Disclaimer: No BW vs SC2 in this topic; you're making it worse for both scene by arguing such crap in here.
KCM has overheard from MBCGame fellow workers at the Loox studio while filming for the Real Soccer tournament.
His post summary:
It seems like MBCGame will shut down mid-January; till then MBCGame won't shut down. (He said that MBC needs time to completely switch a channel from Game-based to Music-based).
Though there are few events scheduled in October for MBCGame, it seems like there's a huge chance that MSL and next Proleague won't air on MBCGame at all.
This was posted in cafe called http://cafe.daum.net/mbcgamelove/, which was made after the shocking news that MBCGame was going to shutdown. Think of it as #savembcgame movement.
Bloody hell...guess nothing was going to stop it after all. So this really is the last MSL T_T Wonder what will happen to PL with just one channel broadcasting.
On September 06 2011 02:47 Hyde wrote: Bloody hell...guess nothing was going to stop it after all. So this really is the last MSL T_T Wonder what will happen to PL with just one channel broadcasting.
This sucks so much
Actually, the last MSL already finished. The news seems to suggest that the upcoming MSL will just be cancelled.
Side note: There was an article on fomos few days ago that said MSL Group Selection will happen in October, at latest. KCM's post on the daum cafe, however, is more recent.
On September 06 2011 02:47 Hyde wrote: Bloody hell...guess nothing was going to stop it after all. So this really is the last MSL T_T Wonder what will happen to PL with just one channel broadcasting.
This sucks so much
Actually, the last MSL already finished. The news seems to suggest that the upcoming MSL will just be cancelled.
For some reason I thought the bolded part meant next year, but dammit I see what you're saying now. After all those MST matches too + Show Spoiler [Nooo] +
Well even if that was announced as a rumor time ago, MBC disbanding will never be an easy thing to recover from..i'm really sad, i'd really like if it would be possible to gather all of us BW fans and make our own gaming channel to keep MSL and other stuff alive..that'd be awesome, but i don't really think that's even a possibility T_T
On September 06 2011 02:43 Telcontar wrote: So much for the power of twitter......
Don't die on us BW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Power of twitter only really works when more than 100 people join in...
I hope something can fill the gap, maybe some revolutionary player can start a new era of progaming and get massive sponsorships for the scene. One can hope.
MBC should at least just marathon the last MSL before they shut down or something, even without any prize money. I think everyone deserves at least that.
This still doesn't make sense to me... Couldn't they just open a new channel? Seeing as how OGN reached the highest viewer count yet, this certainly can't be a bad time for the gaming channels' income.
I suppose there's nothing we can do about it is there? I am hoping though that OSL and Proleague will be sticking around for awhile longer. MUCH longer.
On September 06 2011 04:15 OpticalShot wrote: Hope some other cable TV service provider / channel will pick up the slack.
Exactly, this sucks and this is really scary, but the real trial for BW is whether it can attract another station to capitalize on the opportunity and fill the vacuum. It's the same with the teams disbanding, sponsors do come and go to some extent, so the real question is can BW find new sponsors willing to invest. If there are then we'll have BW for a much longer time to come. If not, then the eventual collapse is inevitable and MBC's pulling the plug is just an unnecessary and unwelcome speeding up of a process that's going to happen anyways.
Wait, so it means the Bisu MSL will be cancelled ? This makes no sense at all, MBC don't want Bisu to win another title or something ? As a Bisu fan I'm pissed off now.
As I said in the other thread, there really was no stopping this transition. It wasn't about money or the popularity of gaming, just that the CEO and President of MBC, Mr. Kim, wanted a music channel of his own and he was pulling stunts to put political pressure to make sure it happened. He's apparently not a very well liked figure in Korea and this just furthers that negative image of him.
They have to finish the current MSL! Either Flash or Bisu become the only to ever win 4, or Jaedong joins the Golden Badge Club. This storyline must be complete!
Don't blame the KPop, blame the guy at the top. KPop and BW can coexist. It's just that certain people think we shouldn't have BW and have KPop all day.
On September 06 2011 07:02 Ciryandor wrote: Don't blame the KPop, blame the guy at the top. KPop and BW can coexist. It's just that certain people think we shouldn't have BW and have KPop all day.
no fuck kpop, always hated it and now I hate it even more
I guess, the only thing we can hope for now is... for something to happen between now and next year. Hope that KesPA finds a way to make something happen.
Bisu finally gets past to Ro8 and this happens. Flash stop killing BW already. (had to throw that one in hehe )
>< I get home from work and I see the news. January is 4 months away, things could change till then. Hope for the best ...I'm going to cry with everyone
Sucks to see, but honestly it might be better to have SC on only 1 channel right now. Its definitely in a bad spot with 3-4 teams disbanding.
Sad to see MSL dies (hopefully not *fingers crossed*) like this, but tbh with only 6ish teams in proleague, it might be better to have it on only 1 channel
On September 06 2011 10:11 NuclearJudas wrote: So sad. Lost touch with BW quite some time ago, but I don't want it to die. ; _ ;
It's not dying. I don't think some people here understand it's pretty much a national sport in South Korea lol. The issue is that money came first to MBC, and they found more money in broadcasting lame music than SC.
I don't think SC is as socially acceptable as it once was. Times were hard back then. Now SK is wealthier and the economy is growing, people are looking at video games with less approval imo. It doesn't matter if the xx demographic watches it, it's a tidal wave of change in thinking and social opinion. That more than anything will hurt the scene.
After watching hours and hours of Kpop on BW stream, it seems to be the perfect association. Who would have thought that Kpop would bluntly take over our channel ? Seriously fuck that. I want my MSL.
The MSL's format was always better than the OSL's.
The seeding from previous seasons was fairer in terms of how many games you could avoid (OSL semifinalists end up in the Ro16, where you just need to win 2 series to get seeded again!) You have a true group selection. And survivor-style brackets are much better than the round robin system OSL often uses.
In any case, if I haven't misread the situation, all depends on the government agency that decides if MBC can make the change, and perhaps they've already approved it? The new guy in charge of MBC wants the change and I doubt anybody else can stop him.
On September 06 2011 10:11 NuclearJudas wrote: So sad. Lost touch with BW quite some time ago, but I don't want it to die. ; _ ;
It's not dying. I don't think some people here understand it's pretty much a national sport in South Korea lol. The issue is that money came first to MBC, and they found more money in broadcasting lame music than SC.
It isn't dying, but companies can make more money playing lame music than BW. Sounds like dying to me!
Makes me sad regardless. I'm sure we will see a new league start up or perhaps OSL A and OSL B or something.
On September 06 2011 10:25 bRiz wrote: I don't think SC is as socially acceptable as it once was. Times were hard back then. Now SK is wealthier and the economy is growing, people are looking at video games with less approval imo. It doesn't matter if the xx demographic watches it, it's a tidal wave of change in thinking and social opinion. That more than anything will hurt the scene.
I think this is the most plausible explanation. Just like what commentator Um said, no one is really to blame. The head of MBC wouldn't be switching the channel if Koreans still clamored for BW.
I wonder, which is better, a slow death or a quick one? Though BW will never truly die. We may lose our mecca though.
Given the massively retarded decision to split the last MSL across two seasons, I don't see "not having the last MSL" as a really bad thing. "Not having MSL" on the other hand is pretty terrible, but if we're losing it anyway, then not seeing the last mediocre tournament doesn't seem like a big deal.
