EPTSo you can either have 1 or 2 more Proleague seasons with a progressive decline, or have KeSPA find ways to get money and keep BW stable and in the public eye. And the money is coming from bringing in a big shiny new game into the league, so going BW + SC2, makes more sense then BW + some other game. Considering their infrastructure that has been built up around SC2.
SC2 in Proleague? - Page 49
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
So you can either have 1 or 2 more Proleague seasons with a progressive decline, or have KeSPA find ways to get money and keep BW stable and in the public eye. And the money is coming from bringing in a big shiny new game into the league, so going BW + SC2, makes more sense then BW + some other game. Considering their infrastructure that has been built up around SC2. | ||
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jjhchsc2
Korea (South)2393 Posts
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.vid
Croatia227 Posts
certainly not a-teamers switching so they can compete with below b-teamers in brood war | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1666 Posts
On October 21 2011 14:29 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: If BW is as successful and in a stable position as fans think it is, KeSPA would not need to open up Proleague. But KeSPA is apparently considering this of their own volition so they seem to see value in attempting to expand their business model to include SC2. So you can either have 1 or 2 more Proleague seasons with a progressive decline, or have KeSPA find ways to get money and keep BW stable and in the public eye. And the money is coming from bringing in a big shiny new game into the league, so going BW + SC2, makes more sense then BW + some other game. Considering their infrastructure that has been built up around SC2. Ever considered that it's not a "need"? I imagine it's not an SC2-or-die situation, they simply want to run something else parallel because as a business, the more successful ventures you run, the better you do. | ||
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ponzi
65 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 20 2011 22:02 gn0m wrote: I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws.You definitely got a point; good players make the game more exciting. But many of the flaws of SC2 exist due to the game design itself. Obviously, we haven’t seen what amazing players can do in SC2 yet and I’m positive that the game play will become more exiting in the future. But given the design of the game, I find it hard to believe that a S-class BW player somehow would improve the game to a whole new level. Trough the many limitations of BW, there is an endless amount of tasks that a progamer can excel in. Paradoxically, the streamlined design of SC2 acts more like a limit for the truly skilled players. I mean, it wouldn’t be that exciting to see Jangbi filling a screen with clutch storm when pretty much any progamer can do the same. The game may or may not be improved with the expansions but the fact that Blizzard is hell-bent on removing techniques that “was not intended in the game” doesn’t bode well. I much prefer a game that evolves trough innovative play, rather than by patches. With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Overall, SC2 takes a somewhat different skill set than BW to excel in pro play, but I don't see that it is somehow proved that BW requires the "better" or "more worthy" skillset. We just got used to it over the years. Who can perform SC2 drops like Ganzi did? Not even your everyday western online cup winner. SC2 does not allow any diamond or master player to show amazing play like top playes. In SC2, Koreans still own white dudes, but SC2 got more accessible for white dudes. This allows for a much larger player-base. Through quantity comes quality, as we have more potential gosus. So even if one feels that SC2 compromized the BW experience (which is debatable, I think) one also should see the bright side. While the BW pro scene did not die out yet, I think it is clear for everyone that SC2 is the future; if one likes it or not. It's our turn to ensure that this future is as enjoyable as possible. | ||
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whatusername
Canada1181 Posts
On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote: I would rather say it is amazing what Broodwar became depite all the bugs and issues. But I think it is clear that a good game should not have strange bugs. How would you know that a designed "bug" works as intended? Good game design should not rely on flaws. wow who gives a shit. point is most of the bugs make the game more fun. no need to get all intellectual and say it's bad "game design." because at teh end of the day, BorodWar is more fun plain and simple. hi | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
All of these arguments feel like the person already has a per-determined opinion then simply saying whatever appears to back that opinion up, like if it was the total opposite way around and SC2 was harder you'd say that was a benefit. That's why it's pointless even trying to argue about it, you already have it made up in your mind SC2 is fine; even if experienced RTS spectators are pointing out very visible differences which can negatively affect the game, especially in the long run. Personally i'd be happy if it was a good game to watch but currently to me it's not at all. I know the casters constantly emphasize how impressive everything supposedly is but it doesn't mean it has to be true. Especially that fucking stupid comment 'hurr give it 11 years like BW' as if it hasn't been pointed out as retarded since beta; trying to act, as you are too, that the game is apparently different; different enough that no lessons can be learnt from the original everything is starting anew. Just gotta wait for that magical metagame to keep changing things up forever ignoring the fact it was BW's difficultly that pushed the metagame along. Edit: I also realized you just in one sentence say it's different then go ahead and admit it's infact easier since foreigners can compete now. Despite the fact, they always could in BW and just didn't put the effort in at the right time. Even so, why should i care that the game enables progamers of a lower skill. I don't see that as a benefit. | ||
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GoonFFS
Denmark323 Posts
we Need them DESPERATELY involved with starcraft 2. Koreans don't actually give a shit about the GSL as long as kespa arent involved. | ||
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Firkraag8
Sweden1006 Posts
The last thing we need is two camps similar to those in mixed martial arts where nobody really know who's the best fighter out there because they aren't able to fight against each other. | ||
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_awake_
196 Posts
i hope kespa hold the BW leagues more prestigious and boost prizes for it. i'll be happy as long as they keep the games separate like they do with BW and special forces. it's absolutely retarded if they mix the two games together, it's like watching football but halfway through the match, they replace the mens team with the women teams... | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
