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On October 18 2011 09:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:09 Devolved wrote:On October 18 2011 08:44 bardtown wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
OK I'm sure i'm running the risk of getting superflamed here but I read this ENTIRE thread and now my interest in this sc2/BW debate is truly piqued. I never played BW. I played original starcraft in like 1999 when it was new a few times only b/c back then I played war2 religiously and wanted to see what it was like. My opinion was meh where the bloodlust. Then my RTS gaming then took a 10+ year break so I obv missed out on all the BW greatness, which I don't at all doubt for a second.
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? I mean it seems to me Its really an acidic, vehement hatred that seems to say sc2 has the complexity and depth of a well done iphone app RTS. Shouldn't we save our collective ridicule for people who play wow and call of duty? I just wanna know some of the fundamental reasons why the old guard so despises these so-called 'sc2 kids'. Maybe link me a thread or two, I'd really like to know more about this. I really do love sc2 and I want to know why such a large number of die-hards with intrinsically valid opinions and viewpoints do not. I mean I've heard some things. I get that there are the skill ceiling implications w/ APM, control groups are simple, no SCV autorallying to mine, 1a blob vs blob engagements etc etc. But it has to be more than that...? Right??
Anyways imo whatever you game Esports fighting ftw I think BW players are probably a bit apprehensive because if these players were to switch to SC2, it would be a huge blow to the future of BW. Still, I don't think that justifies the ganking of legitimate comments of people who want to see them switch. Also, it's just a fallacious argument to say that a BW player who was ranked above MVP in BW will be able to outcompete him in SC2. To say that is to completely ignore the level of MVP's play. Nada, Boxer and July were top BW players, but they're not really close to MVP in SC2. Throughout SC:BW's history, the level of play continually increased. Boxer used to be the best, but even at his best he couldn't compete with the top pros nowadays. Nada took over the reigns after Boxer and he was the best for a while, but the level of play continued to increase. These guys didn't drop off the BW map because they got worse, rather because everyone around them got better. I know it may be blasphemous to say, but even though MVP never had any great accomplishments in BW like July or Boxer or Nada, his level of play at the time he switched was higher than aforementioned players' levels at their peaks. MVP was better at BW than July or Boxer or Nada, but so was everyone else he was playing against so he never had the results of those players. It's similar to how Fruitdealer was champion of SC2 until others were able to surpass him. In FD's case, you're talking only a year so the gap is still not that great, but in the case of someone like Boxer, it's been 10 years since he was king and there is just absolutely no way he could compete against the likes of MVP in BW. They lose passion. That's what happens. The mentality, demeanor, and determination fades. As someone noted in another thread, it's a lot harder psychologically to be a SC pro than a sports pro. It really wears you down. That's why no pro to date has been a great player their whole career. Even the legends had 3-4 years in them, and then they got burnt out. It's very easy to adapt to the "increased level of play" (excluding massive strategy developments that are game breaking for a bit of time, but these were quite rare), and guys like Nada and iloveoov and Bisu did that as the game was changing quite a bit during their times. That isn't the matter. The matter is the wear and tear damage :S. If Nada had a psyche of titanium, he'd still be one of the top BW players and would probably be Flash's big rival. Unfortunately, Nada really got worn down over the years as nearly all players have. They lose the mentality and will to be the very best whether they like it or not. :/
That seems a bit presumptive to make this claim for all the former greats. It may have been the case for some of them, but there's really nothing to base this assumption on or prove it unless you have interviews with the players that claim this, in which case I would love to read them.
Boxer is a good example of someone that doesn't fit this mold. He was notorious for flaws in his macro, but made it up for it with preparation and innovative builds suited for specific opponents. Usually, with his good micro, he was able to secure an advantage with these builds that allowed him to win even with less-than-stellar macro. I think his BW downfall came not from a lack of determination, but a lack of skill and mechanics. Players started to realize that you can't out-think Boxer, but you can outplay him, and they did that by playing solid, safe build orders that took advantage of their mechanics while being relatively safe against Boxer's abnormal strategies.
Nothing has ever suggested to me that Boxer has lost his passion or drive. At this last MLG, there's a great photo of him practicing after the playday had finished and every computer was empty except the one he was practicing on. I feel that Nada is similar in this regard. I have never seen or read an interview by him that would indicate otherwise. In fact, everything I've heard out of him has been positive, even stating that this is the career path that he wants, and he plans on playing competitive games for the rest of his life.
What you're saying takes away credit from the pros that are currently on top and you're basically just making excuses as to why the current pros are ultimately better than the old legends. The only thing you can really go on are the results and what the players themselves have expressed. However, I could see your mental attitude excuse playing out for some pros, like maybe SaviOr, but I find it a stretch to make that presumption for all or even most of the former greats.
