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On October 18 2011 08:59 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Dude. LoL takes so much skill man. :[ I suck so much.
My point. Your head. Whoosh. Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:56 teddyoojo wrote:On October 18 2011 08:53 Nikon wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw It's not that I loathe SC2, I just like Brood War better. But then there's literally 50000 people that think that SC2 is the hottest shit on Earth, and are very vocal about it. Given the nature of this site nowadays it kinda gets pushed into my vision field all the time, and due to the nature of some individuals it can get a bit... irksome. The worst offenders are the people that spend their time bashing LoL for requiring less skill. At least they have the remedial part of being mildly funny. That's just the way I feel tho, it varies from person to person obviously  Well, this guy is the perfect example: On October 18 2011 08:52 teddyoojo wrote:On October 18 2011 08:50 Essbee wrote:On October 18 2011 01:13 Zona wrote:
Yeah...
I'm going to be pissed if they attend to play SC2 exhibition matches. I had the exact same thoughts while reading this op... bw hipsters. cant you just be happy to see korean legends in usa, maybe see them live and get an autograph? jesus christ im even more sad im not rich enough to go to blizzcon T_T yeah, my post just cried out loud how sc2 is the hottest shit on earth. i get your point. no i dont. u ppl seem all so butthurt, i just dont get it. wont respond any further bcuz i just dont care. You came to the Brood War section of the forum to call fans "BW hipsters". It's not even the correct usage of the term hipster. Maybe I AM butthurt, yes.
He probably saw this in community news and his post is actually a good point. People should just be happy that these guys get to travel and see foreign fans but some people in this thread apparently legitimately want to lock up our idols in Korea and hate what they choose to do if it's even in the vicinity of SC2. It's bloody sad sometimes, forcing our opinions onto people we look up to.
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On October 18 2011 09:09 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:44 bardtown wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw I think BW players are probably a bit apprehensive because if these players were to switch to SC2, it would be a huge blow to the future of BW. Still, I don't think that justifies the ganking of legitimate comments of people who want to see them switch. Also, it's just a fallacious argument to say that a BW player who was ranked above MVP in BW will be able to outcompete him in SC2. To say that is to completely ignore the level of MVP's play. Nada, Boxer and July were top BW players, but they're not really close to MVP in SC2. Throughout SC:BW's history, the level of play continually increased. Boxer used to be the best, but even at his best he couldn't compete with the top pros nowadays. Nada took over the reigns after Boxer and he was the best for a while, but the level of play continued to increase. These guys didn't drop off the BW map because they got worse, rather because everyone around them got better. I know it may be blasphemous to say, but even though MVP never had any great accomplishments in BW like July or Boxer or Nada, his level of play at the time he switched was higher than aforementioned players' levels at their peaks. MVP was better at BW than July or Boxer or Nada, but so was everyone else he was playing against so he never had the results of those players. It's similar to Fruitdealer in SC2.
All right, I understand. Well I definitely hope to see some top BW players moving over then. Honestly MVP looks so damn strong, but what's clear as well is that we're not even seeing close to the skill ceiling in SC2, particularly in the late game. Would be nice to see some BW mechanics really revolutionise it.
Still, I need to see it to believe it!
Edit: Incidentally, anybody know the skill level of MMA in BW?
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I don't know what all the fuss is about. I would enjoy watching these guys play exhibition matches in either game. It will be cool to see if the SC2 fanbase takes to them even if they play BW at BlizzCon.
