• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:08
CEST 07:08
KST 14:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL54Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Unit and Spell Similarities Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 707 users

If starcraft 2 only changed the interface.... - Page 4

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11 12 Next All
Ghin
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States2391 Posts
May 20 2005 22:29 GMT
#61
Tal, I will say it very simply.
The changes you want to implement will make the game not fun.
Legalize drugs and murder.
TreY
Profile Joined March 2004
United States997 Posts
May 20 2005 22:31 GMT
#62
Then you need an upgrade to play the game for you?
Team [LighT]
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-05-20 22:59:35
May 20 2005 22:50 GMT
#63
On May 20 2005 17:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
There is a reason stuff like this gets shot down. That is because War3 used this philosophy and that game frankly sucks. Taking out the "mundane tedious boring" stuff sounds like a great idea because it will give players more time to micro, but it's one of those things that sounds good on paper until you try it out.

You are completely and totally wrong, Warcraft 3's interface is the best thing about it. The things that make it bad (compared to SC) are things like the heroes, creeps and small armies, not the interface. Also, I would expect most interface improvements to SC to only make the game more interesting at every level, since more time can be spent doing interesting stuff, carrying out tactics, etc, rather than doing mundane crap like sending workers to mine. Just because most of you win most of your games by doing simple stuff faster than your opponent doesn't mean that improving the interface would make the game less interesting; quite the opposite.

edit: having to do tons of clicks to carry out mundane tasks is *not* what makes SC a great game, what makes it great is the mechanics, variety and balance.

So what if some current good players would start to not be so good if the interface was improved? Smarter and hence more interesting players would rise to the top instead. We might even see an increase in the rate of strategic innovation, units that are currently considered too fiddly such as queens might be used more, etc.

edit2: a new version of SC with better graphics and interface could also cause a big resurgence of interest in the multiplayer game, which would be great for the community even if most returning players would be no challenge for those who have been playing continously since 1998.

edit3: and if changing the interface did make some parts of the game "too easy" in some sense, then it would be better to adjust the gameplay mechanics to be even more subtle and interesting than they are now, rather than to just arbitarily make the interface harder to use and call it skill.

I think many of you are far too resistant to change. Chess didn't orginally have the "Queen" piece, but I don't think anyone is arguing that adding it didn't make the game more interesting. And for that matter, almost everyone thinks that BW made SC better, and that was quite a major change compared to just improving the interface.
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
May 20 2005 23:05 GMT
#64
On May 21 2005 07:29 Ghin wrote:
Tal, I will say it very simply.
The changes you want to implement will make the game not fun.

Would reducing the interface to Dune 2 levels make the game more fun? If not, why do you assume that the current interface is at the "perfect" level of ease/difficulty already?
Elvin_vn
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
Vietnam2038 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-05-20 23:27:00
May 20 2005 23:26 GMT
#65
There should be two modes:

Novice mode: Most of the things is automaticly like whatevery he said
Expert mode: Keep the multitasking.

Expert mode is used in tournament, novice is not accepted. Just an idea.
do not agrue with idiots, they will pull you down to their level and beat you with their experiences
Oxygen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Canada3581 Posts
May 20 2005 23:27 GMT
#66
edit: having to do tons of clicks to carry out mundane tasks is *not* what makes SC a great game, what makes it great is the mechanics, variety and balance.


omg, first Tal, now someone else -_-;

Tal is asking to take away macro. Entirely (having units queued by themselves). If you take away macro, you are taking away half of the game and making this game even WORSE than WC3, since it'll be WAY TOO DAMN EASY. Stop trying to perfect a game that's nearly perfect with retarded ideas. There is a reason why BW is still beating WC3 with a 2:1 ratio in terms of popularity (according to WCG polls).

I'm not sure how to explain to you that you're not making interface changes, you're changing the entire game. You wouldn't add *strategy*, since strategy is pretty much at it's peak. You would just take away from the game.

And macroing isn't boring. It's what seperates good players from Tal-players.





Dont drink and derive. TSL: Made with Balls.
pooper-scooper
Profile Joined May 2003
United States3108 Posts
May 20 2005 23:31 GMT
#67
I categorically disagree with all of your changes. There is not more to say
Good...Bad... Im the guy with the gun
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1015 Posts
May 20 2005 23:40 GMT
#68
Lol Tal-players ^_^
''Macroing isn't boring''- do you really actually enjoy spamming buttons which you shouldn't need to spam? Also you don't understand me properly. I don't want to take away macro, I just want to make it easier. Choosing what units to build, what amounts to build, what production facilities to get and when and where to expand would all remain. Everything that required thought would remain. Half of the game is not being taken away
This too damn easy argument is bollocks. Many many games have easy 'interfaces', (chess, Counterstrike, football ) but that doesn't detract AT ALL from the strategy and skill. It adds to it. The only ''skill' that is being taken away is the ability to hammer your keyboard fast, which me (and others) hate being such a big part of a brilliantly involving real time strategy game.

