On July 28 2011 14:53 Lebesgue wrote: I don't care about SC2. Different game. But I agree with other people about the constant influx of trolls in the BW threads which are annoying as hell.
And I have to say that since SC2 was released I fell that the number of trolls has increased significantly. Also I'm under impression SC2 fans are younger than average BW fan (make sense since SC1 was released in 1998) and hence less mature which I find also annoying.
But to re-iterate: "I just don't care about SC2; at all, whatsoever."
I feel the same Remember when we were able to talk about BW in IRC, yeah that changed, now there's a IRC channel dedicated just for BW so we can avoid the whole "people still play BW/graphics sucks how can you play that game/etc"
On July 28 2011 14:42 tyCe wrote: However, there's a general trend of SC2-bashing and not specifically SC2 fan-bashing. I get the impression that some BW-exclusive fans are becoming defensive because of the international popularity and fame that SC2 has gotten in just one year, and not to mention the fantastic prize pools. I personally still find BW more enjoyable to watch, but I've found many comments in the BW section about SC2 to be unabashedly biased to the nth degree.
There's some edginess between SC2 and BW fans. Many SC2 fans cannot accept that BW has a higher skill ceiling and that BW pros have dominated the SC2 scene today (international, especially American BW doesn't count since the scene was practically dead and the talent pool had already moved over to WC3). Many BW fans cannot accept that BW as an esport is dying; sponsors are harder to come by, young amateurs are switching over, teams are being disbanded, even TV channels are possibly dropping BW. While I'm sure that as long as the current A and S-class players continue playing, there will be enough fans to sustain pro BW for a while, I really don't think BW will outlast this TBLS era
Flash is the last bonjwa. Stork won't ever make a come back T.T
I don't think so, I mean everyone fully understands BW will die and that isn't the problem. What annoys people are either people coming purposefully to taunt people at any sign of BW's scene having problems. That and the never ending "y u no move on to sc2???"
I don't know about you guys but when BW dies I'll probably wash my hands of RTS and eSports. Tried SC2 (the BW people were the most hyped about sc2 back in the days ) didn't enjoy it. Felt nothing like BW and I don't see a game like BW coming back for a long time so adios~
im hoping on HoTS to at least add more interesting factors into the game like what medics, lurkers, dts etc. did for bw, but im kind of worried since they cant change too much of the original
Okay, after reading several posts, I think the 'resentment' (not hostility) is because of BW elitism. Derr right? lol
BW elitism.
BW is the best game. No other game is better than BW. Everything about BW is interesting. SC2 needs to have the same units as BW. All missing units that are from BW needs to be in SC2 for sc2 to suceed. Units in sc2 needs to have same movement as BW. sc2 needs more restraint on macro to be more 'skillful.' BW is easier to watch because ive only watched sc2 for couple of months whereas bw years. sc2 folks shouldn't say nothin about sc1 cuz they know nothin sc2 is not e-sports. korea rules.
Basically, most of the complaints are not from SC2 folks, but from SC1 elitist. SO what are people talking about sc2 ppl complaining and crap? Almost everysingle sc2 balance thread had BW comparison and shit.
And because sc2 competitve gaming exploded around the world, this comparison is one of the main reason since their beloved fan-site is now covered in goo.
On July 28 2011 15:14 Lokian wrote: Okay, after reading several posts, I think the 'resentment' (not hostility) is because of BW elitism. Derr right? lol
BW elitism.
BW is the best game. No other game is better than BW. Everything about BW is interesting. SC2 needs to have the same units as BW. All missing units that are from BW needs to be in SC2 for sc2 to suceed. Units in sc2 needs to have same movement as BW. sc2 needs more restraint on macro to be more 'skillful.' BW is easier to watch because ive only watched sc2 for couple of months whereas bw years. sc2 folks shouldn't say nothin about sc1 cuz they know nothin sc2 is not e-sports. korea rules.
Basically, most of the complaints are not from SC2 folks, but from SC1 elitist. SO what are people talking about sc2 ppl complaining and crap? Almost everysingle sc2 balance thread had BW comparison and shit.
