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Milzo
France656 Posts
On May 24 2005 13:50 EntertainMe wrote:
we like hammering our keyboard, right? so im thinking maybe to make the game better, we need to add more "unnessecary keys/scenerio" into play.
1) I liked that shield idea, thought it was very creative.
2) How about now we have to press "L" every time marines shoot their ammo to reload?
3) Every landscape now takes effect not just ledges, under trees, ramps. For example in a tall grass zerglings does extra +1 dmg, in a foggy areas dark templar gains +1 armor due to its superior ability to hide
4) Above the zerg creeps, defiler does +1 second longer cloud
lol this is fun
You don't get it: it's fine as it is. It's even more than fine, it's almost perfect. Sure it could probably be possible to better some minor aspect of the game, IMO, but the risk of fucking it up is much higher than the potential rewards.
So these threads are basically pointless (not much chance that Blizzard will take them account) and boring (same ideas being thrown other and other again, be it on balance or on gameplay changes).
PS: Works perfectly now, FA. Much <3
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I think SC2 would rock if maps were affected by weather that changed throughout the game (or chosen at start of game) so speed across ground and air could differ.
like football (soccer) games
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I didn't spend the time to read thru all 12 pages... but I read your original post. It sounds like the things you are proposing will limit the number of options available to the gamer. Less options = less room for creativity. Less creativity = less fun, and less ways to improve.
The fact that you have to watch the miners, its another level to the game, you've gotta keep microing while still pumping workers/soldiers. A newbie can't do it, while an average player can. This would blur the line between the skill levels. It'll make the game easier to master. And thats not good.
Next, how about if we add a script that auto micros for the average newbie? So they can pull off boxer-level moves just by hitting a single button.
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Just to clarify my shield idea, the point is not exactly just to have "a shield", i don't care what the function be but the idea was to have pro gamers be able to for example beat 3 zelots with a single zealot if they use insane micro. Right now theres simply no 1 zelot vs 1 zelot micro, and the 5 zealot vs 5 zealot micro is not very complex(i don't belive the difference between nal ra and some A+ is really major...yes theres one but its not major).
Basicelly just bring the micro to a even higher level, not only pull back weak units behind and target weak units(talking of melee units) but also have either a "shield" function or a "dodge" function or even why not "aim" function that does more damage.
Im not sure how this would work in order to have the game balanced but im quite sure its possible to do.
My own sugestion would be simply have a hotkey "dodge" that only works when a single unit is selected. So you could have pro gamers mass press dodge everywhere while doing the old style of micro at the same time.
As long as blizz make sure the old micro is way more important than the new shield function(point is not to have pros focus everything on the shield and no longer have the old nice micro, but just have the earlier parts of micro require way more skill than before), i think it would make the gap between the nadas, oov, boxer way higher than the mumying/qoo)max and random A+ people.
Even think of having a counter button to dodge which would be "aim" and so you could have intense low ammount of unit micro between pro gamers. But as i said before its important that blizz would not put the old style of micro away. Just find some way to do this.
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I like that in BW there is the tendency between micro or macro, but both are required to do well. In a late match with battles over multiple area of the map, choosing which battles to micro requires quick strategical thinking. Ex. microing to save the main base instead of microing to save far expansion. Normally, defending an attack is easier than going on the offensive. If micro was made more acessible due to easier macro, the game would be even more defensive because defensive micro would be even better.
Most of the changes that TAL mention will probably be implemented in Starcraft 2. Why? Because it is inevitable if we look at the trend of RTS today compared to those years ago. It is the inevitable future IMO. I will be disappointed when SC2 will killed off BW and knowing SC2 isn't a better *strategical* game. I hope the developers will understand why the #2 RTS is so far off from the #1 RTS.
Right click rally is great. It has improve my game a little bit after getting use to the switch from 'R' rally to right click rally. Some future changes I think are okay is auto-make-mine workers. It should be a toggle on and off. It would be mainly for people new to the game. In theory, if left on without paying attention, there would be 200 psi worth of workers provided that people did make the depot/overlord/pylon THEMSELVES.
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There's only one thing that seriously needs to change. GET RID OF 640x480 SCREEN RESOLUTION. 1024x768 should be the minimum every monitor can display nowadays. I personally would really like to play on a 1600x1200 screen with nice resolution and a screen that shows about 30-50% more of the map.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Actually that's one of the things I dislike about newer strategy games, the units are so small because of the higher resolution haha +_+
Or they are fucking gigantic because it's all in 3d!
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how short minded some ppl here are.
Nobody can really believe that Starcraft is the perfect game, for some of us or even many it might be but this has more to do with the community and a lot of unintentional "features" of SC but we shouldnt forget that SC has also many flaws.
I have to agree that there is a lot of unnecessary stuff which just distracts from the actual game.
