Let me get this straight I am fairly new to the proscene pre flash era around 2008 and I have been around playing starcraft 1 and bw in 1998 hands on and even gone on to some few lans with friends than due to the hype back than fps games were mostly the crowd favourites and cs 1.6 was the dominant back than on non korean grounds the eu,america and across the globe sc bw did not captured the hearts of many back than not as much as how korea did .
I am just raising the possibility of broodwar actually revamp to probably a hd graphics as par as broodwar but really good crispy graphics which would be as good as the old bw . As most of the arguments from youngs kids these day that is bw is too ugly to even be appealing to them hence the need for a probably a shift of the entirety of all bw mechanics and micro on to a game engine that is capable of not only delivering the old good stuff that we know from bw and the combination of graphics that will make sponsors nod gladly with approval .
Just look at the cs pro mod scene for example I was unfortunately back than more a fps gamer and even had puppy dreams such as being cs source progamer back than when they had the CGS(Championship Gaming Series ) .It was the bomb teams such as 3d and complexity were of the talk of the day although unfortunately the game company failed in delivering or meeting its requirement and had itself wrap up but enough of cs source background . Now on the proposition of cs pro mod the counter strike scene was at first had a really good community from having tons of tournaments back than and was mushrooming more than my fingers can count although it was probably through time and the coming of new games that could possibly said to have compete with once solid counter strike interest such as Call of duty but nonetheless I got interested into the scene of pro gaming due to CGS and that was through cs source .
Back than when valve released cs source a whole lot of progamers from 1.6 all had the impression that the game was just too noob friendly , bigger hitboxes means getting headshot much easier , moving while shooting does not affect your shooting and the list can go on hence the cry of heresy from all 1.6 players and HATE from the old scene and for a cs source gamer who had experience of both world I could not have understand their cries I could have frag as easily as I could in source and 1.6 and still play well it's just that when graphics are in comparison I was more on the cs source side as it did appeal to me as I got familiar with the game . Unfortunately cs source died when all the CGS hype crash down and due to the 1.6 players not supporting the new game it just came crashing down and as you know Cs source is probably called an inferior game .
Why am I talking about cs source and 1.6 in a broodwar forum ? It's because not only has cs source ,cs 1.6 and starcraft Bw and Starcraft 2 share the same problem as what only was stopping probably new interest is probably the stupid argument that it had old graphics cs 1.6 and Bw had really old graphics (its okay to me ^^) but that view is probably a minority to some of us who had grown with the game hence the need for a whole new redevelopment of bw and port it into a engine that can actually bring both fans of the new generation (graphics omg lols important ) and bw ( mechanics.micro oriented ) fuse into one component .
Which is currently happening in the cs pro mod scene not only it blended what people thought was the impossible in a cs source game that is Wall BANGING , Smaller models ,cs 1.6 accurate shooting and the amazing graphics of valve cs source into one . I have seen its development from the community who actually built up and incorporated all the old features from 1.6 into source making it probably a game that can actually fused the two scene together as valve like some Lizzard with the B in front would actually care about what makes a game actually work and tick .
With that in mind I am just wondering whether is there is a possibility out there will there be anyone who is working on some project like the cs pro mod except this is for BW ? You can criticize my opinions and thoughts about it or anything as I am just throwing these out these comparison between the two scene that actually plague both of the scene that is the lack of a game that can actually covers both of two worlds one with having the old good competitive game play that we all are craving in current new games and with good graphics that is up today standard .
I am probably going to be shot down with people coming from the SC 2 side saying probably I should have move on with times and with comments such as get a new pc but we all do know that Sc2 isn't the sequel that we all have waited for 10 years that it isn't the game that actually had captured our hearts and soul when we first laid down our eyes on Starcraft .But nonetheless it is clearly true that we deep down in our self every time we lay our self on our sc2 we will be wondering what if Sc2 had units like Bw how would it have work out ? Would we actually be joining the sc2 community now with such old favourites and old mechanics that actually made it in to the game and not with the all the old slow mo blob vs blob units .
I am leaving this to the mods ... I hope they actually will allow this kind of discussion to be actually be discussed because after all bw isn't really growing in my opinion Dwindling numbers in iccup and most of what is left is the community its probably us hard core bw players and the koreans .
