On October 20 2011 11:09 NeVeR wrote: KeSPA...... why? x__x
I really think this will affect BW negatively if it were to happen. It can't do anything but divert more attention and fans from BW to SC2. I just hope that its affect on the BW scene will be minimal if it goes through.
Broodwar had its time. The game lived much longer than anyone could imagine. If the Kespa cares about business, it is only logical to transistion eventually.
Hi in case you noticed SC2 is not doing well in Korea.
Not yet, which is understandable as most top pro gamers still play Broodwar. It's the players who bring the skill and excitement.
You definitely got a point; good players make the game more exciting. But many of the flaws of SC2 exist due to the game design itself. Obviously, we haven’t seen what amazing players can do in SC2 yet and I’m positive that the game play will become more exiting in the future. But given the design of the game, I find it hard to believe that a S-class BW player somehow would improve the game to a whole new level. Trough the many limitations of BW, there is an endless amount of tasks that a progamer can excel in. Paradoxically, the streamlined design of SC2 acts more like a limit for the truly skilled players. I mean, it wouldn’t be that exciting to see Jangbi filling a screen with clutch storm when pretty much any progamer can do the same.
The game may or may not be improved with the expansions but the fact that Blizzard is hell-bent on removing techniques that “was not intended in the game” doesn’t bode well. I much prefer a game that evolves trough innovative play, rather than by patches.
I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws.
With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Overall, SC2 takes a somewhat different skill set than BW to excel in pro play, but I don't see that it is somehow proved that BW requires the "better" or "more worthy" skillset. We just got used to it over the years. Who can perform SC2 drops like Ganzi did? Not even your everyday western online cup winner. SC2 does not allow any diamond or master player to show amazing play like top playes.
In SC2, Koreans still own white dudes, but SC2 got more accessible for white dudes. This allows for a much larger player-base. Through quantity comes quality, as we have more potential gosus. So even if one feels that SC2 compromized the BW experience (which is debatable, I think) one also should see the bright side. While the BW pro scene did not die out yet, I think it is clear for everyone that SC2 is the future; if one likes it or not. It's our turn to ensure that this future is as enjoyable as possible.
By bugs, I mean muta-stacking for example, a technique that drastically improves the ability to micro mutalisks. This technique is hard as hell to master but in the hands of a skilled player it is very rewarding. There is no reason to remove bugs that improves gameplay. Yet, Blizzard has removed this technique which makes mutalisks a boring unit that can A-move. How exciting. Whats more disturbing is that Blizzard removes SC2-specific techniques without really knowing how these will impact the game in the long run, just because they weren’t “intended to be in the game”.
The whole “different skill set” has been discussed to death already, I don’t understand why people still bring this up. For anyone who have watched BW its very obvious that there are no set of skills in SC2 that are not present in BW, there is just less skill in certain areas compared to BW. Where exactly are the pros supposed to spend their extra APM? Sure, macro is a lot easier in SC2 but its also less micro and multitasking heavy. So Bisu should use his extra APM on micro that already is easier and less APM-intensive than he is used to? In other words, they removed too much in SC2 without replacing it with something new.
Yes, SC2 is a lot more popular in the west and that I can live with. But I still don’t understand why SC2 needs BW players to be enjoyable, especially when I don’t see how they are going to improve a game when the flaws exist due to game design. Lastly, I disagree that SC2 is the future. Certainly in the west but not in Korea. The foreign BW scene was already dead when SC2 was released so the success outside of Korea didn’t come as a surprise. But BW is very much alive in Korea whereas SC2 got a mixed reception. BW outlived WC3 in Korea and I think the same thing will happen with SC2 unless it improves a lot with the expansions.
On October 20 2011 11:09 NeVeR wrote: KeSPA...... why? x__x
I really think this will affect BW negatively if it were to happen. It can't do anything but divert more attention and fans from BW to SC2. I just hope that its affect on the BW scene will be minimal if it goes through.
Broodwar had its time. The game lived much longer than anyone could imagine. If the Kespa cares about business, it is only logical to transistion eventually.