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On October 18 2011 09:09 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:44 bardtown wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw I think BW players are probably a bit apprehensive because if these players were to switch to SC2, it would be a huge blow to the future of BW. Still, I don't think that justifies the ganking of legitimate comments of people who want to see them switch. Also, it's just a fallacious argument to say that a BW player who was ranked above MVP in BW will be able to outcompete him in SC2. To say that is to completely ignore the level of MVP's play. Nada, Boxer and July were top BW players, but they're not really close to MVP in SC2. Throughout SC:BW's history, the level of play continually increased. Boxer used to be the best, but even at his best he couldn't compete with the top pros nowadays. Nada took over the reigns after Boxer and he was the best for a while, but the level of play continued to increase. These guys didn't drop off the BW map because they got worse, rather because everyone around them got better. I know it may be blasphemous to say, but even though MVP never had any great accomplishments in BW like July or Boxer or Nada, his level of play at the time he switched was higher than aforementioned players' levels at their peaks. MVP was better at BW than July or Boxer or Nada, but so was everyone else he was playing against so he never had the results of those players. It's similar to how Fruitdealer was champion of SC2 until others were able to surpass him. In FD's case, you're talking only a year so the gap is still not that great, but in the case of someone like Boxer, it's been 10 years since he was king and there is just absolutely no way he could compete against the likes of MVP in BW.
They lose passion. That's what happens. The mentality, demeanor, and determination fades. As someone noted in another thread, it's a lot harder psychologically to be a SC pro than a sports pro. It really wears you down. That's why no pro to date has been a great player their whole career. Even the legends had 3-4 years in them, and then they got burnt out. It's very easy to adapt to the "increased level of play" (excluding massive strategy developments that are game breaking for a bit of time, but these were quite rare), and guys like Nada and iloveoov and Bisu did that as the game was changing quite a bit during their times. That isn't the matter. The matter is the wear and tear damage :S. If Nada had a psyche of titanium, he'd still be one of the top BW players and would probably be Flash's big rival. Unfortunately, Nada really got worn down over the years as nearly all players have. They lose the mentality and will to be the very best whether they like it or not. :/
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Does this have something to do with the mysterious Quantic Gaming "big deal"? JD, Bisu, Fantasy, Jangbi to QxG??
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I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
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On October 18 2011 09:15 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:09 Devolved wrote:On October 18 2011 08:44 bardtown wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw I think BW players are probably a bit apprehensive because if these players were to switch to SC2, it would be a huge blow to the future of BW. Still, I don't think that justifies the ganking of legitimate comments of people who want to see them switch. Also, it's just a fallacious argument to say that a BW player who was ranked above MVP in BW will be able to outcompete him in SC2. To say that is to completely ignore the level of MVP's play. Nada, Boxer and July were top BW players, but they're not really close to MVP in SC2. Throughout SC:BW's history, the level of play continually increased. Boxer used to be the best, but even at his best he couldn't compete with the top pros nowadays. Nada took over the reigns after Boxer and he was the best for a while, but the level of play continued to increase. These guys didn't drop off the BW map because they got worse, rather because everyone around them got better. I know it may be blasphemous to say, but even though MVP never had any great accomplishments in BW like July or Boxer or Nada, his level of play at the time he switched was higher than aforementioned players' levels at their peaks. MVP was better at BW than July or Boxer or Nada, but so was everyone else he was playing against so he never had the results of those players. It's similar to Fruitdealer in SC2. All right, I understand. Well I definitely hope to see some top BW players moving over then. Honestly MVP looks so damn strong, but what's clear as well is that we're not even seeing close to the skill ceiling in SC2, particularly in the late game. Would be nice to see some BW mechanics really revolutionise it. Still, I need to see it to believe it! Edit: Incidentally, anybody know the skill level of MMA in BW?
MMA was a low-level B-teamer in BW. Until I started looking at SC2 players on TLPD I didn't actually realize how many ex-BW pros there were playing under different IDs.
On October 18 2011 09:22 snotboogie wrote:
Does this have something to do with the mysterious Quantic Gaming "big deal"? JD, Bisu, Fantasy, Jangbi to QxG??
QxG must be rich as hell.
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On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
Maybe if they slipped a roofie in their drink first >_>
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I kinda think that this has less to do with BW/SC2 and more to do with the "peace treaty" that Blizzard and KeSPA recently came to. In my mind Blizzard is just recognizing that well, they made BW, and its kinda a big deal still in Korea.
EDIT: and oh yeah. Some showmatches with these guys would be AWESOME.
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On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
Out of 100 games a piece, maybe one or two (both probably done through cheese).