I believe there is a Starcraft mod which runs on the Warcraft III engine, you might want to check that out(Although I am not certain that it is popular......AT ALL), also fish and Brainclan are from what I heard the shit these days.
so basically what your saying if for another bw with pristine graphics. its been debated to death tbh. With people saying both the pros and cons in threads. I think this thread will be closed for the fact its been talked about before. and it looks like it will not ever happen.
But basically people say better graphics would be nice. but it should not matter. We love bw the way it is, why should we change it just to appease to casual players who care too much for graphics.
If you like BW, than just keep playing BW (like me ^^). I really don't see where is the problem as long as we have Korean progame scene to watch and as long as we have someone to play this beautiful game with.
On April 26 2011 17:59 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you like BW, than just keep playing BW (like me ^^). I really don't see where is the problem as long as we have Korean progame scene to watch and as long as we have someone to play this beautiful game with.
We don't need to compromise...
exactly. Love bw for itself.
its like expecting a person you love to change what they look like. so you have something better looking to wake up to in the morning. It won't happen. and you're likely to get smacked for it.
I know of a bw mod for sc2. but its complete garbage. I know its going to be brought up in this thread. but its a complete joke of a mod. like of bw with sc2 like balance. its garbage. Lets just say its worse than playing auctual sc2.
There is actually a HD mode for BW. It's not good to play the game, but it's awesome to watch replays.
I love BW, the games on the Korean scene are still incredibly entertaining, and even if the B.net server or Iccup server are not as crowded as they use to be, as long as I have people to play with, it's great !
Oh, by the way I played a practice game yesterday, PvZ @ FS where I opened a 1gate scout, and then realized it was against someone from op teamliquid, was a really fun game, thanks to whoever who'll recognize himself <3
SC2 mod that has all of the BW units as well as some of the old mechanics (limited building/unit selection, no automine, etc). However, as masterbreti said, it's nowhere near the real BW. It's still using the SC2 engine so a lot of the subtleties just aren't there.
Now ask yourself, could you really take BW seriously as an e-sport if we had to upgrade the graphics every few years to appease the masses?
If someone is wary of Brood War solely because he finds its graphics unsatisfactory, I probably wouldn't enjoy associating with him in the first place.
I last played the SC2BW mod about a month ago and the most glaring difference was the mineral income scaling with high mineral line saturation. With consistent worker production you could simply reach a mineral intake vastly outstripping what would happen in the BW engine. I remember from the thread that the map designer was working on mitigating this, but I don't know if he's been successful or not.
What makes BW special is because of its UI and unit behaviour as well. Its not BW without it, and any other engine would have a hard time replicating that honestly.
On April 26 2011 18:58 DoX.) wrote: What makes BW special is because of its UI and unit behaviour as well. Its not BW without it, and any other engine would have a hard time replicating that honestly.
QFT
My biggest problem with SC2 is to see marines behaving like a toy army grouping together and being perfectly coordinate.
BW's best quality is its simplicity and all the unplanned / unpredictable stuff which turned out to be incredibly important (hello there muta stacking / irregular wall-ins / dragoon ai etc...)
On April 26 2011 17:57 Kipsate wrote: I believe there is a Starcraft mod which runs on the Warcraft III engine, you might want to check that out(Although I am not certain that it is popular......AT ALL), also fish and Brainclan are from what I heard the shit these days.
They had a Terran demo released, but there hasn't been an update in years. The mod is believed to be dead, which is a shame since it really tried to completely replicate BW on the WC3 engine with exact replicas of all the BW buildings and sprites and textures.
Also, the leaked Blizzard product release timeline had a mysterious project called "SC2 Phoenix." Though we only know about the project's name, a few people speculate that perhaps it might be an HD remake or remaster. However, it's just rumors at this point.
Also, I think it would be quite difficult to remake BW without changing some subtle, key features. Trying to replicate the micro tricks and subtleties in a new engine would be in vain since no matter how much work is done, it's extremely difficult to artificially capture the exact "feel" of stacking, moving shot, and patrol micro. Fixing pathing AI will also remove some key dynamics in the game, such as balancing the power of Reavers with crappy Scarab AI.
All the aspects of BW, from the subtle engine flaws to the brilliant game design, contribute to the experience that we all know and love. It's hard to tweak the game and fix these flaws without ruining some part of that experience.
On April 26 2011 18:53 icystorage wrote: o.o BW has pretty awesome graphics imo
Much better than SC2 imho. They are simpler, more sober, clearer and nicer.
