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*pours one out*
I can understand the frustration of some of the BW players attacking SC2 here. It's a natural thing to feel when "your game" gets replaced.
BW, you had an amazing run. It had amazing longevity like few other games - its place in the gaming hall of fame is assured.
With that said, bring on SCII at the World Cyber Games! We should be seeing some amazing action there. The SC2 tournament probably won't be able to achieve the same level of significance it had for BW's foreign scene since there are so many other great international tournaments out there for SC2 already, but here's hoping they can mould it into a high profile SC2 tournament anyway. :D
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All I'm seeing from the soft/hard defenders of SC2 is the same, tiring points that BW "elitists" addressed about 1000 times over during the peak of BW vs SC2 flame wars.
At this point I'm pretty convinced most of the people spewing similar points were too lazy to read through the pages of debate on virtually any Blizzard vs. Kespa thread.
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On March 08 2011 16:05 KevinIX wrote:
You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
The majority doesn't justify that everyone enjoys sc2 well if the majority includes thousands of 13 years old kids and 18 year old age as a group which actually signifies that sc2 is a great game than it's sad you have to realize that the game has change so much at the sight of sc2 graphics when i play the game I felt everything was wrong with the game from the spawning of the scv and to the sound of scv greeting felt so wrong . It is a different game at it's core it's no longer the bw unit we all use to know . Sc2 is on a different engine and it can never be the same how could you say it's the same game baffles me . Sc1 was not succeded by bw it merely expands the game play of SC BW by adding a few units on the other hand sc2 ??? It's a whole freaking new ball game thus leading to people not accepting it .Do you see sc2 expanding the universe of sc bw ? Nope it doesn't at all it merely pick and choses which units are not comfortable in their theory crafting and dispose them away . Everytime i look at the graphics i just want to puke at the sight of it sorry for my own personal biasness as BW to me hold's a very special place thus the emergence of sc2 really shook my special place by removing my only opportunity to see a LIVE BW game in reality has been taken away and due to selfishness of Blizzard to garnered all the money it can find by exploiting the old broadcasting that has support them and promote the game for years .
Sc2 is not a successor it as an rebel that outcast the old standards and structure that we all are familiar .
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Well, define "bad". I'm probably in the top 3~% of active pop (a little shy of masters), and I tell it like it is. But if even you wish to talk solely about professional level play, I'm not entirely convinced that taking a 3rd-4th is better than simply pushing on 2 base. Highly map dependent, of course, and okay, you get the odd macro game (macro meaning 4, 5 bases each?), but most of it is not like that. And of course you have the train wreck that is sc2 PvP, and ZvZ is maybe even more volatile than in BW (worst matchup by far to watch). I could go on, but I will just point you to the simple fact that you don't ever need more than 3 mining bases in sc2 at any time because:
1. Not enough supply for army
2. Your income is already obscene.
That alone does not exactly encourage taking a far away 4th. I've seen a TvZ analysis thread floating around explaining that in greater detail.
We shall see if it progresses, but currently it is quite undeniable that sc2 has a very cramped, frenetic pace of battle that can end in 5 to 10 seconds, instead of the sprawling epic combat lines that BW had.
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No more reason to watch WCG. And life goes on.
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Ya this seems fine. BW is great and all but the only people who would show up would be far worse than usual since all the good foreigners stopped playing. Koreans would look even more unstoppable than usual.
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true, there are no top foreigners left in broodwar, broodwar in wcg will only result in top3 koreans
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 08 2011 16:09 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 16:06 shadymmj wrote:
That's a case of both players wanting to play a macro game. Anyway, the situation at very high level play is improving, but over here in high diamond I still mostly 2-base if not 1. Surely you agree that there has been a lot of complaints about 1 basing, 2 basing, etc. since retail, whether or not due to the maps, these issues should have been rectified a lot sooner.
I recall Mr. Terrible Damage calling the 2 rax all in "rubbish" only like a month ago. Y'know, that's not really true. What's garbage is that the game has been designed that way. I have been using it quite extensively in the past, so any strategy that has been getting me a lot of wins cannot possibly be rubbish. Blame the game. if good players can deal with it but bad players can't then it's the games fault? i suppose 4 pools and lurker drop rushes made brood war a highly imbalanced and dumb game? no it didn't. Besides SC2 will only get better. if there is one thing blizzard always seems to do with success, it's create expansions that drastically improve the game: Diablo 2 LoD, Starcraft BW Warcraft3 TFT ect.
I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums).
The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are
- lack of micro
- Ball gameplay.
Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces.
Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it.
I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135462
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471
Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved.
As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return.
The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game.
Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
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On March 08 2011 17:08 lungo wrote:
true, there are no top foreigners left in broodwar, broodwar in wcg will only result in top3 koreans
So you think starcraft2 would be different?
In my opinion this is good news, eventhough BW was most awesome game ever, it's time to move on!
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On March 08 2011 17:09 Kipsate wrote:I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums). The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are - lack of micro - Ball gameplay. Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces. Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it. I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135462http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved. As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return. The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game. Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends
so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with:
marines
tanks using dropships
reapers
banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult
HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first
stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost
godly forcefields
collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage.
roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach
brood lord move shot
infestor play often results in some crazy micro dances
2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place.
3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively.
4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games.
5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
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I personally hate SC2 but still think its a good move to remove BW from WCG. I mean there are no pro scen left for BW outside Korea. Who would the koreans play? The top from ICCUP. I mean sure that would be epic fun for those BW scrubs that never made it to the top before SC2 but do we really want to see JD win with 6lings over and over again or Flash just role everybody without even trying?
