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On October 22 2011 11:23 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. BW is old and doesn't have flashy graphics When BW was new, the mechanisms that have worked for sc2: massive amounts of money pumped into it by blizzard, internet streams, and most importantly, a base to build upon, didn't exist. It caught on in Korea without any of these things, but the conditions weren't right for that to happen in the rest of the world. SC2 is HUGELY inflated due to constant attention that it wouldn't have gotten if not for the base it got from BW. The third party sources you speak of know nothing of the game, they're just putting their advertising budget where it's going to be seen by a lot of people. They'd have done the same for BW if it caught on here like it did in Korea in the late 90s. I think the survival of SC2 as an "international e-sports thing" depends on the foreigners' ability to keep up with the Koreans. They're doing well for now, but how long will that last once KeSPA takes over (it will)? Once the Koreans pull away again, the foreign scene will all jump to the next game, hoping they can keep up there. Did you (general you) think that the entire foreign BW scene jumped to SC2 overnight because it was a better game? No, it was because they were light-years behind the Koreans.
My thoughts exactly.
I cant say I really blame them though. This is how they make money, and BW was far and away from ever being profitable for 99% of foreigners.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 22 2011 15:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 15:09 Kipsate wrote:On October 22 2011 15:04 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On October 22 2011 14:44 Kipsate wrote:On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. SC2 is a casual game extremly hyped due to the quality of its predecessor, 10 years ago there was no E-sport scene, now there is. There has never been a considerable BW proscene outside of Korea. Casual, shiny, a great reputation and even infrastructure from its predeccesor and its developer(blizzard is known to release quality games). damn right it sells. SC2 is far as hell from a casual game. It is so far into the hardcore spectrum on the competitive level, but I think your perception is skewed by BW (also ultra hardcore). BW is certainly a HUGE factor for SC2's development so far, but at the same time SC2 is standing on its own, as it current BW. They are not dependent on each other anymore, even though pre-release, SC2 hype was built on BW history. I meant with respect to BW it is a casual game. if SC2 was just an independent game, there would be no GSL, no hype, no teamliquid to support it, without BW proscene SC2 would not have even nearly got to the same status as it has today. Why do you think people bought SC2 It is the followup of BW It is easier to play and pickup then BW It is hyped immensely due to Bw It is a diverse strategy game(and those come in short supply) Sure SC2 might be standing on its own but it would never stand at all without BW. I agree, the infrastructure was developed during BW and a lot of trial and error occurred outside the game in terms of broadcasting and 3rd party support that SC2 could build on and use for it own gain. But now SC2 has become is own beast from a business perspective with it and BW separating into its own worlds and developments. I would even argue there are now a lot of developments that SC2 has made in terms of broadcasting and 3rd party support that moving forward BW could considering incorporating.
Yes this is true
what are we arguing about again.
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They used BW music on WCG today, it was nice.
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On October 22 2011 03:12 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:52 pedrotrv wrote:On October 22 2011 02:38 dcsoda wrote:Stupid comment is stupid. You're basing this off of pictures! We haven't even seen them in the game yet! Red the whole thread. There is actual in game screenshot. The mothership and the carriers are gone, and toss got the tempest now. Tassadar is face slaping himself. Well the mothership and carriers weren't the most exciting units in Sc2. I think you should wait a bit before calling this new units "trash". I would not be surprised if they are actually more enjoyable to play 
OMFG, Blizzard removed the Carrier? The ultimate Protoss destroyer? REMOVED?
They are gonna remove the Hydralisk in LotV since it is not "the most exciting unit" anyway...
Blizzard should think of renaming the game too.
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On October 22 2011 15:42 HighTemper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 03:12 Boblion wrote:On October 22 2011 02:52 pedrotrv wrote:On October 22 2011 02:38 dcsoda wrote:Stupid comment is stupid. You're basing this off of pictures! We haven't even seen them in the game yet! Red the whole thread. There is actual in game screenshot. The mothership and the carriers are gone, and toss got the tempest now. Tassadar is face slaping himself. Well the mothership and carriers weren't the most exciting units in Sc2. I think you should wait a bit before calling this new units "trash". I would not be surprised if they are actually more enjoyable to play OMFG, Blizzard removed the Carrier? The ultimate Protoss destroyer? REMOVED? They are gonna remove the Hydralisk in LotV since it is not "the most exciting unit" anyway... Blizzard should think of renaming the game too.