Sad day for esports overall, though. MBCgame will be missed.
Although it's sad to see all the rumor and speculation coming true, I'm still hoping that the rumors surrounding no more MSL turn out to be false. At least give the league a nice farewell tournament instead of abruptly pulling the plug.
On September 06 2011 15:16 crazeh wrote: People actually watch music videos on the television in Korea? Even though they have the internet and can view the videos whenever they want?
Well it's a music channel but that doesn't mean that they only show music videos. They could show live concerts, singing competitions, etc. Just like how MBC games doesn't just show starcraft games but also has things like bnet attack and Hyungjoon Becomes A Progamer.
On September 06 2011 09:03 Seraphic wrote: I guess, the only thing we can hope for now is... for something to happen between now and next year. Hope that KesPA finds a way to make something happen.
Bisu finally gets past to Ro8 and this happens. Flash stop killing BW already. (had to throw that one in hehe )
They pretty much could finish the MSL till that god damned January. Why the hell they can't???
Didn't they say that in the start of October they will launch the MSL. Why in the world they can't do this, I wonder... especially if they promised (or misinformed everyone??)
lol these progamers have to go to BNet and just play this MSL by themselves. And then upload replays. hehehe
gogogo last MSL. Please at least be honest ppl. Finish it and it's ok.
On September 06 2011 09:03 Seraphic wrote: I guess, the only thing we can hope for now is... for something to happen between now and next year. Hope that KesPA finds a way to make something happen.
Bisu finally gets past to Ro8 and this happens. Flash stop killing BW already. (had to throw that one in hehe )
Bisu got to the Ro8?
I can't seem to find anything past the MST.
I can be wrong I know he got past MST. Which is hell of a lot better then anything he shown for the past year or so -.-
But I digress it's about MBC here. I still hope something good happens.
I wonder how OGN is going to cope with the high demanding schedule of the PL. Will they half the number of matches per season or will they double the air time? My gut feeling is their gonna rework the whole pro-league format.
Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
This is the greatest blow to BW ever, even bigger than the match-fixing scandal. But I still believe BW can live for a number of years, we just need new blood!
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
UPDATE: Fomos has investigated into the situation, and no such request has been filed by the Korean Broadcasting Communication.... whatever its called (which means MBCGame is still alive, till the thing's filed). However, they did receive some questions and interest in the past.
The KCC won't deny it, so anyone holding their breath hoping they will should know that they only block inappropriate stuff. (It's literally modeled after the FCC of the US with the exception of not being independent.) MBC Game changing to a music channel is hardly inappropriate so it's doubtful the KCC would do anything whatsoever, it's just a small legality they have to go through to finalize the switch. So really, the only way MBC Game won't be changing is if MBC Game doesn't want to.
On September 07 2011 02:47 supernovamaniac wrote: UPDATE: Fomos has investigated into the situation, and no such request has been filed by the Korean Broadcasting Communication.... whatever its called (which means MBCGame is still alive, till the thing's filed). However, they did receive some questions and interest in the past.
Thanks for the update, a glimmer of hope? Damn, i wish we had more news about what's going on.
As a long time BW fan, I am really upset over this news, but I can understand the decision. In the end, a channel needs to produce enough viewership to remain viable. I think the right way of approaching this situation would have been to find ways to improve the channel's viewership, not make an emotional appeal.
On September 07 2011 06:46 xBillehx wrote: The KCC won't deny it, so anyone holding their breath hoping they will should know that they only block inappropriate stuff. (It's literally modeled after the FCC of the US with the exception of not being independent.) MBC Game changing to a music channel is hardly inappropriate so it's doubtful the KCC would do anything whatsoever, it's just a small legality they have to go through to finalize the switch. So really, the only way MBC Game won't be changing is if MBC Game doesn't want to.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
To be honest that's a really good point. I really miss the "human" part of the programers. During ProLeague, they get in the both, play their match. The winner smiles, high fives his team, and then the team form the circle. The loser sits devastated in the booth, gets out, looks gloomy, and they form the circle. After the match is over, both line up, bow, and get out asap.
There are the occasionally ceremony sometimes, but apart from SKT vs KT, there isn't really the fire between the players / fans. No one calls the other out, no drama, no storys, nothing as far as i know.
The interviews are mostly bland as you said, everyone just seems so untouchable and distant for me. Of course i don't speak korean, so i don't know how far the programers really reach out to their fanbase in korea, im sure supernovamaniac / ryo and others know more, so i don't know it thats a valid point.
You know, it's funny, but with the MSL news I was checking out some of the past champions for Brood War leagues. You know the joke about Bisu only being able to win MSL? Apparently there's ever only been four Protoss MSL champions: Bisu, Bisu, Bisu and Nal_Ra. I'd never actually realised that before, that's actually pretty amazing. Didn't think it warranted a new thread though, so I just posted it here since it's why I thought to look it up.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
On September 06 2011 02:47 Hyde wrote: Bloody hell...guess nothing was going to stop it after all. So this really is the last MSL T_T Wonder what will happen to PL with just one channel broadcasting.
This sucks so much
Actually, the last MSL already finished. The news seems to suggest that the upcoming MSL will just be cancelled.
but....but you can't cancel it now that Bisu finally have qualified..... :/
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
Those are hardly what I'm speaking of. What I'm talking about is the display of emotion and some fan-interaction outside of the booth. How many months (or even, years) has it been since you've seen players get close to the fans and do some awesome hi-fives (note: the players ignore hi-fives even as they walk to get their photos taken after they win their games, like in OSL), do a ceremony at the camera or do something other than the usual circling-around-with-team and hi-five. After players in the OSL win, they do a simple V-pose, do a fist-shake or two and go backstage, leaving fans desiring for much more (I do, at least). I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a FBH, but if there's only one FBH to look forward to for some out-of-game awesomeness out of the dozens of programers, I think it kinda speaks for itself how robotic progamers have been programmed to be.
Also, look at group selection stages. Terrible. No life in them. I don't even bother to watch it for a minute because the progamers lack charisma and confidence on camera. I, for one, think that's one big reason why BW's fanbase is reducing.
The idea of fewer matches would be a really strong option I think. It would pull in and focus viewers like crazy. I know I completely lose track of who plays whom, how many times and when and why etc.
Each team playing one match a week would not only focus viewer numbers, but I think the players could then live a slightly more human lifestyle as well. I don't know where the crazy numbers of matches format came from really- it's not present in any other popular sport.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
Those are hardly what I'm speaking of. What I'm talking about is the display of emotion and some fan-interaction outside of the booth. How many months (or even, years) has it been since you've seen players get close to the fans and do some awesome hi-fives (note: the players ignore hi-fives even as they walk to get their photos taken after they win their games, like in OSL), do a ceremony at the camera or do something other than the usual circling-around-with-team and hi-five. After players in the OSL win, they do a simple V-pose, do a fist-shake or two and go backstage, leaving fans desiring for much more (I do, at least). I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a FBH, but if there's only one FBH to look forward to for some out-of-game awesomeness out of the dozens of programers, I think it kinda speaks for itself how robotic progamers have been programmed to be.
Also, look at group selection stages. Terrible. No life in them. I don't even bother to watch it for a minute because the progamers lack charisma and confidence on camera. I, for one, think that's one big reason why BW's fanbase is reducing.
There is no obligation for pro gamers to do any of the said Charisma ceremony like Firebathero for he is one of a kind , Let's just say that these is a forceful thing that kespa actually implements these kind of obligation to our pro gamer to do something when they win a game .
