SC2 did and will do nothing 2 BW in korea.

Kipsate

Netherlands45349 Posts

October 22 2011 05:44 GMT

#1056

SC2 is a casual game extremly hyped due to the quality of its predecessor, 10 years ago there was no E-sport scene, now there is. There has never been a considerable BW proscene outside of Korea.

Casual, shiny, a great reputation and even infrastructure from its predeccesor and its developer(blizzard is known to release quality games).

damn right it sells.

Tomken

Norway1144 Posts

October 22 2011 05:46 GMT

#1057

Skeptic with SC2 PL because of HotS :| So many changes, it's like a whole new game when it gonna come out, WoL is finally really closed to balance (ghost nerf only needed imo) and can't really see how they gonna balance all these imba things that's coming, but ye need to test it first >_>

Torpedo.Vegas

United States1890 Posts

October 22 2011 06:04 GMT

#1058

On October 22 2011 14:44 Kipsate wrote:

Show nested quote +

SC2 is far as hell from a casual game. It is so far into the hardcore spectrum on the competitive level, but I think your perception is skewed by BW (also ultra hardcore). BW is certainly a HUGE factor for SC2's development so far, but at the same time SC2 is standing on its own, as it current BW. They are not dependent on each other anymore, even though pre-release, SC2 hype was built on BW history.

Kipsate

Netherlands45349 Posts

October 22 2011 06:09 GMT

#1059

On October 22 2011 15:04 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:

Show nested quote +

I meant with respect to BW it is a casual game.

if SC2 was just an independent game, there would be no GSL, no hype, no teamliquid to support it, without BW proscene SC2 would not have even nearly got to the same status as it has today.

Why do you think people bought SC2

It is easier to play and pickup then BW
It is hyped immensely due to Bw
It is a diverse strategy game(and those come in short supply)

Sure SC2 might be standing on its own but it would never stand at all without BW.

Torpedo.Vegas

United States1890 Posts

October 22 2011 06:27 GMT

#1060

On October 22 2011 15:09 Kipsate wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 22 2011 15:04 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:

On October 22 2011 14:44 Kipsate wrote:

I meant with respect to BW it is a casual game.

if SC2 was just an independent game, there would be no GSL, no hype, no teamliquid to support it, without BW proscene SC2 would not have even nearly got to the same status as it has today.

Why do you think people bought SC2

It is the followup of BW
It is easier to play and pickup then BW
It is hyped immensely due to Bw
It is a diverse strategy game(and those come in short supply)

Sure SC2 might be standing on its own but it would never stand at all without BW.

I agree, the infrastructure was developed during BW and a lot of trial and error occurred outside the game in terms of broadcasting and 3rd party support that SC2 could build on and use for it own gain. But now SC2 has become is own beast from a business perspective with it and BW separating into its own worlds and developments. I would even argue there are now a lot of developments that SC2 has made in terms of broadcasting and 3rd party support that moving forward BW could considering incorporating.

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