On October 03 2011 15:11 writer22816 wrote: I would gladly update invest the time to update Liquipedia but I don't know what the standard builds are. I'm signing up anyway.
You can also post other useful stuff, update things about players, people in the scene, unit/building information if there is something not listed yet that you think it interesting, update about events, etc. It's not only about builds.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
I had this friend who always cried to me about his APM being too low, I've told if he ever talks about APM infront of me again I am gonna smash his face. Instead of focusing on APM, better focus on making and controling units aswell as not getting supply stuck and get your timings right, eventually APM will raise when the actions become mechanics and you become able to do more things besides that. APM is one of the not so important things, especially on lower levels, no pro level it becomes more important (Stork was intimidated by Bisu's APM iirc).
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
On October 02 2011 19:42 zwala wrote: wat about show matches between BW players who switched to SCII and the new top foreigners ?
The new top foreigners would smash. Even if you mean like Nony and Day[9], they're long out of practice.
Perhaps more useful would be getting Nony (who occasionally says BW was a better game), and Idra (who will not stop fucking talking about how BW is a way better game because SC2 sucks and everyone who beats him sucks too who only beat him because bullshit etc) to have a TSL2 rematch commentated by Artosis (who often implies BW was a better game). That would have a bigger draw of people who weren't already BW fans, and would probably be a lot less one-sided, even if neither of them would be playing at anything like their former level.
On October 02 2011 10:27 sLiMpoweR wrote: cant we just let bw rip its sad what it has become. I miss you bwwwwwww
I sometimes feel this is the predominant attitude, and it makes me want to give up.
in sc2 there is a HUGE difference (i came from there, not trying to compare but showing where i come from) in how bad someone actually is in bronze (which is the same as D) and how bad a player is who is D. for me it seems any D player can be masters in sc2 (i'm masters and sc2 and i get my ass handed to me here).
That has less to do with BW as a game and more to do with the fact ICCUP and Fish are pretty much 99% hardcore people nowadays. If we ever did flood it with enough newbs, the ranks would be devalued to the point of worthlessness, the way no one cares about being Diamond, no one would be impressed by a B rank.
On October 02 2011 19:16 LML wrote: man, all this win7 problems, there is a simple fix: format your PC and install an OS that works fine with BW, even if it's just vista, I never had problems with my BW there.
I think this is a step too far for most people.....
i was just talking about how its very hard for new players to begin playing bw when even players like me who are in masters (granted i know i'm not very good overall but better than a majority of the people who play sc2) have such a hard time starting out because of how good almost everyone is. like i said, in bw rank D people have ~200 apm, in sc2, bronze people have 30-40apm. i was just saying the current system is very hard for recruiting new players.
Eh. Not that much. I have 60 APM, and I can play at a D level fairly consistently (though, granted, I'm protoss). A lot of people in D have like 500 APM but don't do anything with it. It's actually kind of funny. I'm plat in SC2, and able to hold D. It's just a matter of getting used to it, D's not all that good once you get used to manual mine and hotkeying your gateways individually (4d5d6d7z8t9p0p I can has macro)
ROFL you really shouldn't be criticizing other players if you only have 60 APM, sure the people who have 300 APM are spamming a bit but in the end they still have more apm than you.
So? I'm still beating them with my sixty, so obviously it's not much help to them.
if you want to play BW with noobs and dont really care to improve play on game ranger. I was playing on it the other day and i think the majority of players on it would rank around d-. There are a lot of players there that have just started and anyone can host without having a forwarded port. Its also a good place for UMS and BGH.
I bolded the part that intrigues me the most. Link?