To some they would think its just nothing however some of those may not like doing ceremonies like that . I don't see a problem with them doing any fancy most importantly . What I look forward too is their games and not their ceremonies as a bw fan I expect good games to be played that's all . However that's personally how I feel about the matter at hand .
Although I do like the idea that pro gamers should be out reaching and there should be more fbh around the proleague . It's all individual choice for the player to do something outstanding to reach out for their crowds . Bisu's heart shape with his hands to the little girl who always come for his game is already heart warming at the best , Kt' response to us sending a video in responding of our get well card to violet thanking us tl.net bw fan isn't enough in reaching out for the fan . Than I don't know what else is.
Stork reaching out to daniel and taking photo with him and even giving him some gifts aren't players reaching out to their fans . Truthfully speaking we all do expect them to cater to all fans ,lets take pga professional especially big names player some times when they FEEL like it they would go out to the fans and autographs caps and shirts . However at some times they are so ignorant and cold that I wonder why am I even being his fan for all the time . When I could I just go to champions tour and get a much more better show and fan treatment .
No one is putting a pressure for them to do any ceremony and I fail to see not performing ceremony equals dwindling number of broodwar fan. I am a fan of broodwar because of the game and not colourful ceremonies which will make me go wow, so outstanding .
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
Those are hardly what I'm speaking of. What I'm talking about is the display of emotion and some fan-interaction outside of the booth. How many months (or even, years) has it been since you've seen players get close to the fans and do some awesome hi-fives (note: the players ignore hi-fives even as they walk to get their photos taken after they win their games, like in OSL), do a ceremony at the camera or do something other than the usual circling-around-with-team and hi-five. After players in the OSL win, they do a simple V-pose, do a fist-shake or two and go backstage, leaving fans desiring for much more (I do, at least). I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a FBH, but if there's only one FBH to look forward to for some out-of-game awesomeness out of the dozens of programers, I think it kinda speaks for itself how robotic progamers have been programmed to be.
Also, look at group selection stages. Terrible. No life in them. I don't even bother to watch it for a minute because the progamers lack charisma and confidence on camera. I, for one, think that's one big reason why BW's fanbase is reducing.
There is no obligation for pro gamers to do any of the said Charisma ceremony like Firebathero for he is one of a kind , Let's just say that these is a forceful thing that kespa actually implements these kind of obligation to our pro gamer to do something when they win a game .
To some they would think its just nothing however some of those may not like doing ceremonies like that . I don't see a problem with them doing any fancy most importantly . What I look forward too is their games and not their ceremonies as a bw fan I expect good games to be played that's all . However that's personally how I feel about the matter at hand .
Although I do like the idea that pro gamers should be out reaching and there should be more fbh around the proleague . It's all individual choice for the player to do something outstanding to reach out for their crowds . Bisu's heart shape with his hands to the little girl who always come for his game is already heart warming at the best , Kt' response to us sending a video in responding of our get well card to violet thanking us tl.net bw fan isn't enough in reaching out for the fan . Than I don't know what else is.
Stork reaching out to daniel and taking photo with him and even giving him some gifts aren't players reaching out to their fans . Truthfully speaking we all do expect them to cater to all fans ,lets take pga professional especially big names player some times when they FEEL like it they would go out to the fans and autographs caps and shirts . However at some times they are so ignorant and cold that I wonder why am I even being his fan for all the time . When I could I just go to champions tour and get a much more better show and fan treatment .
No one is putting a pressure for them to do any ceremony and I fail to see not performing ceremony equals dwindling number of broodwar fan. I am a fan of broodwar because of the game and not colourful ceremonies which will make me go wow, so outstanding .
I'm not saying they should be forced to, but I'm just saying that if they did, then it would be so much beneficial in making the BW scene much more attractive and appealing to watch. I like watching sportsmen like Tiger Woods (his scandals aside) and Agassi (no more though) play because they're not afraid to show their emotions, and as a fan, you feel more connected and interested in that player. Why do you think FBH and Leta has so many fans? Even jangbi is gaining more and more popularity, + Show Spoiler [OSL spoilers] +
not just because he's the only Protoss player left in the OSL
, but also because of his smirk that is becoming meme-grade. He's showing emotions, and I think that's a bonus. But as you said, each person's own preference.
Although Bisu and KT examples are undeniable, what I'm looking at is the entire BW fanbase, not just TL's. if they had things like these aired more on channels (MBC used to do all these, but not anymore beyond the end of dec ), then of course it'd be more attractive. MBCGame HERO's players have so much personality that we didn't know, until some MBCGame HERO update blogs, and it made me fall in love with those players even more. Why aren't such sides displayed and only the robotic sides of these players shown on tv?
As you said, no one is putting pressure on them, and I think being forced to isn't the way to go. But as a long-time BW fan who's been around for over eight years, I feel that players need to realise that they too have to play a part in keeping the BW interest going, and it's not just practicing their mechanics and in-game skills.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
Those are hardly what I'm speaking of. What I'm talking about is the display of emotion and some fan-interaction outside of the booth. How many months (or even, years) has it been since you've seen players get close to the fans and do some awesome hi-fives (note: the players ignore hi-fives even as they walk to get their photos taken after they win their games, like in OSL), do a ceremony at the camera or do something other than the usual circling-around-with-team and hi-five. After players in the OSL win, they do a simple V-pose, do a fist-shake or two and go backstage, leaving fans desiring for much more (I do, at least). I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a FBH, but if there's only one FBH to look forward to for some out-of-game awesomeness out of the dozens of programers, I think it kinda speaks for itself how robotic progamers have been programmed to be.
Also, look at group selection stages. Terrible. No life in them. I don't even bother to watch it for a minute because the progamers lack charisma and confidence on camera. I, for one, think that's one big reason why BW's fanbase is reducing.
There is no obligation for pro gamers to do any of the said Charisma ceremony like Firebathero for he is one of a kind , Let's just say that these is a forceful thing that kespa actually implements these kind of obligation to our pro gamer to do something when they win a game .
To some they would think its just nothing however some of those may not like doing ceremonies like that . I don't see a problem with them doing any fancy most importantly . What I look forward too is their games and not their ceremonies as a bw fan I expect good games to be played that's all . However that's personally how I feel about the matter at hand .
Although I do like the idea that pro gamers should be out reaching and there should be more fbh around the proleague . It's all individual choice for the player to do something outstanding to reach out for their crowds . Bisu's heart shape with his hands to the little girl who always come for his game is already heart warming at the best , Kt' response to us sending a video in responding of our get well card to violet thanking us tl.net bw fan isn't enough in reaching out for the fan . Than I don't know what else is.
Stork reaching out to daniel and taking photo with him and even giving him some gifts aren't players reaching out to their fans . Truthfully speaking we all do expect them to cater to all fans ,lets take pga professional especially big names player some times when they FEEL like it they would go out to the fans and autographs caps and shirts . However at some times they are so ignorant and cold that I wonder why am I even being his fan for all the time . When I could I just go to champions tour and get a much more better show and fan treatment .
No one is putting a pressure for them to do any ceremony and I fail to see not performing ceremony equals dwindling number of broodwar fan. I am a fan of broodwar because of the game and not colourful ceremonies which will make me go wow, so outstanding .
