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On October 20 2011 06:01 Pelopidas wrote:
I played SC2 for a while but stopped once I realized that Blizzard was more concerned with the way casuals view the game than the actual game play experience. Now it seems that something I tried to get away from has chased me to my last refuge, and set it on fire. I just want BW to be left alone. Why is it so important that BW players switch to SC2? Why can't you SC2 fans just be happy that you get constant coverage of games from players all over the world?
It really irritates me that Blizzard has managed to astroturf a commercialized imitation of the eSports scene that sprung up spontaneously in Korea. By funding huge prize pools, and by using the name Starcraft, Blizzard managed to have the entire noncompetitive foreigner scene, many B teamers, and washed up pros switch to SC2. In my opinion many fans were duped into feeling like they were participating in something like the early days of Brood War, like they were blazing a trail for an eSports scene in the west. Instead it feels as if Blizzard is using the scene as a gigantic advertisement to sell more copies of SC2, while collecting a large percentage of tournament profits on the side. Blizzard, in attempt to parallel the way they were able to dominate the MMO genre with WoW, has created an RTS with its edges worn off, and have enriched their coffers, while gaining publicity, and recognition, with a competitive scene that attempts to parrot.
To me the game is far too different from Brood War to be its true successor. Even so, I would be willing to accept and tolerate it as long as Brood War was left alone. Now, however, Blizzards tendrils have started to touch something I hold dear, I don't know what to do. It seems I am forced to sit idle while something I enjoy is torn apart in the name of Activision-Blizzard's bottom line.
I'm assuming you're going to get a lot of hate for this post, and while I don't share the exact same feelings as you, I completely understand what you mean and am in like 90% agreement with you. SC2 really isn't anything like BW. 
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Wow these BW fanatics are crazy. I mean I love BW and all, I always will, but SC2 is the future.. If BW is that much superior then nothing to worry about, surely? There's enough room for both.
Good news for SC2.
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On October 20 2011 05:38 Skilledblob wrote:
I sincerely hope that KeSPA does not get its fingers on SC2
Why ? Any particular reasons?
Im actually grateful that such thing as KeSPA ever happened. Who knows what it would be today if not them and 10+ years of BW they kept running and still do.
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On October 20 2011 06:18 Terminal wrote:
Wow these BW fanatics are crazy. I mean I love BW and all, I always will, but SC2 is the future.. If BW is that much superior then nothing to worry about, surely? There's enough room for both.
Good news for SC2.
I agree with you except for one small part of your post 
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I really hope this means BW and SC2 will exist together, I wish that so much
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this doesnt really make much sense at all. like shouldnt it be a different league completely? if kespa wants to run one (a sc2 league) that's fine, but don't take time away from BW for it! I'd rather have 2v2 come back lol 
it reminds me of that weird special event tournament they did last year where all the teams that had BW and special forces squads competed in matches where each set was either 1 BW match or like 5 rounds of SF lol.
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i just hope that this is good for the future of e-sports and sc2. i dont want Kespa fucking up the already amazing relationship foreigners have with korean sc2 players.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 20 2011 06:19 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:38 Skilledblob wrote:
I sincerely hope that KeSPA does not get its fingers on SC2 Why ? Any particular reasons? Im actually grateful that such thing as KeSPA ever happened. Who knows what it would be today if not them and 10+ years of BW they kept running and still do.
It depends if KeSPA will require SC2 korean progamers to aquire progaming licences and shit and acknowledge SC2 as an E-sport, meaning that they will only be allowed to participate in KeSpA sanctioned events(I could be wrong).
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On October 20 2011 06:20 Ideas wrote:this doesnt really make much sense at all. like shouldnt it be a different league completely? if kespa wants to run one (a sc2 league) that's fine, but don't take time away from BW for it! I'd rather have 2v2 come back lol it reminds me of that weird special event tournament they did last year where all the teams that had BW and special forces squads competed in matches where each set was either 1 BW match or like 5 rounds of SF lol.
It'll be a separate league, not like Ultimate Proleague (aka Ultimate Matchfixing League )
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Thinking about the overall term "Proleague"...
I don't think SC2 will ever replace BW in Proleague, but perhaps rather be the beginning of more games being added under the "SPL" brand name.
I think the "SCBW in Korea" headlines post had a nice article summary about it:
Summary: Director Lee of Eclat Entertainment points out some key issues with the current eSports scene in Korea. In his experience dealing with the Korean Baseball League, arguably the most popular sports league in Korea right now, he experienced how a few broadcasting changes can turn around the viewership and popularity. He is encouraging popular portal sites such as Naver (www.naver.com) to invest in eSports as a partner. He identifies the global appeal of eSports is one of the core strengths that should be more widely utilized than right now. He recommends branding of SPL and that in order for that to be done successfully, more games need to achieve a balance in the scene [right now, it is heavily dependent on SCBW]. Continual investment, partnership, promotion, and dedication will bring only brighter future ahead.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274673
So perhaps this actually means that the term "Proleague" may gravitate away from being a purely BW team league to possibly becoming an umbrella term/brand for multiple leagues for multiple games, kinda like how MLG or IEM have different games in their leagues. So maybe the "Proleague" brand will be expanded to include a BW SPL, SC2 SPL, or perhaps SPLs for other games. Kart Rider SPL?
