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unit
United States2621 Posts
On October 20 2011 02:36 Gann1 wrote: goodbye GSL, it was nice knowing you goodbye tastosis, it was nice hearing you in all seriousness kespa better hire someone to cast for the games, especially since a new sc2 starcraft league would be done right, creating a unbelievable amount of hype around the individual player, the way it should be done and that can only happen with the proper amount of time between series. | ||
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villageidiot
353 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:08 unit wrote: goodbye tastosis, it was nice hearing you in all seriousness kespa better hire someone to cast for the games, especially since a new sc2 starcraft league would be done right, creating a unbelievable amount of hype around the individual player, the way it should be done and that can only happen with the proper amount of time between series. Most owners of the kespa are local korean companies, so integration of foreign scene is a vague thing. However people in US and Europe could start using korean telecommunication service providers... | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night. At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast? BW used to be the #1 e-sports game, it's even the game that defined e-sports. But foreigners tend to jump on the latest shiny toy available. On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night. I'd say it will all depends on SC2 add-ons. If HotS and the next one fail badly (ie : no new interesting units, only units boring as hell like the Colossus) SC2 may not live very long. But if the two add-ons are what BW was to SC vanilla, I can see SC2 lasting a while. Also you mention Barcrafts and amounts coming from 3rd party sources, but you need to remember that most big gaming companies like coL or EG are all multigaming companies and can switch very quickly from a game to another, whichever brings more exposure to the sponsors. On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. You are totally misunderstanding BW fans. We were incredibly excited by SC2 release, and had high expectations. SC2 didn't live up to our expectation, yet it somehow killed our foreigner scene (TSL1+2 <3), and threatens our beloved Korean scene (RIP MBCGame, you'll be missed). So let's not tell us BW fans how to use our time. As for your question, SC2 will eventually become more successful than BW - it is already out of Korea - but you can't compare two different areas, we didn't have HD streams back then, e-sports wasn't accepted like it is today (once again, BW paved the road for SC2) which means it was harder for potential sponsors to get exposure. I am looking forward to seeing the new Proleague season, and having a SC2 proleague may be the occasion to increase BW's exposure which is definitely a good thing. | ||
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Gann1
United States1575 Posts
On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast? My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night. At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. BW is old and doesn't have flashy graphics When BW was new, the mechanisms that have worked for sc2: massive amounts of money pumped into it by blizzard, internet streams, and most importantly, a base to build upon, didn't exist. It caught on in Korea without any of these things, but the conditions weren't right for that to happen in the rest of the world. SC2 is HUGELY inflated due to constant attention that it wouldn't have gotten if not for the base it got from BW. The third party sources you speak of know nothing of the game, they're just putting their advertising budget where it's going to be seen by a lot of people. They'd have done the same for BW if it caught on here like it did in Korea in the late 90s. I think the survival of SC2 as an "international e-sports thing" depends on the foreigners' ability to keep up with the Koreans. They're doing well for now, but how long will that last once KeSPA takes over (it will)? Once the Koreans pull away again, the foreign scene will all jump to the next game, hoping they can keep up there. Did you (general you) think that the entire foreign BW scene jumped to SC2 overnight because it was a better game? No, it was because they were light-years behind the Koreans. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On October 22 2011 00:32 [F_]aths wrote: WC3 got some attention in the western world but still got overshadowed by SC2. Is SC2 the better game? I think while SC2 is way easier to grasp, it also has a lot more depth than WC3 even though WC3 offers hero units and an inventory for items. I disagree with you that SC2 has more depth than War3. War3 is an insanely complicated and unique game that has been, over the years, figured out very well (and is thus stagnating quite a bit in terms of strategy and gameplay nowadays, but that's a discussion for another time). The other thing about War3, though, is that it was (and still is) an all-around poor spectator sport. It's not a game you can watch and understand if you're not familiar with it. It's not flashy like SC2 where things die in a split-second in gigantic pools of blood, and it's not "clear" like SCBW; I've played the game since release, and oftentimes, when I watch big, major battles in War3, I still can't fully comprehend what's going on, because a lot of shit happens onscreen that my brain has trouble processing at the normal game-speed. (But maybe this is just me.) It looks slow, and the "big moments" are defined more by units not dying vs. units dying (as it is in other RTS games). Excitement doesn't translate well, and all in all, it's more of an acquired taste than anything else. As for why War3 got outlived in Korea, I'm going to blame the map scandal. Goddammit, Korea.  | ||
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Gann1