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Boxer is quite the exception, he has often said during interviews that he'd be a fps progamer if he felt it. Dude is the grandaddy of eSports and will try many games.
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This is awesome I'm so sad I can't go this year with all these amazing people going + the GSL final
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On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much??
most of us don't LOATHE sc2. but we don't appreciate it when the sc2 crowd rolls through talking about how it's only a matter of time until our favorite players switch to sc2. the ignorance is laughable, because they talk about how "huge" sc2 is and don't realize that sc2 teams are dirt poor compared to bw teams, how most korean sc2 players (even the good ones) don't even make a salary while top bw players (the ones that "should switch to SC2 because it's bigger" command six-figure salaries.
that's why people lash out. The sc2 people who provoke it probably don't have any bad intentions (except for the trolls). I can understand why you'd want to see what TBLS and other top bw players could do in your game.
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On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
Not all current BW A-team players would adapt well to SC2. I can see the current SC2 roster defeating the likes of Kal, Stats, Best (solid BW A teamers) should those transition.
However Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are basically considered prodigies of Brood War. Give them two months to practice SC2, and the current SC2 roster will bend their knees.
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On October 18 2011 09:34 Existential wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? Not even in their dreams.
Haha, yeah, their dreams were probably more along the lines of nightmares of Bisu piloting their commercial jet through psi storm hell as he looks back, laughs, and files his nails while they plummet to their imminent demise. Then, just before the plane crashes, Bisu hops onto his shuttle with a "peace out" or its Korean equivalent.
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On October 18 2011 09:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
They lose passion. That's what happens. The mentality, demeanor, and determination fades. As someone noted in another thread, it's a lot harder psychologically to be a SC pro than a sports pro. It really wears you down. That's why no pro to date has been a great player their whole career. Even the legends had 3-4 years in them, and then they got burnt out. It's very easy to adapt to the "increased level of play" (excluding massive strategy developments that are game breaking for a bit of time, but these were quite rare), and guys like Nada and iloveoov and Bisu did that as the game was changing quite a bit during their times. That isn't the matter. The matter is the wear and tear damage :S. If Nada had a psyche of titanium, he'd still be one of the top BW players and would probably be Flash's big rival. Unfortunately, Nada really got worn down over the years as nearly all players have. They lose the mentality and will to be the very best whether they like it or not. :/
July and his spread out Golden Mouse and his GSL performances beg to differ.
On October 18 2011 09:42 Megaman_X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? even Idra will say no
Given what we have seen lately, Idra will forfeit those matches beforehand. SC2 needs more time to grow on the foreign end. Lets say tomorrow everyone switches to SC2. Every pro house installs SC2 and begins practicing it. The money, talent and practice mentality present in Korea right now....say goodbye to the foreign scene. Give the foreign scene some time to pull ahead and establish their niche before unleashing the Koreans.
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On October 18 2011 10:14 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? Not all current BW A-team players would adapt well to SC2. I can see the current SC2 roster defeating the likes of Kal, Stats, Best (solid BW A teamers) should those transition. However Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are basically considered prodigies of Brood War. Give them two months to practice SC2, and the current SC2 roster will bend their knees.
This is my feeling as well. There's certainly not a 1-to-1 conversion of BW skill to SC2 skill. For example, SangHo is one of the best BW players to switch, and his results have been relatively unremarkable (to the best of my knowledge). However, the top players are a cut above the rest for a reason. It's hard to imagine them being anything but the best were they to switch.
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On October 18 2011 10:17 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:34 Existential wrote:On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? Not even in their dreams. Haha, yeah, their dreams were probably more along the lines of nightmares of Bisu piloting their commercial jet through psi storm hell as he looks back, laughs, and files his nails while they plummet to their imminent demise. Then, just before the plane crashes, Bisu hops onto his shuttle with a "peace out" or its Korean equivalent.
i like the nail filing part
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On October 18 2011 10:13 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? most of us don't LOATHE sc2. but we don't appreciate it when the sc2 crowd rolls through talking about how it's only a matter of time until our favorite players switch to sc2. the ignorance is laughable, because they talk about how "huge" sc2 is and don't realize that sc2 teams are dirt poor compared to bw teams, how most korean sc2 players (even the good ones) don't even make a salary while top bw players (the ones that "should switch to SC2 because it's bigger" command six-figure salaries. that's why people lash out. The sc2 people who provoke it probably don't have any bad intentions (except for the trolls). I can understand why you'd want to see what TBLS and other top bw players could do in your game.