I'm not saying they should be forced to, but I'm just saying that if they did, then it would be so much beneficial in making the BW scene much more attractive and appealing to watch. I like watching sportsmen like Tiger Woods (his scandals aside) and Agassi (no more though) play because they're not afraid to show their emotions, and as a fan, you feel more connected and interested in that player. Why do you think FBH and Leta has so many fans? Even jangbi is gaining more and more popularity, + Show Spoiler [OSL spoilers] +
not just because he's the only Protoss player left in the OSL
, but also because of his smirk that is becoming meme-grade. He's showing emotions, and I think that's a bonus. But as you said, each person's own preference.
Although Bisu and KT examples are undeniable, what I'm looking at is the entire BW fanbase, not just TL's. if they had things like these aired more on channels (MBC used to do all these, but not anymore beyond the end of dec ), then of course it'd be more attractive. MBCGame HERO's players have so much personality that we didn't know, until some MBCGame HERO update blogs, and it made me fall in love with those players even more. Why aren't such sides displayed and only the robotic sides of these players shown on tv?
As you said, no one is putting pressure on them, and I think being forced to isn't the way to go. But as a long-time BW fan who's been around for over eight years, I feel that players need to realise that they too have to play a part in keeping the BW interest going, and it's not just practicing their mechanics and in-game skills.
The thing is I do agree with you that they should reach out to their fans more and show more interesting side to their fans rather than high five my team mates and sit down at team bench.But unless we put these up some where for teams to read with a big sign " Hey we need more fan interaction here so things will get more interesting " Teams than would not prioritized spending on fan until the things that you have said is brought up to them .
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
Those are hardly what I'm speaking of. What I'm talking about is the display of emotion and some fan-interaction outside of the booth. How many months (or even, years) has it been since you've seen players get close to the fans and do some awesome hi-fives (note: the players ignore hi-fives even as they walk to get their photos taken after they win their games, like in OSL), do a ceremony at the camera or do something other than the usual circling-around-with-team and hi-five. After players in the OSL win, they do a simple V-pose, do a fist-shake or two and go backstage, leaving fans desiring for much more (I do, at least). I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a FBH, but if there's only one FBH to look forward to for some out-of-game awesomeness out of the dozens of programers, I think it kinda speaks for itself how robotic progamers have been programmed to be.
Also, look at group selection stages. Terrible. No life in them. I don't even bother to watch it for a minute because the progamers lack charisma and confidence on camera. I, for one, think that's one big reason why BW's fanbase is reducing.
There is no obligation for pro gamers to do any of the said Charisma ceremony like Firebathero for he is one of a kind , Let's just say that these is a forceful thing that kespa actually implements these kind of obligation to our pro gamer to do something when they win a game .
To some they would think its just nothing however some of those may not like doing ceremonies like that . I don't see a problem with them doing any fancy most importantly . What I look forward too is their games and not their ceremonies as a bw fan I expect good games to be played that's all . However that's personally how I feel about the matter at hand .
Although I do like the idea that pro gamers should be out reaching and there should be more fbh around the proleague . It's all individual choice for the player to do something outstanding to reach out for their crowds . Bisu's heart shape with his hands to the little girl who always come for his game is already heart warming at the best , Kt' response to us sending a video in responding of our get well card to violet thanking us tl.net bw fan isn't enough in reaching out for the fan . Than I don't know what else is.
Stork reaching out to daniel and taking photo with him and even giving him some gifts aren't players reaching out to their fans . Truthfully speaking we all do expect them to cater to all fans ,lets take pga professional especially big names player some times when they FEEL like it they would go out to the fans and autographs caps and shirts . However at some times they are so ignorant and cold that I wonder why am I even being his fan for all the time . When I could I just go to champions tour and get a much more better show and fan treatment .
No one is putting a pressure for them to do any ceremony and I fail to see not performing ceremony equals dwindling number of broodwar fan. I am a fan of broodwar because of the game and not colourful ceremonies which will make me go wow, so outstanding .
I'm not saying they should be forced to, but I'm just saying that if they did, then it would be so much beneficial in making the BW scene much more attractive and appealing to watch. I like watching sportsmen like Tiger Woods (his scandals aside) and Agassi (no more though) play because they're not afraid to show their emotions, and as a fan, you feel more connected and interested in that player. Why do you think FBH and Leta has so many fans? Even jangbi is gaining more and more popularity, + Show Spoiler [OSL spoilers] +
not just because he's the only Protoss player left in the OSL
, but also because of his smirk that is becoming meme-grade. He's showing emotions, and I think that's a bonus. But as you said, each person's own preference.
Although Bisu and KT examples are undeniable, what I'm looking at is the entire BW fanbase, not just TL's. if they had things like these aired more on channels (MBC used to do all these, but not anymore beyond the end of dec ), then of course it'd be more attractive. MBCGame HERO's players have so much personality that we didn't know, until some MBCGame HERO update blogs, and it made me fall in love with those players even more. Why aren't such sides displayed and only the robotic sides of these players shown on tv?
As you said, no one is putting pressure on them, and I think being forced to isn't the way to go. But as a long-time BW fan who's been around for over eight years, I feel that players need to realise that they too have to play a part in keeping the BW interest going, and it's not just practicing their mechanics and in-game skills.
The thing is I do agree with you that they should reach out to their fans more and show more interesting side to their fans rather than high five my team mates and sit down at team bench.But unless we put these up some where for teams to read with a big sign " Hey we need more fan interaction here so things will get more interesting " Teams than would not prioritized spending on fan until the things that you have said is brought up to them .
yeah.. i seriously doubt a lot of players recognise and understand this. i think it was boxer who criticized players for being too robotic and mechanical in an interview, saying they lack passion or somewhere along the lines. he's right. a lot of players are, in my view, only interested in keeping their salary safe and the team's image clean, and not considering the view of BW as a whole. we need people to take over the passions of players like Boxer, Nal_rA, YellOw and others who think for bw and ESPORTS as a collective whole, and for its well-being.
On September 06 2011 21:34 rplant wrote: Anyone know what the ratings for televised BW in SK have been like over the past few years? Did viewership decline suddenly, or has it been dropping off for a long time?
We know that the ProLeague 10-11 numbers were highest among all cable shows which was good, but the only other thing we heard about overall ratings is from Milkis' twitter :
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Someone got some hard numbers regarding TV ratings for OGN and MBC Game... it doesn't look good. (70th and 60th respectively).
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Basically: OGN has a sixth of the rating they had in 2007, MBC has a third of what they had in 2007.
So yeah looked grim if that's the case =(
But, the two "contradicting statistics" show that maybe there is something wrong with the overall format then because the PL finals shows the interest in the game as a whole is still very high. But probably the format in which teams play each other over and over and over again feels very draggy and reduces the significance of each matches. Therefore, people do not feel compelled to watch it.
And the playoff format is also a little weird imo and bad for viewership. Why have the format as one in which the best and most successful team ( as well as the most popular) wait in the final and only play one game? This is the team that will attract the viewers. In normal sports, the broadcasters will sell Yankess / Redsox / Lakers / Celtics / Manchester United / Liverpool / Barcelona games and show it at the best time and try to "exploit " them by showing these teams as much as possible because of their huge number of supporters.
PL does the contrary. I think just normal playoff system with seedings should be fine. Maybe this unusual format caused the decline in non- final ratings as well.