United States1575 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast? My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night. At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. When beta was released .. Quality of the games sucked but what irked me the most is the over-hype it was getting especially from the ones who couldn't make it to the big scene in korea and talk as if BW didn't exist. Look at where they are now, they had dreams of becoming great players in SC2 but some of them just couldn't cut it. So much promotion .. so much hype .. it felt like SC2 was being crammed into our head, forcing the scene to switch. And when that silly lawsuit came, that was it for me. Idk about the others but SC2, as it is now, can't cut to the greatness of BW. Don't get me wrong, back in 2007, I've been extremely anticipating for SC2 but as news about its development, it made me skeptical and when the game was released and I had a feel of it, it sucked. Quality of games just doesn't cut it and add that to the over-hype being poured into it by these foreign community figureheads, you could say I'm waiting for SC2 to become atleast half of what BW is in terms of spectatorship. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I mean they will have to pay out the butt for it after all the shenanigans but that would be epic. But would this mean the BW teams would make SCII teams or would it mean IM, OGS play in GSTL and SC2PL? | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 22 2011 11:19 endy wrote: BW used to be the #1 e-sports game, it's even the game that defined e-sports. But foreigners tend to jump on the latest shiny toy available. It's still the #1 e-sports game in Korea (by far), and it was never an e-sports game in the west, so what do you mean "used to"? You are totally misunderstanding BW fans. We were incredibly excited by SC2 release, and had high expectations. SC2 didn't live up to our expectation, yet it somehow killed our foreigner scene (TSL1+2 <3) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271983 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269650 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=270501 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277169 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271579 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271696 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274013 Yeah, it's so doomed. Nothing preventing you from sponsoring a tournament yourself, by the way. If BW means so much to you, you should contribute to it. If you'd rather one big tournament a ear over a ton of smaller ones, you're free to collaborate. I'm consistently surprised by how many people claim to love Brood War yet don't support it in any meaningful way. and threatens our beloved Korean scene Well that's just fucking wrong. Korean BW's problems have nothing to do with the five people in Korea who watch SC2. I am looking forward to seeing the new Proleague season, and having a SC2 proleague may be the occasion to increase BW's exposure which is definitely a good thing. I'm fairly certain Koreans know about BW. The Proleague finals were the most popular program among teenage boys, after all. | ||
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darklordjac
Canada2231 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On October 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote: It's still the #1 e-sports game in Korea (by far), and it was never an e-sports game in the west, so what do you mean "used to"? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271983 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269650 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=270501 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277169 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271579 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271696 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274013 Yeah, it's so doomed. Nothing preventing you from sponsoring a tournament yourself, by the way. If BW means so much to you, you should contribute to it. If you'd rather one big tournament a ear over a ton of smaller ones, you're free to collaborate. I'm consistently surprised by how many people claim to love Brood War yet don't support it in any meaningful way. Why do you sound like ignoring the fact 98% of the top foreigners have switched to SC2 ? SC2 was released. Almost all top players switched. We don't even have our own WCG anymore. How can't I say SC2 killed the foreign scene ? On October 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote: Well that's just fucking wrong. Korean BW's problems have nothing to do with the five people in Korea who watch SC2. That whole broadcasting affair between Blizzard/KeSPA/OGN/MBC was only because of SC2's release, Blizzard wouldn't have given a damn otherwise. It only weakened the TV channels, which were already not making much profit if any at all; and after the match fixing scandal, that affair made BW less "clean" thus less attractive for sponsors. I am looking forward to seeing the new Proleague season, and having a SC2 proleague may be the occasion to increase BW's exposure which is definitely a good thing. On October 22 2011 12:39 Ribbon wrote: I'm fairly certain Koreans know about BW. The Proleague finals were the most popular program among teenage boys, after all. Obviously Koreans already know about BW. I believe the SC2 proleague run by KeSPA will replace GSLs and will also target the foreign audience. Just like on standard TV channels, you could have some advertising after an SC2 game saying "coming next... OSL ro16, don't miss that game etc." which could increase BW's viewers numbers, bringing more sponsors for BW. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 22 2011 13:54 endy wrote: Why do you sound like ignoring the fact 98% of the top foreigners have switched to SC2 ? SC2 was released. Almost all top players switched. We don't even have our own WCG anymore. How can't I say SC2 killed the foreign scene ? Dude, you never had WCG. It was a competition to see who'd be allowed to lose to whatever Korean showed up that day. And since none of the top foreigners ever could compete with Koreans to begin with, I don't see trading Nony for Pro7ect as a loss. There are new foreigners playing BW. That whole broadcasting affair between Blizzard/KeSPA/OGN/MBC was only because of SC2's release, Blizzard wouldn't have given a damn otherwise. It only weakened the TV channels, which were already not making much profit if any at all; and after the match fixing scandal, that affair made BW less "clean" thus less attractive for sponsors. I bolded the part you made up. Obviously Koreans already know about BW. I believe the SC2 proleague run by KeSPA will replace GSLs and will also target the foreign audience. The hell it will. KeSPA doesn't care if foreigners watch. And I'm not sure they even want Koreans watching. Just like on standard TV channels, you could have some advertising after an SC2 game saying "coming next... OSL ro16, don't miss that game etc." which could increase BW's viewers numbers, bringing more sponsors for BW. OGN does not, and never did, care how many foreigners are watching. Neither do their sponsors (Save Samsung), which are Korean companies. And there's no way KeSPA SC2 will lead into BW. It'll be buried at 3am in between Happy Days and anime porn. | ||
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hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On October 22 2011 14:15 Ribbon wrote: OGN does not, and never did, care how many foreigners are watching. Neither do their sponsors (Save Samsung), which are Korean companies. And there's no way KeSPA SC2 will lead into BW. It'll be buried at 3am in between Happy Days and anime porn. That's not completely true. They were going to have the proleague finals in China until they had to move it because of the typhoon. They wouldn't have it in China if they only cared about Koreans watching. | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On October 22 2011 14:23 hydrogg wrote: That's not completely true. They were going to have the proleague finals in China until they had to move it because of the typhoon. They wouldn't have it in China if they only cared about Koreans watching. y they care about China 2 cause china has quite a big a SC:BW fanbase. but for all the west foreigner they dont give a fuck. and SC2 did and will do nothing 2 BW in korea. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast? My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night. At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. SC2 is a casual game extremly hyped due to the quality of its predecessor, 10 years ago there was no E-sport scene, now there is. There has never been a considerable BW proscene outside of Korea. Casual, shiny, a great reputation and even infrastructure from its predeccesor and its developer(blizzard is known to release quality games). damn right it sells. | ||
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Tomken
Norway1144 Posts
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On October 22 2011 14:44 Kipsate wrote: SC2 is a casual game extremly hyped due to the quality of its predecessor, 10 years ago there was no E-sport scene, now there is. There has never been a considerable BW proscene outside of Korea. Casual, shiny, a great reputation and even infrastructure from its predeccesor and its developer(blizzard is known to release quality games). damn right it sells. SC2 is far as hell from a casual game. It is so far into the hardcore spectrum on the competitive level, but I think your perception is skewed by BW (also ultra hardcore). BW is certainly a HUGE factor for SC2's development so far, but at the same time SC2 is standing on its own, as it current BW. They are not dependent on each other anymore, even though pre-release, SC2 hype was built on BW history. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 22 2011 15:04 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: SC2 is far as hell from a casual game. It is so far into the hardcore spectrum on the competitive level, but I think your perception is skewed by BW (also ultra hardcore). BW is certainly a HUGE factor for SC2's development so far, but at the same time SC2 is standing on its own, as it current BW. They are not dependent on each other anymore, even though pre-release, SC2 hype was built on BW history. I meant with respect to BW it is a casual game. if SC2 was just an independent game, there would be no GSL, no hype, no teamliquid to support it, without BW proscene SC2 would not have even nearly got to the same status as it has today. Why do you think people bought SC2 It is easier to play and pickup then BW It is hyped immensely due to Bw It is a diverse strategy game(and those come in short supply) Sure SC2 might be standing on its own but it would never stand at all without BW. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On October 22 2011 15:09 Kipsate wrote: I meant with respect to BW it is a casual game. if SC2 was just an independent game, there would be no GSL, no hype, no teamliquid to support it, without BW proscene SC2 would not have even nearly got to the same status as it has today. Why do you think people bought SC2 It is the followup of BW It is easier to play and pickup then BW It is hyped immensely due to Bw It is a diverse strategy game(and those come in short supply) Sure SC2 might be standing on its own but it would never stand at all without BW. I agree, the infrastructure was developed during BW and a lot of trial and error occurred outside the game in terms of broadcasting and 3rd party support that SC2 could build on and use for it own gain. But now SC2 has become is own beast from a business perspective with it and BW separating into its own worlds and developments. I would even argue there are now a lot of developments that SC2 has made in terms of broadcasting and 3rd party support that moving forward BW could considering incorporating. | ||
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