Apparently not making the bw -> sc2 switch means we loathe it... lol. If i may generalise the bw community which i am a part of, i would say that the majority of just don't care very much for sc2, we nothing it.
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On October 18 2011 10:23 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 10:13 Gann1 wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? most of us don't LOATHE sc2. but we don't appreciate it when the sc2 crowd rolls through talking about how it's only a matter of time until our favorite players switch to sc2. the ignorance is laughable, because they talk about how "huge" sc2 is and don't realize that sc2 teams are dirt poor compared to bw teams, how most korean sc2 players (even the good ones) don't even make a salary while top bw players (the ones that "should switch to SC2 because it's bigger" command six-figure salaries. that's why people lash out. The sc2 people who provoke it probably don't have any bad intentions (except for the trolls). I can understand why you'd want to see what TBLS and other top bw players could do in your game. Apparently not making the bw -> sc2 switch means we loathe it... lol. If i may generalise the bw community which i am a part of, i would say that the majority of just don't care very much for sc2, we nothing it.
agreed. if sen quit sc2 i'd stop following sc2 completely. FPS time
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On October 18 2011 10:21 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 10:14 dukethegold wrote:On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? Not all current BW A-team players would adapt well to SC2. I can see the current SC2 roster defeating the likes of Kal, Stats, Best (solid BW A teamers) should those transition. However Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are basically considered prodigies of Brood War. Give them two months to practice SC2, and the current SC2 roster will bend their knees. This is my feeling as well. There's certainly not a 1-to-1 conversion of BW skill to SC2 skill. For example, SangHo is one of the best BW players to switch, and his results have been relatively unremarkable (to the best of my knowledge). However, the top players are a cut above the rest for a reason. It's hard to imagine them being anything but the best were they to switch.
Hmmm...SangHo...SangHo...who was that in BW? [looks up name in liquipedia] Oh, Ryan[shield]. He was basically only good at 2v2 and they stopped doing 2v2 a while ago so he was pretty much useless in BW. He was probably most famous for making like 50 cannons at his ramp off one-base during a 2v2. Basically, I think he was pretty much relegated to the duties of practice partner on his BW team.
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Yaaay! I love all four of those guys, looking forward to watching them play some BW, but SC2 exhibition matches with them would be really interesting too.
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On October 18 2011 10:27 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 10:23 ShadeR wrote:On October 18 2011 10:13 Gann1 wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? most of us don't LOATHE sc2. but we don't appreciate it when the sc2 crowd rolls through talking about how it's only a matter of time until our favorite players switch to sc2. the ignorance is laughable, because they talk about how "huge" sc2 is and don't realize that sc2 teams are dirt poor compared to bw teams, how most korean sc2 players (even the good ones) don't even make a salary while top bw players (the ones that "should switch to SC2 because it's bigger" command six-figure salaries. that's why people lash out. The sc2 people who provoke it probably don't have any bad intentions (except for the trolls). I can understand why you'd want to see what TBLS and other top bw players could do in your game. Apparently not making the bw -> sc2 switch means we loathe it... lol. If i may generalise the bw community which i am a part of, i would say that the majority of just don't care very much for sc2, we nothing it. agreed. if sen quit sc2 i'd stop following sc2 completely. FPS time
Yeah. This. This sums up my opinion better than most of my posts thus far.
Though I am playing 2v2s with Sheep. That's hilarious.
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On October 18 2011 10:32 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 10:21 Rostam wrote:On October 18 2011 10:14 dukethegold wrote:On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? Not all current BW A-team players would adapt well to SC2. I can see the current SC2 roster defeating the likes of Kal, Stats, Best (solid BW A teamers) should those transition. However Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are basically considered prodigies of Brood War. Give them two months to practice SC2, and the current SC2 roster will bend their knees. This is my feeling as well. There's certainly not a 1-to-1 conversion of BW skill to SC2 skill. For example, SangHo is one of the best BW players to switch, and his results have been relatively unremarkable (to the best of my knowledge). However, the top players are a cut above the rest for a reason. It's hard to imagine them being anything but the best were they to switch. Hmmm...SangHo...SangHo...who was that in BW? [looks up name in liquipedia] Oh, Ryan[shield]. He was basically only good at 2v2 and they stopped doing 2v2 a while ago so he was pretty much useless in BW. He was probably most famous for making like 50 cannons at his ramp off one-base during a 2v2. Basically, I think he was pretty much relegated to the duties of practice partner on his BW team.
Sangho had a sweet base trade pvp with guemchi (who had a shot at sc2 but left because he didn't feel it had adequete professionalism) and was wronglyfully shafted as a match-fixer.
So thats 3 things about Sangho lol..