BW is a perfect game. Nothing is to be changed. The 3D adds nothing except more dollars for Blizzard because masses love it.
Well.... not to be a StarCraft II fanboy, but the StarCraft II graphics are definitely prettier. However, as an observer sport. BW takes the cake. It is so much easier to see everything. I will take watching BW over StarCraft II any day. That being said, StarCraft II is not a bad game. It just needs the kinks worked out.
On April 26 2011 18:53 icystorage wrote: o.o BW has pretty awesome graphics imo
Much better than SC2 imho. They are simpler, more sober, clearer and nicer.
BW is a perfect game. Nothing is to be changed. The 3D adds nothing except more dollars for Blizzard because masses love it.
What bothers me with SC2 is that everything is dark blueish / dark grayish for almost all units of all races, and except the jungle tileset, most maps are the same color as the units. When you add big lighting and spell effects on top of that you really can't see anything.
I forced myself to watch the TSL3 because well it's TSL, and had to give up after a few games because of this.
What I would LOVE to see are like minor expansion packs for BW released maybe once a in 5 years or so to keep it fresh -- made not by Dustin Browder and co. but rather the original makers.
Buffing of scouts/ghosts/queens, HD resolution, and some minor UI tweaks come to mind. Maybe a few new units.
On April 26 2011 18:53 icystorage wrote: o.o BW has pretty awesome graphics imo
Much better than SC2 imho. They are simpler, more sober, clearer and nicer.
BW is a perfect game. Nothing is to be changed. The 3D adds nothing except more dollars for Blizzard because masses love it.
There's plenty you can change about BW to make it better. Practically every observer feature in SC2 would be welcomed in BW, no?
There's a lot you don't want to change, but to say it is perfect is silly. I can see in the future a BW2.0 being made, should pro level BW continue to be popular. Not any time soon, but if BW just doesn't die, then it's going to need an update eventually.
I love BW's graphics, the artistic and graphic design of BW is one of the best and is timeless. SC2 will get seriously dated within years, but BW will remain forever beautiful because of 2D graphics are timeless :D
Agreed. Looking at streams (which is how almost all spectators watch e sports), BW graphics look clean, bright, yet intricate -- classic. I didn't realize this until I compared it to SC2 which looks absolutely murky and unappealing.
On April 26 2011 18:53 icystorage wrote: o.o BW has pretty awesome graphics imo
Much better than SC2 imho. They are simpler, more sober, clearer and nicer.
BW is a perfect game. Nothing is to be changed. The 3D adds nothing except more dollars for Blizzard because masses love it.
There's plenty you can change about BW to make it better. Practically every observer feature in SC2 would be welcomed in BW, no?
There's a lot you don't want to change, but to say it is perfect is silly. I can see in the future a BW2.0 being made, should pro level BW continue to be popular. Not any time soon, but if BW just doesn't die, then it's going to need an update eventually.
Whats also amazing is that every single one of the obs features in sc2, can be done in BW.another amazing feature of bw. its so moddable. people can edit stuff to make features not in bw. the obs features in sc2 have been done in bw. I know mbc game i think has that overlay that has the feature. idk why we don't use a similar program then what they use.
just saying bw is so customizable, sc2 is not. its the client and the engine that allows that.
On April 26 2011 18:53 icystorage wrote: o.o BW has pretty awesome graphics imo
Much better than SC2 imho. They are simpler, more sober, clearer and nicer.
BW is a perfect game. Nothing is to be changed. The 3D adds nothing except more dollars for Blizzard because masses love it.
There's plenty you can change about BW to make it better. Practically every observer feature in SC2 would be welcomed in BW, no?
There's a lot you don't want to change, but to say it is perfect is silly. I can see in the future a BW2.0 being made, should pro level BW continue to be popular. Not any time soon, but if BW just doesn't die, then it's going to need an update eventually.
Whats also amazing is that every single one of the obs features in sc2, can be done in BW.another amazing feature of bw. its so moddable. people can edit stuff to make features not in bw. the obs features in sc2 have been done in bw. I know mbc game i think has that overlay that has the feature. idk why we don't use a similar program then what they use.
just saying bw is so customizable, sc2 is not. its the client and the engine that allows that.
Indeed, BW did have quite a few third-party programs that allowed for better observer feature.
However, SC2 also had some modded observer mode maps that had a lot of additional observer features that weren't supported by the official observer mode. Custom maps in SC2 do allow for much more customization than BW UMS maps, especially in regards to UI which is heavily moddable via Galaxy editor while BW's UI needed more extensive modifications to the client itself.