Hi in case you noticed SC2 is not doing well in Korea.
Not yet, which is understandable as most top pro gamers still play Broodwar. It's the players who bring the skill and excitement.
You definitely got a point; good players make the game more exciting. But many of the flaws of SC2 exist due to the game design itself. Obviously, we haven’t seen what amazing players can do in SC2 yet and I’m positive that the game play will become more exiting in the future. But given the design of the game, I find it hard to believe that a S-class BW player somehow would improve the game to a whole new level. Trough the many limitations of BW, there is an endless amount of tasks that a progamer can excel in. Paradoxically, the streamlined design of SC2 acts more like a limit for the truly skilled players. I mean, it wouldn’t be that exciting to see Jangbi filling a screen with clutch storm when pretty much any progamer can do the same.
The game may or may not be improved with the expansions but the fact that Blizzard is hell-bent on removing techniques that “was not intended in the game” doesn’t bode well. I much prefer a game that evolves trough innovative play, rather than by patches.
I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws.
With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Overall, SC2 takes a somewhat different skill set than BW to excel in pro play, but I don't see that it is somehow proved that BW requires the "better" or "more worthy" skillset. We just got used to it over the years. Who can perform SC2 drops like Ganzi did? Not even your everyday western online cup winner. SC2 does not allow any diamond or master player to show amazing play like top playes.
In SC2, Koreans still own white dudes, but SC2 got more accessible for white dudes. This allows for a much larger player-base. Through quantity comes quality, as we have more potential gosus. So even if one feels that SC2 compromized the BW experience (which is debatable, I think) one also should see the bright side. While the BW pro scene did not die out yet, I think it is clear for everyone that SC2 is the future; if one likes it or not. It's our turn to ensure that this future is as enjoyable as possible.
Wow,someone being so ignorant that he can actually question which game require more skill? Just ask yourself this: Those best SC2 players,where were they in Brood War??? And for the drops... type "SPL BeSt vs Flash 2010-12-15 @ Fortress" in youtube and watch first video. P.S. SC2 is future in Europe and America,and I`m pretty sure it wont last more than 2-3 years. In Korea SC2 is not the future. I guarantee.
Its pointless to argue with someone who has only seen one side of the story. Many of us broodwar fans play and watch both games on a regular basis and we can tell the difference based on our years of experience. Meanwhile SC2 guys make assumptions based on a few games of broodwar and only played big game hunters. I hope I'm wrong, but sadly this is the case.
On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote: With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons.
lol no
you need perfect fcking micro to do this.
Lol ninja'd. Thought of the same Flash vs Bisu godly micro battle right away.
Do they have to manually A click on the mines or does Dragoon AI target mines first?
bisu did a mix of both hold-control and manual right-click (same as A click)
No dragoons dont auto target mines first by default. Bisu had to make sure that he took out each mine before they turned his goons to blue goo, which had lost him the game. A very good example of the dynamic battles of BW, where the players are forced to react to each others moves.
On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote: With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons.
Lol ninja'd. Thought of the same Flash vs Bisu godly micro battle right away.
Do they have to manually A click on the mines or does Dragoon AI target mines first?
bisu did a mix of both hold-control and manual right-click (same as A click)
No dragoons dont auto target mines first by default. Bisu had to make sure that he took out each mine before they turned his goons to blue goo, which had lost him the game. A very good example of the dynamic battles of BW, where the players are forced to react to each others moves.
If it's the only thing in range, they will target the mine with Hold Position micro. I'm sure it was a mix. Still, very beautiful display of micro from both players.
On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote: With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons.
Boxer was already triple dropping vs Chojja on 815 back in 2005, but eh i doubt you know much about bw lol.
Honestly, the majority of SC2 posters remind me of virgins trying to sound like they know about sex. If you haven't played BW past the single player then you shouldn't be posting here.