Interesting point there, and I believe it is very applicable to the SCBW scene as well. During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Let me recall one example: Stork made a small half-joke insult at Kwanro about losing on his birthday. Kwanro took slight offense to it (as intended) and was fired up for their next encounter. While that's all good and not over the limit by any means, netizens went wild over the incident, terrorizing each player's personal space. Korean players all know the consequences of breaking the norm. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
I may have derailed myself a bit, so back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. It's undeniable that the match-fixing scandal and Blizzard vs. KeSPA drama dealt serious damage to our beloved SCBW scene, but the players and the fans haven't been helping themselves either.
right on. exactly what i've been telling others as well. the players are so blend and generic and characterless, it's to the point of slightly disgusting.
Not today my friend there was lots of emotion hovering around the booth and off booth and I can see all the emotions on Soo face which blatantly showed everything he was thinking off screen . So much emotions going back and forth between the players and jangbi smirking today did it for me . Dead ?Time to move on ? The crowd today attending todays semi final might beg to differ.
Those are hardly what I'm speaking of. What I'm talking about is the display of emotion and some fan-interaction outside of the booth. How many months (or even, years) has it been since you've seen players get close to the fans and do some awesome hi-fives (note: the players ignore hi-fives even as they walk to get their photos taken after they win their games, like in OSL), do a ceremony at the camera or do something other than the usual circling-around-with-team and hi-five. After players in the OSL win, they do a simple V-pose, do a fist-shake or two and go backstage, leaving fans desiring for much more (I do, at least). I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a FBH, but if there's only one FBH to look forward to for some out-of-game awesomeness out of the dozens of programers, I think it kinda speaks for itself how robotic progamers have been programmed to be.
Also, look at group selection stages. Terrible. No life in them. I don't even bother to watch it for a minute because the progamers lack charisma and confidence on camera. I, for one, think that's one big reason why BW's fanbase is reducing.
This is a video game, not WWE. There is no rule that says the players shouldn't show emotions or do ceremonies. The reason why they don't is either because they are too shy, or because they lack the inspiration. You don't expect football teams to joke around before games, so why would you expect it from a Starcraft team? If you want to make things more interesting, then you have to make something outside of the regular match format, and they already do that, with shows like Battlenet Attack and the various reality shows. I don't know what else they can do. If the problem is that the scene is oversaturated, things should turn out fine in the end. If the problem is bigger than that, it's probably that new people aren't interested anymore because they think the game is too old. However, looking at how many ppl still attends these events, I don't think this is a problem right now, but it might be in the future. The big issue here is most likely Blizzard and SC2. Either they jumped ship because they lost respect for KESPA, or they did it because they fear SC2, and don't want to invest anymore into BW.
I did the MBC blog because most people here thought MBC was a boring team. Other teams have some personality too, it's just that there's noone on TL to track their activities.
Regarding ceremonies, wasn't there some rule that was made regarding "offensive" ceremonies a few years ago. Before that, players did a lot funnier stuff. That rule, among others, needs to go.
On September 06 2011 07:02 Ciryandor wrote: Don't blame the KPop, blame the guy at the top. KPop and BW can coexist. It's just that certain people think we shouldn't have BW and have KPop all day.
Agreed. Besides if there was no kpop it would be some other thing like reality shows (Survival - Pro Gamer edition) or maybe import shows like 24 (Korean edition!).
On September 10 2011 15:53 ShadeR wrote: Ehh I'm happy not having 60 Idras.
But from my point of view, match between Idra and Nony at TSL2 was the most interesting and intense thing. It was much more interesting than finals, in my opinion.
On September 10 2011 15:53 ShadeR wrote: Ehh I'm happy not having 60 Idras.
I don't know about that. Personality is a good way to get people into the game, and from there they like people based on skill as well. I'm a big Hyuk fan (though more for his Hyukking up tendency, really). There are lots of FBH fans. Idra himself is a terrible BW player and a pretty bad SC2 player nowadays, but still has a decent fandom. Destiny is I think solely SC2, but the best example I can think of for this kind of thing (If anyone knows a good BW equivalent, I'll use him instead). If Brood War is to grow, it needs more "gateway players" who are interesting in and of themselves. I sometimes wonder if what BW could use is a funny guy in C- with a stream who posts to r/starcraft.
I don't know if Brood War should be taking itself so srs at the more middle levels of play. Obviously, the players should legit be trying their best, but maybe a few community-focused things wouldn't hurt. I understand the desire not to be the WWE, but we needn't be golf.
On September 10 2011 15:53 ShadeR wrote: Ehh I'm happy not having 60 Idras.
But from my point of view, match between Idra and Nony at TSL2 was the most interesting and intense thing. It was much more interesting than finals, in my opinion.
Well Chalrenge and FBH went to do military service and Rock became a coach. So a bunch of the showboats went off to do other things. It wasn't that long ago that FBH stripped and jumped into the ocean.
Really sad to see this go. Granted I haven't played a game of bw in months and have all but completely switched over to sc2, I still feel pained seeing MBCGame leaving sc and gaming behind. Its like hearing that your favorite cartoon as a child was just cancelled. All the fun and joy that it brought to you won't be spread to new people and that really makes me sad.
On September 13 2011 04:57 MangoTango wrote: So is there nothing at al lwe can do about this?
Probably not. Best thing we can do it just to try and re-ignite the foreign BW scene (it can be done!) as much as possible, and hope KeSPA notices us and tries to monetize us. The time to support BW is now, and it means sponsoring tournaments, posting about BW in r/starcraft to try and convert to new SC2 fans to BW (which I'm seeing more and more people doing, with increasing success!), emulate the Touhou fandom and produce BW-meme art, music, etc. Post cheerfuls on your dorm room walls or your desks at your jobs. All that stuff, and try and take off again.
The next season of the GSL has 20 Terrans in the Ro32, and a lot of SC2 fans are less than enthused for the next month of GSL. I think October is the month for BW fans to go all-out with a full-court press and try to get as many new faces in the scene as possible. Start streaming! Do commentary! Support BW by making more content!
On September 13 2011 04:57 MangoTango wrote: So is there nothing at al lwe can do about this?
Probably not. Best thing we can do it just to try and re-ignite the foreign BW scene (it can be done!) as much as possible, and hope KeSPA notices us and tries to monetize us. The time to support BW is now, and it means sponsoring tournaments, posting about BW in r/starcraft to try and convert to new SC2 fans to BW (which I'm seeing more and more people doing, with increasing success!), emulate the Touhou fandom and produce BW-meme art, music, etc. Post cheerfuls on your dorm room walls or your desks at your jobs. All that stuff, and try and take off again.
The next season of the GSL has 20 Terrans in the Ro32, and a lot of SC2 fans are less than enthused for the next month of GSL. I think October is the month for BW fans to go all-out with a full-court press and try to get as many new faces in the scene as possible. Start streaming! Do commentary! Support BW by making more content!
I don't think our numbers have any impact on the Korean scene, especially considering we watch streams
On September 13 2011 04:57 MangoTango wrote: So is there nothing at al lwe can do about this?
Probably not. Best thing we can do it just to try and re-ignite the foreign BW scene (it can be done!) as much as possible, and hope KeSPA notices us and tries to monetize us. The time to support BW is now, and it means sponsoring tournaments, posting about BW in r/starcraft to try and convert to new SC2 fans to BW (which I'm seeing more and more people doing, with increasing success!), emulate the Touhou fandom and produce BW-meme art, music, etc. Post cheerfuls on your dorm room walls or your desks at your jobs. All that stuff, and try and take off again.