The Galaxy Editor in SC2 offers worlds more customization to SC2 via custom maps compared to what could be done to BW.
There is nothing stopping fans from creating new graphical front ends for starcraft that could make it more accessible for new players. Except the fact that Starcraft is closed source. Seriously, being closed source is the ONLY THING stopping us from having a modern looking starcraft front end. Look at Quake 1. It is a perfect example of how much graphical progress can be made while maintaining backward compatibility to the original game and its genre defining gameplay that is yet to be surpassed.
On April 26 2011 19:12 phosphorylation wrote: What I would LOVE to see are like minor expansion packs for BW released maybe once a in 5 years or so to keep it fresh -- made not by Dustin Browder and co. but rather the original makers.
Buffing of scouts/ghosts/queens, HD resolution, and some minor UI tweaks come to mind. Maybe a few new units.
Of course, this will never happen.
buffing weak units so they are more effective and usable is something that wouldve been infinitely more appealing to me than a new game
reading this thread made me very very sad. i started working on SC2BW about a month after SC2 was released and i have worked on it almost every day since then.
i have put an obscene amount of time into it to make it as perfect and as close to BW as i possibly can.
frankly at this time im reaching a wall and i need help people seem unwilling to lend (in terms of fairly advanced scripting and AI)
I know of a bw mod for sc2. but its complete garbage. I know its going to be brought up in this thread. but its a complete joke of a mod. like of bw with sc2 like balance. its garbage. Lets just say its worse than playing auctual sc2.
are you sure you played mine?
I last played the SC2BW mod about a month ago and the most glaring difference was the mineral income scaling with high mineral line saturation. With consistent worker production you could simply reach a mineral intake vastly outstripping what would happen in the BW engine. I remember from the thread that the map designer was working on mitigating this, but I don't know if he's been successful or not.
i fixed that. but more than that. TELL ME. the MAIN thing holding me back is feedback. i hate reading these threads and seeing people complain about things that are wrong or aren't fixed yet when they never tell me.
probably the best example i can give as to the lengths i've gone to + Show Spoiler +
it's not about replacing BW either. never is or was my intention. i simply had high hopes for sc2 and it let me down. but i do enjoy it's sparkles.
Almost every attempt to remake a game with more advanced graphics has ended up looking far worse. There are a few exceptions (Nintendo has usually done a good job, starting with Super Mario All-Stars).
SC2 has poor graphics. It lacks the distinguishable units, crisp environments and idiosyncratic animations of the original game, and there's far too much use of lighting effects that only add noise (like the christmas tree factory disaster mineral lines). SC2:BW would be a step down. That's not to say I don't appreciate the effort, but I wouldn't play it over the original.
On April 26 2011 20:41 maybenexttime wrote: Do your Mutas stop when they attack while unmicroed and have to slowly accelerate again or did you just make their acceleration nearly instant?
they slowly accelerate.
Almost every attempt to remake a game with more advanced graphics has ended up looking far worse. There are a few exceptions (Nintendo has usually done a good job, starting with Super Mario All-Stars).
honestly i dont feel as if it's ever been done correctly. that shouldn't stop us from trying.
So you essentially recreated the Muta micro against Terran. That's impressive. I wish blizzard weren't that fucking stubborn. Mutas in sc2 are so clunky...
How does micro work against Scourges and other Mutas/ranged air units? Do you need any special technique to use it propely? Have you recreated any other micro techniques like patrol micro or hold micro?
On April 26 2011 20:47 maybenexttime wrote: So you essentially recreated the Muta micro against Terran. That's impressive. I wish blizzard weren't that fucking stubborn. Mutas in sc2 are so clunky...
How does micro work against Scourges and other Mutas/ranged air units? Do you need any special technique to use it propely? Have you recreated any other micro techniques like patrol micro or hold micro?
Please, get hired by blizzard. ;/
done my best to replicate all of it. most of it's almost impossible to do with b.net lag however.