Just like hamachi it forces lan. It allows you find opponents for a lot of games.. even ones that are old as shit like AoE 2. Apperntly TTF uses it for heroes of might n magic and Kashu plays fastest on it. http://www.gameranger.com/
Well dunno if this is of any help but there is a BroodWar scene in Cuba and is actually very strong, ill be making a new thread about it soon with some results of the lates events and stuff, maybe some bw enthusiasts could check it out
regarding liquipedia updates, I don't know if this is a liquipedia issue, but I find myself needing more guides than build orders. It's great that I can execute the first 5 minutes flawlessly thanks to liquipedia, but once the checklist is complete I am as lost as if I never read the article. This is because liquipedia often goes something like "add academy when needed", "get 3rd rax before fact if you want more marines", "if your opponent is expanding too much you can add X factories and go for a timing". I don't know when I want more marines, can't realize when my opponent is making himself vulnerable, etc. I don't know when or what to scout for, simple things like at what timing speed finishes for a 2hatch speedlings, how I should deviate to account for that, etcetera. This is why things like stylish' fpvods are so much more helpful than liquipedia even though they are probably just as outdated. But I don't think having a video is necessary, all that info could very well be presented in an article.
i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 02 2011 19:24 sixfour wrote: i might do something on how to watch pro games if i get a few free hours sometime this week, been a bit hectic the last few days so have missed most of this thread
ok, so i've spent a bit of time doing something on this. i've spoilered it all into sections so it's not a massive wall of text, i'll leave it here if people want to edit/expand, point out any factual inaccuracies (entirely possible, especially when it comes to what to look for in each matchup as i'm not a high level player at all), or just go from wherever. i don't know what other people were thinking of so have tried to cover most bases.
Good question, it can be quite hard for SC2 players, or those new to the RTS scene in general, to pick up what's going on for a number of reasons. Mainly because the pro scene is exclusively based in Korea and there's little done by them to try to market things to a Western audience.
Hmm, no it doesn't. Basically we watch the various pro leagues through people restreaming it here on TL - there's usually at least a couple of people that do so for each event, often more for important matches in the playoffs or late in an individual league. Some people will occasionally dub over their own English commentary, although again this mostly happens for major matches, otherwise we just rely on our knowledge of the game to understand what's going on, at least those of us who don't understand Korean anyway.
You talk of pro leagues. So what am I watching? How does it work?
At present there's two major tournaments in professional BW.
The OSL is the major individual league that takes place roughly three times a year, running over a period of roughly three to four months. The current champion is the protoss player JangBi, defeating Fantasy 3-2 in an epic finals following a fairytale run to the finals, overcoming elimination playoffs on two occasions and beating many of the best players in the world in the process. And Soo.
Your typical OSL consists of offline preliminaries, usually unbroadcasted although OGN will occasionally broadcast selected games from the event. Here (usually) every progamer that hasn't already qualified for a later stage will take part in various groups, with the winner of each moving forward into the next stage. There's usually 24 or so, the exact number varying as player retirements may alter the number of players that need to move on.
These players will then advance into the next stage, where they are joined by those who made the last 16, but not as far as the semi finals, in the previous season. The players who came through the offline qualifiers will typically be paired off against each other, and the winner will play someone from the previous season, the winner of this game would then go through to the round of 16, or effectively the OSL proper.
That said, last season they tried to tinker with the format at this stage, and most people thought it was a terrible idea. Whether they continue with this experiment is unknown at this time.
Eventually we get down to a round of 16. Last year's semi finalists will join those who came through the previous stage and we will see them split into four groups, where everyone plays each other once, with the top two from each group advancing to the quarter finals. It then proceeds as a straight knockout from there.
The Proleague, on the other hand, is a team-based league. Each team will play each other in a best of 7 series over the course of any given round, with six different players going up against each other, and the first team to win 4 games wins. If they get to 3-3, then they can use any player a second time (or someone else entirely) in what is known as an ace match. These typically are must-see games as it's a winner takes all situation, often involving each team's best player, usually resulting in high-level play.
The teams do something slightly different in the middle of the season, where they play two rounds (previously one) in the Winners League format. SC2 fans who watch the GSTL will recognise this immediately, as it is effectively winner stops on, with again the first to get 4 wins taking the match. It's possible for a player to get 4 wins on their own, known as an all-kill, and this is not an uncommon occurrence, even from players you wouldn't expect. The Winners League actually has its own playoffs, although these are somewhat less prestigious than the main end-of season playoffs.