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On October 18 2011 09:15 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:09 Devolved wrote:On October 18 2011 08:44 bardtown wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw I think BW players are probably a bit apprehensive because if these players were to switch to SC2, it would be a huge blow to the future of BW. Still, I don't think that justifies the ganking of legitimate comments of people who want to see them switch. Also, it's just a fallacious argument to say that a BW player who was ranked above MVP in BW will be able to outcompete him in SC2. To say that is to completely ignore the level of MVP's play. Nada, Boxer and July were top BW players, but they're not really close to MVP in SC2. Throughout SC:BW's history, the level of play continually increased. Boxer used to be the best, but even at his best he couldn't compete with the top pros nowadays. Nada took over the reigns after Boxer and he was the best for a while, but the level of play continued to increase. These guys didn't drop off the BW map because they got worse, rather because everyone around them got better. I know it may be blasphemous to say, but even though MVP never had any great accomplishments in BW like July or Boxer or Nada, his level of play at the time he switched was higher than aforementioned players' levels at their peaks. MVP was better at BW than July or Boxer or Nada, but so was everyone else he was playing against so he never had the results of those players. It's similar to Fruitdealer in SC2. All right, I understand. Well I definitely hope to see some top BW players moving over then. Honestly MVP looks so damn strong, but what's clear as well is that we're not even seeing close to the skill ceiling in SC2, particularly in the late game. Would be nice to see some BW mechanics really revolutionise it. Still, I need to see it to believe it! Edit: Incidentally, anybody know the skill level of MMA in BW?
And here's the counter argument, Ganzi and Supernova were both A-team Terrans in BW, while MMA was a B-teamer. The background helps, but it isn't a sure-fire thing.
What's funny is how many of the old BW players switched *from* Terran (Genius, Idra, Losira). Can you imagine how much qq-ing we'd have about Terran over-representation in SC2 if they hadn't race switched?
Then again, MKP was a Protoss in BW. So imagine how different things would be if he hadn't switched over.
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I'm going to dodge this debate as much as possible but I was just genuinely curious, what do the BW fans think of the BW pros that have switched to SC2? I'd imagine you all still love the legends like July, Nada, Boxer etc. but I could be wrong. And what about the players like MVP or MC (iron) who were on the rise and then switched?
EDIT: I guess I could've picked a better term than "on the rise" for MVP and MC, I just wanted to provide examples that weren't total legends :p
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On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
Absolutely not LOL
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On October 18 2011 09:27 Loki57 wrote:
I'm going to dodge this debate as much as possible but I was just genuinely curious, what do the BW fans think of the BW pros that have switched to SC2? I'd imagine you all still love the legends like July, Nada, Boxer etc. but I could be wrong. And what about the players like MVP or MC (iron) who were on the rise and then switched?
to me i think sc2 has a much lower skills ceiling. i don't think the likes of flash/jd/bisu would be as successful as they are in bw.
or i could just be totally wrong
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I'm with Blizzard on this one. They invited four players I like and none that I don't like. Good job.
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On October 18 2011 09:15 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:09 Devolved wrote:On October 18 2011 08:44 bardtown wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw I think BW players are probably a bit apprehensive because if these players were to switch to SC2, it would be a huge blow to the future of BW. Still, I don't think that justifies the ganking of legitimate comments of people who want to see them switch. Also, it's just a fallacious argument to say that a BW player who was ranked above MVP in BW will be able to outcompete him in SC2. To say that is to completely ignore the level of MVP's play. Nada, Boxer and July were top BW players, but they're not really close to MVP in SC2. Throughout SC:BW's history, the level of play continually increased. Boxer used to be the best, but even at his best he couldn't compete with the top pros nowadays. Nada took over the reigns after Boxer and he was the best for a while, but the level of play continued to increase. These guys didn't drop off the BW map because they got worse, rather because everyone around them got better. I know it may be blasphemous to say, but even though MVP never had any great accomplishments in BW like July or Boxer or Nada, his level of play at the time he switched was higher than aforementioned players' levels at their peaks. MVP was better at BW than July or Boxer or Nada, but so was everyone else he was playing against so he never had the results of those players. It's similar to Fruitdealer in SC2. All right, I understand. Well I definitely hope to see some top BW players moving over then. Honestly MVP looks so damn strong, but what's clear as well is that we're not even seeing close to the skill ceiling in SC2, particularly in the late game. Would be nice to see some BW mechanics really revolutionise it. Still, I need to see it to believe it!