Strange argument. One could reverse it "You only love what you know". You remind me of my parents who like the Beatles for example. I am not saying that the Beatles did make bad music, but my parents refuse to accept techno as good music. I can enjoy both while they cannot. If I am older, I will probalby argue that techno is good music of course, but the then-common music is just bad. Probably I even pity the then-youth for not taking time to listen to techno as much as they should.
I did play BW on Iccup, but never got past D- ranking. I am offended if someone doubts my love for Broodwar. But I am not saying that BW is the only and eternal truth, as gaming develops – like music. It's amazing that this game lasted for so long. Can this ever be reproduced by any other PC title? Perhaps not. Will BW be played forever in world-class tournaments? Perhaps not, either. Is Kespa right to consider a transition? I think it's neither an absoute "yes" nor an absolute"no", it's a matter of the right time.
On October 20 2011 11:09 NeVeR wrote: KeSPA...... why? x__x
I really think this will affect BW negatively if it were to happen. It can't do anything but divert more attention and fans from BW to SC2. I just hope that its affect on the BW scene will be minimal if it goes through.
Broodwar had its time. The game lived much longer than anyone could imagine. If the Kespa cares about business, it is only logical to transistion eventually.
Hi in case you noticed SC2 is not doing well in Korea.
Not yet, which is understandable as most top pro gamers still play Broodwar. It's the players who bring the skill and excitement.
You definitely got a point; good players make the game more exciting. But many of the flaws of SC2 exist due to the game design itself. Obviously, we haven’t seen what amazing players can do in SC2 yet and I’m positive that the game play will become more exiting in the future. But given the design of the game, I find it hard to believe that a S-class BW player somehow would improve the game to a whole new level. Trough the many limitations of BW, there is an endless amount of tasks that a progamer can excel in. Paradoxically, the streamlined design of SC2 acts more like a limit for the truly skilled players. I mean, it wouldn’t be that exciting to see Jangbi filling a screen with clutch storm when pretty much any progamer can do the same.
The game may or may not be improved with the expansions but the fact that Blizzard is hell-bent on removing techniques that “was not intended in the game” doesn’t bode well. I much prefer a game that evolves trough innovative play, rather than by patches.
I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws.
With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Overall, SC2 takes a somewhat different skill set than BW to excel in pro play, but I don't see that it is somehow proved that BW requires the "better" or "more worthy" skillset. We just got used to it over the years. Who can perform SC2 drops like Ganzi did? Not even your everyday western online cup winner. SC2 does not allow any diamond or master player to show amazing play like top playes.
In SC2, Koreans still own white dudes, but SC2 got more accessible for white dudes. This allows for a much larger player-base. Through quantity comes quality, as we have more potential gosus. So even if one feels that SC2 compromized the BW experience (which is debatable, I think) one also should see the bright side. While the BW pro scene did not die out yet, I think it is clear for everyone that SC2 is the future; if one likes it or not. It's our turn to ensure that this future is as enjoyable as possible.
Wow,someone being so ignorant that he can actually question which game require more skill? Just ask yourself this: Those best SC2 players,where were they in Brood War??? And for the drops... type "SPL BeSt vs Flash 2010-12-15 @ Fortress" in youtube and watch first video. P.S. SC2 is future in Europe and America,and I`m pretty sure it wont last more than 2-3 years. In Korea SC2 is not the future. I guarantee.
Maybe you would bet, but how can you guarantee it? I would bet that SC2 lasts as the world's most important RTS title at least until 2017-2018 while in 2-3 years the majority of the korean pro scene transitioned to SC2.
On October 21 2011 20:50 Greg_J wrote: There is nothing wrong with Broodwar it doesn't need any kind of remake. If you can't see past the graphics that’s you're problem you're missing out.
There is nothing wrong with Broodwar – except that it never got too much attention in the western world. I think it is pointless to debate if SC2 or BW is the better game, SC2 is just is the game which attracts a larger audience outside of Korea. E-Sports needs a large audience.
Again, I think it's less Broodwar per se which is good. It is what the players made of it. The skill of the players, the story lines developing through the leagues. I have full confidence that a Jeadong would find a way to micro his mutas and zerglings to get advantages other zergs cannot get because of their inferior unit control.