Most people in this thread doesn't resent SC2 for the most part, they just don't care. It's silly to equate preference for BW (especially in the BW section...) as some sort of zealous quest to resent SC2.
On July 28 2011 15:14 Lokian wrote: Okay, after reading several posts, I think the 'resentment' (not hostility) is because of BW elitism. Derr right? lol
BW elitism.
BW is the best game. No other game is better than BW. Everything about BW is interesting. SC2 needs to have the same units as BW. All missing units that are from BW needs to be in SC2 for sc2 to suceed. Units in sc2 needs to have same movement as BW. sc2 needs more restraint on macro to be more 'skillful.' BW is easier to watch because ive only watched sc2 for couple of months whereas bw years. sc2 folks shouldn't say nothin about sc1 cuz they know nothin sc2 is not e-sports. korea rules.
Basically, most of the complaints are not from SC2 folks, but from SC1 elitist. SO what are people talking about sc2 ppl complaining and crap? Almost everysingle sc2 balance thread had BW comparison and shit.
No, you are clearly wrong. Most of us simply DON'T CARE. How to put it; just because I like caramel ice cream doesn't mean that I like any type of ice creams.
I just don't get it. Why this is so hard to understand. I keep seeing people trying to convince others to play SC2, their friends who don't play, people who play BW etc.
If you enjoy SC2 that's great. But don't think that b/c you like it, everyone else should like it too.
On July 28 2011 15:22 Lokian wrote: im not one to speak about people that like bw but i was talking about bw elitists FYI. SO most of you guys are bw elitists or what?
the word elitist has lost its meaning on TL anyways,everyone is an elitist...
like I said your so called elitists don't give a shit,the ones that do say "elitist" things are the ones that actually give a shit about the development of SC2.
On July 28 2011 14:07 Lokian wrote: Hate is from Blizzard vs Kespa. I think BW fanatics feel like someone is shoving food in their mouth with stopping bw starleagues and throwing money into sc2. Although it's just a matter of IP laws that was ongoing for years, opportunity of sc2 release went both ways for blizzard.
If that didn't happen, bw elitists won't hold much grudge. And the korean culture is very sensitive to foreign culture in regards to how business is ran.
Seeing as the blizz vs kespa has now been resolved, I think this hostility will soon fade in time.
I would disagree with this. The BW vs SC2 hate predates the court case shenanigans that went on. and if you go back even further, you'll find most of TL had a very low view of KESPA. The KESPA vs Blizzard court case gave a focal point for a lot of negativity, but didn't create it.
On July 28 2011 15:22 Lokian wrote: im not one to speak about evyerone that only likes bw but i was talking about bw elitists FYI. SO most of you guys are bw elitists or what?
so people who don't like SC2 are automatically BW elitists to you?
I think it is mostly a matter of ignorance. A lot of the SC2 people haven't been around that long- not just SC, but RTS in general. I've been playing RTS games for around... 20 years? I don't really think the majority of them appreciate how RTS has evolved over time, let alone what makes Broodwar special. But a lot of them think they're authorities on the subject.
The argument that BW is old and destined to die becomes old hat pretty quickly. I'll probably still be playing an occasional game 10-20 years from now (assuming compatibility mode lets me and someone will play me). Sure, the competitive scene is almost surely going to die at some point, but it is really quite rare that a game happens to get everything so it just *feels* right. That's the way SC felt when I played it in 1998, and that's the way it feels now.
I can't really say that for many games... Starcontrol 2, Super Mario Bros 3. That's about all that comes to the top of my head.
At any rate, that's one of many, annoying statements made almost everywhere. Pprobably one of the better arguments made by the trolls too, so... yeah, it gets annoying. Also have to keep in mind the average post in the SC2 forum is borderline unintelligible. It is really painful to read a lot of posts in that forum. I don't think a lot of people necessarily mind the fact that the SC2 forum/streams/schedule exist, but rather the fact that it almost completely obscures BW content. Sifting through a billion small SC2 tournaments to know when a MSL semifinal is can be quite annoying.