Making some stuff easier to use doesnt mean that u need less skill to master it or else u could say Dune 2 where u had to give every single unit a move/attack order would need more skill than SC.
If u make the interface easier it means on the other side there is more to place to integrate new stuff on which players can concentrate.
Instead of sending ur probes to mine or press thousand times a button to produce units u can rather give the player new elements to use, more unit (special) abilities or generaly more units types.
Not having to send ur probes all the time to mine means more time to do drops, to use ur units, doing actually strategic decissions instead of playing sim city.
I even go so far and say that SC needs atm a lot less understanding of the units and strategics and that ur speed with the keyboard/mouse is a lot more important.
Ofc the last one also needs to matter but i think the current balance isnt right.
There are so many zerg players out there who dont do more than doing very few BO's and have no real understanding of the game mechanis but are still being able to compete with very creative (top) players.
There need to be for sure limits to the level of which things are automized but SC has by far not reached them.
SC has still a huge potential for more strategic depth but the only way to get it would be to give the player more time to use any new features and elements and this mean to reduce the amount of time a player has to spent with repetitive things.
I really dont know what would be so bad about this as long as u want that the (strategic) decissions u make should be at least equally important to ur skills with the keyboard/mouse.
If u just want a reaction test as game than this is actually a sad thing.
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The point is, you guys all complain about how it'll leave room for "more strategy" and whatever - instead of bitching about balance changes and how macro is too (quite frankly, in your opinions) hard, why don't you spend the time just becoming better than the rest and being capable of doing the "boring" stuff and using your "obviously powerful" strategic mind to own us all?
Instead of comming out as a "I am so strategic. Just give me an "interface change" and I will be the next boxer" player, all you are coming out as is "I am like Boxer ;; in mind ;; but like ;; my macro so weak T________T"
Haha, and the cute part about the whole thing is that the people that support these changes are the same ones that argue that apm doesn't matter, with their main argument being "well...I've seen an 80 apm person beat a 200 apm person. so like. yeah.." The fact that they don't understand simple timing in that sometimes Protosses have to actually *gasp* stop workers to prepare for fast pushes?!?! And Terrans don't build nonstop scvs in early game TvZ. OMFG>
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In fact, I'd like to propose a challenege:
I don't believe that any of the people who post in favor of the balance changes have a deep enough knowledge of the game, but since "hammering the keys" is so important, if they can do that the same level as I can, then they have a good chance to win becuase of their "Boxer mind". Therefore, I will gladly play BO7 any of the players (I'd like to play Tal especially =), the Mr. start with 6 workers) that support the strategy changes. 4 games shouldn't take too much time.
With that said, if you're interested, PM me asap please.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 25 2005 07:47 FA_Leinad wrote:
how short minded some ppl here are.
Nobody can really believe that Starcraft is the perfect game, for some of us or even many it might be but this has more to do with the community and a lot of unintentional "features" of SC but we shouldnt forget that SC has also many flaws.
I have to agree that there is a lot of unnecessary stuff which just distracts from the actual game.
Making some stuff easier to use doesnt mean that u need less skill to master it or else u could say Dune 2 where u had to give every single unit a move/attack order would need more skill than SC.
If u make the interface easier it means on the other side there is more to place to integrate new stuff on which players can concentrate.
Instead of sending ur probes to mine or press thousand times a button to produce units u can rather give the player new elements to use, more unit (special) abilities or generaly more units types.
Not having to send ur probes all the time to mine means more time to do drops, to use ur units, doing actually strategic decissions instead of playing sim city.
I even go so far and say that SC needs atm a lot less understanding of the units and strategics and that ur speed with the keyboard/mouse is a lot more important.
Ofc the last one also needs to matter but i think the current balance isnt right.
There are so many zerg players out there who dont do more than doing very few BO's and have no real understanding of the game mechanis but are still being able to compete with very creative (top) players.
There need to be for sure limits to the level of which things are automized but SC has by far not reached them.
SC has still a huge potential for more strategic depth but the only way to get it would be to give the player more time to use any new features and elements and this mean to reduce the amount of time a player has to spent with repetitive things.
I really dont know what would be so bad about this as long as u want that the (strategic) decissions u make should be at least equally important to ur skills with the keyboard/mouse.
If u just want a reaction test as game than this is actually a sad thing.
I'm not gonna read through this because uh you are wrong.
Top players can do all of this, and send workers. That's what makes them top players.
The fact that you need to send your workers to mine just adds one more element of stress. Seriously, we do not want to make the game EASIER to play.
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In light of what people have said, I realise I'm not going to win this argument. Most of this community has an entirely different ideal for this game:
You want an intense rts game that combines strategy and tactics with the physical dexterity to keep pressing buttons or you are put at a disadvantage.
