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On October 22 2011 00:55 [F_]aths wrote:
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
[X] Activision-Blizzard
[X] Blizzard-Kespa Lawsuit
[X] SC2 no LAN
[X] SC2 <insert any design flaws here>
[X] WoW <insert any expansion jokes here>
[X] D3 no offline single player
[X] D3 RMAH
I lost all faith long time ago...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50752 Posts
On October 22 2011 01:30 HighTemper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 00:55 [F_]aths wrote:
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard. [X] Activision-Blizzard [X] Blizzard-Kespa Lawsuit [X] SC2 no LAN [X] SC2
[X] WoW
[X] D3 no offline single player
[X] D3 RMAH
I lost all faith long time ago...
I do believe that they are trying to fix that now though with them inviting JD,Bisu,Jangbi and fantasy.
I mean they didn't even ask them to play games,they just invited them to come.
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People are wasting their time trying to convince someone who didn't even bother to look at the VODs. -_-
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On October 22 2011 01:10 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 00:59 Boblion wrote:On October 22 2011 00:55 [F_]aths wrote:On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote:
[F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ?
Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw
( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ? It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard. GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible. lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument. tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons. You don't enjoy it. That is fine. Others enjoy it. Overall (world-wide) more guys seem to enjoy SC2 over SC1. So it is reasonable that Kespa consideres a transition even if you will not enjoy it, since in the end it's all about the money. Since APM is limited by human capability, it is logical that lower macro APM requirement allows for APM usage in other areas including drops. The question is the portion of the APM which should be required by macro and other stuff to have an overall good balance of mechanical versus intellectual skill. How would BW multi-pronged drops look on pro level if the game would offer multi building selection for faster army production? We never know.
I don't care what KESPA does. I have said my feelings on the subject multiple times in this thread alone. Also, we can take viewership numbers and have a pissing contest all day if you'd like. The last PL finals were just fine. In the end, we can argue that KESPA and the S. Korean culture may prove to outlast the desire for money and keep it as a cultural phenomenon. This has to be seen.
See, and this is where you falter. Multi pronged drops have been happening for a long time. You can only drop in so many places with so many units. Lowering the APM by including niceties...
**note, I am actually all for the idea of automine/MBS and heightened control groups ((although I would've had it set at 12 for toss, 24 for terran and 36 for zerg or some arbitration thereof)) I'm just not all for the neutered gameplay, uninspired units and piss poor designing that led to BETA tournaments, balance patches based around fixing legitimately interesting bugs and further patching for 'unit role enhancement.'
Honestly, the drops would probably look the same. The greatest help to drops aren't the AM and MBS it's the shift+queue orders that allows so many drops to happen. *AGAIN* this is not a bad idea in and of itself.
Saying that it's limited is fine, but it's also limited by how much there is to do. So, now we have lowered how much we need and still have all this APM floating around but if we exclude this "moar dropz!" argument for a moment...
what is there to do?
There's only so much focus firing you can do when units smart fire.
There's only so many units maximum at one time.
There's only so many spells to cast and the units will cast for you.
See where I'm going with this? We can talk hypothetical all day long but we both have an idea of what an RTS is and what the two games are. We can foresee with some amount of accuracy and attempt to predict what will be. That's not impossible to do, at all.
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On October 22 2011 01:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I thought the give it time argument was primarily used to stall the comparisons until all the expansions are out.
My point still stands there.
A decade. An entire decade of multiple companies worth of experience in the same genre and others if they wanted to shake things up.
Unless they revolutionize the genre somewhere along the way..which....I of course hope they do but I just don't see that happening based on current design trends.
* An example being cliffwalking, an entirely awesome concept that is completely unexplored.
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On October 22 2011 01:41 TheGlassface wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 01:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I thought the give it time argument was primarily used to stall the comparisons until all the expansions are out. My point still stands there. A decade. An entire decade of multiple companies worth of experience in the same genre and others if they wanted to shake things up. Unless they revolutionize the genre somewhere along the way..which....I of course hope they do but I just don't see that happening based on current design trends. * An example being cliffwalking, an entirely awesome concept that is completely unexplored.
Cliff walking? Denying defenders advantage? Not awesome.
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On October 22 2011 01:10 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 00:59 Boblion wrote:On October 22 2011 00:55 [F_]aths wrote:On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote:
[F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ?
Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw
( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ? It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard. GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible. lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument. tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons. You don't enjoy it. That is fine. Others enjoy it. Overall (world-wide) more guys seem to enjoy SC2 over SC1. So it is reasonable that Kespa consideres a transition even if you will not enjoy it, since in the end it's all about the money. Since APM is limited by human capability, it is logical that lower macro APM requirement allows for APM usage in other areas including drops. The question is the portion of the APM which should be required by macro and other stuff to have an overall good balance of mechanical versus intellectual skill. How would BW multi-pronged drops look on pro level if the game would offer multi building selection for faster army production? We never know.
You know what's wrong with you ?
It is your dissociation between "mechanical" skill versus "intellectual" skill, which is actually a farce. You are as clueless than that Sirlin guy.
First you say that APM is limited by human capability, which is a really sad fallacy. Who would have thought in 98 that one day players with 400+ APM would appear ? You can't understand RTS if you have this kind of mindset. Each game is a different performance, each player has different abilities and potential and you can always get faster. Of course you will never see an human with 2000 apm just like we will never people running the 100m in less than 8s.
RTS are not turn based games, they are not puzzles. They are real time ACTION games, and that's why i enjoy it more than civilization, chess or tic tac toe. There is something special about it, the kind of flow you will only find in the other genres of real time games or sports ( and i have played/tried/practiced many ). You can always get faster and more accurate, each game is a new attempt to perfect your skill. That's why they are so fun, because of the flow. It is never the same.
But who cares about APM anyway ? For some people it is just a way to play, a warming to stay active all game. Do you even know why people started to use the concept of EAPM ? Because at one point some idiots started to be obsessed with their little number in bwchart and started to spam all game to look like the gosu Kors, so people had to use a new number to get rid of all the redundant commands and to know if all those apm were effective and if it was the rep of a real l33t Kor or just some East kid trying to look like Nada.
Some people are slow and they are good, some people are slow and they enjoy the game, why are you obsessed by those numbers ? Personally i enjoy more the sheer accuracy than the apm itself. Never missing a pylon, no iddle probes, good goon micro, etc... that's my ideal. I don't care if i get 100,200 or 300 apm. Sometimes i play better with lower apm, sometimes not. It is different for every players. Stork is slow for a pro. Bisu is faster. They have different style and both are very good. You can't just look at the apm and say that someone is better because he has more apm.
Then you are talking like if Sc2 is more "intellectual" than bw. Wtf does "intellectual" even means for you lol ? Making a double drop is more intellectual than making units ? I guess that planting mines, throwing dark swarm or controlling a reaver is more intellectual than injecting larvas and chronoboosting gateways then. Really it just doesn't make sense, you are just throwing words around because you prefer Sc2 ( which is fine ) and you want to make it look like a better game and hence you get ridiculed. So i will be clear about it, stop to use those dumb words or make a clear definition of what "intellectual" means ( you won't be able anyway ).
Do the guys who study game theory talk about "intellectual" games ?
Nope.
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On October 22 2011 02:01 blubbdavid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 01:41 TheGlassface wrote:On October 22 2011 01:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I thought the give it time argument was primarily used to stall the comparisons until all the expansions are out. My point still stands there. A decade. An entire decade of multiple companies worth of experience in the same genre and others if they wanted to shake things up. Unless they revolutionize the genre somewhere along the way..which....I of course hope they do but I just don't see that happening based on current design trends. * An example being cliffwalking, an entirely awesome concept that is completely unexplored. Cliff walking? Denying defenders advantage? Not awesome.
Defender's advantage is a joke.
3d movement is an excellent idea and could be balanced as easily as you would any other unit. You would prepare for it the same way you would for drops. It could be higher tech to balance the early game.
This has been brought up before as well. Drops accomplish the exact same thing, and they balanced that correct?
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On October 22 2011 01:26 jellyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 00:55 [F_]aths wrote:On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote:
[F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ?
Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw
( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ? It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard. GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible. It's strange. If an SC player and a C&C player meet, they probably call each other to play a no-life-game (C&C player to SC player) / no-skill-game (SC player to C&C player) and then both have a beer and talk about other stuff. But if an SC1 and SC2 player meet, they argue for hours about differences in micro and multi building selection. This argument never made any sense to me. It's just one example of why your belief that "bw and sc2 skillsets are very different" is false. They're different to be sure, but SO many concepts carry over from bw: first of all because it's an rts game, and second of all because it's the second starcraft. Base management; simcities (lol stephano's anti-harass simcity has been done for years in bw); aggression vs tech; unit splitting vs 1a(2a3a); greedy builds vs safe builds; scouting vs killing scouts; and others are all universal rts concepts. And things like larvae management, the role of tanks, mineral/vespene management, and a large part of the units/buildings/characteristics of each race are all similar to bw. I agree.