On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote: With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons.
Lol ninja'd. Thought of the same Flash vs Bisu godly micro battle right away.
Do they have to manually A click on the mines or does Dragoon AI target mines first?
bisu did a mix of both hold-control and manual right-click (same as A click)
No dragoons dont auto target mines first by default. Bisu had to make sure that he took out each mine before they turned his goons to blue goo, which had lost him the game. A very good example of the dynamic battles of BW, where the players are forced to react to each others moves.
If it's the only thing in range, they will target the mine with Hold Position micro. I'm sure it was a mix. Still, very beautiful display of micro from both players.
That goes without saying, but Bisu’s goons are constantly surrounded by units that take up hits if he doesn’t prioritizes the mines. You can see the difference when he tries to snipe the tanks and eat mine hits and compare it to 0:44 where practically every goon take out mines while the vultures stay alive.
On October 20 2011 11:09 NeVeR wrote: KeSPA...... why? x__x
I really think this will affect BW negatively if it were to happen. It can't do anything but divert more attention and fans from BW to SC2. I just hope that its affect on the BW scene will be minimal if it goes through.
Broodwar had its time. The game lived much longer than anyone could imagine. If the Kespa cares about business, it is only logical to transistion eventually.
Hi in case you noticed SC2 is not doing well in Korea.
Not yet, which is understandable as most top pro gamers still play Broodwar. It's the players who bring the skill and excitement.
You definitely got a point; good players make the game more exciting. But many of the flaws of SC2 exist due to the game design itself. Obviously, we haven’t seen what amazing players can do in SC2 yet and I’m positive that the game play will become more exiting in the future. But given the design of the game, I find it hard to believe that a S-class BW player somehow would improve the game to a whole new level. Trough the many limitations of BW, there is an endless amount of tasks that a progamer can excel in. Paradoxically, the streamlined design of SC2 acts more like a limit for the truly skilled players. I mean, it wouldn’t be that exciting to see Jangbi filling a screen with clutch storm when pretty much any progamer can do the same.
The game may or may not be improved with the expansions but the fact that Blizzard is hell-bent on removing techniques that “was not intended in the game” doesn’t bode well. I much prefer a game that evolves trough innovative play, rather than by patches.
I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws.
With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Overall, SC2 takes a somewhat different skill set than BW to excel in pro play, but I don't see that it is somehow proved that BW requires the "better" or "more worthy" skillset. We just got used to it over the years. Who can perform SC2 drops like Ganzi did? Not even your everyday western online cup winner. SC2 does not allow any diamond or master player to show amazing play like top playes.
In SC2, Koreans still own white dudes, but SC2 got more accessible for white dudes. This allows for a much larger player-base. Through quantity comes quality, as we have more potential gosus. So even if one feels that SC2 compromized the BW experience (which is debatable, I think) one also should see the bright side. While the BW pro scene did not die out yet, I think it is clear for everyone that SC2 is the future; if one likes it or not. It's our turn to ensure that this future is as enjoyable as possible.
By bugs, I mean muta-stacking for example, a technique that drastically improves the ability to micro mutalisks. This technique is hard as hell to master but in the hands of a skilled player it is very rewarding. There is no reason to remove bugs that improves gameplay. Yet, Blizzard has removed this technique which makes mutalisks a boring unit that can A-move. How exciting. Whats more disturbing is that Blizzard removes SC2-specific techniques without really knowing how these will impact the game in the long run, just because they weren’t “intended to be in the game”.
The whole “different skill set” has been discussed to death already, I don’t understand why people still bring this up. For anyone who have watched BW its very obvious that there are no set of skills in SC2 that are not present in BW, there is just less skill in certain areas compared to BW. Where exactly are the pros supposed to spend their extra APM? Sure, macro is a lot easier in SC2 but its also less micro and multitasking heavy. So Bisu should use his extra APM on micro that already is easier and less APM-intensive than he is used to? In other words, they removed too much in SC2 without replacing it with something new.