I want an intense rts game that combines strategy and tactics with (minimal) phsyical dexterity to get the best out of your strategy.
If I outplay someone, I do not want to lose due to not having fast enough hands to keep up macro at home. I don't mind losing from a micro error (though the poor AI in dragoons is distressing), as this creates the possibility of good micro allowing you to make a comeback from a bad situation.
Yes I suck at micro and macro. And exalted, I wouldn't have a chance against you in a game. Firstly because of your ability to macro and micro better then me, and secondly because I would guess you can utterly outplay me too, judging from your posts in the strategy forum. People might not realise it, as most of this board seems to be veterans of the game (and hence so very conservative), but to get to the stage where you can make even remotely good split second decisions is very very hard. Every time I watch one of my replays I think ''shit, I should have attacked there/expanded there/ pumped troops there". I know what I should be doing (primarily thanks to this site and my own experience), but in a game under the stress of competetion, and without the hindsight a replay gives of what the other player is up to, it isn't that easy to do.
I've played about 1500 games I think, a lot of them when totally new or when playing with new players and hence not improving. Yes I'm new to the game. Yes I want it changed because I suck at macro (I suck at micro too, but I don't mind that). which. But not because I'm lazy. I'm one of the hardest working people I know. It's because I have no will to practice hitting the keyboard very fast in certain patterns. It is a time consuming skill to develop, but you are developing a virtually useless skill. The strategic principles of starcraft give all players a huge advantage while playing other strategy games, even ones not in real time, and are also mentally stimulating. The menial side of starcraft is different:
a) doesn't aid touchtyping (I can touchtype fast but this hasn't prevented my macro from sucking).
b) it's only really useful for starcraft and games with virtually identical control set ups.
c) however much some people might profess to enjoy it, it is ultimately a distraction task that is boring unless you attain this 'fast hands' level of keyboard bashing, which is something that I personally would never find interesting.
d) you run the risk of getting rsi (200 apm means hitting a ridiculous amount of keys)
However, in proposing these ideas to a community who has this 'skill', I realise I'm not getting anywhere. Why would you want to change a system that benefits you? You don't want the game to be easier to play, you want it to be difficult. Fair enough, I hope you continue to enjoy it.
But for me, and other new players, the commitment to effectively working out our fingers to be able to play a video game is too much...it's too far from fun. I'll still keep playing, but I guess never at a decent level, as what's the point of playing people who can beat you're strategies through their fast hands?
So yes I give up. But hopefully now people can see where I'm coming from without shouting stfu noob!!
Cheers.
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You're a dumbass.
First of all, we don't play starcraft to imporve our touch typing, or to get better at other games. We play starcraft because we enjoy it. We enjoy the intense speed of it, and the lack of a ceiling of skill.
The goal of games is NOT to abstract the gameplay away from the player, but you seem to think that any step which removes player control from the game is a step in the right direction. Incredible.
But for me, and other new players, the commitment to effectively working out our fingers to be able to play a video game is too much...it's too far from fun. I'll still keep playing, but I guess never at a decent level, as what's the point of playing people who can beat you're strategies through their fast hands?
The difficulty in getting good isn't in working out your fingers so they move fast enough, it's in working out your mind so you think fast enough. Let me tell you something: all of us can think up strategies when watching replays. You aren't alone there. The diffuculty is in keeping everything in your mind while you are playing. You don't need intense speed to macro sufficiently: the problem is in you forgetting to do it because you have so many things on your mind.
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On May 24 2005 12:13 -HamartiA-ThreaT- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2005 13:06 RedMeat wrote:On May 21 2005 01:06 hasuwar wrote:
You can't change a perfected game, stop trying Stfu please... He is right. Perfect adjective1. without faults: without errors, flaws, or faults
Actually that's what makes him wrong... thanks though :p
EDIT: In answer to the other guy, starcraft is my favorite rts game as well but to say it's perfect is just not right. There's a lot of things you could tweak (not big balance changes just very small modifications to unit costs to bring a potentially bigger variety of units into the game, 250/100 scout for example). That's not even counting the obvious shite like scarab AI and lots of the unit pathing!
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On May 25 2005 12:25 ihatett wrote:
The difficulty in getting good isn't in working out your fingers so they move fast enough, it's in working out your mind so you think fast enough. Let me tell you something: all of us can think up strategies when watching replays. You aren't alone there. The diffuculty is in keeping everything in your mind while you are playing. You don't need intense speed to macro sufficiently: the problem is in you forgetting to do it because you have so many things on your mind.
Spot on. I can keep my apm at about 250-300 during lulls in games, but its during the battles or during my drops or whatever, that my apm slips and I forget about my macro or building pylons etc. Being able to realise that there are more things you need to be doing at the same time is the key. You have the dexterity, its just the mental quickness, and the ability to not get bogged down with just one thing.
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EPT