On October 18 2011 10:35 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 10:27 Doraemon wrote:On October 18 2011 10:23 ShadeR wrote:On October 18 2011 10:13 Gann1 wrote:On October 18 2011 08:37 McPricE wrote:
Now, riddle me this - why do BW aficionados LOATHE sc2 so much?? most of us don't LOATHE sc2. but we don't appreciate it when the sc2 crowd rolls through talking about how it's only a matter of time until our favorite players switch to sc2. the ignorance is laughable, because they talk about how "huge" sc2 is and don't realize that sc2 teams are dirt poor compared to bw teams, how most korean sc2 players (even the good ones) don't even make a salary while top bw players (the ones that "should switch to SC2 because it's bigger" command six-figure salaries. that's why people lash out. The sc2 people who provoke it probably don't have any bad intentions (except for the trolls). I can understand why you'd want to see what TBLS and other top bw players could do in your game. Apparently not making the bw -> sc2 switch means we loathe it... lol. If i may generalise the bw community which i am a part of, i would say that the majority of just don't care very much for sc2, we nothing it. agreed. if sen quit sc2 i'd stop following sc2 completely. FPS time Yeah. This. This sums up my opinion better than most of my posts thus far. Though I am playing 2v2s with Sheep. That's hilarious.
This summer im pretty much going to game the shit out of BF3 and watch bw lol.
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On October 18 2011 10:35 ShadeR wrote:
This summer im pretty much going to game the shit out of BF3 and watch bw lol.
Was going to mention you plan pretty far ahead until I realize you were in Australia! Go aussies
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Awwww yeah! This is awesome!
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Perhaps the Starcraft event in general will use BW to show new SC2 fans what 10 years of refinement looks like. Although, I still don't understand Blizzard's business interest in promoting both. They put themselves in the middle of SC2, but SC1 is anyone's (KeSPA's) game.
Maybe there will be "fun" show matches, where SC2 pros play BW for the fans and BW pros play SC2. Like Huk vs. Boxer kind of thing.
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On October 18 2011 10:20 stork4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
They lose passion. That's what happens. The mentality, demeanor, and determination fades. As someone noted in another thread, it's a lot harder psychologically to be a SC pro than a sports pro. It really wears you down. That's why no pro to date has been a great player their whole career. Even the legends had 3-4 years in them, and then they got burnt out. It's very easy to adapt to the "increased level of play" (excluding massive strategy developments that are game breaking for a bit of time, but these were quite rare), and guys like Nada and iloveoov and Bisu did that as the game was changing quite a bit during their times. That isn't the matter. The matter is the wear and tear damage :S. If Nada had a psyche of titanium, he'd still be one of the top BW players and would probably be Flash's big rival. Unfortunately, Nada really got worn down over the years as nearly all players have. They lose the mentality and will to be the very best whether they like it or not. :/ July and his spread out Golden Mouse and his GSL performances beg to differ. Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:42 Megaman_X wrote:On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu? even Idra will say no Given what we have seen lately, Idra will forfeit those matches beforehand. SC2 needs more time to grow on the foreign end. Lets say tomorrow everyone switches to SC2. Every pro house installs SC2 and begins practicing it. The money, talent and practice mentality present in Korea right now....say goodbye to the foreign scene. Give the foreign scene some time to pull ahead and establish their niche before unleashing the Koreans.
Congrats on finding 1 exception out of 100s. Making an argument out of one exception is about the most flawed logic and reasoning one can come up with. You didn't really think before you posted, did you? But wait a second, no, no, your claim is still wrong.
His OSL wins were in a 4 year period and in between, he was consistently one of the top players. In that period of 3 OSL wins, he also had two 2nd places in OSLs, so it's not like he was a B-team player between OSL wins or something like you're making him out to be. After that, he fell in the condition described my last post. He just became really bad, like 100x worse than at any point before the 2008 OSL win. He just lost the mentality and determination and passion, and it was really obvious.
In any case, that's a long-winded way of saying poor argument is poor. In other words, I'm still correct. If July were the exception, he'd still be rolling heads in BW to this day.
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On October 18 2011 09:24 TooN wrote:
I didn't follow BW.. but I wanna know the foreigner perspective.
Would idra or nony be able to take games off Flash, Jaedong, Or Bisu?
not even in their dreams LMAO
maybe in a game like sc2 where you can go for a 1-1-1 timing but in a game like bw that actually rewards greater skill differential, there's no way idra/nony can take a game off F/J/B.
on bnet attack, stats (who was the top proleague protoss last season after bisu) said he may beat flash once out of 10 games. and for those who follow bw, they'd know stats is probably an infinite times better at bw than idra/nony ever was at their peaks.
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EPT