Not exactly. There was another major individual competition known as the MSL, which operates slightly differently to the OSL - the format is more akin to the GSL if you watch that tournament in SC2, however the future of this event is in question at present, with MBCGame likely to switch to kpop-based programming there may be no way to broadcast the next season, and as such it might not happen at all. The current champion is Flash, a Terran widely acknowledged to be the best player in the world at present, beating down the Zerg player ZerO in a one-sided finals 3-0.
There's also something called the STX Masters, which usually ends up being a stage to allow lesser players TV time and can be quite silly, with events such as Hyuk and By.Sun all-killing in the finals. Whether this returns next season is also questionable.
OK, so I'm watching a game. The only Korean I know is playguu. Help me.
I'll look at specific matchups below, but there's certain things you can do to help understand what's happening regardless of who is playing:
- Watch the minimap. Doing this you can keep track of how many bases each player is on, see if there's an early worker moving out for any type of cheese, watch for drops or other general army movement/positioning, etc etc.
- Check which map is being used. If you're watching regularly, you can get a sense of what strategies are being favoured, or otherwise know which race if any is favoured, even knowing whether it's a 2/3/4 player map can be useful.
- Early in the game, watch as to when a player is taking his gas. This can often indicate how quickly a player is expanding, or whether they are going to go with early aggression/tech. For Terran it can also point out whether they are going to use bio or mech against Zerg. Also check for buildings that are somewhat earlier than you expect - again as an example in TvZ, you would expect an engineering bay to be built at a time that allows the Terran to build missile turrets to finish just as mutalisks arrive. If it's a lot earlier, it likely indicates a fast +1 upgrade, perhaps with the idea of an early timing attack. These aren't the easiest things to understand as a new BW viewer, but ask in the LR thread, there'll be someone there that knows.
- Looking at the level of upgrades that units have can be very useful. Seeing two flocks of mutas fly into each other and having the smaller one win might make you think WTF, but if you saw that one of them had just finished +1 carapace you'd get it.
Almost exclusively uses pure mech. Tanks are really good. Games often involve careful positioning of siege lines in order to secure expansions, deny opposition expansions, setting up in areas that give you natural advantages in engagements, etc. Some variations include:
- Early game, you may occasionally see one player proxying one or two barracks in an attempt to end the game very quickly. Similarly, but less cheesy, you may see a player decline to go with a standard barracks or factory into expansion, in order to go for two factories, trying to hit a timing to hit with vultures before a fast-expanding opponent has enough army out to defend. At the other end of non-standard early game play, you may occasionally see a player go for a command centre before barracks, although this is more common in non-mirror matches.
- Starport play can make for interesting matchups. This typically only involved accumulation of large numbers of dropships to allow for better mobility of the mech army, dropping either at expansions to do economic damage, or at tanklines to abuse splash damage, but there has been a tendency in recent months for players to go heavily towards air, specifically large numbers of cloaked wraiths with a possibility of battlecruisers/valkyries in the late game. Some players have used a quick two-port wraith strategy in the past (Leta immediately springs to mind) to try to gain fast aerial superiority and pick off workers/tanks when Terran's anti-air is limited.
- some players (notably Flash, often Fantasy) opt for a very quick armory, often two, in order to gain an upgrade advantage.
There's two main branches that the Terran player can go down, either using bio or mech for their main army. A transition into mech after the midgame is not uncommon. Bio is the most common route that players go down. Zerg play on the other hand is much more standard, with variations prior to getting hive tech either involving all-in play or other various cheese.
- Zerg will normally opt for a hatchery on 12 supply before putting his pool down, and will frequently stick down a third hatchery quickly as well (maybe even before a pool if he scouts/suspects no early pressure), these are important to keep up with the Terran on economy/production. Meanwhile the Terran will usually get down a fairly quick expansion of his own, here you want to check for a factory to indicate mech play, you can usually tell by if he takes gas quickly.
- Unless the Zerg is going for some sort of weird fast lurker play, they will usually look to get to a spire quickly. The idea of this isn't to kill the Terran, more to contain him and keep his army inside his base to allow the Zerg to secure a third base. Some damage can be done but is usually negated by turrets/marines, and mutalisks will become ineffective once vessels are out as irradiate owns the hell out of stacked mutas. Terran will usually still keep making vessels throughout the game, as irradiate will one shot defilers and severely weaken ultralisks. Also watch for Terran players to use the "eraser" trick, where science vessels will irradiate each other and then move over a mineral line, killing many drones.