On July 28 2011 15:14 Lokian wrote: Okay, after reading several posts, I think the 'resentment' (not hostility) is because of BW elitism. Derr right? lol
BW elitism.
BW is the best game. No other game is better than BW. Everything about BW is interesting. SC2 needs to have the same units as BW. All missing units that are from BW needs to be in SC2 for sc2 to suceed. Units in sc2 needs to have same movement as BW. sc2 needs more restraint on macro to be more 'skillful.' BW is easier to watch because ive only watched sc2 for couple of months whereas bw years. sc2 folks shouldn't say nothin about sc1 cuz they know nothin sc2 is not e-sports. korea rules.
Basically, most of the complaints are not from SC2 folks, but from SC1 elitist. SO what are people talking about sc2 ppl complaining and crap? Almost everysingle sc2 balance thread had BW comparison and shit.
And because sc2 competitve gaming exploded around the world, this comparison is one of the main reason since their beloved fan-site is now covered in goo.
People have already responded to this but here goes:
Everything you said about BW "elitists" saying "SC2 needs x and y to be more like BW" or "BW's Z is better than SC2's Z" is not true. Most people who do not like SC2 simply do not care if SC2 has X or Y. They don't think SC2 needs anything because they are not interested in the game. Think of BW and SC2 as two separate games that are not related. Most BW-only fans are not interested in changing SC2 at all because the two games can never be the same and BW fans are happy with BW.
On your first points that "BW is the best game" and "there is no better game." I'm sure a lot of people's favorite game is BW and, being their favorite, there is no better game to them personally. I don't see what is wrong with having a favorite game.
The thing that really gets my blood boiling is whenever there is a piece of news that would make BW fans sad, such as a player retiring, or MBC Game possibly becoming a music channel, etc., the SC2 fans come in and rub salt in our wounds.
From that MBC Game thread, someone said that they hope after it gets changed, we'll start seeing oGsFlash, TSL_Jaedong, etc. That was torture for me. I love watching them play BW, and I am not looking forward to the day that has to change.
On July 28 2011 14:42 tyCe wrote: However, there's a general trend of SC2-bashing and not specifically SC2 fan-bashing. I get the impression that some BW-exclusive fans are becoming defensive because of the international popularity and fame that SC2 has gotten in just one year, and not to mention the fantastic prize pools. I personally still find BW more enjoyable to watch, but I've found many comments in the BW section about SC2 to be unabashedly biased to the nth degree.
There's some edginess between SC2 and BW fans. Many SC2 fans cannot accept that BW has a higher skill ceiling and that BW pros have dominated the SC2 scene today (international, especially American BW doesn't count since the scene was practically dead and the talent pool had already moved over to WC3). Many BW fans cannot accept that BW as an esport is dying; sponsors are harder to come by, young amateurs are switching over, teams are being disbanded, even TV channels are possibly dropping BW. While I'm sure that as long as the current A and S-class players continue playing, there will be enough fans to sustain pro BW for a while, I really don't think BW will outlast this TBLS era
Flash is the last bonjwa. Stork won't ever make a come back T.T
I don't think so, I mean everyone fully understands BW will die and that isn't the problem. What annoys people are either people coming purposefully to taunt people at any sign of BW's scene having problems. That and the never ending "y u no move on to sc2???"