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On March 08 2011 15:35 maybenexttime wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2011 15:29 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 15:25 maybenexttime wrote:On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia... Okay, then add 12 years of tactical and RTS game refinement to the first group. But I still think there is a jaded perspective beyond that that is a contributing factor. There isn't. Otherwise explain to me why so many people here on TL liked Armies of Exigo so much? It certainly wasn't nostalgia, as the game was developed by a small Hungarian studio and had a fantasy setting. It just happened to have a largely BW-inspired gameplay (it also had many UI improvements sc2 has, but the developers made a better job than blizzard in making sure it doesn't affect the game too negatively).
I can't really speak to that personally because I don't think I was around TL at the time of Armies of Exigo. But if I had to guess, perhaps you answered your own question. It was an alternative option to BW without being too far from BW?
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On March 08 2011 17:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 17:09 Kipsate wrote:I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums). The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are - lack of micro - Ball gameplay. Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces. Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it. I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135462http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved. As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return. The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game. Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2. ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with: marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage. roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach brood lord move shotinfestor play often results in some crazy micro dances 2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place. 3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively. 4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games. 5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
I love watching both BW and SC2, but really? There's a reason why no one bothers doing half of the things you've mentioned. Might as well list viking drops and call that strategical micro.
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On March 08 2011 18:08 Daozzt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 17:50 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 08 2011 17:09 Kipsate wrote:I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums). The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are - lack of micro - Ball gameplay. Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces. Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it. I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135462http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved. As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return. The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game. Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2. ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with: marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage. roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach brood lord move shotinfestor play often results in some crazy micro dances 2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place. 3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively. 4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games. 5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot. I love watching both BW and SC2, but really? There's a reason why no one bothers doing half of the things you've mentioned. Might as well list viking drops and call that strategical micro.
And I would not call casting a spell with smartcast micro (I can't help laughing when I hear INCREDIBLE STORMS by a sc2 caster). Well, a-move is micro too I guess.
I'm waiting for a sc2 incredible micro play topo laugh a bit.
And sc2 best macro game remind me a bit of standart late game PvP between average tosses, I'll have to agree, that is a progress.
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I dont really care. Last years they almost didnt stream anything. Id like to see WCG and even try to qualify, but wcg is really getting weak.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 08 2011 17:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 17:09 Kipsate wrote:I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums). The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are - lack of micro - Ball gameplay. Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces. Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it. I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135462http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved. As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return. The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game. Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2. ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with: marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage. roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach brood lord move shot infestor play often results in some crazy micro dances 2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place. 3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively. 4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games. 5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
Have you ever seen Collosi warp prism being used effectivly(as In doing so much economic damage that it totally sets back the player)? Collosi warp prism is to much of a heavy investment to make it work properly. Not to mention that a unit such as the viking totally denies this typ of harassement(It has far superior range and does +armored to this paper plane)
Actually no, I have watched GSL and I still do it sometimes for funsies, There is no effective counter to Force field, Burrowed roaches is nice and all but does not change the fact that you get obliterated by Collosi during burrow, Ultralisks I agree, they break forcefields(1 thing that has changed). Infestors fungalling sentries?Unless you can get your infestors in range of sentries somehow without them being killed off by units with superior range(Infestors are hella squishie) then I dont see this happen AT ALL.
Banshees movement ill give you that, Reapers are the most simple units really, not to mention that apart from scouting purposes they are almost never used. A attack, hit and run is nothing impressive IMO.
There is some more stuff but I will write it down later if you want.
We should however refrain from derailing this thread, if you want you can PM me with your thoughts.
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Now, about bw vs sc2 competition that seems again where the thread has gone: I think the only way to know is to get people who played bw on a high competitive level and do so in sc2, and take their opinions.
I was averge icc and im averege diamond, so over all same level.
For me BW was better than sc2, but its 1 opinion.
There is a lot i agree with in mostly all posts, but i dont really think its even worth talking about it.
ILL play more broodwar, and while noone talls me im a retard for playing a old game, i wont call otehrs retards cus of playing a less interesting game :D.
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As much as people who just love starcraft will be dissapointed...the casual esports viewer is much more likely to tune into sc2 games over sc1. The out dated graphics alone would turn away the mor casual viewers. Not to mention support for BW as far as future changes goes is pretty much dead. It's only logical to progress to the next game in the series especially with sc2's massive popularity world wide.
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removing BW from WCG was a logical and right choice, as soon as money being pumped into SC2 and only SC2, ppl will come and play it. BW is going to be Korean-only video game, that is popular among the old-believers, but, hell it always was!
I don't like SC2 and do not watch it, so for me it doesn't change that much, no korean WCG is a sad thing but I guess there are plenty of kids willing to push the buttons in a colorful and dynamic game.
As if anyone cares, but I feel like I want to say it. I don't like SC2, because it is sodden with that contemporary video-games spirit of easiness and extreme user-friendliness, where all games turn into some kind of sweet cream-soup suitable for everyone. This is a trend that plagues all modern gaming industry nowadays. Be highly accessible, easy, less difficulty and ambiguity, be more straightforward. (reminds me of this song "a pig, in a cage, on antibiotics") I guess every intelligent person understands, that its all about market and money. Thats why I still play fallout 1,2 and other vintage games, because they seem more real for me, more challenging and so - more honest. This is the greatest difference between SC2 and BW, honesty, its not about pretty graphics or gameplay, its about what do you believe in.
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There is one thing you cant argue with no matter what: in broodwar girls came to watch the games and screamed as when seeing some singer coming out from an airplane, in sc2,.... quite silent :D
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EPT