- Zerg then usually needs to get to hive quickly in order to not simply die to a push with bio/vessels and maybe tanks. They will usually have lurkers by this stage, but they can be ineffective once Terran has siege tanks which outrange them and vessels for detection. Do watch for stop lurkers, a trick where the Zerg has them not attack and instead waits for numbers of marines to be into range, resulting in much more effective damage.
- Once at hive, the Zerg will normally get a defiler mound, this is essential for protecting lurkers with dark swarm, and also for plague which with crackling/lurkers can rip through bio. They may occasionally go for a greater spire for guardians, although this is dependent on keeping a lot of your initial mutas alive and map/opponent dependent. Ultras are also a possibility but again it is situation dependent. If the Terran has gone mech, or transitioned into it, the Zerg may consider making queens in order to spawn broodlings and break tank lines, leaving his ground army with an advantage to clean up what remains. The Terran will be looking to deny additional bases, either with drop play or simply pushing with the main army, or drop to pick off key tech structures. If the Terran can keep up on base count he will usually be at an advantage.
Like TvT, bio is ineffective in this matchup barring specific cheese strategies such as the deep six. Hence you mostly see mech. Protoss has more varied options of tech, although some maps will favour some over others.
- Early game, proxy barracks/gateways are sometimes seen, but you will normally just see standard fairly safe play. Terran has the option of going for a fast expansion just off a barracks (or even just 14cc), or may make a factory first - either way they will mainly be looking to expand fairly early. 1 base play is also fairly rare from Protoss, and will frequently expand immediately or off of 1 gateway.
- Protoss will usually look to get early dragoon range and try to pressure a Terran's expansion. Terran normally responds by making a bunker, repairing it as needed, just to hold until siege mode finishes where they can outrange goons and force a retreat. If the Protoss can snipe the first tank, which is difficult against competent players, that usually allows them to gain a large advantage, perhaps game ending if the Terran makes further mistakes.
- Terran will usually then try to increase factory count, get mines to gain map control while Protoss lacks detection and maybe look to harass probes with vultures. Protoss will frequently wall off a third base with pylons to limit this, until he gets a forge (rarely made before they are on three bases) and can place a cannon(s) to ward them off.
- Protoss has a few different tech paths that they can go down. They will usually go towards some form of stargate play - a clue as to which one is building timings, a stargate before they have a templar archives usually indicates carriers (also check the cyber core, if it is spinning midgame after goon range is done, then carriers normally follow), if the stargate/archives are going down at the same time then expect arbiters. Reaver play is occasionally used, normally in a harassing function with drop play or to attack misplaced tanks. The citadel tech route is somewhat more frequent, speed zealots and storms are both useful in countering typical Terran tactics.
- Watch for a Protoss that has gone arbiters to use recall, either into the main to try to pick off key structures (armories are good, depots also a good option to supply block the Terran), or to new bases aiming to prevent mining. They will also often utilise shuttle play, either for reaver/storm drops on mineral lines, or for "zealot bombs", dropping them on sieged tanks causing friendly splash damage. If arbiters are the unit of choice, expect the Terran to make science vessels, to EMP the arbiters and for mobile detection. Stasis is also a critical spell, good use of it can take much of the Terran army out of commission, allowing you to gain an army advantage and then clear up the stasised units afterwards. Key targets are tanks and vessels.
Unfortunately, ZvZ is probably the most predictable matchup - the nature of it means that players will normally go straight to spire as other options are ineffective.
- Unless there's a 4/5 pool, the Zerg will go for one of a 9/overpool, 12 pool or 12 hatchery. While they don't technically hard counter each other, there is a distinct 12h>12p>9p>12h cycle where one player has the advantage either because of a better economy, or in the case of a 9 pool vs 12 hatch, they can have units reach the opposition base before they can defend, perhaps forcing a cancel of the natural which negates any possible economic advantage.