I don't know about you guys but when BW dies I'll probably wash my hands of RTS and eSports. Tried SC2 (the BW people were the most hyped about sc2 back in the days ) didn't enjoy it. Felt nothing like BW and I don't see a game like BW coming back for a long time so adios~
im hoping on HoTS to at least add more interesting factors into the game like what medics, lurkers, dts etc. did for bw, but im kind of worried since they cant change too much of the original
Well, they're taking out the shitty units (The Overseer being their example, because it's spells are useless and it's just a faster overlord with detection), and they're making at least some changes to terrain mechanics, so it might be changing more than people think. In the meantime, people are starting to force SC2 units to be more interesting, especially banelings. Most people are burrowing banelings and crossing their fingers, but Losira is amazing at attacking a base, and getting 2 banelings in the wave to burrow near the ramp to destroy 30 marines a little bit later. We're starting to see more Ravens in TvT, too, and SC2 is still pretty good. The new trend towards pure mech into mass air TvT is also pretty cool. And every time MC does a Phoenix contain, I switch to Protoss. Then get a PvP and switch right the fuck back to Zerg because ugh (But I hate ZvZ almost as bad! ;_;)
I'm of the opinion that, while Brood War is the better game and will continue to be for a very long time, the fact that SC2 keeps improving is inherently interesting to me. After Sage all-killed, doing a neat Phoenix/Zealot build, I went back to GSL 2 because he actually tried the same build back then. It was fucking awful. Holy christ. SC2 micro now certainly doesn't have the intricacies of BW micro, but at least it was a thing people did. No one except Foxer could do anything but 1a back then. Ugh. But also, amazing.
I watched a day9 daily about MC's phoenix contain build and how it gets "vision control". Near the end, he goes back to replays from MLG Columbus, like a month and a half previously. MC does about the same thing, but he rushes out the initial Void Ray a little earlier to try and block the zerg from taking his third, and it's so much weaker. That was amazing. That blew my mind. And that idea, that the game is a sloppy mess slowly being mapped out, is the reason I like SC2. It's also the reason a lot of BW fans don't like SC2: They want to see a really polished game right now, and there happens to be BW. Perfectly viable.
It's also why I don't think SC2 and BW have to be at odds. Because while they're similar, the appeals are different. SC2 is about watching a child learn to draw. BW is like the Mona Lisa. And yes, eventually SC2 will get figured out, but that'll be by exploring all the ways it's not BW. And then we'll have BW as the Mona Lisa and SC2 as Starry Night. And then we can begrudgingly come together and make fun of Warcraft 3.
On July 28 2011 15:14 Lokian wrote: Okay, after reading several posts, I think the 'resentment' (not hostility) is because of BW elitism. Derr right? lol
BW elitism.
BW is the best game. No other game is better than BW. Everything about BW is interesting. SC2 needs to have the same units as BW. All missing units that are from BW needs to be in SC2 for sc2 to suceed. Units in sc2 needs to have same movement as BW. sc2 needs more restraint on macro to be more 'skillful.' BW is easier to watch because ive only watched sc2 for couple of months whereas bw years. sc2 folks shouldn't say nothin about sc1 cuz they know nothin sc2 is not e-sports. korea rules.
Basically, most of the complaints are not from SC2 folks, but from SC1 elitist. SO what are people talking about sc2 ppl complaining and crap? Almost everysingle sc2 balance thread had BW comparison and shit.
And because sc2 competitve gaming exploded around the world, this comparison is one of the main reason since their beloved fan-site is now covered in goo.
posts like this are exactly the reason for "hostility"
On July 28 2011 15:14 Lokian wrote: Okay, after reading several posts, I think the 'resentment' (not hostility) is because of BW elitism. Derr right? lol
BW elitism.
BW is the best game. No other game is better than BW. Everything about BW is interesting. SC2 needs to have the same units as BW. All missing units that are from BW needs to be in SC2 for sc2 to suceed. Units in sc2 needs to have same movement as BW. sc2 needs more restraint on macro to be more 'skillful.' BW is easier to watch because ive only watched sc2 for couple of months whereas bw years. sc2 folks shouldn't say nothin about sc1 cuz they know nothin sc2 is not e-sports. korea rules.
Basically, most of the complaints are not from SC2 folks, but from SC1 elitist. SO what are people talking about sc2 ppl complaining and crap? Almost everysingle sc2 balance thread had BW comparison and shit.
And because sc2 competitve gaming exploded around the world, this comparison is one of the main reason since their beloved fan-site is now covered in goo.
Read this post and read the title of the thread. Everything makes sense now!
EPT
) didn't enjoy it. Felt nothing like BW and I don't see a game like BW coming back for a long time so adios~