On October 21 2011 18:26 whatusername wrote: wow who gives a shit. point is most of the bugs make the game more fun. no need to get all intellectual and say it's bad "game design." because at teh end of the day, BorodWar is more fun plain and simple. hi Yeah I agree. There's strict rules governing what you can and can't do in Broodwar. All the bugs are accounted for and all the pro's no what's allowed. So what’s the problem? I agree that the bugs are some of the best features of Broodwar and understanding them and using them is a very important part of the game. I love the magic box and found it one of the most disappointing things about playing SC2 you just can't micro mutas 'properly'. It takes a lot of skill and APM to keep switching out overlords and that’s a whole element that just doesn't exist in the newer game. Replaced with the really fake and gimmicky feeling inject lava which if you think about it serves no purpose you just have to do it to stay level with your opponent. edit: On October 21 2011 18:35 GoonFFS wrote: kespa = good for esports we Need them DESPERATELY involved with starcraft 2. Koreans don't actually give a shit about the GSL as long as kespa arent involved. Not sure I agree with that. KESPA have done a lot of good for Esports but they aren’t necessarily saints. I also don't think KESPA backing of SC2 would make it any more watchable. But that's an argument only time can answer so little worth speculating about. | ||
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BobTheBuilder1377
Somalia335 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 21 2011 18:26 whatusername wrote: It's more fun for you, probably because you got used to it. SC2 attracts way more new players – and viewers – than BW does now. In this light it is very likely that Kespa actually considers a transition. May be not tomorrow, but in the foreseeable future. If we consider what pro players did with a game with many flaws, imagine what they can form out of a game with less flaws. While Broodwar itself may be no longer be played for too much time, it lives on in SC2. Even if some things are different, they still can be good.wow who gives a shit. point is most of the bugs make the game more fun. no need to get all intellectual and say it's bad "game design." because at teh end of the day, BorodWar is more fun plain and simple. hi | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On October 21 2011 18:31 infinity2k9 wrote: You can't just take things out then say it's fine because focus on other areas makes up for it, it's just deliberately trying to be obtuse to defend a game you like. I actually have a great trouble understanding this line. So you are suggesting SC2 should have reverted back to bw's manual mining, limited control groups, pathing, AI etc? just because a game is having a lower entry level doesn't mean it has a lower skill ceiling as well | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 21 2011 20:04 ETisME wrote: I actually have a great trouble understanding this line. So you are suggesting SC2 should have reverted back to bw's manual mining, limited control groups, pathing, AI etc? just because a game is having a lower entry level doesn't mean it has a lower skill ceiling as well Uhh no, i'm not suggesting that. But those elements are (partially) why it worked in BW, that is simply a fact. However why is it so impossible that the difficulty can be actually given more depth by gameplay elements? What form that might exactly be i don't know, but i'm not a game designer. There's certainly micro situations you can look at that already exist in both games and prehaps make them more rewarding for the skilled user. How about some actual creativity from Blizzard here in rewarding skilled players for their efforts? I think the macro functions were not even their idea in the first place i'm pretty sure it was discussed around here first, not that they are a particularly brilliant thing anyway. I'm not trying to suggest there's a skill ceiling either because players are going to use their APM in SC2 anyway, there's always something to do; but in BW there's not only something to do there's something you will always always miss too because its such a challenge to juggle your attention. Not to say that people will play perfect SC2 games either, but anyone can honestly clearly see the giant difference in coming even close to that point between the two. Some people say it's unnecessarily actions, i think those actions all are the game. That is the game. And it's a part of the game that has made it survive and prosper to such an extent. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 21 2011 20:05 infinity2k9 wrote: How should I know that yet? Before Boxer came, micro was not as much involved in BW. Who ever thought that it would worth it to micromanage single units so crazy?Again you just make a non-nonsensical argument. Instead of us imagining it why don't you tell us specifically what the pro players could do with SC2 that would not only be impressive but even more so than the feats we've seen in BW. | ||
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Ikonn
Netherlands1958 Posts
On October 21 2011 19:48 [F_]aths wrote: It's more fun for you, probably because you got used to it. SC2 attracts way more new players – and viewers – than BW does now. In this light it is very likely that Kespa actually considers a transition. May be not tomorrow, but in the foreseeable future. If we consider what pro players did with a game with many flaws, imagine what they can form out of a game with less flaws. While Broodwar itself may be no longer be played for too much time, it lives on in SC2. Even if some things are different, they still can be good. Flaws? Personally I'd say SC2 has way more flaws than BW but that's all subjective | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On October 21 2011 18:03 [F_]aths wrote: With SC2 requiring less actions for macro and unit production, the players can use their APM for other things, for example multi-pronged drops. In a recent SC2 game, Ganzi dropped Leenock like hell. For most viewers this should be more exciting than spider mine defusion with dragoons. Boxer was already triple dropping vs Chojja on 815 back in 2006, but eh i doubt you know much about bw lol. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 21 2011 20:10 [F_]aths wrote: How should I know that yet? Before Boxer came, micro was not as much involved in BW. Who ever thought that it would worth it to micromanage single units so crazy? Except the game has been out for a year or a little over a year now, what exceptional micro has been developed or found now?after 1.5 years the only thing we have seen in terms of micro which is two-sided is Marine splitting against banelings. SC2's metagame advances at a far paster pace then BW used to do. SC2 builds forth on the knowledge garnered by BW, who would have thought that back then?noone, however now everyone does, those concept, build orders, micro, macro they are all researched asap. And a casual game attracts more casual viewers, well thats logical , that is usually that way Whether the designers intended the flaws that BW has which makes it such a good game is irrelevant to the game spectatorship quality. Have you ever wondered why it is that some players are known for feats such as storms?if we talk about storms then everyone talks about Jangbi, in SC2 everyone can storm like Jangbi, thus making it less impressive. | ||
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