The next season of the GSL has 20 Terrans in the Ro32, and a lot of SC2 fans are less than enthused for the next month of GSL. I think October is the month for BW fans to go all-out with a full-court press and try to get as many new faces in the scene as possible. Start streaming! Do commentary! Support BW by making more content!
I don't think our numbers have any impact on the Korean scene, especially considering we watch streams
That's why we need to increase them. GSL allegedly makes 2.5 million dollars a year of the foreign fans buying VOD tickets. Even 10% of that would help make BW more profitable. Even getting together and setting up a $5k or something tournament for lower-tier BW players from Korea? We could do it. And it's not an absurd goal, either, TwitchTV sponsored the ISL2, even at our current size. Let's get Tossgirl into a tournament!
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
Okay BW dying doesn't mean that SC2 will grew ultimate or otherwise. Brood War's gameplay is by far have the superiority over the younger brother, what makes you think that SC2 will just end up the same way as Brood War? When all the BW greats move over to Starcraft 2, the whole paradigm will shift toward the Korean direction, sounds familliar having SK dominating over a game? Foreigner will get no chance to develop since the BW mechanics is just that much advantageous. And sooner or later, SC2 will end up just like BW.
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
this is just a really stupid statement, even when applied to any other topics.. lol
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
I hate to say this, but gtfo of the bw section then.
ps. mbcgame shutting down doesn't help sc2's future, just means there's 1 less gaming channel that sc2 will never be on if there ever is a switch to sc2, which i doubt will happen anyway.
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
this is just a really stupid statement, even when applied to any other topics.. lol
Indeed. If anything, the death of BW will do more harm than good.
It's obvious that what BW needs at the moment, in its most simplistic form, is attention; and as such, I must reiterate that TL's removal of BW content such as R&S / PR (which have grown to be staples of TL throughout the years) from the main page was a bad idea.
There's plenty of space to include both SC2 AND BW content. This isn't the time to shun BW into a corner.
EDIT: Actually, I should rephrase that: it's not that BW needs attention, as MBCGame shutting down doesn't really have anything to do with BW (since it's still very popular). I understand that the problem is with the execs at MBCGame who feel they might make more money by turning their video game channel into a music channel. But my point still stands.
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
this is just a really stupid statement, even when applied to any other topics.. lol
Indeed. If anything, the death of BW will do more harm than good.
It's obvious that what BW needs at the moment, in its most simplistic form, is attention; and as such, I must reiterate that TL's removal of BW content such as R&S / PR (which have grown to be staples of TL throughout the years) from the main page was a bad idea.
There's plenty of space to include both SC2 AND BW content. This isn't the time to shun BW into a corner.
EDIT: Actually, I should rephrase that: it's not that BW needs attention, as MBCGame shutting down doesn't really have anything to do with BW (since it's still very popular). I understand that the problem is with the execs at MBCGame who feel they might make more money by turning their video game channel into a music channel. But my point still stands.
I agree, but the content also needs to be dynamic and in high quantity. BW unfortunately never took off outside Korea like it did inside Korea, so we have relatively limited news stories. And KeSPA really didn't push the foreign scene as much as they could have. And a lot of the recent high quality BW posts reference memories or history that a new comer really can't relate to or has any emotional connection too.
These memories need to grow naturally and not simply be, go back and watch a VoD. It doesn't carry the same weight as someone who was in the LR thread talking it up as it happened. We need not just more space to display report content, but we need more content from the source in general.
Also, I know BW vs. SC2 is bad news bears, but I jut wanted to put this out there....
Jaedong -> Tiara? Look I know its not Oz, but I think Tiara can really provide a good team experience to build on the Oz skills Jaedong has. Furthermore, he will be able to provide good results on stage with the organized (almost choreographed) support from his teammates....
I am so not ready to see BW die, much more put up with watching VODs of you-know-what. Oh well, I guess corporate benefits are more important to MBC. :\
@Alltomata People that say that sorta stuff clearly have no understanding of the whole picture. Seriously if your going to start this again maybe someone should ban him before he keeps at it. :l
@Torpedo.Vegas
What the heck is a Tiara? Gundam 00???
My input in this is that no matter what happens BW will still live on. It was the best of times it was the worst of times...
although mbcgame is closing, im really psyched up for fantasy vs jangbi, i kinda wanted stork to win last season to build up hype and i hope jangbi can avenge his comrade and slay the terrorist and rescue the protoss race. i always been a fan of jangbi ever since i saw his game on destination vs bisu.
On September 15 2011 11:15 Alltomata wrote: I hate to say this, because I never played Broodwar nor do I know about any leagues/tournaments, but I think it's good that the Broodwar scene is dying (this is AWFUL to say) because the Starcraft 2 scene will ultimately grow. I'm not saying SC2 is better, I'm saying I like the SC2 scene more, and that I'm excited to see BW greats move over to Starcraft 2.
On September 16 2011 09:05 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Jaedong -> Tiara? Look I know its not Oz, but I think Tiara can really provide a good team experience to build on the Oz skills Jaedong has. Furthermore, he will be able to provide good results on stage with the organized (almost choreographed) support from his teammates....
Starcraft chobos don't understand: this is not about bw dying, it's about literally HALF of all televised esports disappearing in Korea. This is not good for any game or any progamers.
On September 16 2011 15:25 rift wrote: starcraft chobos don't understand: this is not about bw dying, it's about literally HALF of all televised esports disappearing in korea. this is not good for any game and all progamers.
To be fair, about 80% of televised gaming in Korea is Starcraft.
On September 16 2011 14:18 Gamegene wrote: Anyone else really sick and tired of hearing the phrase "BW dieing"?
I am. There's a huge difference between "can't support its current size in this economy" and "dead".
Guy guys sixjax disband SC2 is dyinnnnnnnnnnnnn WAHHHHHH XD.
Oh man, it's common knowledge among all the SC2 teams that at some point the growth will slow down and like half the teams and tournaments will collapse because they were counting on that growth, (leaving the survivors to rule as kings). Since BW will have long since stabilized by then, you guys are going be just as insufferable then as a lot of SC2 fanboys are now. "SC2 is dying!" "Digitas went out of business? I wonder if we'll see Naniwa on KT". "There's this new game, guys, it's called Brood War. It's the future". That'll be both annoying and hilarious. Look forward to it!
Though, in a way, that's kind of what's happening now with BW. Not death, but consolidation. Think of BW's current trials like the collapse of the dot-com bubble. Sure, MBCGame is the pets.com, but that just makes OnGameNet the Amazon. The OSL will be stronger now as a result of this.
On September 16 2011 15:25 rift wrote: starcraft chobos don't understand: this is not about bw dying, it's about literally HALF of all televised esports disappearing in korea. this is not good for any game and all progamers.
To be fair, about 80% of televised gaming in Korea is Starcraft.
What I'm saying is 5-6 digit salaried BW progamers will not duke it out for a measly code s prize pool; they will move on if OGN doesn't take the reigns and makes BW run strong. If it "dies", SC2 doesn't have a chance in hell, because by comparison no one cares about it in Korea.
On September 16 2011 14:18 Gamegene wrote: Anyone else really sick and tired of hearing the phrase "BW dieing"?
I am. There's a huge difference between "can't support its current size in this economy" and "dead".
Guy guys sixjax disband SC2 is dyinnnnnnnnnnnnn WAHHHHHH XD.