Which was another idiotic decision on blizzard's part. I mean, did they really think this through? I haven't met a single pirate that would buy the game simply because he was unable to get an illegal copy. By fighting piracy with the lack of LAN they're not really gaining new potential customers - they're really pissing off their paying custmers, though...
not on topic but blizzard want control of the scene. they want to be in the loop. for whatever reason. most likely money but you can't just assume that aslong as everyone plays on battle.net they control everything.
requires peer to peer networking essentially all the code that is required to connect to starcraft 2 clients together would have to be included in the client. which would allow it to be reverse engineered and used for other purposes.
with battle.net acting as the server for starcraft 2 games no-one will ever be able to create this functionality without climbing a wall of death filled with spikes, tar pits and super robotic guards armed with lasers. a disgruntled employee would probably have to leak the battle.net server software for it to happen. this is why they will retain control for a long time.
There is literally no point to anything like this. The only thing i would like to prehaps see is like someone mentioned, VERY minor re-balancing of a few weaker units. For Queens, Spawn Broodling maybe to 125 energy. Things like that.
Actually, it would be cool for Blizzard to release a color fix for Windows Vista and Windows 7, along with official, more robust observer features. Perhaps it might even be possible to tweak the sprites and tweak the resolution. It also might be nice if Battle.net was updated with some more features, better anti-hack security, and more reliable networking.
However, messing with any aspect of BW is like straddling a tightrope, so any changes would need to have negligible effects on the gameplay itself.
it's not about replacing BW either. never is or was my intention. i simply had high hopes for sc2 and it let me down. but i do enjoy it's sparkles.
I like this sentence. A Lot. Well, by now you should be used to people talking crap about a mod they probably played once/never. Goodluck for your project dude. I for one will be rooting for ur work : )
On April 26 2011 21:37 eviltomahawk wrote: Actually, it would be cool for Blizzard to release a color fix for Windows Vista and Windows 7, along with official, more robust observer features. Perhaps it might even be possible to tweak the sprites and tweak the resolution. It also might be nice if Battle.net was updated with some more features, better anti-hack security, and more reliable networking.
However, messing with any aspect of BW is like straddling a tightrope, so any changes would need to have negligible effects on the gameplay itself.
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
The problem is, Blizzard knows that BW is the biggest competitor of SC2 at the moment.
Getting a graphics upgrade, Vista/7 fixes, more observer features, integrated anti-hack, automated match-making with custom ladders (in terms of point system and maps) would be a dream come true. It could really revitalize the foreign BW scene because, as it is, the dated (but still pretty) graphics and the lack of proper match-making that makes playing BW intimidating for inexperienced players are the two main reasons why BW cannot attract more players these days (and for those saying that we shouldn't care for people who only care about graphics - more (vastly) players -> bigger non-Korean audience -> more sponsors -> more tournaments -> more incentive for skilled foreigners to come back).
On April 26 2011 21:37 eviltomahawk wrote: Actually, it would be cool for Blizzard to release a color fix for Windows Vista and Windows 7, along with official, more robust observer features. Perhaps it might even be possible to tweak the sprites and tweak the resolution. It also might be nice if Battle.net was updated with some more features, better anti-hack security, and more reliable networking.
However, messing with any aspect of BW is like straddling a tightrope, so any changes would need to have negligible effects on the gameplay itself.
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
The problem is, Blizzard knows that BW is the biggest competitor of SC2 at the moment.
Getting a graphics upgrade, Vista/7 fixes, more observer features, integrated anti-hack, automated match-making with custom ladders (in terms of point system and maps) would be a dream come true. It could really revitalize the foreign BW scene because, as it is, the dated (but still pretty) graphics and the lack of proper match-making that makes playing BW intimidating for inexperienced players are the two main reasons why BW cannot attract more players these days (and for those saying that we shouldn't care for people who only care about graphics - more (vastly) players -> bigger non-Korean audience -> more sponsors -> more tournaments -> more incentive for skilled foreigners to come back).
yeah maybe we should Email Blizzard and ask them for tools to make all this stuff possible by ourselves and release the patch in their name.
but,If I ever think about doing this myself i keep thinking of how to fix scouts...:p
I would love for a new version with new graphics but retaining everything bw has, including the bugginess, unit movement and the general feel of the game. It would give the game a breadth of fresh air but nothing would change in terms of gameplay. I can't see how it would hurt the game, and a new mod would definitely attract more people to the scene.
Imagine BW with SC2 graphics and everything else remaining the same, people would watch BW for sure. I can only dream though :p
In my younger days, I used to work as a 2D-artist for independent game developer groups. None of the projects made it to beta, but it was still an interesting experience... ah, I digress. One of the last things I did related to gamedev was applying for a position at some French team that was working on a BW total conversion into an FPS. Sadly, the project got shut down by Blizzard. Copyright can be so detrimental to the scene... My point? Ah! Yes, I think BW is fine as it is, but I'd like to see a BW FPS. Fanmade, not Blizzard-made.