- If the game lasts longer than 5 minutes we will get to a situation where both players will head towards a spire. There's a possibility to hit a timing before mutalisks are out where you can overrun the opposition with superior zergling numbers, but this usually requires hiding some of them, as no anti-air means you will typically have overlords seeing everything the opponent is doing, including ling/drone production numbers.
- If there is a large disparity in spire build timing due to differing build orders/previous harassment, then you may see the player with the later spire throw up an evolution chamber in order to defend with spore colonies.
- Otherwise it usually comes down to muta/scourge micro and/or numbers. Be sure to watch for upgrades which can make a lot of difference. Players may also try to runby lings occasionally to pick off drones or buildings if possible to try to swing a game.
- Occasionally hive tech happens, which is amazing. But it's pretty rare unfortunately.
In my opinion one of the more interesting matchups, probably because I started out as Zerg before I switched to Protoss, ZvP has a lot of possibilities and swings a lot in terms of which race has an advantage at the pro level. Outside of cheese, there's a fairly common early game path, but once at the midgame, many different branches can be followed.
- Protoss will almost always look to forge fast-expand. How exactly they do this varies based on the map and scouting, they may go straight up for a nexus, or stick down 1 or possibly 2 cannons if there are a lot of early zerglings. Meanwhile, the Zerg will usually 9 pool or overpool, mainly because the Protoss scouts very quickly in this matchup and can possibly deny the expansion with his scouting probe. A 12 hatch opening is feasible, but mostly on 4 player maps. Once the Zerg has his natural, they will also look to take a third hatchery, often in what appears to be an unusual location.
- Common Protoss follow-ups involve production of a fast Stargate, in order to produce corsairs. This is for scouting purposes and to gain some level of air superiority, and if possible to pick off scouting overlords or ovies in general. We then frequently see either a transition into reaver play, using shuttles to drop and harass, or DT usage as popularised by Bisu, using the sairs to remove Zerg's detection and then the DT's to cause massive damage. A templar archives normally shows up at some point, as storm is a very important spell in this matchup, ripping through hydralisks and damaging burrowed lurkers.
- The Zerg meanwhile has the option of going for mutalisks (they will normally get a spire regardless, if just for scourge to deny complete air superiority to corsairs, or, if playing Best, to kill them outright), mainly to snipe templar and probes, or heavy hydra/lurker play. Most Zerg players will typically have a lot of hatcheries by the midgame, allowing for production of mass hydras which can walk through a Protoss natural, even if there are large amounts of cannons, unless the Protoss has storms available quickly, or can defend with reavers.
- Watch for the forge spinning early in the matchup. +1 attack is a very important upgrade, as it allows for zealots to kill zerglings in two shots as opposed to three. If a citadel is thrown down, it is possible that the Protoss is going for a +1 speedlot timing with the intention of disrupting the Zerg's third base. Also, as in PvT, drop play from the Protoss can be devastating, and there is more possibility of later game DT harass, as they one-shot Zerg workers, allowing for the possibility of taking out an entire mineral line if the Zerg is not paying attention.
Probably the most interesting mirror matchup, there's a fair bit of possible variation in what people can try. There's cheese options, standard macro play, and variety in the midgame. Watching a very good PvP player (say Horang2 or Bisu) can be surprisingly entertaining.
- There's some cheese possibilities. A 2-gate opening, although probably not technically cheese, is intended to apply early damage and will put a player well behind if it doesn't. You can also rush to DT's, but again it needs to be concealed somewhat so the opponent doesn't just quickly throw down a robo and observatory (or possibly a forge/cannons), negating the rush. Anything more than 2 gate goons is usually also considered cheese.
- Otherwise a player will typically go 1 gate into core, making some zealots so that you don't just die, and then a goon to clear out any probes that may still be alive.
- Players will then often tech to a robotics facility, allowing for observers to be produced, and then to transition to reavers, which are probably the most common choice in this matchup.
- Balancing between teching, expanding and army production is somewhat tricky - expand/tech too soon and you have your opponent walking in and killing you. It's not like SC2 whereby everything is just 1 base play, but taking an expansion too early is inherently risky.