Oh man, it's common knowledge among all the SC2 teams that at some point the growth will slow down and like half the teams and tournaments will collapse because they were counting on that growth, (leaving the survivors to rule as kings). Since BW will have long since stabilized by then, you guys are going be just as insufferable then as a lot of SC2 fanboys are now. "SC2 is dying!" "Digitas went out of business? I wonder if we'll see Naniwa on KT". "There's this new game, guys, it's called Brood War. It's the future". That'll be both annoying and hilarious. Look forward to it!
Though, in a way, that's kind of what's happening now with BW. Not death, but consolidation. Think of BW's current trials like the collapse of the dot-com bubble. Sure, MBCGame is the pets.com, but that just makes OnGameNet the Amazon. The OSL will be stronger now as a result of this.
I look forward to this day.
Also, here's hoping this works out ok - and BW manages to survive in spite of all this.
Guys this is in the front page, "No BW vs SC2 in this topic; you're making it worse for both scene by arguing such crap in here." I still don't understand why some people keep doing it though. You would think some would read the front page before posting anything.
On September 16 2011 14:18 Gamegene wrote: Anyone else really sick and tired of hearing the phrase "BW dieing"?
I am. There's a huge difference between "can't support its current size in this economy" and "dead".
Guy guys sixjax disband SC2 is dyinnnnnnnnnnnnn WAHHHHHH XD.
Oh man, it's common knowledge among all the SC2 teams that at some point the growth will slow down and like half the teams and tournaments will collapse because they were counting on that growth, (leaving the survivors to rule as kings). Since BW will have long since stabilized by then, you guys are going be just as insufferable then as a lot of SC2 fanboys are now. "SC2 is dying!" "Digitas went out of business? I wonder if we'll see Naniwa on KT". "There's this new game, guys, it's called Brood War. It's the future". That'll be both annoying and hilarious. Look forward to it!
Though, in a way, that's kind of what's happening now with BW. Not death, but consolidation. Think of BW's current trials like the collapse of the dot-com bubble. Sure, MBCGame is the pets.com, but that just makes OnGameNet the Amazon. The OSL will be stronger now as a result of this.
Heres 25 esports dollars to fix your online sarcasm machine.
BW between 2000-2010 was a caterpillar. It would wiggle around and eat lots of money leaves and slowly get fat and hairy. Now in 2011, it is so fat and hairy that it got REALLY self-conscious and covered itself in a cocoon of shame and hubris. In the cocoon, it cannot eat any money leaves or do anything interesting because it is in a cocoon and cocoons are not easy to do things in. Soon, BW will hatch from the cocoon and turn into a BEAUTIFUL butterfly and travel all around the world spreading KeSPA pollen all over the faces of ESPORTS fans. It will be very flamboyant like a K-pop dude singer. Then eventually, it will die, but not before laying many Brood War eggs in the brains of the unsuspecting children, that when they are older, hatch and bring a new BW wave in the form of a revived BW remake.
On September 17 2011 05:02 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: BW between 2000-2010 was a caterpillar. It would wiggle around and eat lots of money leaves and slowly get fat and hairy. Now in 2011, it is so fat and hairy that it got REALLY self-conscious and covered itself in a cocoon of shame and hubris. In the cocoon, it cannot eat any money leaves or do anything interesting because it is in a cocoon and cocoons are not easy to do things in. Soon, BW will hatch from the cocoon and turn into a BEAUTIFUL butterfly and travel all around the world spreading KeSPA pollen all over the faces of ESPORTS fans. It will be very flamboyant like a K-pop dude singer. Then eventually, it will die, but not before laying many Brood War eggs in the brains of the unsuspecting children, that when they are older, hatch and bring a new BW wave in the form of a revived BW remake.
BW won't die. I'm just not thinking it will grow. There isn't a large enough fan base motivated to show what the scene is really about. Just a lot of people who like to talk about how great the scene is and list reasons why we should love it. Us younger ones can't form the connections or understand the rivalries that are so amazing between players. Not to mention the skill ceiling is too high for new players to jump on it, there's too few new players and it's too hard to set up the servers for the lazy generation. Nobody is going to read a 13 page manual on how to learn build orders and how to make the best usage of apm, it's just too complicated. The biggest thing is lack of personal connection with the game though, definitely.
BW won't be dying, but I'd expect the scene to remain largely the same, even if SC2 suffered a major loss, they'd most likely find a game other than BW to play due to the non-existent scene outside of Korea.
Still, it's a terrible thing to shut down a game channel, and really hurts every game being broadcasted =/
On September 17 2011 22:12 JIJIyO wrote: Yo, I iz like mad stupidz yu erd (Ali G voice).
So, even after googling I need an explanation lol. So concurrent is, for example:
I view once. Turn off stream, then tune in again 5 minutes later. This counts for two views, correct?
no, concurrent is current # of people on stream. The number displayed simply showed the number of times viewers connected (supposedly), so yeah, turn of stream -> 2 views.
still, that's probably at least 100k people watching O_O
On September 17 2011 05:02 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: BW between 2000-2010 was a caterpillar. It would wiggle around and eat lots of money leaves and slowly get fat and hairy. Now in 2011, it is so fat and hairy that it got REALLY self-conscious and covered itself in a cocoon of shame and hubris. In the cocoon, it cannot eat any money leaves or do anything interesting because it is in a cocoon and cocoons are not easy to do things in. Soon, BW will hatch from the cocoon and turn into a BEAUTIFUL butterfly and travel all around the world spreading KeSPA pollen all over the faces of ESPORTS fans. It will be very flamboyant like a K-pop dude singer. Then eventually, it will die, but not before laying many Brood War eggs in the brains of the unsuspecting children, that when they are older, hatch and bring a new BW wave in the form of a revived BW remake.
I believe people were mistaken when they said it said 3million viewers i think somebody on reddit said it actually says 3 million views Edit: But either way its still really really good
On September 18 2011 00:44 Midgetman101 wrote: I believe people were mistaken when they said it said 3million viewers i think somebody on reddit said it actually says 3 million views Edit: But either way its still really really good
It was a live event so shouldn't views be very close to viewers?
On September 18 2011 00:44 Midgetman101 wrote: I believe people were mistaken when they said it said 3million viewers i think somebody on reddit said it actually says 3 million views Edit: But either way its still really really good
It was a live event so shouldn't views be very close to viewers?
You would think so, but no. MLG Anaheim had something like 40 million views, which equated to about 100k concurrent viewers at any one time, and about a million viewers in total.
Of course, MLG is a three day event and the OSL finals were four hours, so it'd be a lot closer to the real number, there.
Even at MLG's 40/1 views to viewers ratio, though, that's 83,500 viewers. For comparison, the NASL grand finals peaked at around 85,000 concurrent viewers, so that's still an impressive number that BW fans should be happy with. And, again, a 3-hour event probably has a much closer views/views ratio than a 3-day one.
Since MLG was three days, and we'll say 8 hours/day, we can multiply the 83,500 by 8 to get 668,000. But I feel like that's overstating it dramatically. The 83,500 number sounds closer to what I'm used to over in SC2land, but I'm going to call that a lowball estimate.
Either way, this is really really good news for BW, because these are 80,000+ new fans who haven't been monetized in any way yet. It's a new market that's promising!
On September 17 2011 17:08 craz3d wrote: It really is all about the players. Not the professionals, but people who play the game. As long as there are players, the game will not die.
I'd go a step further and say it's the players that matter, not the game. I feel really bad for all the potential rookies and b-teamers that will have to move on - and by "move on", I don't mean going to another game; I mean exiting the esports scene.