Regarding graphics: What's with all the hipster stuff?
There's nothing wrong with changing something to "appeal to the masses" if it doesn't change anything for the hardcore crowd. If your argument is simply that BW graphics are "better," just roll with that. Don't bust out the I DON'T LIKE IT BC IT WOULD BE POPULAR nonsense.
On April 27 2011 01:54 .Aar wrote: Regarding graphics: What's with all the hipster shit?
There's nothing wrong with changing something to "appeal to the masses" if it doesn't change anything for the hardcore crowd. If your argument is simply that BW graphics are "better," just roll with that. Don't bust out the I DON'T LIKE IT BC IT WOULD BE POPULAR nonsense.
I don't think anyone said that here at all. The point people were making is that we should not consider graphics to appeal to the masses. The graphics are fine as is.
Well Capcom made a Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD remix which is quite good and appreciated. No reason a SC2BW HD remix can't be the same. Maybe for the 20th anniversary?
not to burst your bubble but there is already a really well done Brood War SC2 mod made by Maverck. I am sure someone already told you but you should go check it out. it really is amazing!
On April 27 2011 02:26 Golgotha wrote: not to burst your bubble but there is already a really well done Brood War SC2 mod made by Maverck. I am sure someone already told you but you should go check it out. it really is amazing!
Like metioned in previous posts. the mod is garbage. You cannot auctally port bw to sc2. Its common sense. No matter how much maverk or whatever his name is may try. It won't work. sc2bw is just another attempt by sc2 fanboys to make people want to switch.
bw is bw for a reason. We houldn't try to change it, cause we will just have this debate over and over again.
We have a great proscene in korea that we love. we have a mostly wonderful community. I don't know why we are trying to point out what bw does not have.
Why don't we focus on working with what we have and making a better community. Rather then ofcusing on the graphics
Masterbell, I'm all for the SC2 hate and all but that guy worked incredibly hard on that project. Show some respect man.
He obviously cared enough to get hand rendered models and it's a pretty damn good adaptation. Is it BW? Of course not, but even BW diehards can get a great blast of fun out of it, me being one myself.
I do agree with the idea of making a better, more active community however. Especially considering how slow it seems around here ever since SC2 came out.
That being said, PL has been innnnnncredible since the whole SCII issue even came to glance. I've seen some of the best games of my life this year.
Maybe there needs to be a comprehensive thread with channels, meet up online times, facebook groups, all that good jazz. We've lost almost all our old English commentators right? Let's make a thread about how to get started there. Let's get more streamers. Let's get more liquipedia editors. Discuss, without the usual downfall into one vs the other, the likes and dislikes from users all over the world as far as games, commentary, etc so we can get more people who want to start involved in doing so.
Also, there's nothing wrong with a graphics update unless it changes gameplay.
On April 27 2011 02:26 Golgotha wrote: not to burst your bubble but there is already a really well done Brood War SC2 mod made by Maverck. I am sure someone already told you but you should go check it out. it really is amazing!
Like metioned in previous posts. the mod is garbage. You cannot auctally port bw to sc2. Its common sense. No matter how much maverk or whatever his name is may try. It won't work. sc2bw is just another attempt by sc2 fanboys to make people want to switch.
bw is bw for a reason. We houldn't try to change it, cause we will just have this debate over and over again.
We have a great proscene in korea that we love. we have a mostly wonderful community. I don't know why we are trying to point out what bw does not have.
Why don't we focus on working with what we have and making a better community. Rather then ofcusing on the graphics
Hmmm... that seems to be quite a harsh statement for someone who has contributed so much of his time to such a major project. It's not perfect, but it's the best BW mod that SC2 currently has, and there is an impressive amount of time and effort spent coding and modeling the entire thing. Plus, I think that it probably would be more constructive to point out the flaws in the mod instead of outright dismissing the entire thing as garbage. Unlike Blizzard, Maverick is open to suggestions.