Yes, SC2 is a lot more popular in the west and that I can live with. But I still don’t understand why SC2 needs BW players to be enjoyable, especially when I don’t see how they are going to improve a game when the flaws exist due to game design. Lastly, I disagree that SC2 is the future. Certainly in the west but not in Korea. The foreign BW scene was already dead when SC2 was released so the success outside of Korea didn’t come as a surprise. But BW is very much alive in Korea whereas SC2 got a mixed reception. BW outlived WC3 in Korea and I think the same thing will happen with SC2 unless it improves a lot with the expansions.
WC3 got some attention in the western world but still got overshadowed by SC2. Is SC2 the better game? I think while SC2 is way easier to grasp, it also has a lot more depth than WC3 even though WC3 offers hero units and an inventory for items.
Game design and game mechanics of SC2 in comparison to BW has been discussed many times on TL. Proper muta usage is not a-move. Mutas still can be stacked, but this requires a lot of fast clicks. Mutas should not always be stacked, for example to fight a Thor one should let them spread out. Correct muta micro allows to shoot during flight, while a nub like me lets the mutas decellerate before they shoot, exposing them to enemy backfire. Proper SC2 muta usage is way more than a-move.
SC2 re-adjusts the balance of skills (mechanic, strategy, ...) compared to BW. Some will say, for worse. Other will say, for better. Who is right? Everyone, as it is a matter of personal taste.
[F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ? ( and i guess about Sc2 too )
I mean your conclusion is so laughable "it is a matter of personal taste". No shit dude lol. So why are you trying to convince people that Sc2 allow you to do more multi task ?
Sometimes i wish people could stop their bs about bw and Sc2. Still don't even know why this thread is in the bw section tbh.
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ? ( and i guess about Sc2 too )
I mean your conclusion is so laughable "it is a matter of personal taste". No shit dude lol. So why are you trying to convince people that Sc2 allow you to do more multi task ?
Sometimes i wish people could stop their bs about bw and Sc2. Still don't even know why this thread is in the bw section tbh.
Yea i have read his post but that still doesn't make sense for me.
Brood War has a proleague, idk what it has to do with Sc2. And at the same time i don't know how an Sc2 proleague would be related to bw. I mean you don't see a thread about the Korean CS replica in the bw section and i think they had some sort of proleague at one point too ( correct me if i'm wrong ).
I mean at that point we can just merge the Sc2 and the bw forum lol.
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
It's strange. If an SC player and a C&C player meet, they probably call each other to play a no-life-game (C&C player to SC player) / no-skill-game (SC player to C&C player) and then both have a beer and talk about other stuff. But if an SC1 and SC2 player meet, they argue for hours about differences in micro and multi building selection.
On October 22 2011 00:53 Boblion wrote: Yea i have read his post but that still doesn't make sense for me.
Brood War has a proleague, idk what it has to do with Sc2. And at the same time i don't know how an Sc2 proleague would be related to bw. I mean you don't see a thread about the Korean CS replica in the bw section and i think they had some sort of proleague at one point too ( correct me if i'm wrong ).
I mean at that point we can just merge the Sc2 and the bw forum lol.
the guest is visiting the host's house, the host must be informed
sc2 is entering bw scene, bw scene (forum) must be informed
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument.
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument.
tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Since you never watch a single game of sc2.
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument.
tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons.
Not to mention the point is further invalidated by the fact that BW was unique in being one of the forerunners of the RTS genre.
SCII has roughly a decade worth of stats, games, other companies games, culture and real world parallels to draw from. Pretending like we should be giving the apathetic laziness some credibility just because it's Blizzard/Starcraft is silly. They have all the experience they need and none of the games mechanics, ideas or units themselves are anything new. They all have current examples to draw from in games *played today!*
We can objectively look at the game, determine if we like it based on play/view and then go from there. Nothing about that requires that we give it more time. I can look at an MMO and see the general direction it's headed in and not enjoy it without having to "give it time." Subjecting myself to repetitively playing/watching something I do not enjoy in the hopes that "someday" it'll get better is pure insanity.
