On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
An out-of-date and unchanging old game like BW has been up and running strongly for 10 years in a country that thrives on continuous rapid changes and a superficial society. That is something special, something no other games (except maybe cs) has shown, because BW isnt measured by such superficial aspects, but something more meaningful that somehow appeals to the audience.
Nowadays, korean mainstream music is all about pretty girls rather than talent. Who would have thought that an old window 95 game would still be alive in a place like that? I really hope it remains strong.
i dont get the cs:s comparison. cs:s isn't a whole new game. sc2 is. cs:s can be considered a graphical update with major patch-like engine/balance changes, but nothing fundamental really changed. bw->sc2, now, that's a different story.
that said, i know which is the better e-sport right now on the global scene, but i also know which of the 2 is fundamentally the better game. shame they chose the former. last wcg FvJ was epic! EPIC!!! i'll gladly take a temp ban if the sc2 wcg produces any games close to that scale and excitement.
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
this is completely wrong, BW sucked to watch as a non playing spectator until 2005. and SC2 is great to watch now. but i couldn't convince any of the elitists in this thread that the earth is round because i'm a sc2 player and they inheirently ignore my arguments.
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
this is completely wrong, BW sucked to watch as a non playing spectator until 2005. and SC2 is great to watch now. but i couldn't convince any of the elitists in this thread that the earth is round because i'm a sc2 player and they inheirently ignore my arguments.
right, because you were watching BW before 2005 without prior knowledge of games after 2005. Of course, you can speak for all of the viewing audience that had thoroughly enjoyed watching BW before 2005, nevermind that it was 2005 and before that had some of the highest recorded live turnouts for games! ALL of those people (and girls!) had such indepth knowledge of the game yea?
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
this is completely wrong, BW sucked to watch as a non playing spectator until 2005. and SC2 is great to watch now. but i couldn't convince any of the elitists in this thread that the earth is round because i'm a sc2 player and they inheirently ignore my arguments.
Its hard for "us elitests" to take your argument seriusly with such blanket statements. Obviously people have enjoyed watching both games from the begining.
Just look at the size of the croud. Any of the pre 2005 osl/msl finals will do, but I like this one from 2002
This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
i'm in the first group but i like sc2 a little bit better because i played sc2 and not so much BW (i played vanilla and then quit and started watching BW games in 03.
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
Okay, then add 12 years of tactical and RTS game refinement to the first group. But I still think there is a jaded perspective beyond that that is a contributing factor.
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
Okay, then add 12 years of tactical and RTS game refinement to the first group. But I still think there is a jaded perspective beyond that that is a contributing factor.
There isn't. Otherwise explain to me why so many people here on TL liked Armies of Exigo so much? It certainly wasn't nostalgia, as the game was developed by a small Hungarian studio and had a fantasy setting. It just happened to have a largely BW-inspired gameplay (it also had many UI improvements sc2 has, but the developers made a better job than blizzard in making sure it doesn't affect the game too negatively).
Its a real shame. I always thought WCG's biggest event was BW.
Correct me if I I'm wrong, but wasn't there a post on TL about how Samsung (one of WCG's biggest sponsors) was threatening to drop their funding if WCG didn't pull out their Blizzard sponsors since they (samsung) was worried about the lawsuits against Kespa and co.
It's kinda pointless to argue that sc2's graphics are better than BW. Of course it is. People who like BW aren't blind fanboys waving their manifesto.
It's more like, is the improvement in graphics enough to make up for the deterioration in gameplay? Who designed sc2, anyway? Mr. Terrible Damage has some explaining to do. You host an open beta for 6 months, notice that everyone is 1-basing and cheesing, and then in retail it has still been the same thing. Balance is another issue; the fact is that the core gameplay is just not what most BW people appreciate: big bases, many expos, huge battles, high skill ceiling.
On March 08 2011 15:50 shadymmj wrote: It's kinda pointless to argue that sc2's graphics are better than BW. Of course it is. People who like BW aren't blind fanboys waving their manifesto.
It's more like, is the improvement in graphics enough to make up for the deterioration in gameplay? Who designed sc2, anyway? Mr. Terrible Damage has some explaining to do. You host an open beta for 6 months, notice that everyone is 1-basing and cheesing, and then in retail it has still been the same thing. Balance is another issue; the fact is that the core gameplay is just not what most BW people appreciate: big bases, many expos, huge battles, high skill ceiling.
the players who are only 1 basing and cheesing are plummeting out of tournaments faster than zergbong did in BW.
often youu see 4 base vs 4 base and upwards in sc2 now. similar to BW.
hell we had a GSL game where it was 3 base to 2 base before spawning pool and rax were complete and that was completely reasonable to see again.
You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
That's a case of both players wanting to play a macro game. Anyway, the situation at very high level play is improving, but over here in high diamond I still mostly 2-base if not 1. Surely you agree that there has been a lot of complaints about 1 basing, 2 basing, etc. since retail, whether or not due to the maps, these issues should have been rectified a lot sooner.
I recall Mr. Terrible Damage calling the 2 rax all in "rubbish" only like a month ago. Y'know, that's not really true. What's garbage is that the game has been designed that way. I have been using it quite extensively in the past, so any strategy that has been getting me a lot of wins cannot possibly be rubbish. Blame the game.
On March 08 2011 16:06 shadymmj wrote: That's a case of both players wanting to play a macro game. Anyway, the situation at very high level play is improving, but over here in high diamond I still mostly 2-base if not 1. Surely you agree that there has been a lot of complaints about 1 basing, 2 basing, etc. since retail, whether or not due to the maps, these issues should have been rectified a lot sooner.
I recall Mr. Terrible Damage calling the 2 rax all in "rubbish" only like a month ago. Y'know, that's not really true. What's garbage is that the game has been designed that way. I have been using it quite extensively in the past, so any strategy that has been getting me a lot of wins cannot possibly be rubbish. Blame the game.
if good players can deal with it but bad players can't then it's the games fault?
i suppose 4 pools and lurker drop rushes made brood war a highly imbalanced and dumb game?
no it didn't.
Besides SC2 will only get better. if there is one thing blizzard always seems to do with success, it's create expansions that drastically improve the game:
EPT