I'm actually not too familiar with these specifics, so correct me if I'm wrong.
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Would this mean there will be English commentators for SCBW Proleague? They would have to hire English commentators for SC2 anyway since such a large fanbase doesn't speak Korean so they could get them to commentate both events. I have tried watching BW before but it was hard to follow along with no one to explain anything. I know there are people who voice over the vods of events but it's not as good as being able to click the event sidebar and watch it live. Having official English casters would make me watch more BW.
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On October 20 2011 06:01 Pelopidas wrote:
I played SC2 for a while but stopped once I realized that Blizzard was more concerned with the way casuals view the game than the actual game play experience. Now it seems that something I tried to get away from has chased me to my last refuge, and set it on fire. I just want BW to be left alone. Why is it so important that BW players switch to SC2? Why can't you SC2 fans just be happy that you get constant coverage of games from players all over the world?
It really irritates me that Blizzard has managed to astroturf a commercialized imitation of the eSports scene that sprung up spontaneously in Korea. By funding huge prize pools, and by using the name Starcraft, Blizzard managed to have the entire noncompetitive foreigner scene, many B teamers, and washed up pros switch to SC2. In my opinion many fans were duped into feeling like they were participating in something like the early days of Brood War, like they were blazing a trail for an eSports scene in the west. Instead it feels as if Blizzard is using the scene as a gigantic advertisement to sell more copies of SC2, while collecting a large percentage of tournament profits on the side. Blizzard, in attempt to parallel the way they were able to dominate the MMO genre with WoW, has created an RTS with its edges worn off, and have enriched their coffers, while gaining publicity, and recognition, with a competitive scene that attempts to parrot.
To me the game is far too different from Brood War to be its true successor. Even so, I would be willing to accept and tolerate it as long as Brood War was left alone. Now, however, Blizzards tendrils have started to touch something I hold dear, I don't know what to do. It seems I am forced to sit idle while something I enjoy is torn apart in the name of Activision-Blizzard's bottom line.
Here's something funny. When you call sc2 bw's successor, you get some sc2 fans protesting it's a different game ("it's not bw! different skills, different game design, different everything"). But when you turn it around and talk about sc2 moving into bw's realm, it's suddenly an "evolution" or a "natural transition" to move from bw to sc2. That's trying to have your cake and eat it, too, imo. The truth isn't one extreme or the other. The games are different enough that bw pros won't instantly dominate sc2 just because they were good at bw, and it's different enough that bw pros may not be attracted to sc2 because they much prefer bw. Think about the reality that just several past-their-prime legends and several lower-tier bw pros switched, and still call it a "natural transition..."
Also, I don't understand why those sc2 fans can't see it's inconsiderate/rude/ignorant to say "OMG I hope they switch over " I guess I can understand they're excited and all, but the implication of a statement like that is that you want to see one scene get enriched at the expense of another. Anyone who makes a statement like that shouldn't surprised when bw fans get offended.
On topic, I'm excited for the sc2 scene to finally get the world's most experienced and concentrated e-sports organization into the game. It'll be good for that scene, and best of luck to it (as long as it doesn't hurt bw )
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On October 20 2011 06:22 eviltomahawk wrote:Thinking about the overall term "Proleague"... I don't think SC2 will ever replace BW in Proleague, but perhaps rather be the beginning of more games being added under the "SPL" brand name. I think the "SCBW in Korea" headlines post had a nice article summary about it: Show nested quote +Summary: Director Lee of Eclat Entertainment points out some key issues with the current eSports scene in Korea. In his experience dealing with the Korean Baseball League, arguably the most popular sports league in Korea right now, he experienced how a few broadcasting changes can turn around the viewership and popularity. He is encouraging popular portal sites such as Naver (www.naver.com) to invest in eSports as a partner. He identifies the global appeal of eSports is one of the core strengths that should be more widely utilized than right now. He recommends branding of SPL and that in order for that to be done successfully, more games need to achieve a balance in the scene [right now, it is heavily dependent on SCBW]. Continual investment, partnership, promotion, and dedication will bring only brighter future ahead. So perhaps this actually means that the term "Proleague" may gravitate away from being a purely BW team league to possibly becoming an umbrella term/brand for multiple leagues for multiple games, kinda like how MLG or IEM have different games in their leagues. So maybe the "Proleague" brand will be expanded to include a BW SPL, SC2 SPL, or perhaps SPLs for other games. Kart Rider SPL? I'm actually not too familiar with these specifics, so correct me if I'm wrong.
There's already a Proleague for Special Force, but I think that's the only other game run under the Proleague banner. I heard about Kart Rider on OGN, I wonder if Kespa has any hold there? And if so, why isn't it under the Proleague banner?
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Not sure why people are grasping at English casting on BW, is it because they're negotiating with Blizzard/Gretech?