Furthermore, I don't think the mod is a conspiracy by SC2 fanboys to cause people to switch. I think it's more of an impassioned effort to replicate a more beloved game in a new engine to make up for the fact that SC2 lacks certain elements from BW. It's a completely innocent endeavor, and it was only an inevitable amount of time before someone tried modding BW into SC2 considering that the majority of art assets are already available in SC2. Also, it's definitely not unprecedented considering how people tried modding BW into C&C Generals and Warcraft 3, though in vain. Heck, someone even tried modding SC2 sprites into BW to create an SC2 mod in BW.
IMO, it's downright mean to be dismissing the project with such harsh words. Sure, it will never be a perfect replica of BW. However, it's the closest we've got to an exact replica currently available, except for the incomplete Project Revolution mod for WC3.
On April 27 2011 02:26 Golgotha wrote: not to burst your bubble but there is already a really well done Brood War SC2 mod made by Maverck. I am sure someone already told you but you should go check it out. it really is amazing!
Like metioned in previous posts. the mod is garbage. You cannot auctally port bw to sc2. Its common sense. No matter how much maverk or whatever his name is may try. It won't work. sc2bw is just another attempt by sc2 fanboys to make people want to switch.
bw is bw for a reason. We houldn't try to change it, cause we will just have this debate over and over again.
We have a great proscene in korea that we love. we have a mostly wonderful community. I don't know why we are trying to point out what bw does not have.
Why don't we focus on working with what we have and making a better community. Rather then ofcusing on the graphics
That is some hardcore religious fanaticism. What is necessary in order to proceed is to accept the premises of western popularisation. They dont exist. The target audience potential to enjoy the game already accepts the graphics. Look at classics - SNES games, PS1 games. Suffer due to low graphics? No, because it is not that premise that allowed them to become deep, but a misunderstood market perception.
Let me elaborate.
The gaming market has undergone the same problem of mass production for masses that can be seen elsewhere. That means that attributes preferable by elite minorities,which accompany the creation of the genre of games in the first place due to ingeniousness of the innovators, will be substituted with those appealing to the masses, as the profit motive suggests. This has two implications
1.Games(or other media) of a genre's youth displays higher level of ingenuity.
and secondly, which is critical for the point of this thread
2. The byproducts of maturing of genre(polished appearance, better graphics) are not the reason for the increased popularity. Rather, it is the simplified gameplay.
What can be concluded from this is the contradictory nature of uniting the goals of mass appeal and of elitist definitions.
On April 27 2011 02:26 Golgotha wrote: not to burst your bubble but there is already a really well done Brood War SC2 mod made by Maverck. I am sure someone already told you but you should go check it out. it really is amazing!
Like metioned in previous posts. the mod is garbage. You cannot auctally port bw to sc2. Its common sense. No matter how much maverk or whatever his name is may try. It won't work. sc2bw is just another attempt by sc2 fanboys to make people want to switch.
bw is bw for a reason. We houldn't try to change it, cause we will just have this debate over and over again.
We have a great proscene in korea that we love. we have a mostly wonderful community. I don't know why we are trying to point out what bw does not have.
Why don't we focus on working with what we have and making a better community. Rather then ofcusing on the graphics
well i understand your sentiment. of course nothing can be exactly like BW! but the mod is not garbage...a lot of thought and time went into it. and he is not trying to make people switch...he was just disappointed in SC2 like a lot of us and wanted to play Brood War using the SC2 engine.
On April 26 2011 17:58 masterbreti wrote: But basically people say better graphics would be nice. but it should not matter. We love bw the way it is, why should we change it just to appease to casual players who care too much for graphics.
Because even Flash started off as a casual player.
On April 27 2011 02:26 Golgotha wrote: not to burst your bubble but there is already a really well done Brood War SC2 mod made by Maverck. I am sure someone already told you but you should go check it out. it really is amazing!
Like metioned in previous posts. the mod is garbage. You cannot auctally port bw to sc2. Its common sense. No matter how much maverk or whatever his name is may try. It won't work. sc2bw is just another attempt by sc2 fanboys to make people want to switch.
bw is bw for a reason. We houldn't try to change it, cause we will just have this debate over and over again.
We have a great proscene in korea that we love. we have a mostly wonderful community. I don't know why we are trying to point out what bw does not have.
Why don't we focus on working with what we have and making a better community. Rather then ofcusing on the graphics
well i understand your sentiment. of course nothing can be exactly like BW! but the mod is not garbage...a lot of thought and time went into it. and he is not trying to make people switch...he was just disappointed in SC2 like a lot of us and wanted to play Brood War using the SC2 engine.