- Typically a midgame will consist of large goon numbers with zealot and shuttle/reaver support, players will also typically get a templar archives and have storms/archons involved, also opening up the possibility of late game DT harass. It mostly results in wins via micro, superior positioning, or better upgrades/sheer numbers. Watching two players with good reaver micro face off is very pretty, loading and unloading them to try to avoid damage completely.
PICK A TEAM. It helps a ton, especially with proleague, to get your fanboy tendencies out. Go for one which has your favourite players, people from the race you play/like to watch, whatever. It's always more exciting to have something to lean towards in a game where you'd otherwise not have a vested interest.
Currently we have:
SKT1 - heavy hitting powerhouse, formerly home to Terran giants Boxer and iloveoov, now home to proleague powerhouse and OSL failure Bisu, Terran mech specialist Fantasy, terrible corsair controller Best and an up and coming Zerg lineup.
KT Rolster - home of the current best Terran player and probably best overall player Flash, they also have the solid Protoss player Stats, now with reduced chin, formally had Yellow in their numbers and currently have Reach, hive tech expert Action and interesting zerg up and comers Crazy-Hydra and Perfective.
CJ Entus - Idra's old stomping ground, CJ benefited last season from soaking up a large number of now-defunct Sparkyz lineup, including Leta and Horang2 - the latter, along with Snow and Movie gives them arguably the most formidable Protoss lineup in the league. Hydra is among the top Zergs in the world today and this season they also see the return of former OSL champ Effort.
Woongjin Stars - The acquisition of Light last season, with the best TvZ in the game after Flash, has turned them into genuine contenders. With Zero/Soulkey they possess a creative 1-2 Zerg powerhouse, and free, when not slumping, is an extremely dangerous Protoss, famous for recalling scouts against Fantasy and being nuked by Hiya.
Samsung Khan - Khan have a good mix of experienced veterans, including carrier specialist Stork and storm specialist and newest OSL champion Jangbi, and in Reality have an up and coming Terran who can cause damage. Grape and Brave are potentially solid Protoss options, but with the loss of great, they look horribly weak as far as Zerg goes.
STX Soul - What's happening with them is weird, as they've lost Kal to ACE and put their entire roster available for trade, although we've not seen any takers. Calm, hero, hyvaa and Modesty give for interesting Zerg options, Bogus has been knocking on the door to be let into the elite Terran reckoning for a while now, and Shuttle on his day can be solid from a Protoss standpoint.
Air Force ACE - Probably uniquely anywhere, ACE allows progamers to do their military service while not giving up active play. Traditionally they've done terrible, but with the number of teams being reduced they've actually picked up better and better players who seem to do better than they had been doing previously, with Kal, great and maybe Pure also moving this season, adding to ceremony specialist firebathero, Iris and others.
As Yet Unnamed Eighth Team - The scene's in a state of flux right now, and it's unlikely that the other teams from last year (WeMade Fox, Hwaseung Oz and MBCGame Hero) are returning. What may happen is that a dream team of their collective players (which'd look something like ultramegaelite zerg Jaedong, high level Terrans in Sea/Baby, as well as other good players like Roro, Mind, Wooki, Shine, Killer and Hiya) will be formed. Some of them may go into free agency and be picked up by other teams, so exactly what'll happen is as yet unknown, but it'd create for great bandwagon jumping opportunities.
Nice guide chef however about the kt rolster section , you forgot to mention hoejja he's really not that spotted or thank a lot but without him in the finals we would have lost that game . He really deserves the recognition .
Awesome guide Sixfour (yeah, when i saw the Valk icon i thought it was Chef for a second too...)
One thing that might be worth adding to the ZvZ section is some description of micro in that matchup. I started to enjoy ZvZ a lot more when i started really paying attention to how pro's control their units. Two things in particular to look out for.
Zergling Concaves - The shape of a zergling fight can be more important than the numbers of zerglings, especially when one player is defending.
Scourge "Forcing" - Pro's make a lot of scourge, even though they don't manage to hit with them very often. In many Muta/Scourge v Muta/Scourge engagements, the purpose of the scourge isn't to kill mutas, but to control their movement. If you can force your opponent's muta flock to turn away, you can chase them with your mutas and land moving shots on them from behind. Even if no scourge connect, you will still inflict a lot of damage.