Oddly enough, isn't that a rather similar comparison to life in general for most people?
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument.
tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons.
You don't enjoy it. That is fine. Others enjoy it. Overall (world-wide) more guys seem to enjoy SC2 over SC1. So it is reasonable that Kespa consideres a transition even if you will not enjoy it, since in the end it's all about the money.
Since APM is limited by human capability, it is logical that lower macro APM requirement allows for APM usage in other areas including drops. The question is the portion of the APM which should be required by macro and other stuff to have an overall good balance of mechanical versus intellectual skill. How would BW multi-pronged drops look on pro level if the game would offer multi building selection for faster army production? We never know.
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
lol dude i have been around for a while and you are definitly not the guy who has invented the "give it some time" argument. And no i don't watch Korean Sc2, i don't care if it is on the same level than bw since i don't enjoy it as much for several reasons. Anyway it has nothing to do with what i was saying: stop to try to convince ppl that Sc2 is more about multitasking than bw, you have no idea of what you are talking about and it will only start a stupid Sc2 vs bw argument.
tldr: don't make uninformed comparisons.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Since you never watch a single game of sc2.
All i have said is that i don't watch Korean Sc2 atm and i don't know how it is related to multitask in bw ( i.e: what i'm talking about here ). Good try.
On October 22 2011 00:44 Boblion wrote: [F_]aths, you said that Sc2 allow players to do multi drops and more multitasking than bw, we show you some videos where bw players are already doing this too and it is definitly not new. Why are you talking about multi drops and your experience with bw if you don't even know that multi drop are used a lot in bw too ? Why are you still trying to argue when you just got ridiculed for your lack of knowledge about bw ( and i guess about Sc2 too ) ?
It took some time after the BW release before the players achieved the skill to do this. Do you know how SC2 games will look in some years? Me neither. Do I have faith? Actually yes, since this is Sparta Blizzard.
GSL open season 1-3 got us many all-ins, 1-a-move command fights. But did you watch recent GSL games? Not all of them are good, but some show a new level of SC2 play. Is it on par with BW yet? Probably no. But SC2 play is developing to have ongoing action all game long while the deep strategic intentions of both players become more and more visible.
It's strange. If an SC player and a C&C player meet, they probably call each other to play a no-life-game (C&C player to SC player) / no-skill-game (SC player to C&C player) and then both have a beer and talk about other stuff. But if an SC1 and SC2 player meet, they argue for hours about differences in micro and multi building selection.
This argument never made any sense to me.
It's just one example of why your belief that "bw and sc2 skillsets are very different" is false. They're different to be sure, but SO many concepts carry over from bw: first of all because it's an rts game, and second of all because it's the second starcraft. Base management; simcities (lol stephano's anti-harass simcity has been done for years in bw); aggression vs tech; unit splitting vs 1a(2a3a); greedy builds vs safe builds; scouting vs killing scouts; and others are all universal rts concepts. And things like larvae management, the role of tanks, mineral/vespene management, and a large part of the units/buildings/characteristics of each race are all similar to bw.
My guess is that many of the people who switched into sc2 aren't aware of the history and sophistication of bw, where a lot of these concepts have been played out, and korean progamers make their goddamn living on their mastery of these RTS concepts. It's only natural from that perspective to see these concepts in sc2 as organic development, whereas the development should actually be ridiculously sped up because of bw.
I also find it hilarious that pros still put their entire armies on one hotkey, or otherwise mess up any of the rts concepts above. They should be putting all their effort into getting a sense of and mapping out the rts concepts above as they apply to sc2. MVP, Nestea, et al already have honed their intuition for these skills from bw, which is why they're winning so much. WC3 pros, foreign bw pros, etc have traditionally had a weaker grasp of these ideas, which is why they are playing catch up right now.
tl;dr: there's been so much research into rts principles from bw that it's ridiculous sc2 should develop at the same rate as infant bw.
EPT