Frankly, the carrier in Sc2 was never as cool as the BW one. It did more damage, but you couldn't micro it to pull back from the enemy but keep attacking with interceptors. Given Blizz's apparent aversion to "micro tricks" like that in Sc2, it probably wasn't fixable,
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On October 22 2011 15 :42 HighTemper wrote:
Show nested quote +
OMFG, Blizzard removed the Carrier? The ultimate Protoss destroyer? REMOVED?
They are gonna remove the Hydralisk in LotV since it is not "the most exciting unit" anyway...
Blizzard should think of renaming the game too.
The game is called StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty, not StarCraft: Brood War HD Remake.
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On October 22 2011 23:27 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 15 :42 HighTemper wrote:
Show nested quote +
OMFG, Blizzard removed the Carrier? The ultimate Protoss destroyer? REMOVED?
They are gonna remove the Hydralisk in LotV since it is not "the most exciting unit" anyway...
Blizzard should think of renaming the game too. The game is called StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty, not StarCraft: Brood War HD Remake.
Actually it's Starcraft 2: Heart of The Swarm. In WoL the Carrier is till there! 
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I will always consider brood war like chess, a classic game that can never be forgotten.
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Any news about BW PL? When's it starting?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49973 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:25 Emon_ wrote:
Any news about BW PL? When's it starting?
best bet,second week of november.
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"Temptest-Powerful capital ship that dominates the skies with massive are-of-effect attacks against light enemy flyers and a strong beam against ground targets". I always thought that if you want to name unit "Tempest",it simply has to be a Dragoon which cannot die until it gets 33 kills.
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On October 23 2011 00:39 Vuk_91 wrote:
"Temptest-Powerful capital ship that dominates the skies with massive are-of-effect attacks against light enemy flyers and a strong beam against ground targets". I always thought that if you want to name unit "Tempest",it simply has to be a Dragoon which cannot die until it gets 33 kills.
At least new unit was made with "micro" in mind. XD
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With MBC game gone I can see GOM and OGN co-existing together for proleagues.
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I hope there is a seperate SC and SC2 proleague at least for a while. SC2 just isn't a game ready for massive action yet.
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On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion.
SCBW has been doing exceptionally well.
When SCBW was out there was nothing.
no youtube, no livestreams, no commentaries, hell even no replay pre 1.08 patches.
It wasn't designed with e-sport in mind at all but stll grew substantially. In fact I think its one of the most succesful game in driving e-sports forward. Why would blizzard make SC2 had they not seen the success of BW?
And on the fading bit.
Is classical music better or pop music the better music? Good/bad has nothing to do with popularity.
Unfortunately the mass(refering to ppl like you) mainly like graphics and want new stuff so they tend to avoid old stuff. (consumerist) Due to the handicaps mentioned above it took BW quite long to development and by that time the mass would simply not play it.
SC2 will meet the same fate, newer engines, graphics, gameplay might make it obsolete and we may have to see SC3. BW lasted at least 10 years (still going on of coz) and lets see how many years can SC2 last lol
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On October 23 2011 04:32 HaFnium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. SCBW has been doing exceptionally well. When SCBW was out there was nothing. no youtube, no livestreams, no commentaries, hell even no replay pre 1.08 patches. It wasn't designed with e-sport in mind at all but stll grew substantially. In fact I think its one of the most succesful game in driving e-sports forward. Why would blizzard make SC2 had they not seen the success of BW? And on the fading bit. Is classical music better or pop music the better music? Good/bad has nothing to do with popularity. Unfortunately the mass(refering to ppl like you) mainly like graphics and want new stuff so they tend to avoid old stuff. (consumerist) Due to the handicaps mentioned above it took BW quite long to development and by that time the mass would simply not play it. SC2 will meet the same fate, newer engines, graphics, gameplay might make it obsolete and we may have to see SC3. BW lasted at least 10 years (still going on of coz) and lets see how many years can SC2 last lol
Yes. same deal in the FPS genré. quake is by far a better game then COD black ops in terms of skill, but quake is now almost gone from the scene, outside of a few selected tournaments that still holds em.