On October 04 2011 00:41 LML wrote: valk icon? I am almost sure that's an infested terran;O
If any1 has some replays with great actions worthy to be added into a small movie (barely more than 3minutes) please send them to me via PM, thanks.
What about from VODs? I saw some pretty cool stuff from the Ribbon Revival that may be helpful for you. Sadly, I didn't mark down the times so I'll revisit the VODs when I get a chance to see where they were.
I think a low level clans should become more common they encorage people to play and helps them develop by playing with others of the same skill level as them. There really isnt any around and many people give up due to that fact. Are there any plans for one or not?
On October 04 2011 00:41 LML wrote: valk icon? I am almost sure that's an infested terran;O
If any1 has some replays with great actions worthy to be added into a small movie (barely more than 3minutes) please send them to me via PM, thanks.
What about from VODs? I saw some pretty cool stuff from the Ribbon Revival that may be helpful for you. Sadly, I didn't mark down the times so I'll revisit the VODs when I get a chance to see where they were.
I've already downloaded the replays from the Ribbon Revival and also watched some of the games on stream, if you have recommendations go ahead and tell me, would save me quite some time;)
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
On October 03 2011 21:03 Silidons wrote: i would like to also ask, since i really enjoy bw a lot more than sc2, is there any place i can go to read/watch tips and tricks about bw? for example, how to micro certain units in certain situations, how the ai works in certain situations, building placements, mechanical stuff like that. i would also like to know if theres something like t&t about hotkey&camera placement etc.
Low level clans sound amazing. Im not very good, but before i went travelling i was C high (now maybe d+, just getting started again). Would love to practice with some even bigger noobs if anyone is interrested? I am on GMT-1 so any european are welcome. PM !
EDIT: Should we make another thread? If we can get 5 players willing to run a noobclan and maybe 5 players in each we could have something going on. Im horrible, but i have payed my dues and knows something about the game, for all races..
As much as I like Broodwar, let foreign broodwar die.
Legendary and hard RTS'es will only be cult classics, and won't be mainstream.
People nowadays prefer easier games to fulfill their ego. Look at Battle net 2.0 from SC2 not showing the player's losses when an idiot can calculate it by subtracting total games play and total games won. Then they took it further by removing your number of games play+won entirely.
Rainbow Six series sucked since Raven Shield, replacing it with a more action-packed Vegas
Resident evil series have also gone to shit since 4, turning from a puzzle solving horror into a mainstream shoot'em up.
How modern game compnaies cater to newbies is just sickening.
I have lost faith in modern games and the modern gaming community in general. RIP RTS and let's welcome our MOBA and FPS overlords.
On October 04 2011 04:27 ppshchik wrote: As much as I like Broodwar, let foreign broodwar die.
Legendary and hard RTS'es will only be cult classics, and won't be mainstream.
People nowadays prefer easier games to fulfill their ego. Look at Battle net 2.0 from SC2 not showing the player's losses when an idiot can calculate it by subtracting total games play and total games won. Then they took it further by removing your number of games play+won entirely.
Rainbow Six series sucked since Raven Shield, replacing it with a more action-packed Vegas
Resident evil series have also gone to shit since 4, turning from a puzzle solving horror into a mainstream shoot'em up.
How modern game compnaies cater to newbies is just sickening.
I have lost faith in modern games and the modern gaming community in general. RIP RTS and let's welcome our MOBA and FPS overlords.
You should never be allowed to post in the BW forum again, but I hate people with you're type of attitude, get lost.
I'm not even dissing Broodwar, I'm saying that a high skill capped game with low graphics will never be mainstream, but a cult classic. Broodwar is only observable at the highest level of mechanics from A-Teamers and B-teamers. Watching amateurs play in Broodwar puts me to sleep.
BW not being mainstream is not even a negative thing. BW fanbase, despite being small, is one of the most loyal fanbase / cult following I've ever seen. It's like a fuzzy, warm family instead of a crowded street.
PS: If someone is interested in Broodwar, he/she will eventually try to watch vods and learn about it. Forcefeeding them won't do any good.