Thanks for support from Gravity, you make some of the stuff I'm saying much clearer.

I also thought of another thing to change in the interface:

When you have multiple spellcasters selected and use a spell that does not stack (e. g d-web/storm/dark swarm/etc) only 1 spell gets cast. A lot of the time in the strategy forum people ask why Protoss players don't ever use corsairs to d-web Terran pushes. One of the main factors cited is it's too hard to micro (because of shitty interface). This would open up more tactical oppurtunites.
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
Oxygen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Canada3581 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-05-21 00:19:27
May 21 2005 00:18 GMT
#69
Okay, you officially don't know half of what you're talking about. Sorry, but become a b+ player on PGTour, THEN talk about implementing some of these changes. You'll see how wrong you are.


''Macroing isn't boring''- do you really actually enjoy spamming buttons which you shouldn't need to spam? Also you don't understand me properly. I don't want to take away macro, I just want to make it easier. Choosing what units to build, what amounts to build, what production facilities to get and when and where to expand would all remain. Everything that required thought would remain. Half of the game is not being taken away


A way to make Macro easier would be to allow you to customize hotkeys.

You realize that there would be no difference between Oov's unit production and yours? What the hell? Are you blind?

I've gotten 3-4 new people to play BW, and I've been helping them, and they all tell me that "wtf, I've been playing for three months and I still can't beat you. I've mastered every other game in less than a week. BW is different. I'll keep playing BW."

Support from gravity isn't helping your cause. If people would actually bother to read his post (once he said that he agreed with you I doubt anyone wasted their time on it), they'd read this:


And for that matter, almost everyone thinks that BW made SC better, and that was quite a major change compared to just improving the interface.


Dude, adding seven units is incomparibly small to changing the ENTIRE game. You are taking away the "boring" part, and giving everyone Oov macro. Tal doesn't play the game on a high enough level to understand the consequences of any of the changes he's talking about implementing. Good players like Twisted, Midian, Ret, who frequent this forum, haven't even bothered posting in this thread (I didn't see anyone, anyway) because they know even more than the rest of us how big a change what you're suggesting would be, and how bad a change it would be.

And as for this:

When you have multiple spellcasters selected and use a spell that does not stack (e. g d-web/storm/dark swarm/etc) only 1 spell gets cast. A lot of the time in the strategy forum people ask why Protoss players don't ever use corsairs to d-web Terran pushes. One of the main factors cited is it's too hard to micro (because of shitty interface). This would open up more tactical oppurtunites.


No. Fuck it, I don't think you even understand what is being said to you. No one here wants a game where they can just sit the fuck back and eat their instant noodles in peace while all they have to press is two-three buttons.

Let's just change the entire game:

- Auto split at the beginning (Yes, very good idea Tal, let's remove the first basic element of micro that seperates players' skill-wise)
- Automatic macro
- Preset build orders that you can choose depending on what you scouted (OOH, STRATEGY OMGOMGM)
- Automatic scouting patterns (cause damn, if you don't know the map, that's pretty damn newb isn't it)
- Preset expanding (you can set a time to expand at and it'll do it all by itself!!)
- Automatic CC lifting to expo
- Preset wall construction (so you don't have those bad walls!!!)
- Automatic units formations (cause m&m vs lurk is way too damn ahrd!!!!!! :[:[)
- Automatic spellcasting (another great idea Tal! Let's take away the entire art of cloning! YES! NOW EVERYONE HAS THE EXACT SAME SKILL LEVEL AND ONE WEEK OF PLAY AND YOU'RE A PROGAMER, AND THUS PEOPLE WILL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT GAME BECAUSE BW WILL POSE NO CHALLENGE SINCE STRATEGIES/BUILD ORDERS/COUNTERS HAVE ALL ALREADY BEEN DETERMINED).

WC3 would be a better game.

Dont drink and derive. TSL: Made with Balls.
radiaL
Profile Joined August 2003
Andorra2690 Posts
May 21 2005 00:23 GMT
#70
WC3 does have that
its called 'smart casting'
and do you even realize that the fact that DWEB is so hard to use is part of balance?
sideproject: twitch.tv Starcraft II Viewers data - http://twitchsc2data.com/
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1015 Posts
May 21 2005 00:30 GMT
#71
It's shit like the '' art of cloning'' that shows how crap the interface is. In order to get your units to do a relatively obvious thing (e.g not utterly waste their abilities pointlessly firing 7 d-webs at one siege tank), it takes a vast amount of micro, so much that most players are advised not to even attempt such a strategy. I can't believe you think this is a 'good' part of the game.