In your further posting you went into some more details, I also agree to them. It's no wonder why the successful SC2 pros have an SC1 history in pro gaming, even if they did not win any Starleague or MSL. It still took time to value the new units and concepts. For example the hellion: Recently nerfed, hellion pushes are currently more present than ever. It took time to figure out that hellions are actually that good.
Even BW strategies are continue to evolve today, while the last balance patch came in 2001 if I am correct. One cannot expect that SC2 starts there where BW is now.
On October 22 2011 02:07 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 01:10 [F_]aths wrote:On October 22 2011 00:59 Boblion wrote:On October 22 2011 00:55 [F_]aths wrote:On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote:
[F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ?
Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw
( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ? It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard. GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible. lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument. tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons. You don't enjoy it. That is fine. Others enjoy it. Overall (world-wide) more guys seem to enjoy SC2 over SC1. So it is reasonable that Kespa consideres a transition even if you will not enjoy it, since in the end it's all about the money. Since APM is limited by human capability, it is logical that lower macro APM requirement allows for APM usage in other areas including drops. The question is the portion of the APM which should be required by macro and other stuff to have an overall good balance of mechanical versus intellectual skill. How would BW multi-pronged drops look on pro level if the game would offer multi building selection for faster army production? We never know. You know what's wrong with you ? It is your dissociation between "mechanical" skill versus "intellectual" skill, which is actually a farce. You are as clueless than that Sirlin guy. I wish I were as 'clueless' as Sirlin. May be I should stop at this point because this issue is obviously unsolvable. And we will get the same discussion with SC3, where some SC2 players defend their game and use their detailled SC2 knowledge to lecture SC3 fans while they miss all the good stuff in SC3. I am hoping that I am able to make that transition, too.
Actually I would like to discuss the APM / mechanical / intellectual topic a bit more (short version: I agree with almost anything you said but don't think that invalides my general argument) but this threads seems not too eligible for such kind of discussion, even more though this thread is located in the BW section so I cannot use harsh words for some BW user interface restrictions.
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Stupid comment is stupid. You're basing this off of pictures! We haven't even seen them in the game yet!
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On October 21 2011 03:12 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:38 Zeon0 wrote:On October 20 2011 02:34 butchji wrote:
The teams don't even use PCs which can handle SC2? x)
Also: great news why would they? Why wouldn't they? Surely they have the budget for some $600 computers?
why waste 600$? sc1 runs perfectly on older one, there is not a single reason to buy new pcs for a Korean sc1 progaming team.
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On October 22 2011 02:38 dcsoda wrote:Stupid comment is stupid. You're basing this off of pictures! We haven't even seen them in the game yet!
Red the whole thread. There is actual in game screenshot. The mothership and the carriers are gone, and toss got the tempest now. Tassadar is face slaping himself.
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On October 22 2011 02:52 pedrotrv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:38 dcsoda wrote:Stupid comment is stupid. You're basing this off of pictures! We haven't even seen them in the game yet! Red the whole thread. There is actual in game screenshot. The mothership and the carriers are gone, and toss got the tempest now. Tassadar is face slaping himself.
Read the whole thread. Screenshot == picture
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We'll see out this turns out, but I really hope it doesn't go through. Proleague is a BW league and should stay that way, and most people that will tune in will do so only for one of the two games. Please let us have our dear BW.
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On October 22 2011 02:52 pedrotrv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:38 dcsoda wrote:Stupid comment is stupid. You're basing this off of pictures! We haven't even seen them in the game yet! Red the whole thread. There is actual in game screenshot. The mothership and the carriers are gone, and toss got the tempest now. Tassadar is face slaping himself.
Well the mothership and carriers weren't the most exciting units in Sc2. I think you should wait a bit before calling this new units "trash". I would not be surprised if they are actually more enjoyable to play 
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Do you think there's a chance Blizzard and KeSPA will announce a partnership during Blizzcon ?
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Baa?21244 Posts
New sc2 unit discussion can go in the thread it's kinda off topic here.
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Ahhh.. Its been a while since we had some healthy BW vs SC2 discussions ^_^, fun times. I would join in the flame wars, but im rather tired right now >.< Here's some spiritual support for my BW brethrens 화이팅!!
Honestly though, i dont care as long as there is none of that stuff in the middle of my BW matches. They can show that SC2 thing, or a pile of dung on the screen afterwards and it wouldn't matter. So long as those stuff doesn't corrupt my (our) BW sessions, yea
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EPT