I think that he is indeed too harsh on the guy who was just trying to do something for the community, but it is true that the sc2 engine is just way too different from the bw game engine...you can never replicate exactly the way bw feels. The unit pathing is just different and something that cannot be changed, and it's 3D graphics too just change the way everything works. No more floating barracks to hide turret/whatever.
Why play a BW mod(which kind of "feels" like bw but is not), when you can just play BW?
HoN players get balance changes a couple of time each month. SC2 gets them maybe once a month. Frustrating as hell if you're a viewer but don't follow the change logs. BW is awesome in that it's basically the same game I played and loved back in 2002-2003. Go balance some other game - we're good here.
Wow why the hate for an BW mod for SC2? Has the BW community gotten so insular that they can't even appreciate this? If you're satisfied with how perfect BW is, then why care at all for how SC2 turned out?
The Korean scene for BW is still amazingly strong, and I don't see that dying for a long time. If you're a BW fan just because of the likes of Flash and JD and <insert your favorite player>, I don't get what you have to worry about (at least for the next few years).
On the other hand, if you were/are a hardcore ICCUP player, then I can see where you're coming from, since so many talented foreign BW players have left for SC2 waters, and the foreign scene is still dying (despite the best efforts of Sayle et al).
As much as I like BW, for it not working on Windows 7 is a big deal for me. Since it just freezes i can't play as much BW as i want to. And I need to play some BW when SC2 gets boring for me, it does quite often.
The color palette is horrible in SC2... but the color palette on BW is fantastic... very easy to differentiate which unit is owned by which player in big battles everything feels dark in SC2 instead of using more obvious colors
my bw works without any errors(expect i cant play on brainclan server) i just downloaded the official bw version from battle.net, insert your key there and download it, mb it works for u
Maverck just wanted to let you know I appreciate the work you did on the mod a ton! I'm not an SC2 player, and I only played SC2 during the beta, but the fact that someone like you went through the effort of working on something like that is quite noteworthy and if it brings even a few people playing SC2 to give regular BW a chance, it'll be a huge success in my eyes.
As far as the issues raised are concerned, I think Graphics are the least important issue for most people. The thing that BW could use the most are work on battle.net itself, while some few may hate match-making, for the most part it is a significantly better way to play Ladder games. Likewise an anti-hack overhaul (not that I don't <3 Iccup as is) for general battle.net would be great. However none of these changes are going to happen unless there are some incredible community programmers who could do this modifying only the original battle.net server structure(like iCCup has) to make this work, as Blizzard will no longer support BW.
On April 26 2011 21:10 infinity2k9 wrote: There is literally no point to anything like this. The only thing i would like to prehaps see is like someone mentioned, VERY minor re-balancing of a few weaker units. For Queens, Spawn Broodling maybe to 125 energy. Things like that.
Bro you need to keep up with the scene. Spawn broodling has been used in ZvT mech alot these days.
On April 26 2011 21:10 infinity2k9 wrote: There is literally no point to anything like this. The only thing i would like to prehaps see is like someone mentioned, VERY minor re-balancing of a few weaker units. For Queens, Spawn Broodling maybe to 125 energy. Things like that.
Bro you need to keep up with the scene. Spawn broodling has been used in ZvT mech alot these days.
And Spawn Broodling for 125 energy would be ridiculously imbalanced looool
On April 27 2011 06:24 Gao Xi wrote: As much as I like BW, for it not working on Windows 7 is a big deal for me. Since it just freezes i can't play as much BW as i want to. And I need to play some BW when SC2 gets boring for me, it does quite often.
I have a Windows 7 PC and it doesn't crash in there it only locks up when I alt tab alot.
On April 27 2011 05:41 lbmaian wrote: Wow why the hate for an BW mod for SC2? Has the BW community gotten so insular that they can't even appreciate this? If you're satisfied with how perfect BW is, then why care at all for how SC2 turned out?
The Korean scene for BW is still amazingly strong, and I don't see that dying for a long time. If you're a BW fan just because of the likes of Flash and JD and <insert your favorite player>, I don't get what you have to worry about (at least for the next few years).
On the other hand, if you were/are a hardcore ICCUP player, then I can see where you're coming from, since so many talented foreign BW players have left for SC2 waters, and the foreign scene is still dying (despite the best efforts of Sayle et al).
Can you stop generalizing one idiot for the rest of the BW community?
That's like us generalizing the SC2 strat forum for every SC2 player out there.
EPT