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This is actually fair transformation. If SC2 will win, its just becouse it makes more popular than BW (I hope it wont). I dont care about SC2 (it's a bad spectator game imo) and I'm neutral towards eventual SC2 KESPA legue.
If this be something like forced BW retreat, I would rage really hard.
And what if Koreans will say that SC2 is crap and refuse to watch it? SC2 lovers are too early exited and BW fans are too early in mourn.
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On October 23 2011 04:53 hitthat wrote:
This is actually fair transformation. If SC2 will win, its just becouse it makes more popular than BW (I hope it wont). I dont care about SC2 (it's a bad spectator game imo) and I'm neutral towards eventual SC2 KESPA legue.
If this be something like forced BW retreat, I would rage really hard.
I don't think this whole thing is about one winning over the other but is a response to MBC potentially dropping its gaming channel. If that does happen then it'll reduce the number of Brood War games, Kespa, I think, are looking at SC2 as a potential to help fill that void, and also, maybe, to tap into the momentum that SC2 currently has and maybe break out into international audiences (which just weren't there with Brood War)
Personally, I think that having another professional SC2 competition in Korea which can rival the GSL will be great. It will mean that the GSL will have some competition and both will have to up their game against one another to provide the best experience for fans. In North America there's already MLG, IPL, NASL and IEM, each trying to outdo one another, in Korea the GLS is the only major competition, so there's nothing really to motivate them to improve their format and presentation, so I think that more competition will really benefit the Korean SC2 scene and hope that there is some development from this.
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On October 23 2011 04:46 Spuick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 04:32 HaFnium wrote:On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. SCBW has been doing exceptionally well. When SCBW was out there was nothing. no youtube, no livestreams, no commentaries, hell even no replay pre 1.08 patches. It wasn't designed with e-sport in mind at all but stll grew substantially. In fact I think its one of the most succesful game in driving e-sports forward. Why would blizzard make SC2 had they not seen the success of BW? And on the fading bit. Is classical music better or pop music the better music? Good/bad has nothing to do with popularity. Unfortunately the mass(refering to ppl like you) mainly like graphics and want new stuff so they tend to avoid old stuff. (consumerist) Due to the handicaps mentioned above it took BW quite long to development and by that time the mass would simply not play it. SC2 will meet the same fate, newer engines, graphics, gameplay might make it obsolete and we may have to see SC3. BW lasted at least 10 years (still going on of coz) and lets see how many years can SC2 last lol Yes. same deal in the FPS genré. quake is by far a better game then COD black ops in terms of skill, but quake is now almost gone from the scene, outside of a few selected tournaments that still holds em.
Quake isn't fading out because of black ops. Black ops is only played at MLG. It is fading out because of LOL and SC2. and then there is still counter strike being played at almost every tournament. IEM, ESWC, WCG, Dreamhack, Estars Seoul, ESEA, ASUS, etc
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From many standpoints for the better benefit of E-Sports in general, this sounds like a good yet risky idea.
However the push to convert SC1 into SC2 is really insensitive in a sense for me. SC2 and SC1 is like fresh apples and apple juice. If folks like fresh apples, then leave them alone with their fresh apples. Sayin' that apple juice is better because its new and everyone should try it and ditch fresh apples is wrong. Like in the above example, the only thin' that connects SC1 and SC2 is just the franchise name. If SC2 was named Orcs in Space, then none of these SC1 vs SC2 debates would be floatin' around here.
The above was from the standpoint of the decision of separation or combination of SC1 and SC2. From a business standpoint, the idea of mergin' the 2 games are very profitable since SC2's popularity outshines SC1 in many ways, and it also has a bigger amount of awareness than SC1 to top thin's off. If SC2 is integrated into SC1, then SC2 will be the bridge that connects the SC1's world to SC2. The risk here however is wither folks want to walk on that bridge or not. If not enough folks want to transition or merge themselves with the SC2 world, then the bridge was not profitable to be made. As we can see, there are plenty of adamant folks that'll die in glory in the name of SC1's world which is one of the many evidence that this bridge is rather risky.
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EPT