@ideas holy shit dude that's WAY old school haha. I remember something else like that too where they alternated BW and Special Forces...like set 2 and 4 would be Special Forces matches or something
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I'm a bit confused.
None of the BW sponsors is sponsoring any SC2 team (now that Wemade is pulling the plug), and proleague is basically a team tournament overseen by a conglomerate of BW sponsors. How can they hold a tournament for which they have no players for? O.o?
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On October 20 2011 06:22 Flyinspageti wrote:
Would this mean there will be English commentators for SCBW Proleague? They would have to hire English commentators for SC2 anyway since such a large fanbase doesn't speak Korean so they could get them to commentate both events. I have tried watching BW before but it was hard to follow along with no one to explain anything. I know there are people who voice over the vods of events but it's not as good as being able to click the event sidebar and watch it live. Having official English casters would make me watch more BW.
Best case scenario: English commentators for all of Proleague, and maybe even OSL!
Worst case scenario: No english commentators, ridiculous barrier of entry for foreigners into Korean scene, Koreans don't come to events like MLG anymore because they're focused on Proleague.
All we can do is wait to see what happens.
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I hope I'm not talking out of my ass because I never followed BW and therefore do not have the same amount of respect for it but I think its slow decline should be a bitter sweet thing. I remember what Artosis said on SOTG, that he'd rather it die off immediately. A slow decline would be too painful for him. There is obviously a great level of complexity to BW, something that many BW fans cannot find elsewhere, but I think it is naive to think that SC2 will never reach that stage. Maybe not with the current balance settup but in later installments (HotS). And let's say worst case scenario happens and Kespa throws BW out and puts SC2 in. It won't happen like that - but even the worst case transisition possible would ultimately still be a good thing. Any organization that does not keep up with the times is doomed to fail.
THAT BEING SAID, I personally don't think this is going to inflict BW negatively at all. In fact it might mean people such as myself watch a little BW.
Edit: gave more context to Artosis quote
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On October 20 2011 06:24 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 06:22 eviltomahawk wrote:Thinking about the overall term "Proleague"... I don't think SC2 will ever replace BW in Proleague, but perhaps rather be the beginning of more games being added under the "SPL" brand name. I think the "SCBW in Korea" headlines post had a nice article summary about it: Summary: Director Lee of Eclat Entertainment points out some key issues with the current eSports scene in Korea. In his experience dealing with the Korean Baseball League, arguably the most popular sports league in Korea right now, he experienced how a few broadcasting changes can turn around the viewership and popularity. He is encouraging popular portal sites such as Naver (www.naver.com) to invest in eSports as a partner. He identifies the global appeal of eSports is one of the core strengths that should be more widely utilized than right now. He recommends branding of SPL and that in order for that to be done successfully, more games need to achieve a balance in the scene [right now, it is heavily dependent on SCBW]. Continual investment, partnership, promotion, and dedication will bring only brighter future ahead. So perhaps this actually means that the term "Proleague" may gravitate away from being a purely BW team league to possibly becoming an umbrella term/brand for multiple leagues for multiple games, kinda like how MLG or IEM have different games in their leagues. So maybe the "Proleague" brand will be expanded to include a BW SPL, SC2 SPL, or perhaps SPLs for other games. Kart Rider SPL? I'm actually not too familiar with these specifics, so correct me if I'm wrong. There's already a Proleague for Special Force, but I think that's the only other game run under the Proleague banner. I heard about Kart Rider on OGN, I wonder if Kespa has any hold there? And if so, why isn't it under the Proleague banner?
My guess is that it's because teams are not owned by the huge corporate sponsors that own SC1 and SF PL teams. ie. the companies that Kespa represent. But Kartrider is an esport in Korea that's under the jurisdiction of Kespa.
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I really don't get why most of the BW fans are acting like someone steals something from them. If I understand it right KeSPA will run both games and will not force anyone to switch. Then its a natural process - if sponsors find SC2 more attractive then BW will phase out, the opposite is likely too. That's only for Korea ofc...
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On October 20 2011 06:27 McFeser wrote:
I hope I'm not talking out of my ass because I never followed BW and therefore do not have the same amount of respect for it but I think its slow decline should be a bitter sweet thing. I remember what Artosis said on SOTG, that he'd rather it die off immediately. A slow decline would be too painful for him. There is obviously a great level of complexity to BW, something that many BW fans cannot find elsewhere, but I think it is naive to think that SC2 will never reach that stage. Maybe not with the current balance settup but in later installments (HotS). And let's say worst case scenario happens and Kespa throws BW out and puts SC2 in. It won't happen like that - but even the worst case transisition possible would ultimately still be a good thing. Any organization that does not keep up with the times is doomed to fail.
THAT BEING SAID, I personally don't think this is going to inflict BW negatively at all. In fact it might mean people such as myself watch a little BW.
Edit: gave more context to Artosis quote
Problem is SC2's supremacy internationally does not necessarily translate to the same in Korea. Sticking with BW might not be not 'keeping up with the times', especially given SC2's poor initial reception in that country.
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EPT