I don't think anyone thinks there's a literal skill ceiling but the way the game is designed means how much of their actions are actually interesting to watch? That's the problem. Flash in SC2 couldn't do anything totally different he'd just play more solidly what you already see. They can only do one thing at once still it's not like they can micro tons of individual units around perfectly, it's not about pure APM/multitasking - of course there will be always something to use it on.
The difference being in BW people MUST dedicate a ton of their attention to macro and other additional actions; this means only the best mechanically players manage to seem like they have control over their main army all the time. Spellcasting is hard so seeing it done well is more special moments, and players in general are constantly under pressure to not slip up macro and sometimes 5+ control groups of units that can die very quickly when not watched/microed. SC2 players immediately have a lot this pressure removed, macro almost entirely, meaning attention on their main army (which is now even possible on a single control group) is far easier and less room for mistakes.
I'm not even in favour of MBS and other such features in the game, of course it was inevitable they would be in it. It's just worked well for BW and it's the reason why the game is still strategically changing at the top level 11 years in, about 9 years since the last balance changes. If it was mechnically simple the whole history of it as an eSport would have never happened.
On October 18 2011 09:27 Loki57 wrote:
I'm going to dodge this debate as much as possible but I was just genuinely curious, what do the BW fans think of the BW pros that have switched to SC2? I'd imagine you all still love the legends like July, Nada, Boxer etc. but I could be wrong. And what about the players like MVP or MC (iron) who were on the rise and then switched?
To me i don't care much about the older players leaving, none of them were even particularly active at the time... don't blame them for switching to a game they can potentially compete in easier, although it's somewhat annoying they would jump ship so quickly. I don't think any of them would have troubles money wise staying in BW at least as coaches. Like if you love a game why switch? Flash strikes me as a person who would not infact enjoy the sequel for example. As for the other guys, well i have no thoughts on it. IrOn was more known for his dancing/rapping on a show than his games and MVP was getting better prehaps but stopped before being able to show much, he was exactly who you'd probably point out as just the totally average A-team Terran. It's hard to tell if he would have got further or he peaked... i think MC probably wouldn't have got further.
But i don't know about anyone else, but to me - it's not about the players. Jaedong is maybe my favourite player, and he's likable outside of the game, but i like him for his amazing play in BW, that nobody else could even do. Him in a different game i would not be a fan for unless that turned out to be similarly impressive, and since the game itself doesn't impress me in the same way that won't happen.
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On October 18 2011 09:27 Loki57 wrote:
I'm going to dodge this debate as much as possible but I was just genuinely curious, what do the BW fans think of the BW pros that have switched to SC2? I'd imagine you all still love the legends like July, Nada, Boxer etc. but I could be wrong. And what about the players like MVP or MC (iron) who were on the rise and then switched?
I really don't think anyone except Realpenguin ever considered MVP or MC "on the rise". MVP was just a decent player and MC was a nobody that beat Effort once.
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WhiteRa and those older BW players will form a SUPER TEAM! :O
Take notes, I called it here.
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On October 18 2011 09:31 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:27 Loki57 wrote:
I'm going to dodge this debate as much as possible but I was just genuinely curious, what do the BW fans think of the BW pros that have switched to SC2? I'd imagine you all still love the legends like July, Nada, Boxer etc. but I could be wrong. And what about the players like MVP or MC (iron) who were on the rise and then switched? I really don't think anyone except Realpenguin ever considered MVP or MC "on the rise". MVP was just a decent player and MC was a nobody that beat Effort once.
Well, I was just trying to give a decent example of people that weren't massive names like Boxer/July/Nada. If they weren't on the rise then alright :p
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On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
Not even in their dreams.
On topic though, wow this is awesome! Too bad I won't be able to be there...or any Blizzcon come to think of it.. 
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EPT