Why in the world would one week of play make you a progamer? Even though it's obviously hyperbole, it's still bollocks. A lot of progamer skill is good strategic choices (of which there are way too many for a new player to even comprehend), and an intuition-like feel of the game, that can only be attained by playing vast amounts of games. I would guess that Boxer would still be the best with these changes implemented, due to his innovative strategies, determination and brilliant micro.

The game should be about outplaying your opponent, not outplaying the interface.
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1015 Posts
May 21 2005 00:33 GMT
#72
No I don't realise or agree that d-web being hard to use is part of balance. IIRC the SC makers initially expected the game to be played on fast instead of fastest, which kind of suggests that they thought fastest would be too fast to use all the abilities properly etc. They were right.
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2649 Posts
May 21 2005 00:34 GMT
#73
Do you know why i don't like your changes?
Because i'd master that game in 4 months, max. I'd probably be so fucking bored of micro matches i'd start playing kotor 2 or some other shit.
estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
May 21 2005 00:35 GMT
#74
[QUOTE]On May 21 2005 08:27 Oxygen wrote:
[quote] There is a reason why BW is still beating WC3 with a 2:1 ratio in terms of popularity (according to WCG polls).
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea why people keep saying this. WC3's weaknesses have nothing to do with it's interface, which is great.
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-05-21 00:38:42
May 21 2005 00:37 GMT
#75
On May 21 2005 09:18 Oxygen wrote:
NOW EVERYONE HAS THE EXACT SAME SKILL LEVEL AND ONE WEEK OF PLAY AND YOU'RE A PROGAMER, AND THUS PEOPLE WILL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT GAME BECAUSE BW WILL POSE NO CHALLENGE SINCE STRATEGIES/BUILD ORDERS/COUNTERS HAVE ALL ALREADY BEEN DETERMINED).

You are a total idiot if you think you could ever beat Iloveoov or most other top progamers no matter how much the interface was improved. I think you guys are way overestimating the importance of fast clicking to making the game interesting, what makes the game good is decisions, strategy and timing, not how fast you can clone.

If improving the interface would really destroy BW, that just proves that BW is really not a very good strategy game. I think it is.
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
May 21 2005 00:39 GMT
#76
On May 21 2005 09:34 EnDeR_ wrote:
Do you know why i don't like your changes?
Because i'd master that game in 4 months, max.

No, you wouldn't.
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-05-21 00:42:51
May 21 2005 00:42 GMT
#77
On May 21 2005 09:18 Oxygen wrote:
You realize that there would be no difference between Oov's unit production and yours? What the hell? Are you blind?

This isn't true (macro is about more than clicking as fast as possible), but if Oov only does as well as he does because he can click on factories fast (which isn't true), then he doesn't deserve to be a progamer, let alone one of the top ones. In that case his place is being falsly held up by an outdated interface design, and not by any really interesting skill.
BinaryStar
Profile Joined November 2004
Afghanistan669 Posts
May 21 2005 00:44 GMT
#78
Dear Tan,

Your suggestions are terrible.

Sincerely,

BinaryStar.
radiaL
Profile Joined August 2003
Andorra2690 Posts
May 21 2005 00:46 GMT
#79
holy shit gravity
i think you broke some fundamental laws of physics right there
sideproject: twitch.tv Starcraft II Viewers data - http://twitchsc2data.com/
Oxygen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Canada3581 Posts
May 21 2005 00:46 GMT
#80
Sigh. radial is telling me not to post replies :[

I'll address one thing then.

[QUOTE]On May 21 2005 09:35 gravity wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 21 2005 08:27 Oxygen wrote:
[quote] There is a reason why BW is still beating WC3 with a 2:1 ratio in terms of popularity (according to WCG polls).
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea why people keep saying this. WC3's weaknesses have nothing to do with it's interface, which is great.[/QUOTE]

It's not about WC3s weakness. It's about BW's strength. There's a reason why people are still playing it. S'cause people like Tal or gravity didn't design the game.

Both of you remind me of OvazioFrio.

Dont drink and derive. TSL: Made with Balls.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11 12 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Korean StarCraft League
03:00
Week 77
EnkiAlexander 95
HKG_Chickenman72
davetesta68
IntoTheiNu 59
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 252
PiLiPiLi 19
Dota 2
monkeys_forever725
NeuroSwarm145
febbydoto23
League of Legends
JimRising 833
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor94
Other Games
summit1g7870
WinterStarcraft611
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV53
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 35
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH321
• Hupsaiya 81
• Adnapsc2 1
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1402
• masondota2489
• Stunt402
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
4h 53m
RSL Revival
4h 53m
ByuN vs Cham
herO vs Reynor
FEL
10h 53m
RSL Revival
1d 4h
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
1d 6h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 12h
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.