I'm not sure if the numbers from China really mean much, since the last time Kespa tried to do something in China the Korean fans got angry. I think they'd probably be better off focusing on the home front.
On September 18 2011 00:44 Midgetman101 wrote: I believe people were mistaken when they said it said 3million viewers i think somebody on reddit said it actually says 3 million views Edit: But either way its still really really good
It was a live event so shouldn't views be very close to viewers?
You would think so, but no. MLG Anaheim had something like 40 million views, which equated to about 100k concurrent viewers at any one time, and about a million viewers in total.
Of course, MLG is a three day event and the OSL finals were four hours, so it'd be a lot closer to the real number, there.
Even at MLG's 40/1 views to viewers ratio, though, that's 83,500 viewers. For comparison, the NASL grand finals peaked at around 85,000 concurrent viewers, so that's still an impressive number that BW fans should be happy with. And, again, a 3-hour event probably has a much closer views/views ratio than a 3-day one.
Since MLG was three days, and we'll say 8 hours/day, we can multiply the 83,500 by 8 to get 668,000. But I feel like that's overstating it dramatically. The 83,500 number sounds closer to what I'm used to over in SC2land, but I'm going to call that a lowball estimate.
Either way, this is really really good news for BW, because these are 80,000+ new fans who haven't been monetized in any way yet. It's a new market that's promising!
I forgot two important things.
1. There was another stream with 6.6 million views. 2. MLG had four streams, and people bounced from one to another, either between games entirely (rarely, I'd imagine) or between the two SC2 streams (more commonly). Thus, my 83,500 figure is lowballing even more than I thought.
So, at 10 million views (the two streams combined) divided by 40 (the only number I have, which is almost certainly understating things in this specific situation), we have ~250,000 viewers. That's much bigger than the NASL finals, implying that China has enough of a BW scene to make their own decent sized professional league, which could theoretically rival Koreans after a few years practice. Right now, Dreamhack just tweeted that it looks like they got more than 100k viewers at peak. So yeah. Still a big number. I think Chinese BW could still be bigger than SC2 all on its own.
Hell, all OGN needs to do is make an official stream with Chinese ads (and Chinese commentators), and they'll get a pretty nice influx of cash. Maybe have some random pro league games in China.
On September 18 2011 08:27 Redmark wrote: I'm not sure if the numbers from China really mean much, since the last time Kespa tried to do something in China the Korean fans got angry. I think they'd probably be better off focusing on the home front.
Prestigious invitational tournaments (TBLS + other popular progamers) in China during the off-seasons would be a good way to tap the Chinese market, at least if they were to broadcast Ro4+finals there.
On September 18 2011 08:27 Redmark wrote: I'm not sure if the numbers from China really mean much, since the last time Kespa tried to do something in China the Korean fans got angry. I think they'd probably be better off focusing on the home front.
Prestigious invitational tournaments (TBLS + other popular progamers) in China during the off-seasons would be a good way to tap the Chinese market, at least if they were to broadcast Ro4+finals there.
Well they would have to do something soon I would think, if they did anything at all. 3 million viewers is pretty awesome and considering China's population, still has a lot of room to grow. But it does not exist in a bubble. With moba games like LoL and DoTA2 growing rapidly over there as well as direct Starcraft related competition from Starcraft 2, the target demographics time could end up being taken up by those games.
BW needs to find a way to consolidate its resources and upgrade the marketing to a global scale, even if its just online. A well made english site with VoD's, Player stat pages, Historical records (all the way to 2000 would be awesome, and just a good place for BW centered discussion and information exchange would really help. Especially if it is supported by BW organizations like KeSPA, OGN, MBC, etc.
Team Liquid has been good for the community (I'm new, but I would assume this is the case), but its third party/unofficial standing as the go to Starcraft meet up has limited it in terms of resources. The needs to go through third party restreams at ungodly hours, lack of consistent english commentators, and poor communication with the events and organizers themselves really stunted the ultimate growth potential of BW I feel.
Perhaps they can turn it around before its really too late and they do not have the money or personnel to even do that much.
On September 18 2011 08:27 Redmark wrote: I'm not sure if the numbers from China really mean much, since the last time Kespa tried to do something in China the Korean fans got angry. I think they'd probably be better off focusing on the home front.
Prestigious invitational tournaments (TBLS + other popular progamers) in China during the off-seasons would be a good way to tap the Chinese market, at least if they were to broadcast Ro4+finals there.
BW needs to find a way to consolidate its resources and upgrade the marketing to a global scale, even if its just online. A well made english site with VoD's, Player stat pages, Historical records (all the way to 2000 would be awesome, and just a good place for BW centered discussion and information exchange would really help. Especially if it is supported by BW organizations like KeSPA, OGN, MBC, etc.
Team Liquid has been good for the community (I'm new, but I would assume this is the case), but its third party/unofficial standing as the go to Starcraft meet up has limited it in terms of resources. The needs to go through third party restreams at ungodly hours, lack of consistent english commentators, and poor communication with the events and organizers themselves really stunted the ultimate growth potential of BW I feel.
I don't think it's worth it to expand to foreign (read: non-Chinese i.e. Western) scene at all. It would be a waste of money--not in terms of the sheer cost but in that it would do nothing. I mean, fomos even has an english site, and who here goes and reads that consistently rather than just check tl? The Western fanbase of sc:bw is entirely centered around tl or youtube vods (and commentators on youtube, like nukethestars, are well aware of tl).
I think most people who watch bw watch it for love of the game, rather than english commentary. English commentary is a good way to get into the pro-scene, but it's just not appealing to set up an official english commentator. And bw as a game is not going to have any growth on a mass scale in the western world ever.
Also I don't understand what you mean about poor communication with events and organizers. Korea has been like it has been for years and I'm pretty sure there is no miscommunication. If it's about the foreign scene or WCG, it's not necessarily that organization was bad just that the game wasn't going to bring in tons of new people in the games market. If you took any year, say 2005, bw was already 7 years old (wc 3 was 3 years old as well). Those games weren't going to be flying off the shelves. You wouldn't be getting major corporate sponsorship for those events (and even if you did, the money would be minimal. tsl 1 had razor and that was a 10k prize pool, small compared to the random newer tournaments that all have that as a pool).
I think its really sad for MBCGame to go offline but after my visit in Seoul, I saw a lot of indicators for this situation and some people here should realize this... The LOOX mall where all the broodwar-live MBCGame broadcasts took place (and maybe some of the offices are?) is ABANDONED! There aren't really any shops open, it rather looked like a creepy ghost town. There isn't a place in Austria looking like this mess. Especially the front was rather a construction site than a top modern esports arena. Mullae itself is far from being a prestigious area.... there's an old fashioned market for fruits and vegetables outside and it rather looked like Moran market were dogs get sold...And this is whats going on next to LOOX! No flashy shops and malls in this region were ppl would love to go to....
Even this market was a ghost town...Did Stork eat vegetables here? LOOX on the right side..
Looking back in our beloved SC history, the old MBCGame arena was at COEX, a top notch super huge shopping paradise and also a merchandise shop was located there - everything was closed years ago! Koreans loved to go there but not to LOOX....
I remember when I first visited the MBCGame studios, there were maybe max. 15 people in the audience and it is rather smaller than people might think of it seeing it on the screen.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/data/file/free_11/991178022_r5JpUiyn_SSSSSS.JPG)
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